Ep. 101 Cultivating Love in a Burning World featuring Activist Dean Spade

Show Notes Cultivating Love in a Burning World featuring Activist Dean Spade Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Welcome back to LaidOPEN Podcast. I am your host, Charna Cassell. My online course, pathways to Peace, mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living is open for ongoing enrollment, which means you can sign up at any time with the course, you'll receive daily videos and homework assignments and practices that you can engage in for becoming more aware of your belief systems. What disregulates your nervous system, what helps you manage stress, , and uh, have a more pleasure filled, peaceful existence You can also sign up for weekly coaching calls where I offer you direct support and answer your questions, and you get to be connected in community with other like-minded people. If you wanna learn more, you can go to charna Cassell.com, which is C-H-A-R-N-A-C-A-S-S-E-L l.com for more information. Today's guest is Dean Spade, who's been working in movements for queer and trans [00:01:00] liberation, anti militarism, and police and prison abolition for the past 25 years. His new book is Love in a Fucked Up World, how to Build Relationships, hook Up and Raise Hell Together. Welcome, Dean. Charna Cassell: I'm so happy to have you here. Dean Spade: Thank you for having me. [00:02:00] I'm so glad to be with you. Charna Cassell: Your book feels really timely because it really does feel, things feel very extreme right now. We're both in the United States I know that it took you nine years to write your book, and I'm really curious for you, what evolved over that time in terms of what influenced and what changed in the book as things evolved in your personal life as well as in the world? Dean Spade: That's such a great question. I, many of the like healing modalities I used and studied were the same over that time, but also new ones came in. Like, I mean, because I started writing this book in 2015, I was already studying with generative somatics, which we have in common, but then I did a lot more intensives, like more, more, more days, um mm-hmm. You know, in a row, more longer trainings with them. And I think like 20 17, 20 18, 20 19, that had a lot of influence. I also do like silent meditation retreats and [00:03:00] the length and frequency of those increased a lot over that period. So I think that's a major change. I mean, another really big change that's relevant is I was in an 11 year long monogamous relationship that opened and became non-monogamous. Mm-hmm. 2021 ish. So like some of the things in chapter six that like look more at that some of that learning is, is from, I mean, I had been in other non-anonymous relationships before, but many years before. So a lot of new learning mm-hmm. About that and about managing jealousy and stuff. I think influenced, especially chapter six. I mean, I rewrote and reedited the whole book so many times, including like in February, 2024, I cut like 40,000 words from the book. The learning that I was getting was, was coming through all of it again with each edit. Yeah. But yeah, certainly like my life changed a lot between, you know, in that essentially like decade that I was working on it. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Dean Spade: And the world changed so [00:04:00] much, you know? Charna Cassell: Oh yeah, of course. And you know, the, the thing that interests me is when I, I remember when I did. You know, so it was called somatics and trauma before generative somatics. And I went from being a somatic coach to entering a, a therapy program, you know, to become a marriage and family therapist. And I really witnessed, I felt like I was this thing in the middle, this world of like the, the few therapists and then the people who are more focused on social justice and social workers and the divisiveness that felt like it existed there. And I'm very just sensitive, so I'm picking those things up. , It was sometimes things were explicitly named, but you know, I can understand in terms of the self-help world, the language in the books is very heteronormative. It can be pathologizing and focused around monogamy. Mm-hmm. Right. And there's such an I focus versus a we focus mm-hmm. In social activism. And so I'm just really curious given how, , you're a significant [00:05:00] leader or in the world and. How you decided to write this book and the timing of it and what you had to overcome in order to be willing to write this book? Dean Spade: Yeah, yeah. I mean, everything you're saying is true. I, I think that, , a lot of people in our movements reject self-help because it's super individualizing and the self-help literature's and tools, a lot of them really feel that way. They're like imagining like you have a good life when you're rich and skinny and married and you know, buy property, like very normative ideas about what wellness is. Often very ableist ideas and very limited ideas of what the causes of our experiences are. Like, very focused on the individual or your individual family trauma, but not the systems that are Yeah. Kinda hurting us all in these massive patterns. So I think part of my motive to, to write this was. That I have, you know, relentlessly used that literature and those tools, even though they're really flawed 'cause I've just needed them. You know, 12 step therapy even, you know, you name it. And I, and read [00:06:00] those books and have often been lifting things out of those spaces to share with people in my life and in the organizations I'm in. And, But not really feeling comfortable. Like I can't really hand them this book that's actually, you know, denying who they are or like really harmful, that kind of feeling. But I've been willing to kind of read these, the lines. So, so part of me wanted, when I first started this, just to like write down some of the really useful ideas from that, but through a framing that Yes, um, I think is more accurate mm-hmm. That puts it in the frame of like, what is it, how are these wounds and these patterns of behavior, you know, caused by the conditions under which we all live and how could we have a less individualist approach to what the solutions are while including like. Each of our emotional awareness being like central and awareness of our behavior, et cetera. Also being in movements and seeing how much people's wounds impact our ability to work together and to, you know, move together collectively, which is what we have to do to, uh, um, you know, survive. And so, and [00:07:00] just seeing that, just so relentlessly seeing so many groups fall apart because of people's, you know, emotional activation because people broke up, because people campaigned against one another, because people felt left out. You know, all of these kind of uninvestigated, very painful, very real, and very normal things. So I think I wanted this tool to exist for me, and now there's actually more, way more politicized healing books than there were. Mm-hmm. When I started writing this, I mean, we were really having a beautiful moment of it. It's interesting, like a couple people who've talked to me have said they thought it's helpful that it's not written by a therapist. I felt sometimes very insecure. Mm-hmm. Writing it because the self-help literature is all like therapists who are seeing tons and tons and tons of clients. I do meet tons and tons of, tons of people through, , organizing and as a, as a teacher. I had a fear that I'd write a book that was only useful to people with my exact same wounding patterns or my same