Show Notes
jess g sick enough video and outro
[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Welcome back to Late Open Podcast. My online course Pathways to Peace, Mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living is open for ongoing enrollment, which means you can start it at any time and do it at your own pace whenever works for your schedule.
[00:00:15] Charna Cassell: As for the coursework, you'll receive four weeks worth of daily videos where I teach you how to understand your nervous system and reactions, how to think more clearly and gain perspective. How to translate the ways your body communicates through physical sensations. How to identify emotions, where they come from, and what they're telling you.
[00:00:35] Charna Cassell: How to discover why you react in ways that produce shame and learn tools to manage these reactions. How to reduce your anxiety and destructive impulses. And how to diminish self hatred when you're not your best self. You can sign up for weekly group coaching where I offer you direct support and answer your questions and you get connected to a community of like minded people.
[00:00:57] Charna Cassell: If you want to learn more before then, and I hope you do, You can go to my course page. It's courses dot charna cael. That's C-H-A-R-N-A-C-A-S-S-E-L l.com for more information.
[00:01:14] Learn how to live embodied If it's about to unwind Uncover new tools and start healing Leave trauma and tension behind Isn't it great laid open Let all your desires come true How can you live laid open Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new.
[00:02:00] Charna Cassell: welcome
[00:02:00] Charna Cassell: back to LaidOPEN podcast. I'm your host
[00:02:02] Charna Cassell: Charna Cassell.
[00:02:03] Charna Cassell: And my guest today is Jessica Graham, an author, actor, meditation teacher and trauma resolution guide, would you say?
[00:02:17] Jessica Graham: A guide specialist. , you know, I'm certified in a variety of modalities and I do brain spotting. So, yeah.
[00:02:25] Charna Cassell: And today we're going to get to discuss Jess's most recent book, Being Sick Enough. Thank you so much for being here. It's good to see you again.
[00:02:37] Jessica Graham: So good to see you as always. Thanks for having me,
[00:02:40] Charna Cassell: you know, and I was thinking, because there's so much heavy material that we might touch on. I was thinking it would be nice to start with something that was more resourcing and to remind the listeners, , You know, to remember that there are things internally and externally that you can use as resources, whether it's something that feels good in your body, Jess has their dog on their lap right now, I have my dog next to me, , and so if there's something, a place that feels good to recall, you can think about that now and notice how it feels in your body.
[00:03:22] Charna Cassell: And so something that maybe has you exhale a little bit. Where things feel a little softer, warmer, maybe it's just laying out in the sun,
[00:03:39] Charna Cassell: or sitting next to somebody that you feel cared for by. And so at any point you can pause the recording, or what you're listening to, and you can take a moment for yourself and, and use that touch point. So hi Jess.
[00:04:00] Jessica Graham: Hi. What a lovely way to begin, thank you.
[00:04:04] Charna Cassell: Yeah. You know, um, first of all, your book is just really beautiful.
[00:04:09] Charna Cassell: You are, you are lovely. writer, so visceral and also super intense, right? I mean, there's so much,, so much intense description of being in a body where there's suffering, where there's pain, emotional and physical pain. And so, you know, I, I just, the first thing that I was thinking Thinking about when I wanted to talk to you about your, about your book, was your writing process in terms of how did you take care of your physical body and your heart while writing this book?
[00:04:49] Charna Cassell: What were the, what were the things that you did to perhaps create a little more space?
[00:04:53] Jessica Graham: Well the first thing is I didn't write the book until I was ready to write the book. I first thought about this book, in I think 2017, um, that this might be the next book. And I even mentioned it to the publisher that I work with North Atlantic books.
[00:05:13] Jessica Graham: And they're like, that sounds really good. Like a good option. , but you know, I, it was a good number of years before I actually was like, I'm ready to write it. , there were a lot of changes that needed to happen in my life and in my nervous system and in my mind and in my understanding of myself, , before I was ready to write it.
[00:05:36] Jessica Graham: share these stories, , let alone feel, uh, , resourceful doing so. Then the actual process. I was given a pretty short amount of time to write this book. I was given about three months and, um, that was intense. And, uh,
[00:05:56] Jessica Graham: yeah. I kept my client roster very light. I also didn't write on days that I saw clients. , I only wrote. On days that I could dedicate fully to the writing and resting. Uh, so a lot of my writing took place one or two days a week. I only see clients three to four days, but I have other things to do too in my life.
[00:06:26] Jessica Graham: Um, so it was just a few days a week I have a lot of like coziness in my life. You know, I have my little dog. I have a lot of really cozy, uh, clothes and soft blankets. And I created cozy areas to sit in. , I also used the method that I like is to work for 50 minutes and then to take a break for 10 and then work for 50 and then take a break for 10.
[00:06:52] Jessica Graham: And that structure, um, really just support, it supports me. So I just. use a timer. And, um, that's the same thing I did with the first book. And, and then sometimes I would find, no, I'm really, I'm feeling good. I want to keep going and I would keep going, but, , just depended on what I was working on. And I will say that regardless of being in therapy and using my meditation practice and all the, you know, All the things, right?
[00:07:17] Jessica Graham: All the different things we do to care for our bodies and our minds and our hearts and spirits, uh, it was still really rough. , I dealt with a lot of flare ups of physical pain, , there was anxiety that arose, , there was, it kind of just like free floating. There was, depression that arose and I, you know, worked with it using all the tools.
[00:07:43] Jessica Graham: But then what happened is, , the book needed a reworking. There was, some, just like some miscommunication about exactly what the book was going to be. And so it had to, there was then like a pause where I was like, I'm taking a pause and then let's come back. And we came back and it's, the book didn't.
[00:08:03] Jessica Graham: It just got better. Like it didn't change the shape of it. , really well, the shape changed a lot, but the content didn't necessarily change a lot, but I did have to go back into all of the content. And so it wasn't just editing. It was. It was rewriting, it was reworking, it was reconfiguring the shape, , which pieces would be included at creating new pieces, , to fill in, , spaces that needed to be filled in.
[00:08:29] Jessica Graham: And so, once again, I kind of went through the same process, , so when I was done writing, I was like, very happy to be done. And then there was the audio book. And recording the audio book. And that was its own, it was like going, going, kind of going through it a third time. and luckily, you know, that was a one week process.