behavior. I really wanted to try to see beyond that. But of course, you know, it's hard to know. Whether you are seeing things that way. And then I also just as you're saying, had some kind of, like, [00:08:00] I had some like real shame spirals and like concern about. Entering this questionable, , genre and being like, you know, how do I write this in a way I wanted this book to be like, something you could pick up and skim and something that felt like a Cosmo quiz and something that was kind of fun, but it's also like an anti-violence tool. Mm-hmm. That's about some really serious stuff. And so how to like, um, be serious enough for people in my community who, who expect that of me and are very serious, and also bring in some new people. I really want it to be read by young people. Mm-hmm. People who don't like to read that much. People who might just screenshot the. Lists and charts and send them to their friends. Like, I wanted it to be really, really like, useful to circulate as a way for people to talk to each other about what's going on and feel less alone and less, um, self-blaming about things that are actually our shared patterns that we can say, Hey, actually that's not me. That's not my feeling. That's like a script and I get to try to make some choices around it, even though it's really strong right now. Um, so [00:09:00] yeah, I think it, it, I mean I honestly, I had so much doubt and shame while writing it, that it definitely slowed the process down. Mm-hmm. But I think the things I went through about it make me feel a lot more comfortable with it now. Like now I really feel like it's okay if people like it or not because I spent so much time having to. Be okay with that to let myself write it. Mm-hmm. It's a really interesting experience compared to other things I've written where I'm just kind of like, I thought every bad thing a person could think about this book and decided that it, that it's okay for me to share it with the world anyway. Mm-hmm. So anyone else is also welcome to like, get what they like out of it and leave the rest, you know, Charna Cassell: which is there, there's so many things that you said that I would love to respond to, but that last piece I think is so important because there is this beautiful quality to the book that it's nonjudgmental. Dean Spade: Right. Thank you. Charna Cassell: But that said like, the fact that you had to go through so much of you had to do what the book is talking about, you had to be in that internal process of, um, so often we [00:10:00] project out this fear of judgment, but it's really our own judgment, right? Yeah. And so you're like working through it and working through it and, and then finally getting to a place where you can like practice that non-attachment and go like the people that this book. Is gonna, you know, it's gonna help some people. It doesn't have to help everybody. It's not everybody's flavor. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Dean Spade: Yeah. I, I mean, I am a real shame monster. So it was huge. And when I read the audio book, you know, this was months and months and months after I'd last done any edits, you know, that the, it's time to read the audio book. And I had never done that before. And, you know, you sit and you read every sentence multiple times. There's these directors who are on to being like, oh, you just breathed funny, or, oh, you just followed, or whatever. You know, it's, it was actually amazing, I'm tell you, much better reader aloud. And they were both really, really kind. But it, it's hard, rigorous, but I actually felt like, I was like, oh, what is this a book about? Now I'm finding out reading it start to finish out loud. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To two strangers who have no connection to it. And I was like, this is just a gentleness spell that [00:11:00] I, it's just what I need. I'm just, I just wrote the book in the tone that I need someone to talk to me. Mm-hmm. And reading it aloud, I was like, oh, I'm just giving myself this spell right now. Charna Cassell: Yeah. No, that's so beautiful. And I, you know, the. The, one of the takeaways for me, um, is just the focus on, there's the focus on safety. And what I really appreciated is the normalization of dysregulation, right? That everybody gets dysregulated and, and you're acknowledging the value. You're, you know, you're, you're turning to your comrades, your friends, your community, and going like, okay guys, so we, we actually need to address what's happening inside of us. Become more aware. And you even name like awareness is liberation, which I completely agree with. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: So that we can actually take responsibility for, for our own internal [00:12:00] experiences that we may project out onto others our own wounding. That's, that can impede and affect our ability to organize effectively. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: Rather than it just being always an external view of like, we have to manage this lack of safety and these things that are these systems outside of ourselves. It's like we actually replicate those systems inside of ourselves. Right? Mm-hmm. Where am I authoritarian and punishing and controlling with myself? Where do I need to liberate myself in order to actually be a presence that can help facilitate that in the world? Dean Spade: Yeah. There's just, I mean, I think what you're saying makes me just think about like, I think what happens all day long, we are all activated or dysregulated. We all have moments where like that email or that pressure or that memory mm-hmm. Or that conversation. And I think most of us are like, whatever comes to my mind, then my judgment of that other person or myself is just true. Mm-hmm. And a lot of people in our society, it's good to be rational [00:13:00] and bad. To be emotional, so people believe their feelings are facts because it's a way of protecting, you know? Mm-hmm. And so the, I mean, if there's nothing else that anyone gets in this book, the thing I think it it's most useful for is just to be like, oh, I'm having a strong feeling right now. Mm-hmm. Just that can give you a chance to be like, maybe I won't press send on that mean email, or maybe I won't storm out, or maybe I won't, you know, whatever the action. Instead, I could just be, I'm having a strong feeling and then maybe even like, what do I need, or mm-hmm. Remembering that it'll probably pass and I can make some decisions later, or. , Being kind to myself while I'm having that feeling like, oh, you're scared. Like any, those moves are so tiny, but they're massive. 