[00:08:53] Jessica Graham: So it was like, I'm like, I took every, took everything else off of my schedule for like a week and a half and, and did that and basically processed each essay. or poem afterwards, just cried and did the things I needed to do and then went and, and read the rest. So I won't say that it was easy. I won't say I did it perfectly, but I think I did it as well as I could at the place that I am in my journey.
[00:09:24] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Wow. Well, what's interesting is the, you know, the writing for 50 take a 10 minute break writing and then the same thing that you just described. You're like, read the essay. Allow myself to cry and be with it. There's something so much more visceral when you're speaking the words. out loud and you're embodying and you're, you know, speaking the unspoken often, things that you kept to yourself that were silent or secret or you feel things so much more when you perform them or speak them out loud.
[00:09:57] Jessica Graham: Yeah, definitely.
[00:09:59] Charna Cassell: I was really feeling you. I listened, I read your book, I read the book, but I also listened to the audio and it's, uh, yeah, it's very visceral when you're listening.
[00:10:08] Jessica Graham: Yeah, I can imagine it'd be a, it'd kind of be a tough, tough one to listen to an audio. I feel like, like just because of the intensity to actually have it going into your ears, though, I like that.
[00:10:23] Jessica Graham: I like that. Like I, I I'll listen to intense. audio book wise, but I'm just kind of stepping outside of, outside of myself and being like, Oh, what would it be like to listen to this book? , I recommend it. I read it.
[00:10:37] Charna Cassell: You have a, you have a great voice and, um, and I, and just because we've been kind of speaking around it and brought and broad brush strokes, it's, it's a really, , potent, portrait of CPTSD and, , how, you know, the, the impact, the long term impact and fallout regarding suicidality, addiction, disordered eating, relationships and what those end up looking like and long term, you know, the impact of, of, , CPTSD on your health.
[00:11:12] Charna Cassell: Yeah, and anything else you would add?
[00:11:14] Jessica Graham: no, that's it. I mean, you, you, you got it. Yeah. I think the one, there's the neurodivergent piece, there are a couple essays about that and it's sprinkled in, which, you know, There's lots to say as far as like neurodivergence, trauma, like all, like how all of that, you know, works together.
[00:11:32] Jessica Graham: But, , I know for me being undiagnosed autistic, my whole life has, was traumatic, you know, it's traumatic. And so there is that element, but I think your description is, I was listening to, I was like, Ooh, I want to actually. Like remember exactly how you said it because that's a really good elevator pitch for my book.
[00:11:51] Charna Cassell: Yeah. I mean, there's so much, there's so much. And, and, , for a very long time, the other pieces in terms of ADHD, , in working with trauma, I see so much of the, the hypervigilance and the, the tracking piece. It's, it's, it's like, okay, so sometimes things are organic for people, meaning. That's, that's how their brain is.
[00:12:13] Charna Cassell: And then it's like, it's such a chicken or egg thing of like what came first and what shapes us. And, and I, I kind of, in my mind's eye, I have an aerial view of. A bunch of different rivers, you know, and how they like come together and then they come apart and they, you know, and, one of the things that, um, I think is really important and I also came to this knowledge late in life, , after dealing with lifetime of, of physical ailments is the ACE score.
[00:12:42] Charna Cassell: The ACE research, right? Adverse childhood experiences and how much that illuminated for you, if you could speak to that.
[00:12:52] Jessica Graham: Yeah, absolutely. So I found out about the ACE survey, , right around the time that I was, in, in the process of writing or had finished writing my first book and I'd had a pretty significant health crisis, had ended up in the hospital for a week and was starting to get diagnosed with things.
[00:13:16] Jessica Graham: Cause I had always held off on that because I was like, what are they going to do? I was like, of course I have this, this, and this, what are they going to do about it? And that was kind of my mentality at the time. I've since found that. Diagnosis for me, personally, whether it's mental health diagnosis or physical health diagnosis has has been very helpful and very transformative.
[00:13:37] Jessica Graham: A good diagnosis, right? The right diagnosis is is really powerful for me. So I had, I was in that space and I'd had like, I was having some significant work challenges and I've reached out to somebody, , to talk about that. And she's like, actually, I think you need to read this book, Childhood Disrupted, instead of worrying about this work.
[00:14:01] Jessica Graham: Um, shout out to Christine Roselle for making that suggestion because I read that book and, I saw myself in it so deeply. It's, and it's all about how. , adverse childhood experiences impact your health and your mental health. And the ACE survey, it goes through, you know, a list of, I'm blanking on how many questions it is right now, but, , 10, yeah.
[00:14:22] Jessica Graham: Um, and I think it could be updated. I think there's a number of things that could be added to that, such as are you part of a historically, , underserved community? , Are you neurodivergent, et cetera, et cetera. But nonetheless, , it, it goes through thing questions such as, you know, was there physical abuse in your household that you witnessed?
[00:14:43] Jessica Graham: Was there physical abuse that you experienced? Was there sexual abuse? , what were one of your parents, , in prison or jail, , things along these lines. And, I read through those questions. as well as reading that book and I was like, well, damn, cause after four, after just four of these ACEs, these adverse childhood experiences, you are, , in a position to be much more likely for a whole host of illnesses and for addiction and for mental health stuff.
[00:15:12] Jessica Graham: And I have seven. And so it was like, it's just something clicked and it it actually really reduced some of the shame and self blame and sort of like hyper individualistic capitalistic way of thinking about life and oneself and i recognize like oh it's not It's not my fault. Like, kind of like that, uh, uh, what is it?
[00:15:39] Jessica Graham: Dead Poets, Dead Poets Society, I think, with Robin Williams. Oh, no, no, it's, uh, Good Will Hunting, Good Will Hunting, where he's like, it's not your fault. It was, like, very much one of those moments of just, like, wow. , and it's not my parents fault. And it's not their parents fault. I mean, sometimes I think part of the healing process is to let yourself blame and be angry at the people that harmed you.
[00:16:00] Jessica Graham: But once you understand, , how trauma works, , You can't hang out there for very long because You can just see the trajectory, like where does it begin,
[00:16:14] Jessica Graham: right?
[00:16:14] Charna Cassell: Well, and the inflammation, right? Once you start to see the connection between your acidic thoughts and inflammation in the body, And it's really hard if we don't move forward and have some understanding of how trauma occurs, that people are doing not to excuse anything, right?
[00:16:38] Charna Cassell: I mean, I've definitely spent plenty of, you know, sessions being really angry, hitting things, and crying a lot, and screaming, and all the things, all the catharsis. , Talking directly to my parents, et cetera, and the level of inflammation that you can chronically live with and the connection to autoimmune conditions, if you spend most of your, if you can't let those things go for yourself, like for, for your own, for your own freedom, not necessarily to forgive and forget.
[00:17:11] Jessica Graham: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's, , hell, I find that it's helpful in concentrated doses with a practitioner to work through the layers of that, of, of blame and anger that arise. Right. Cause that's part of the journey. , it, you don't just feel angry once and then you're done. You don't just think what the hell, how did you do to me once?
[00:17:39] Jessica Graham: And then you're done in the safe container of. with a practitioner. Like for me, I had this experience a couple of years ago where, , I was in a session with a trauma practitioner and we went into this whole, I ended up going to this whole vision of like being a baby and calling on an assassin. And there was this like androgynous, like really cool assassin that came in and killed everyone.
[00:18:10] Jessica Graham: Like literally annihilated every adult that ever came in contact with me, even the ones that weren't that bad. Or the ones, even, even the ones that were good. It's like it, that ended up like being what, what that baby needed in order to feel safe. And it was, yeah. It's intense. , and of course I don't want, you know, everyone to be killed, but like that, that, that process was so healing to let that level of rage and anger be expressed for that little, little baby that, you know, just needed protection.
[00:18:43] Charna Cassell: Well, and it, and it takes so much work to even get to the point where you could acknowledge that that baby needed it. and wanted that protection and then to verbalize it. I don't know if you, if there was a practitioner you were inciting that in, right, who was acting that out. And, and I do similar work with clients where I'm just like, whatever you can imagine, let's enact that.
[00:19:05] Charna Cassell: Like, that's what I, and, and I know how hard it is, , to allow yourself to even have a need. Right? Because then you have to get through that initial denial of like and dissociation from the need in order to even speak it into a space for yourself as well as in front of be vulnerable and name it. Yeah, somebody else.
[00:19:29] Jessica Graham: Yeah, that's huge. I mean, it's what a, what an honor to get to witness people go through that process. Right. And I, and, and, and, you know, I know this view and of me, like, we're people who continue our, our work. And it's so cool because when like going through that, like, assassin experience, I can, you know, Tell someone, I can be like, when they're scared to be like angry, like, well, this is one of the, or they feel ashamed that they're having these kinds of thoughts.
[00:19:57] Jessica Graham: I'm like, well, this, I had this. And then it gives them permission, , to go into those places. So, you know, it's why it's so important for us practitioners to continue to appeal. The onion, so to speak.
[00:20:08] Charna Cassell: Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think we have, we do have a similar, there was a lot in your book that I resonated with, a lot of parts of it.
[00:20:17] Charna Cassell: And then also a similar transparency. And it's interesting because you're going through this whole experience around embracing and acknowledging your neurodivergence. And there's an unmasking process you're going through. And yet my experience of you, and maybe I've met you in that place where there's a level of transparency that I think is so useful for my clients.
[00:20:40] Charna Cassell: And I, and I measure it. I'm not as transparent with everyone, but I find that leveling the playing field, it helps with the power dynamic. And gives people just like, here's an example of what it could be.
[00:20:53] Jessica Graham: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And with working with complex PTSD, it's so individualized, right? Like, for some, the container needs to be such that you You don't say a thing about yourself, right?
[00:21:09] Jessica Graham: and then some it's like they, the, the client needs to feel, , there, there's like an attachment, , wound healing that can happen through the, through a different kind of, of, of, uh, interaction. So, yeah,
[00:21:24] Charna Cassell: it's absolutely. But I'm curious about that, about the transparency and, and, you know, where, because I've met you, it's been a couple of years now, and Even in this moment with me, do you feel like you have to have a professional kind of performance face on or, and like kind of get through it or?
[00:21:47] Jessica Graham: I love that question. , no. , I was just noticing like that. I'm like, I'm like tired. I'm in a flare up this, my city's on fire. Like there's all this stuff going on. , And. I also feel like really calm and grounded right now. And so this is how I'm showing up in this moment. I did a podcast interview yesterday where I was, I think in a very different energetic space.
[00:22:18] Jessica Graham: And so just giving myself permission to be in whatever space I'm in as part of the process. also I know you to, to some degree, like I, I, There's like a kindred thing. And so like, I feel like very settled in with you. , but yes, I would say this unmasking process is really a trip. It's wild. , when you met me, I had already been diagnosed with ADHD.
[00:22:45] Jessica Graham: , and the way that the autism diagnosis came about was that, , I've done so many years of trauma work and there were certain things that weren't shifting at intersections of health and, , mental health. And I was like, just got curious and ended up, you know, doing this. One thing led to another and I ended up in the six week assessment.
[00:23:09] Jessica Graham: getting the diagnosis was like, allowed me to put down this effort that I didn't even necessarily know was there because it was like, Oh, there's just certain things that are just going to be different for me. And it's about accommodations, not about fixing it. And that was huge. But yeah, like I've performed my whole life in one way or another in basically, you know, every aspect of life.
[00:23:36] Charna Cassell: Well, it, it makes me think of the parentified child, you know, being a, if people don't know when someone is, when a kid is surrogated, they're used as the emotional support doesn't have to necessarily be like a, it's a different form of incest in a way.
[00:23:54] Jessica Graham: Oh yeah, emotional
[00:23:55] Jessica Graham: incest.
[00:23:55] Charna Cassell: And there's an energetic need that can live in the body the same way that sexual trauma does.
[00:24:03] Charna Cassell: , and absolutely. So it has me think about the performance of having to perform that role for your father. And if you want to. Yeah, about it.
[00:24:14] Jessica Graham: Yeah, I mean, my dad's an interest. It's an interesting one because He was my closest and most intimate relationship and someone I felt most at home with and most myself with.