'cause when we have the strong feeling, we're just like, that person's bad, or everything's over, or, I'm a huge failure, or everyone needs to do what I say, or like, whatever our go-tos are. And I think that in our movement organizations, people are constantly activated by working together. Of course, it's super hard [00:14:00] to work with other people. We're working on things that are literally life and death. A lot of us have been through something horrible and we're working on something about that. Right? So that's, it's triggering like how we lost our loved ones or how we were hurt or whatever. And we're getting these moments of activation and then we're just putting politicized language on it. And it's true. There is political stuff happening, you know what I mean? Like, we might be having an exchange and I might be being ableist towards you, or you might be being transphobic towards me, or whatever. That's, that's there. Mm-hmm. We have power differences and all that stuff. But we don't acknowledge that there's also at least an equal amount of emotional activation happening. Mm-hmm. So it's just like I'm gonna kind of steamroll you with my political rationale of why, my feelings of wanting to get rid of you or wanting to disappear or wanting to not do what I said I would do, or yelling at you or whatever are rational and okay. And good. And that no one wins. You know what I mean? Right. Or worse yet, I need to go out in the world and tell everybody else how you are, blah, blah, blah. And then I need to disorganize our community by needing everyone to like take my side or your side and then [00:15:00] we're like way worse off. Yeah. Than if I had been able to somehow be with whatever was hurt or scared or whatever in this moment and like turned to some friends for some help around like, what's the next ethical step? With how I'm feeling and whatever happened between us, you know? Mm-hmm. And it could just all be a lot less escalated, I think. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and there's very little practice there right now. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. The, you know, one of the important things that you talk about in the book is decentralizing romantic relationships. You know, the romance myth, which what we, I would love for you to get into for the listeners, um, and the importance of having. You know, like, of course we need internal resource, but we need a strong external resource so that you have that community of people, those friends that know you enough, that you can hear that when you are dysregulated or triggered, you can turn to them and you can check [00:16:00] yourself. Because what we do do, whether it's you're working in a, a job or you're organizing with people, or it's your family, it's like you project your, your youngest wounded experiences onto these people and then you think they're, it's true. 'cause you're feeling in present time, all of the sensation, your body, and it feels so real. Mm-hmm. And it must be about this person across from you. Mm-hmm. Rather than once you build that awareness. Right. That you can see, you notice the sensations in your body that tell you, oh, this is something from the past that's occurring right now. And then you can start to dismantle that on your own or with friends, right? Dean Spade: Yeah. Or I've felt this before. Exactly. Like, right, Dean, when Charna's late, you go to this place, or when Charna says that you can't hang out tonight, you go to this place, whatever the, you know. Mm-hmm. When Charna says, Dean, why didn't you do your task from the meeting? You go to this, you know? And it's like, that's what I think is actually really helpful about the silent retreats for me. Mm-hmm. Is you, you know, you [00:17:00] spend time not talking and notice meditating and noticing what's going on in your mind. And it starts to think, you know, we all think we have like the, all these diverse, amazing thoughts, actually just a very few tapes are running in there. Mm-hmm. And when, when they start to be so obvious, 'cause they're just God, they repeat, and when I sit down to meditate, they're repeating again and repeating again. And I'm, I'm trying not to judge that and just being like, wow. These are the names of some of my tapes. And then later when I'm in a meeting with you or we're on a date or we're fighting about our kid or whatever, what is happening, and I hear one of those tapes, I'm like, oh, that tape has a name and it's Dean's tape. It's not really about Charna. Mm-hmm. Like the Dean's tape player is good at that. You know, that's such a freeing, it's, you know, there's one side where we can be very self judgemental. Like, oh God, I still have that tape. Or I'm, I can't believe I'm having this reaction again. The other hand, I'm so much freer 'cause I know it's my tape and I can try to love myself for having that tape, or try to care for what started that tape in my childhood or whatever. But I don't have to like freak out on [00:18:00] you. Yeah. Thinking that this tape is a, like, you know, exact replication of the true world and whatever it's saying about you and me is what's really happening, you know? Charna Cassell: Right. And what you're pointing to, which is really important, is the difference between being able to discern what is fear and a trigger in the present moment and what's. An instinct or truth and, and being able, and this is where, uh, it's tricky to capture in a book, right? Right. The physic, the physical practices and the value of that, that I've come to learn. So yes, through meditation, but then also really starting to identify what are the physical cues inside your system that you associate with those original wounds, so that you can then know, like for me, my sign is my heart starts beating really fast, and that's not a mm-hmm. Historically, I lived in chronic anxiety. I don't now. So when that's happening, suddenly [00:19:00] I know that it's, it's a neon sign going, hey. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: There's something out of your consciousness to put your attention on and try to, you know, bring forward so that you know what's actually the source. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel called to name something that I wonder if you see. I think there's some trends in the ways that some ideas from self-help genres and psychology are circulating. Mm-hmm. One is that sometimes people, when they learn to notice that they're having a sensation like Charna when you're late, I felt fear or when mm-hmm. You raised your voice. I felt then they think it means I know this now. You have to do whatever I say. Mm-hmm. So one thing that happens is when people learn what's activating to them, it, they think it's a set of instructions. No one's allowed to do anything that makes me feel this way. So instead of it being like, wow, this is Dean's feeling, it's like everyone else's to manage once I've named it. I think that happens a lot. And the other thing is I think there's a lot of intense kind of like self [00:20:00] pathologization, , that actually is escalatory. So like once I have some names mm-hmm. For these sensations, and if they're kind of psychology type words, people both, I think label each to other very harmfully. Like I, I see lots of people labeling other people narcissists and other mm-hmm. You know, words from psychiatry. We should of course never embrace psych psychiatric labels since they're used to like, um, you know, sterilize and imprison people. And we should be very suspicious of thinking that they're like, that. That's a a, a discipline we want to copy in our, in our social lives, in our movements. But also like there can be a kind of. If I can name the feeling and use that kind of language even more entitlement to have everybody else do whatever I say. And so there, I think there's, the book is trying to do this thing that's kind of intense of being like, notice how we feel. Mm-hmm. And that we get to say yes and no to people. Absolutely. I can say, I can have a boundary with you about how you speak to me or how our time together is. Absolutely. But you [00:21:00] then get to be like, Dean, I can't do that. Or No, I don't wanna hang out with you if that's the rule. Or like we all like, you don't have to do whatever I say just because I found out I have a wound and a set of sensations that go with it. And my real goal is to become more flexible. Yes. And so I wanna be like trying to get you up in lots of ways. Even if I felt the bumps, I could welcome someone. Or if, if my friend shows up in crisis or if someone shows up angry at me and they're pointing their reactions at me and it's not grounded, I could, I could I even then cultivate my own feeling of safety or of supportiveness, including by being able to say no when I need to. But I think that a lot of people with the current like memification of self-help just get as far as, I've got a name for what's wrong with you, or for what's serious up my feeling. And now I wanna try to use that to control others for my safety. Yes. Instead of generating safety through actually knowing when I wanna say yes or [00:22:00] no, and maybe to other people and like. Knowing I wanna actually heal that and become more able to be with you even when you can't be exactly as I most wish you were. Charna Cassell: Yes. Yes. I think that's so important. and You talk about it in your book, um, as well, in terms of locating safety internally versus it needing to control your environment and the people in it, and how that mi that that mirrors or mimics policing people. Mm-hmm. Right. I, you, I think you also worked with, with Stacy directly. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And so she was the first person that I felt safe in relation to. Mm-hmm. Right. So I located safety inside myself, but also externally. She was the first, I was like, oh, I can actually trust another human. Humans can be safe beings. But the visceral experience and the importance of how somatic played out for me was being able to feel safe, , inside myself [00:23:00] and trust myself and trust my capacity to protect myself even in an unsafe world. Mm-hmm. And I don't get to control other people's ways of being. Right. Like, and as you said, people get to, you have, you can make a request, you can ask someone for something, and you can let them inform them of how they're impacting you. And they still get to have choices and they get to say no. And then you get to be with what gets stirred up inside yourself in response to that and develop, , less fragility mm-hmm. And more capacity, uh, to be flexible with the range of like, wow, I have different needs in that person over there. Dean Spade: Yeah. Charna Cassell: What, what do I need to do to take care of myself? Oh, if the mu if the music is too loud under the speaker, like, yeah, I can go and, and choose a different seat in this restaurant. Like, I don't need to. Yeah. Dean Spade: Yeah. I, I think that, you know, it's interesting, that idea, which in the sematic classes I took was called self-generated Safety. That idea is so radical because the thing we fear is that it's victim blaming, right? [00:24:00] Like, we don't, like, it's, it was hard to figure out how to write about it in a way that acknowledges that, um, safety is also external, right? Like, like there is like gender based and racial violence in our society. There is colonialism and war, like, right, there is violence that we, you can't, we can't endlessly generate our own safety. Um, and some of the self-help literature can be really harmful 'cause it's like pretends that we can like, think positive enough to, like everyone on earth could be, you know, perfectly safe. When of course we all know there are many, many conditions that exceed our own control. And yet there is something so profound about the idea of self-generated safety and the idea that, I think about this a lot with belonging in social movement groups. People come into a space and often we ha we always have a story about belonging that's going on. Mm-hmm. Probably some unconsciously. So, am I gonna be the only one in here like me? Am I gonna, are people gonna think I'm smart? Am I gonna, you know, just a lot of fear about and strategies we used in [00:25:00] school and the family and our lives to belong. You see people a lot reproduce their negative experiences of belonging. No matter who's in the room, they're gonna let everyone know they're the only one like them. They're gonna find a way to see it that way. You know, there's a, we repeat and we try to, you know, we don't know what we're doing, but we're re we reproduce familiar states Yes. Even if they're unpleasant for us. Mm-hmm. And so, like one of the things I've been talking about with some people is like, for years I would enter a room to do, I, you know, I just used to do these massive trainings, like trends 1 0 1 trainings, like, you know, in the early two thousands, sometimes for like government agencies, like really unp really hostile environments, or I was teaching in law schools where, you know, my ideas were very unpopular, whatever. I was often just speaking to huge groups of people. And at first I noticed I would pick somebody in the room who I thought would hate me. You know, somebody looks like a frat boy or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. And sometimes, you know, I, I, I would be focused on that person and what it was like when I decided to shift. And look for people who I thought wanted and needed what I was sharing. Mm. Because I was gonna share either way. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And so am I gonna like [00:26:00] cultivate my shame spiral, or you know, or am I going to, and other things you can do too, like, you know, thinking about people elsewhere in the world who agree with you and want you there. Thinking about for the sake of why am I here? Who are the people impacted by the people in this room who I'm hoping will have a different experience if they hear this information. Like whatever it was, you know? Yeah. But like that thing of being like, I, I see it a lot too in groups where, you know, somebody who enters the group, A lot of people coming to our movements don't know all of our lingo. They use words sometimes that are harmful, you know? And we can be really sensitive to that because we've had so many bad experiences of it. Mm-hmm. So one of the questions is like, if we're gonna welcome new people who don't know our stuff yet, and we're gonna have to repeat ourselves and share why that thing is hurtful, and ask them to slowly learn. People often don't learn a thing the first time they get feedback on it. Maybe they need 20 people to give them feedback before they think it's serious. Most of us do. Right. So. How can I, when I have that encounter, remember that even though this person's saying something that hurts, there's 15 other people in the room or 200 other people I know, or whatever. Mm-hmm. Who, who were with me on this, can I [00:27:00] feel safety? Mm-hmm. Instead of being so tuned in to this victimization. Mm-hmm. Because we're really encouraged to feel like victims in this society. Like that's where our power will come from. And it so much of our harming each other comes from that. So, can I, can I generate? And it's like, you can't do it if you can't do it. You know? I gotta be able to say, no, I'm not gonna talk to that guy about pronouns because I don't feel like it, or whatever. Or about, you know, why we wear masks or whatever the thing is. Right. But like, I think there's just something about wanting to become somebody who could not grin and bear it, not like hurt myself and exhaust myself, but instead just like actually feel mm-hmm. So supported by the people I know and the things I've done and my, my certainty of our wisdom. That I could be willing to share the same feedback with somebody again and again, that I'll have to share with every newbie who walks in here instead of being shocked and hurt and having to like leave the group because someone didn't know something yet. You know? And I think that's really, again, we can't rush that in ourselves. Like some people really need to spend a lot of time in a space where certain things are [00:28:00] less likely to happen. 