[00:24:27] Jessica Graham: And also he was someone that I had to step into a lot of inappropriate roles with from a pretty early age. , A lot of caretaking and. A lot of what, you know, at 14, I was officially evidently old enough to be his drinking buddy. So that's when I started drinking with him and he, he wasn't doing drugs, but I would do drugs around him.
[00:24:55] Jessica Graham: We. I mean, it was not a father daughter relationship in that way. , and there's actually a, I should find this. , I have all my journals packed in my car right now because. I like left LA and didn't know if my, my place is still there. So that's cool. But should find that journal. because there's this, a few pages that jump out of all the sort of poetic code I was using at the time, because I didn't want to speak directly, evidently directly to what was happening, but there's these few pages that jump out and there's actually.
[00:25:31] Jessica Graham: tears on the pages, like stain, tear stain. And I believe I was quite drunk when I wrote this, but I'm just really clearly stating, , I can never be more important than alcohol to my dad. He'll never be able to love me as much as he loves alcohol. And so I need to be like him and I need to. I need to drink like him and I need to also be an alcoholic so that I can get, , at least some, some kind of connection.
[00:26:00] Jessica Graham: Yeah, exactly. yeah, , I mean that was definitely becoming, becoming a, a thing. A teenage alcoholic definitely had something to do with wanting to be able to perform in a certain way so that he, I could have the love. You know, the cool thing is though, when I did get sober at 27, he was really, , really supportive of it and really celebratory of it.
[00:26:26] Charna Cassell: Which was a beautiful part in your book, you know, because so often parents, without realizing they're doing it, they, they don't want you to grow beyond them, because they're afraid that connection will be lost and you don't want to grow beyond them because you're afraid that connection will be lost.
[00:26:43] Charna Cassell: You know,
[00:26:43] Charna Cassell: so we kind of stop unless we.
[00:26:45] Charna Cassell: Sometimes there has to be a disconnect and a separation from family in order to keep healing. And, I cheered for your dad in that moment. I was like, okay, buddy. There was a lot of, you know, even though there was a lot of graphic description of mom and dad, I also could really feel how much, I mean, I know how much work you've done.
[00:27:06] Charna Cassell: And there was, , there was a lot of compassion.
[00:27:10] Jessica Graham: Hmm.
[00:27:11] Charna Cassell: You know, in the way that you, you, you wrote about them. Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, it doesn't mean you don't, and again, I keep thinking about your experience because I've, I've lived this as well and reading and doing monologue, like autobiographical monologue, , how much more piercing it is when you hear yourself say things because you have to accept a level of truth to them.
[00:27:36] Charna Cassell: And this idea that you were writing in code. because not only it was like you couldn't for yourself kind of write it out, write the truth out, but also for in case other people were to read it. But then how much rarer and realer it became when you are writing it much more directly for our consumption.
[00:27:56] Jessica Graham: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's really interesting because you can, if you go to my journals, you can see, like, the moment it changed. It was like, age 14 for me, that year, a lot of stuff happened. Like, a lot, , happened. And that's when my writing went from, here's what happened today, to, I am in the bathtub, the trees are growing through the, the, the drain, the rain comes down.
[00:28:26] Jessica Graham: I see you. We are love. I am afraid. Like, it's just like, it doesn't really make sense.
[00:28:32] Charna Cassell: Well, this, that disjointed trauma brain, right? I mean that, that's the thing. It's like, okay, so what's ADHD? What's trauma? What's fragmentation? What's not being able to process that emotion because it was so overwhelming?
[00:28:44] Charna Cassell: Like it all kind of, I picture, um, I picture plates shifting, like it's like a slow motion earthquake that's constantly happening or something.
[00:28:57] Jessica Graham: Yeah. That's a good way to put it.
[00:28:58] Charna Cassell: Wow.
[00:28:59] Jessica Graham: I actually wanted to comment on something that you said about family and taking, you know, distance from family because I think, I don't think I've shared this yet since writing the book and it's that one of the ways that writing this book was possible, one of the reasons it was possible is because A, I got out of, an abusive relationship, , which I had to get out of before I could actually heal enough to write this book.
[00:29:25] Jessica Graham: , but also that led to me, , going basically no contact with my mother for a few years. And, , I'd never intent, I'd never intentionally done that in that way. , there have definitely been times we were very estranged and. I was honest about, about it and why. And, , we're in touch again. And, it's really, it's, it's different.
[00:29:49] Jessica Graham: It's different. , and even though, you know, she knows what my book's about, and I've told her some of what's in there, , and I don't know that she'll read it, on the day of the release, She sent me a text, , saying your book is an, is the number one release in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue on Amazon.
[00:30:11] Jessica Graham: Woohoo. So for her to be able to celebrate it and, and celebrate me, it was a, it was a big deal. And, , so that it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you go no contact and you never go back and that's what needs to happen in some cases, but I feel, feel really grateful that, , I got to write this and process so much of it and then share these secrets because by sharing them, , I'm actually getting a new experience with, with my mother.
[00:30:41] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Yeah, it was one of my questions. I'm glad you spoke to it. , and have your siblings read it? ,
[00:30:47] Jessica Graham: they are currently reading it. , and I, I offered for them to read it like ahead of time, but. They both have a lot going on in their lives. And they were like, we'll wait until it comes. And so they're, yeah, they're currently reading it.
[00:31:00] Jessica Graham: , they have, they've read bits and pieces. They've read a few poems and, , you know, they've, we are very open with each other. So. It's actually interesting because it's opened up some conversations. Like for example, I don't think this is in the book, but when I was 14, the house I lived in, , there was a big house fire and I was in it , we had to escape and then the neighbors, , we tried to save them and me and my mom, we couldn't, and they died.
[00:31:27] Jessica Graham: so this came up in conversation with my sister in regard to like the book and the fires in LA, and we realized we'd never really talked about our experiences of it and what we each remembered. And so I think also what this book offers for me and my sisters is like, and my brother possibly as well, , is to have some conversations that, Are just, it's not that we didn't have them on purpose.
[00:31:52] Jessica Graham: It's just like, yeah, we all live through that. Like, okay, like, so it'll give us an opportunity to process together a little bit and share the different ways in which our childhood impacted us, at that time versus where we are now,
[00:32:06] Charna Cassell: right? Well, and again, having that, that space and distance to be able to kind of.
[00:32:13] Charna Cassell: So the squares together to kind of create a cohesive image of what it was and it's like, Oh, but of course, you're different people having different experiences and different ages developmentally, all the things that are going to impact how you see something, but it's, it's like the, one of the things I think that's tricky with memoir that you come to terms with or make peace with is like, this was my emotional truth.
[00:32:40] Charna Cassell: Mom might argue with something, sister might argue with something, and then this was, this was your emotional truth.
[00:32:45] Jessica Graham: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, memory is memory. It's like, I can, I'm, this is written as remembered, right? Like it's like, doesn't, doesn't necessarily mean that every bit of it is perfectly accurate because these things happened four decades ago, some of them, you know what I mean?
[00:33:02] Jessica Graham: So it's like, yeah.
[00:33:03] Charna Cassell: So one of the things that I really liked about when, you know, you talked about the ace, uh, survey and all the things that contribute to autoimmune and ailments, but also what your resources were. I really loved the naming of all the different moments and people and I think it's so important even when we have a sea of trauma to acknowledge and name the good.
[00:33:32] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Because those are those tiny little seeds of resource that can grow into bushes, you know, trees.
[00:33:37] Jessica Graham: Yeah, yeah, the positive childhood experiences, we have the ACEs and then we have the PCEs, and yeah, it's, it's how I've come to understand why I'm still here, it's like, because if it wasn't for those, I don't know how I would be.
[00:33:55] Jessica Graham: Like I don't, and there are people, or I wouldn't be here in this form. I certainly wouldn't be like sitting here having this conversation with you.
[00:34:02] Charna Cassell: Having written a book. I mean, and teachers, I just really need to shout out the teachers because those, those were my saviors,
[00:34:09] Jessica Graham: you know? Yeah. And, and for me, it's like, I was only in school two and a half years.
[00:34:16] Jessica Graham: So I was in this private school from half of fourth grade, fifth and sixth grade, which I think that school, the School Nurse Valley has everything to do with. My thriving today. , and then I went to like three months of public school. Um, , and so it's like, I'm like, Oh, just that, just that small amount of time made such a big difference.
[00:34:37] Jessica Graham: , Because I was really being seen, heard, celebrated, cared about, you know, there was curiosity in a, in a way that I really needed. So, yeah.
[00:34:48] Charna Cassell: Well, and it speaks to your, just what you came into this world with. Resilience is such a tricky word and such a tricky concept, you know, um, but the things that, the fact that your system was open to receiving and remembering those moments and those resources, right, is really, I'm, I'm grateful for that.
[00:35:10] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:12] Jessica Graham: And you know, in going through these stories, I, I did actually connect more than I ever had before with the positive childhood experiences with my parents as well. , I knew there were good things, you know, it's, and I, I could name them, but like, it was, it was really different to like sit and really be with all of this in that way.
[00:35:34] Jessica Graham: And to recognize there's so many. I mean, as simple as like,
[00:35:41] Jessica Graham: if you follow me on social media, you already know this about me. So it doesn't matter, but like, I am very much for Palestinian liberation. And I, and I have been since I was a teenager in the nineties that comes from my father, right? Like he taught me, he taught me that history and he taught, he taught me to look at that and think about it.
[00:36:00] Jessica Graham: And consider how I felt, like what, what I believed, , same thing with systemic racism. Like I learned about that as a little kid, like, which is a big deal actually for, for a white person. Um, And so like those things like have really shaped the kind of person I am, not to mention just like the, the art and the creativity and the music and the fun.
[00:36:25] Jessica Graham: Film like I was watching amazing films as a little kid and some of them may be inappropriate, but you know, yeah It's just like that the art and the creativity that both of my parents infused into my life Like it has everything to do with the kind of person that I am
[00:36:43] Charna Cassell: which Makes them really rich humans because you're a dynamic being No.
[00:36:51] Charna Cassell: Yeah. , I imagine that getting to revisit those things because so often we can, we have our inner critic and they can, you know, they're keeping us in line, they're keeping us safe by criticizing us in a variety of ways. And often that critical voice can be a parent's voice, right? A caretaker's voice.
[00:37:10] Charna Cassell: And so again, kind of the opposite of the ACEs, the, the, the positive, , yeah. picturing going through this process and, , how, how deeply healing it could be to them, be like, Oh, this actually, I love the parts of me that are like my parents. I just, I love myself even more.
[00:37:29] Jessica Graham: Yeah, actually, I have a cool like experience with that where this was years back.
[00:37:35] Jessica Graham: , but I remember like as, as a teenager and young adult, there'd be these moments where I'd feel like I, I'd feel like I looked like my mother. I'd be like, I'm making a face my mother would make, and it would make me really upset. Like I would be really bothered by it. , and at a certain point when I had done some level of healing.
[00:37:55] Jessica Graham: and understood self love more and all this sort of thing. , I, I started when I would have that feeling of, I look like my mother, my mother is inside of me or something like this. I would immediately go to, I love you. Um, you're, you're wonderful, whatever positive self talk. And it also cultivated more compassion for my mother through that.
[00:38:18] Jessica Graham: And that never happens anymore. I don't have that experience anymore, which is interesting, But by kind of training it in, it, it changed the way I saw myself and it, it changed how I thought of my mom.
[00:38:35] Charna Cassell: Hmm. I'm glad you got to have that experience and, and then you can kind of, again, it's like draw this line back to this present moment where you're like, oh, and I, and I'm back in contact with her. Mm-hmm . If I hadn't given myself the permission to have the space, if I hadn't gone through the process of dot, dot, dot, it's like they all.
[00:38:57] Charna Cassell: They all build on each other.
[00:38:59] Jessica Graham: Yeah, they do. And, and every, and again, like, I just think, you know, I'm grateful that that's my story. And I also totally get and understand and validate people that that's not their story because some, you know, some parents, you really, it's not, it really is not safe to ever be in contact with again, like it's not physically safe.