'cause they need, they've never had a moment's piece from some kind of repeated experience or whatever. But those of us who want that role mm-hmm. And it needs to be a lot of us. Yeah. Of welcoming new people into our movements and helping them learn the movement, wisdom about how we support each other. We've gotta like find a way to. To generate some of that safety, and it's really just noticing that it's there. Mm. You know, instead of only noticing the deficit, only noticing the person who doesn't get you noticing the people in the meeting who do get you or who are neutral, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that that's challenging. So much of this comes back to, to this, I have a lot of Ians lately in trainings about how much we need to give each other direct feedback. Mm-hmm. And how we don't do that and we ghost and we hold that up and then blow up and whatever. We're so bad at feedback and it, it creates so much harm in our. Um, in our groups and people will be like, yeah, but when I've given feedback, it's not always taken well. And it's like, yeah, actually that's so intense. Mm-hmm. I might say to you, I need us to not sit in that part of the restaurant. And you might be like, Dean, [00:29:00] get over yourself. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And people aren't like, people aren't always able to like, have that consent conversation with you. Mm-hmm. Or they're defensive and that, how can I be tolerant of that? How can I still get what I need? Mm-hmm. How can I trust that they're on their own journey and maybe they're gonna need that feedback 25 more times before that becomes an area of change. And I get to decide if I want to be one of the people who keeps giving that to them or not. Mm-hmm. But like, yeah, like people are wildly imperfect and it's like we all are, we're, and we've all been on the other side of that. Mm-hmm. We've all had to be told something by a lot of people before we listened. Charna Cassell: One of the things that you're pointing to that's so important, it's that the image I had when you were. Standing, I'm picturing you standing in front of a room, right? And you're going from this narrow focus, like a spotlight on a bro to maybe multiple spotlights or your vision opens up and you're able to see these other people that are like hanging on your words that are [00:30:00] hungry to be related to. And then I was imagining you, this is where physical practice is so valuable, important, is like having the difference between knowing something intellectually or reading something and having a visceral experience in your body that you can then recall in that moment. And I'm picturing, you know, like what if you're, you had the experience of multiple hands at your back. Mm-hmm. And you're remembering that moment of feeling like, I can exhale, I can feel that somebody somewhere has had my back in the past. Mm-hmm. And I can generate that in this present moment, right? Mm-hmm. And that's the thing that I, you know, do with individuals. It's like, okay, so in this moment. I know historically people haven't been safe or whatever the experience has been, but can you feel that I am here with you right now, right? Mm-hmm. This moment, let's just start to, let's plant that seed, let's water that. Let's see if we can expand that feeling, you know, and this thing of like, well, we all [00:31:00] do this, we all have these receptors. And of course you're looking for the bro. You're track, you know, comes from a, a, a vigilance and a tracking. Mm-hmm. I wanna be safe. And if I can just fixate on the thing that's not working, maybe I can prevent it from moving in a way that doesn't work for me. You know? And, and then be instead going into a practice of looking for the things that work. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: Like looking for the ways you are safe. Yeah. Looking for the ways you are supported. Dean Spade: I've had somatic therapists even say like, when I've had a lot of pain in my body, like, find a part of your body that's not in pain. Mm-hmm. And f focus on it if you can. And that was useful. And I what you're saying too, like I've had that experience a lot. One-on-one therapy and other kinds of healing modalities of being like, this person's listening to this, this person believes me, or this person is a person who's affirming that it's okay to have these feelings that others have told me I'm not allowed to have. Or, you know, just, yeah, like the, I think a lot of people who go to therapy who haven't been to therapy think therapy might be [00:32:00] about a therapist giving you advice. Mm-hmm. Or doing something to change your feelings when really a lot of it is just like practicing having a relationship that has a different set of boundaries or agreements than the one you've been practicing. Mm-hmm. You know, because most, or the ones that you've been practicing over and over again in very coercive environments like families and jobs, you know? Charna Cassell: Yeah. The thing I'm trying to remember there, there was something at the very beginning of what you had said. You, you were like, do you see this occurring in. People using just, okay. I'm trying to remember the victimizing and overusing kind of pathologizing language and, and kind of like, this is my trauma. And expecting people externally to, um, then follow a certain set of rigid rules and ways of being and order to accommodate their trauma. Mm-hmm. Et cetera. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I, I just wanted to, to say [00:33:00] yes, I absolutely, I see, I mean, you can't be on social media and not see the influx of all of this, like, overuse of certain language, you know, words, labels, and how it kind of dilutes them because it's like, what do we actually mean? Even with the word depressed? It's like, what, what does that mean for you? You know? , What are the set of experiences you have? What I would like to, . Mention, and that I appreciated in your book was, uh, the, the conversation about forgiveness. And you use an example in, in your partnership, and it was very clear in the example that you used. It was like, oh, this person had to do a lot of their own self-inquiry. They had to know what their own, you know, , tender spots were, , in order and have had practiced with their partner developing certain kinds of communication skills. And, , have a [00:34:00] partner that was willing to do that with them before you could enter a situation where someone else would see it as a big betrayal. You were able to hold it like, oh, this is this pattern from childhood that my partner is acting out. I'm gonna hold it in the, in the context of who he is. Really not take, not take it personally is how I read it. Yeah. And have a conversation about it versus automatically going into a highly reactive place. And you could even see in the past you're like, oh, I would've been much more reactive historically. Yeah. And so if you wanted to unpack that a little bit what it, what it took for you to get to that, because this is a long-term commitment to ourselves and to others to develop these tools. Dean Spade: Yeah. It's funny just hearing you, I, it's really fun. I love hearing other people what they get out of the book. You know, I really appreciate you reading it and it's really amazing for me. But just [00:35:00] hearing you describe that story and then reflecting on my boyfriend, who that story's about and how, you know, we've been together for like 15 and a half years. In my opinion, we are both far