[00:39:17] Jessica Graham: Right. , and that's not my, that's not my experience. And so I just, you know, I honor and see those where, you know, the no contact has to stay in place.
[00:39:25] Charna Cassell: Yeah, you have to really be realistic about that. what you're looking at, right? I always, you know, any relationship, I'm like, okay, is there willingness, interest, and capacity to do the work for everyone to be cared for and take responsibility for their impact?
[00:39:44] Charna Cassell: And if that's not the case, you know, it's just not, not feasible. Yeah. I want to talk about pain, right? There's the emotional experience of pain and the physical experience of pain and, , one of the ways that I, I think about pain is that it's a messenger for how to be more present. , and that it's, it's like letting me know that I'm just, that I've been dissociating.
[00:40:14] Charna Cassell: Or I am dissociated, right? It's a re embodying. It's a coming back in after having had to not be in this physical body for so long for really important reasons. And so, I was curious about that for you. It's like, how do you hold your relationship to pain at this point and at different points along the way?
[00:40:35] Jessica Graham: Yeah, I mean, historically, , a lot of denial, , self medication, , destruction, , a lot of destruction with relationships and, , substances. , I was a little kid that was always having some kind of Pain or injury or illness. And I was also told like, you know, you're basically, you're being too sensitive.
[00:41:04] Jessica Graham: It didn't make sense to the people around me, adults or children around me, that like something could hurt for so long. Like if I hurt my arm, that it could hurt for like weeks. And, So there was a lot of denial outside and I don't think necessarily intentionally. So then that, you know, that just built up inside of me, but it also pain also became if I was in enough pain and it was obvious enough, then there is a certain kind of care and love and support I would receive.
[00:41:33] Jessica Graham: And so the relationship with pain was tricky because I didn't want to be in pain and I did want to be in pain. so. I think, you know, there was a moment with boyfriend I had years back where he just like looked at me and he's like, you're in pain all the time, aren't you? And I'm like,
[00:41:59] Jessica Graham: I didn't even really necessarily know how to comprehend it, but I was kind of like, well, yeah, but it's like normal. He's like, no, it's not, it's not normal to be in the amount of pain you seem to be in. , and that was a, that was definitely a defining moment. That was in my, I guess my late twenties. , I still took another.
[00:42:16] Jessica Graham: Not maybe not quite a decade, but a good chunk of time before I said out loud, I am chronically ill, I have chronic pain. , and definitely a while before I started treating it with anything other than meditation, , because that's the next thing I did. Like around that same time, I got really into meditation and grateful for that.
[00:42:35] Jessica Graham: , it completely changed my relationship to pain, , in ways that I'm, , very grateful for. But also, it helped me get a real, a real tricky way to bypass pain too. Because I could quantimize it to the point where something really painful could be pleasurable. Um, , where, or where I just like could, deconstruct it to just like waves of phenomena and connecting with everything.
[00:43:01] Jessica Graham: Like, it's like lovely, great, awesome. But. In some of those cases, it was a real bypass and a training and a re solidification of this, like, denial, self denial, , was sort of, I guess my asceticism, I can never say that word.
[00:43:19] Charna Cassell: It's such a hard word. Aestheticism? Is that right?
[00:43:23] Jessica Graham: Yes. Is
[00:43:24] Jessica Graham: that the word?
[00:43:24] Jessica Graham: Aestheticism?
[00:43:25] Charna Cassell: You know
[00:43:25] Charna Cassell: what? I, I have trouble with, I have, I have, I have trouble with this same word, so I'm not going to try.
[00:43:32] Jessica Graham: It's okay. We, we both know what we mean. That was my phase of that. And like, I would even increase pain during meditation to like, Purify consciousness through pain. , which again, I'm not putting that down, but I already had enough pain.
[00:43:48] Jessica Graham: Like I didn't really need to do that. You know? , and so because of the level of like equanimity with pain, like that, that's when I had. , a real health crisis and ended up in the hospital with my stomach bleeding and like really quite dangerous. , because I, it got that bad before I was like, no, no, wait a second.
[00:44:06] Jessica Graham: There actually is something wrong. I've got to go to the hospital.
[00:44:10] Charna Cassell: Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, so the, the dangers, so just kind of taking a moment and highlighting the dangers of trying to, there's being with. And there's, there's also more spiritual ways of dismissing and minimizing an experience and dissociating from it.
[00:44:29] Charna Cassell: And so, you know, we both, I think, are proponents of forms of meditation that don't mean you are disconnecting and dissociating from your body.
[00:44:38] Jessica Graham: That's right.
[00:44:39] Charna Cassell: I've, I've used meditation to go into the center of the pain, to go directly into the center and then it kind of dissolves and becomes pixelated and I've had these, and then I've Then the pain completely vanishes and it's profound and there's, it's like you need to have, you know, seven different wrenches, right?
[00:44:58] Charna Cassell: You don't just have one. You're like, okay, right now I'm going to be with this deep grief and I'm going to sob. And then there are other times where you interrupt and you're like, no, I'm going to get out of the mud and I'm going to stop doing that. I'm going to change my state. , but one of the things I really appreciate about you is your, , all the flavors of self acceptance.
[00:45:17] Charna Cassell: I feel like your book truly, I mean, even though it's called being sick enough, it's like self acceptance could be the colon, you know, , because there's, it's like each step of the way, there's, there's a kind of looking back and going, Oh yeah, that's what I needed to do then. And I built a certain muscle and now that doesn't work for me.
[00:45:38] Charna Cassell: And this is a different label now. And you know what, I'm actually really pro taking pharmaceuticals at this point. They really make a difference in my life, you know? And, and so my question for you is then the other side, as I, cause I really get, and I used to be this way, very tough and wouldn't cry. And then the process of tenderizing.
[00:45:59] Charna Cassell: And being gentle with yourself. Can you speak to what that's been like for you and what were some essential components of gaining that capacity?
[00:46:07] Jessica Graham: Yeah. Tenderization. I love, I love, I love putting it that way. , Yeah, I mean, in some ways I was forced, you know, it was like I was, I pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed until I couldn't push anymore until I couldn't get up.
[00:46:22] Jessica Graham: Um, I don't necessarily suggest that method for me. That's what I had to do. And so like it, yeah, I got to this place where I was so limited in my capacity as far as even leaving the house that. There was no choice but to get soft and gentle and kind, , in ways that I, in ways that I hadn't yet. , you know, and, you know, before that, , you know, somatic experiencing, the somatic trauma resolution stuff was, was really, , supportive of this and informative of this because it's so slow.
[00:46:55] Jessica Graham: And I was used to like, let's go fast, let's go hard, let's power through this. , so my experiencing is so slow and actually it's fast because it's slow. And that's what I found. I was like, wow, this actually, it resolves and heals on such a deeper level than these other things I was doing. , and so that was the beginning of that softening and then, yeah, being, being in a body that can't do what I want it to do, what I wanted it to do.
[00:47:22] Jessica Graham: And, sort of the consequences of many years of pushing myself was its own tenderization process. , hitting certain places in my, in my spiritual practice where there was just a kind of disillusionment that goes beyond disillusionment. It was just very intense. Like that also, I had to, it had to just be like this moment.
[00:47:49] Jessica Graham: You are okay. And loved breathe, like it just got so moment to moment that the gentleness and the being more tender with myself became just the automatic thing to do. And, and yeah, part of it was also Like you mentioned pharmaceuticals was embracing pharmaceuticals and realizing that like I had been raw dogging it for well since I'd gotten sober, you know, I got sober and that's when I got sober is when I started to really recognize all the pain and because I was not medicating anymore.
[00:48:30] Jessica Graham: , and so the pharmaceuticals, whether it was the medication for ADHD slash chronic fatigue, whether it's like pain meds, whether it's, uh, you know, an antidepressant or something like this, the, these types of meds have supported me so much and allow me to have a life. Like I don't, I couldn't have written the book without them.
[00:48:53] Jessica Graham: I don't think at this point, because I'm not willing to push through anymore. I'm not willing to, , suffer at that level. I've also gone through phases where I needed to step back from the pharmaceuticals because I was using, would use them in a similar way to the meditation where I would do actually be pushing through.
[00:49:11] Jessica Graham: pushing myself, doing more than I could do because of what they were allowing me to do. , and I'm actually, I'm moving back to the East coast after 20 years in Los Angeles, , this, this spring. And once I get settled in, I have a plan in place that I have support around to come off of some of the meds I'm on because Life is going to have a really different shape on the East Coast.
[00:49:39] Jessica Graham: This means it's just, I'm going to live like in the woods and, , I want to see where I'm at and then I can bring back in what I, what I need to bring back in. And some of them I'll, I'll stay on because I know that they really, really work for me. , but that too, it's like, it's for me, it's like an ebb and flow.
[00:49:58] Jessica Graham: And it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a. self trust. And that's what has really deepened for me over the years of working with the pain, trauma resolution, deeper self and spiritual discovery, to just really trust myself.
[00:50:18] Charna Cassell: Yeah, that's, , whether it's digestive issues or chronic inflammation and being in the relationship to seeing like what the external world as well as our internal world, how it impacts the physical body.
[00:50:34] Charna Cassell: It is absolutely a way to, I mean, I've experienced that with food, with, with reactivity to foods, that it's, it's taught me about energy and it's taught me about self trust. Yeah. And how, how attuned can I be, can I, can I listen to the thoughts that arise around certain foods, as well as listen to what, how my body responds and knowing what it needs and what's going to be the most nourishing thing for it, you know, , and people, not just foods, but people, right, any, everything and everything, clients,
[00:51:07] Jessica Graham: even, you know,
[00:51:08] Charna Cassell: And, and so it can be, it can feel at times like, , you could potentially feel victimized or the, the lack of justice in chronic ailment.
[00:51:17] Charna Cassell: And then there's also like, and it's, you know, I don't always say silver lining, but the piece of, Oh, this was my spiritual path for developing this particular muscle and capacity. It could have come, it could have happened a different way and it happened this way. That
[00:51:32] Jessica Graham: discernment was cultivated through it.
[00:51:34] Jessica Graham: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it's funny because just to get really current and to also like, I like to let folks know again and again that like, There's not a graduation point. I haven't like graduated because with with everything going on in the world and in my city, , I leaned into a coping mechanism, which is hilarious to my teenage self to think that this would be a coping mechanism, but eating grain.
[00:52:07] Jessica Graham: I can't eat grains. , I can, every once in a while, I can have a little cheat and it won't have a huge consequence, but I can't eat grains every day for, for a couple weeks. And I have, I eat Honey Nut Cheerios and like this really good, healthy gluten free pizza with grains. I am dealing with the consequences now.
[00:52:24] Jessica Graham: , I'm in a lot more pain than I would have been if I didn't do that, but. That was what I needed to do, and it's okay. you know what I mean? Like, it's okay that that happens. And, you know, the other thing, you said something about, , the thoughts and what was happening in the body, as far as, like, really attuning to that.
[00:52:46] Jessica Graham: I got one of these aura rings. And, um, my therapist was like, talking to me for like six months. She wanted me to get one ever. She'd be like, so did you? And I'm like, no, I don't want to, it's expensive. Whatever. I had some other thing I was using, but the cool thing about this ring, and this isn't, you know, an ad, but the cool thing about it is it tells you about your, your, your psychological stress.
[00:53:09] Jessica Graham: And, , I don't have a lot of stressful thoughts, like, I don't have, I pretty much have no negative self talk that, that I'm aware of, like, because when it happens, it's so obvious, and I'm just like, and that's just from practice, just years and years of practice, right? So, I don't always recognize that there is stress occurring, because it's subtle, it's so subtle, but this ring.
[00:53:39] Jessica Graham: Is showing me when I'm stressed and it's been really illuminating. Like when I did my virtual book launch, not stressed at all, engaged and relaxed. But then like a conversate, a challenging conversation with someone about like a topical issue, stressed. Right before bedtime, stressed. I get stressed before bedtime.
[00:54:06] Jessica Graham: It's hard. I I've, I've, uh, challenges for the last, well, I guess my whole life, but the last three years around going to bed, like putting myself to bed, it's not sleeping. I can sleep. It's putting myself to bed and that's like my edge right now that I'm working with, and it's based on a whole bunch of things we don't have time to get into.
[00:54:21] Jessica Graham: But, My ring, the ring is showing me that like, when it gets to be that time, I start to get stressed out. So it's really fascinating to like, see where can technology come in to help with some of this stuff and help get deeper understanding and even more attunement.
[00:54:41] Charna Cassell: Well, and kind of just tying it back to the piece about the usefulness of pharmaceuticals, I think it's, it's important to not, a lack of rigidity, right?
[00:54:52] Charna Cassell: It's like, how can we be flexible with ourselves and accept the range of what works for us and for other people? And what really worked for us now is not necessarily going to work for us in five years. And as we're evolving, so is technology and all the resources and, you know. It's like certain ways we might be purists and then other ways, how can we really take advantage of the resources around us and in, in us, you know?
[00:55:23] Jessica Graham: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's the reason I'm so open about pharmaceuticals, about cannabis, , about even, it's not in the book, but the next book I'm sure will be AI and the ways it can be actually, I mean, obviously there's the dark side, but hell, I'll be positive. I like to speak to all of this stuff because.
[00:55:42] Jessica Graham: I think there's a lot of people that aren't giving themselves permission to have that flexibility and that fluidity because of like, you know, preconceived ideas about spirituality or wellness or whatever. , and I like, I really like busting those, those beliefs, like, you know, lovingly, but like, you know, breaking those beliefs up because they're just not, it's not serving anybody.
[00:56:04] Jessica Graham: I mean, we both, I think we, I don't know if we talked about this last time, but, , you know, there's spiritual teachers. really awakened folks who feel that they have to end their lives because they're in hiding about the things that are
[00:56:16] Charna Cassell: actually happening. Well, and there's the danger of rigidity. And being a total purist and saying, you know, supposedly not being a sexual being and then like assaulting your students.
[00:56:29] Charna Cassell: So, you know, that's a whole topic we could get into, but, , you know, just, I think it's so important that a healthy, healthy muscle supple. Right? Like, like, how do we just keep introducing more of that suppleness and then also slowness, the value of slowness, something you pointed to. We could, I could talk to you forever and we need to wrap up.
[00:56:52] Charna Cassell: , is there an exercise that you would like to guide our listeners in?
[00:56:58] Jessica Graham: Yeah. , I think we'll do a little bit of working with physical pain, , in just a really, a really simple way. And with the caveat, we've already talked about it, you know, you also have to, , talk to doctors, listen to your body, you know, all these things. But, , if you're dealing with chronic pain and you know, it's chronic and you know, you're doing everything that you can do to work with it.
[00:57:23] Jessica Graham: , and there's not actually damage being caused. It's. It's just that's your reality. , I find this, this to be very helpful. , so if you're experiencing some sort of physical pain of whatever, wherever on the scale, , can bring your attention to that sensation and see if you can separate it out from any of the thoughts regarding the sensation.
[00:57:54] Jessica Graham: Letting go of the idea of it being pain or bad. To whatever degree that's available, moment to moment, and start to get really curious about the actual, , qualities of the sensation, the temperature, the size, the shape, the movement. Is it throbbing? Is it expanding? Is it vibrating, just getting really curious about those sensations and especially tuning into the movement and change in the sensations, the kind of flowing quality, even if it's really slow or really kind of like grindy, noticing that that sensation is moving and changing.
[00:58:42] Jessica Graham: It's not solid. It's not permanent.
[00:58:47] Jessica Graham: And then just coming to the, to the mind
[00:58:53] Jessica Graham: and giving yourself the message with whatever words are most, , supportive for you, giving yourself the message that you are safe in this moment. And I'm closing my eyes right now, but it might feel safer to have them open, depending on you. Just giving yourself the message, actually saying inside your mind, something along the lines of, you are safe.
[00:59:27] Jessica Graham: There's no danger.
[00:59:32] Jessica Graham: You are safe. I'm just going back and forth between the sensation and this new message, interrupting the pain signal, , the danger signal, rather, and then, actually, do open your eyes and just look around and just do some orienting, just another resource practice, just noticing like, oh, actually, yeah, I am, I am safe, there's no danger immediately surrounding me.
[01:00:02] Jessica Graham: I'm safe. All right. And that is like, it's a combination of like, , , there's pain reprocessing therapy inspiration there, but also it's just mindfulness, you know, and positive reappraisal and, you know, it can be really, really powerful for chronic pain, , because it is about creating a new relationship to it.
[01:00:27] Jessica Graham: That changes everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hear my
[01:00:31] Charna Cassell: teacher's
[01:00:32] Jessica Graham: yeah. And you can use the same thing for anxiety or for fatigue or for, you know, all of these things are kind of danger signal.
[01:00:41] Jessica Graham: And so when we, when we, , explore them in a different way and we bring in that in the sensation and the impermanence of it and the sort of lack of label of good or bad. You know, along with all the other things, along with all the other stuff that any, any person needs on any given day.
[01:01:03] Charna Cassell: Thank you. Thank you so much.
[01:01:05] Charna Cassell: And how can people find you?
[01:01:07] Jessica Graham: Jessicagraham. com. There are links there. And, you know, I'm on the socials, you know, jessicagraham or jessicaclarkgram, depending on where you're looking. , but those links are on the site as well. , and the book is available wherever books are sold. It came out just a couple days ago.
[01:01:25] Jessica Graham: And, , you can get it at your library. You can get it at your independent bookstore. You can get it in the bookstore. Other places too.
[01:01:34] Charna Cassell: Thank you so much, Jess. Great to see you. Thanks for having me.
[01:01:39] Charna Cassell: Thank you for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like rate and review it and share it with your friends. And if you'd like to stay in touch, you can connect with me on Facebook and Instagram at laid open podcast. That's L A I D P O. The C A S T, all one word, and if you go to charnacasselle.
[01:01:59] Charna Cassell: com, you can join my newsletter and get info on discounts and upcoming courses and free events that I'm doing. And at passionatelife. org, you can get more information about my private practice and my approach to healing. This has been Laid Open Podcast. I'm your host, Charna Casselle. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together.
[01:02:22] Charna Cassell: Until next time.