more flexible and less rigid. Mm-hmm. Than ever. And so many, I think the romance model usually goes in the other direction. People control their partner more and more rigidly and tightly over time. Frequently, you know, at the beginning and the early in love, there's a little more looseness and wanting the best for you. And then over time people are like, every single thing you do is irritating to me and you're doing it wrong. And it's a threat to me. And people get more and more isolated in their relationships. And so many people I know right now are taking care of elderly folks mm-hmm. Who were completely isolated in their marriage and it may be are still, or one person has died and they're completely alone because everything, when everything is a threat, you know, people end up with very, very narrow, rigid lives and. A lot of those people, their aging looks like having incredibly rigid rules about what they can and can't do and what they will or won't do [00:36:00] to the point of excluding, you know, pleasure and connection. So anyway, it's very profound. But that story, um, you know, you'll remember that story begins with like, I, we, you know, we were together for like seven years while he was still actively an alcoholic and we were in that whole dance and then he got sober and this experience I had when he, you know, throughout, I was raised by an alcoholic parent, so I, I really had like a whole pattern around that. And I was very much in my stuff and he was very much in his stuff. And we were also doing a lot of emotional work on our relationship during that time. But that was a consistent problem, you know. . When he finally got sober, we, I was, I like all of my anger came rushing in. Like before that I think I'd been doing a lot more like trying to hold it together and being like mad, but then sort of like maybe believing things are getting better, but then they're not, and like, anyway, my resentments became overwhelming to me when he got sober and we did this process with our therapist where there were just, were so many memories I had of times when like bad things had happened that then [00:37:00] he didn't remember. 'cause he had that kind of, you know, classic amnesia where it's like every time it happened, it was as if it was the first time. And I was like, no, this happened before and you promised you wouldn't do this again and now you're doing it. And he's like, what? You know? And, and it was like enraging. And so I would, I just kept remembering all these hard moments now that he was finally in reality with me. I was like, what about this? What about this? And so, 'cause I'd never had any satisfaction of, of having my truth be witnessed in those times. So my, the, the, the therapist we were both working with, um. Had us do this thing where I would tell him some of the stories that were in my mind and he would repeat them back to me. Mm-hmm. And so that I knew that he knew they happened and I could see he and he, he did it very faithfully. He really, you know, was actually listening and he was often crying, and I could see that he was actually sorry that these things had happened and I could update myself to the moment we were in where he had stopped drinking. So these things weren't gonna happen in this way anymore, and I really felt like I had never actually had an [00:38:00] experience of forgiveness in my life until then. Because we don't get to this with our parents usually. Like, I don't, most people I know don't like they, they die or they never want to talk about things, or they deny that they ever did these things or whatever. We don't, we just, most people break up and don't do it with their lovers. Like a lot of people avoid the level of conflict where we really get into things with friends, coworkers, whatever. So this was like this really rare experience of truly having bad things happen for a long time. Truly being heard about them, having him actually be remorseful and have a plan to not do them again, that I believed. And actually feeling myself let it go and be ready to be with him in the current moment and not be lost in those stories. And then after that, after he and I did that, maybe two or three sessions with the therapist that way, then we would just do it on our own. And it was just no big deal. Mm-hmm. He had gained the muscle of, he didn't need to defend against it, and I could let it go really fast. So if a story came up. So there's still probably a few more months where a story would come up and I'd be like, right now I'm remembering this thing and it's really hard. And he would listen to me in that way. And, and [00:39:00] it was, it would do it the trick, which was amazing. It was like we'd learned this thing mm-hmm. Of non offensiveness and of letting go instead of holding on forever, which is the role of the partner of the alcoholic or the child of the alcoholic usually. And then as I write about in the book, , several years later, he lied to me about something regarding our sexual agreements and, . He was back in a, a, a childlike pattern. You know, that was not where he was kinda like, what? Like, it was like the same vibe even though there was no substances involved. And I, yeah, it was a wild experience because I of course don't like to be lied to and it's actually, you know, a boundary I have, I'm not willing to be in a relationship where I'm lied to. Mm-hmm. and I could see that he was just in his thing, this whole, his whole lying thing, it's a, it's a relationship to a certain kind of child abuse he experienced. It's just like a way that he survived. And yeah, it was like the recovery was so much faster than you would think and the big moment. And it was that I, I could, I [00:40:00] could see how in our culture, you know, there's a huge room for me to just be like, he's a liar. And I could tell my friends he's a liar and like, everybody like lying is bad, right? Like and mm-hmm. I could just have created a big story, but actually he's not a liar. He's like truthful 99% of the time. He's an incredibly ethical person. Like amazing person. And in this one area, which we all have these mm-hmm. He was really off base and that's not who he is. And I don't need to take that on as a story to, to make myself into the victim of the li like just the whole thing. Mm-hmm. That's just really culturally just waiting for me to grab, especially about lovers. 'cause there's thousands of books and songs and movies, you know, about this. Mm-hmm. And I just was like, that's not really true. Even when I was mad and being like, yeah, this, no, you know, even when I was, was in the middle of establishing the boundary and being like, this is, you know, which is important work that had to be done. And, you know, he needed to pop out of the delusion he was under and figure out what he needed to do to not go back into it. Which he did [00:41:00] that work, but like I just didn't pick it up. The narrative, you know, that makes me the permanent victim and that's totalizing about both of us. About the value of our relationship and us as people. It just isn't true. And it was really, that felt very liberated for me. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh, I don't have to do this. Charna Cassell: Yeah. It's this thing that, you know, making people, it's like seeing it black and white, making people all bad. And the forgiveness is such a charge topic. You know, I work a lot with sexual trauma. That's a, a huge, um, part of the population that seeks me out is in work, is healing somatically. Um. From sexual trauma. And, and I define that in a very, you know, kind of a vast, a broad way and helping people like [00:42:00] finding that right moment where I can start to empower. So when someone fully is wearing a cloak of victim hood Dean Spade: mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And, and offering them new ways to talk to themselves, because that's what you're talking about, right? You're talking, it's like that, that self-talk. How am I gonna tell this story? I can tell in a variety of different ways, right? How am I gonna experience it? I can either go back to that kind of very narrow mm-hmm. Vision of this person, a snapshot in like, this one moment where I can see them in the larger context of this relationship and who they are. Mm-hmm. And the, just the phrase of like, I remember who I am, I remember who they are. That can be a very like, helpful tool. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: but I love especially about Dean Spade: sexual violence in our culture. Yeah. 'cause sexual violence is where we love to make a monster. And our whole entire policing and prison system is justified on these TV shows that are Copaganda about serial rapists. And we're told [00:43:00] this is, yeah. And in reality, sexual violence is pervasive and it's in all of our families and in all of our communities. And so it doesn't fit this idea that these people are just monsters when they're also kind of like, almost everybody is part of it, you know? Or covering for it, or, you know, so like, there's something that's so violent there in that it, and so then people don't, most people don't report sexual violence and, you know, don't, don't have a hard time finding safety from it because that's, 'cause the O only option is something that's such a bad fit. Yeah. That makes people into monsters that'll go away and never come back again. And so it takes away, you know, and, and it puts survivors in an impossible. , Situation that you know of either having all the harm being minimized and it never happened to you, or you have to go into the, you know, working with this system that, um, ma makes this person who is probably someone close to you, into someone who'd be kept in the cage for the rest of their life. And that I just, that it's like, oh, how, how are we supposed to get good, um, narratives and for people who are [00:44:00] doing harm and wanna stop or who consider who know they're attempted to do harm and wanna not do it, they can't tell anyone That's right. Yeah. You know, so there's no prevention possibility because this is something unbearable to name. So this whole idea that everyone who does this is a whole person who also does other things is so taboo. Charna Cassell: Yeah. The, so, I I was also part of generation five. Yeah. Are you familiar with that organization? So for those of you listening that don't know what it is, it's an organization that was committed to ending child sexual abuse within five generations. And we would have community response projects. And I was in my twenties when I was in that. Group and doing that training. And it was really an important part of my foundational way of looking at humanity. Mm-hmm. And being able to hold people's complexity, right. So having, uh, someone close to me be a perpetrator of domestic violence and but also being the one man when I was a teenager that I trusted, like the one adult that I felt safe with. So, [00:45:00] holding those complexities and, even the other day, having a client who it's like, has a sense of something that may have happened pre, verbally with their dad, but at the same time, the thing of like, if that's true, then does my dad literally the language used have to, you know, like, go to prison and be a bad man in my mind for the rest of my life. And being able to say like, unfortunately, the reality is that I, I think that preverbal sexual abuse is extremely, extremely common and that there can even be no physical touch. There can just be this, children are so porous, there can be this energetic invasion that, that they feel impacted by that, that impact, that that affects how we are in relationship, how safe we feel, or how like, , taken advantage of, we feel as even just a sense in the world, just existing in a, female body. And having the male gaze can, you know, there's such a range of, what sexual [00:46:00] trauma can look like, but for people to go to these extremes and then to have this one image, rather than it being like, let's just hold what you feel, which is a lack of safety, let's be with that. Mm-hmm. We don't have to make up, we don't have to jump to a story. We don't have to even know to heal something. Mm-hmm. But we also don't have to go into what that means about who this person might be. Dean Spade: I love that. I love you saying this, and I'm so grateful to you for your work in Generation five, which has been such an important work for me. And the, the document that they made that you all made that I think now is online as ending child sexual abuse, but it also exists as a PDF called toward. Transformative justice, this document that describes really how our society has dealt with child sexual abuse in the worst possible ways and why it hasn't worked and what Generations Five Vision is. I really recommend it to all your listeners. It's a mind blowing, , useful read and, , yeah, I just, I'm so grateful too for your work in that [00:47:00] group. It's, it's really, it's changed so many people's lives. Charna Cassell: What's, what's interesting also about that, it's, um, when I was doing that work and I'd be at like a wedding, literally the, you know, I'd be talking to the priest or something and I would say what I was up to, and then he would share with me that he was sexually abused. Like I would be in all these different settings and then it, it, oh, just doing that work and being in a place where I wasn't going to completely vilify. An offender and instead go, how can bystanders actually be in dialogue rather than what happens is there's so much shame for the person who's, , the victim in that, in a, in a scenario. And then they don't, they, the discomfort of the bystanders prevent the conversation from being viable. Mm-hmm. And happening because they're protecting the bystanders. Even when you're a child, you're protecting your parents, right? Mm-hmm. , And so it's just like this system of silence that occurs instead of [00:48:00] going, what if we, if we didn't make people like all completely bad and abhorrent, , then maybe we could actually come to some resolution. We could actually have conversations that start to change systems. But the, the lack of awareness, the total silence prevents liberation. Dean Spade: This is full circle. Back to our conversation about what's wrong with mainstream self-help is that it's like there's something wrong with individuals and same story. What's wrong with the criminalization system? It's like harm doers are personally have something wrong with them instead of like, we live in systems that encourage people to sexually harm each other. Yeah. That make people not know how to get touch other ways that mm-hmm. You know, um, celebrate, uh, sexual boundary violation and violence. Like, like nobody came up with this on their own. And so when we only look at things through these individual lenses, like at, at best, it's just not a good solution. But at worst it actually like, like creates more of the exact same problem. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. It's what I always find [00:49:00] interesting just to have a meta moment. Is when I'm, you know, I was like reading your book, preparing for my meditation. I do like a free monthly meditation. And it was, it was like chakra clear out, so focused on the voice. Mm-hmm. You know, I was talking about silence and, um, and then what happens in my sessions with clients, right? Mm-hmm. And often there are these, there are these, they, they're these perfect overlaps of, of themes that, that tend to happen. It's always so interesting to me. And one of the things that entered the space this week was conversations about, um, you know, there's the continuum. There's sexuality, but there's sensuality. And how do we find ways to invigorate our own aliveness and, uh, connect with like, pleasure in the world? You just related to the notion that we don't. We really back to this, the thought of decentralizing romantic relationships or monogamous, you know, like, we're gonna [00:50:00] get all our needs met from this one person. Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And how do we actually relate to ourselves and, you know, our own sexuality. If we're not in partnership, how do we relate to the, the world? , And still allow that aliveness to flow through us. , And one of the things I appreciated about your book, because you can feel if you're reading a relationship book and you wanna be in a relationship, but you're single there, there's all sorts of ways you can make yourself wrong and bad, right? Dean Spade: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And one of the things that you do that I think is very valuable is that you're like, you can do this with a partner this way, or you can do it with yourself this way. And I think there needs to be a lot more of that, like building that internal relationship to self. Dean Spade: Yeah. And you can also do things with so many different kinds of friends. I mean, one of the things I'm really pushing for in the book is like if we move away from the romance myth and the idea that your life is only worthwhile if you have this one kind of relationship, and that's what makes us happy. [00:51:00] And your life is empty if you don't have it, and you should hold onto it. Even it's bad, makes you feel bad because there's a scarcity and you know, you should ditch all your friends for it and you should ditch what you believe in or move really far away for it. Like the idea that this is the most important thing and you end up in this community of two. And so many of the romance self-help books are like, this is where everyone gets their needs met these days. So we're just gonna focus on, it's like, or we can really say to each other. Will be so much more. Well, like if I'm trying to get all my needs met by you, I'm more likely to feel a lot of resentment and disappointment. Whereas if I'm just like, wow, I love talking to Charna, my, you know, partner about these ideas that we have in common. But I have this friend who I really go to with this part of my mm-hmm. Stuff. And this friend supports me and this area and this friend and I love this activity together. And if we're not threatened by each other, having a really robust promiscuous support system, which is so good for each other. And if we can feel, the only thing I always say is like, can we treat our lovers more like friends and our friends, more like lovers? Like mm-hmm. I want to treat my lover more like a friend. Like I wanna want what's best for you [00:52:00] instead of wanting to control you. And I want to like seek consent instead of being like, no, we're going to the restaurant. I want Charna. You know, like, I wanna like, you know, not go into mm-hmm. Those very normalized modes. And I want to treat my. Friends, more like lovers and bring that specialness and have a friend adversary and have a sleepover and bring more physical touch and bring more of that kind of like care. And I hear from people at every event I do, I end up meeting some people who are like, you know what? I am a middle-aged woman and I'm not partnered and people, because everyone's so partnered, I'm not getting that specialness anywhere. Mm-hmm. Like, that's special. Like, nobody really wants to do that with their friends as much as I want them to, you know what I mean? Like, people who are, who are ready to socialize in a more loving way and take care of each other more, which would benefit everyone. Partnered or unpartnered. And I, I really am hearing that like there's a, you know, there's, uh. Like, what does it mean? I, I noticed this a lot. I, I live in a kind of alternative household where it's like [00:53:00] mm-hmm. I live with two moms and their two kids and my partner, and we are all, we all have like, you know, we all are a family, right? Mm-hmm. Then we like own this house together and a bunch of us have the same fake last names, spade or whatever, and we. A lot of people are like, I wanna do that, what you guys have. Mm-hmm. Because it makes it so much better for the parents. Like they can go out, they could go away when the kids really like, could go away and the kids would have an uninterrupted, um, you know, uh, routine and like, it was just, you know, they could go out dancing or whatever. Mm-hmm. Everyone's like, that's a better way to parent. But then when it comes down to it, people don't stick to their friends that well. Like we had to all make certain sacrifices to, to live in the same place and not take certain jobs that were other places or not go to school somewhere else. You know, like there was some level of mm-hmm. Committing to each other that people would usually only do with lovers. That's right. And it's like, especially I see this around parenting, like parenting is intensely difficult and everyone deserves so much more support than they have, but most people, even if they say they're gonna show up for, for their friends when they have kids, like actually don't really do that. Yeah. Because, you know, like they wanna leave or move, which is fine, everyone should do what they [00:54:00] want, but like, there's a reason we don't have more of that stuff happening. And it's about like, I. Treating our friends more like lovers, I think sometimes, you know? Mm-hmm. And being willing to like, make big commitments to each other if we want to. And also I think everyone should like, break up with anything whenever they want, of course. Mm-hmm. But I think there's like a, the pa, the well-worn pattern is the partnership pattern. That's right. , And that feels like it's, , it's really harmful. Charna Cassell: Well, and it's the, it's the belief system, right? It's all, it's just like, it's the foundation and, um, cultural norm even for people who live outside of those, those norms. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I have friends who are, um, who are non-monogamous or that are poly, and I have very much that desire and vision and have always, since I was a teenager, prioritize my friendships in romantic ways, in non-sexual relationships. And, and the tricky thing is finding like-minded people, not just that whole, that value, but then maybe, you know, like how spiritual [00:55:00] perspective, lifestyle, you know? Mm-hmm. Similarities. And, and then have time like in, in the Bay area Right. Rather than like living in a small town where there isn't so much, , vibrant activity occurring. Mm-hmm. So many things to do, so many activities to engage in. , And so I absolutely, I experienced that personally and I witness it. I, I hear it in my office from clients that are not partnered , and yeah, I, and I still hold that value. I still hold that, the, the, the possibility of. Mm-hmm. But it does, it feels like so much has to structurally change around people's belief systems mm-hmm. To prioritize things in a different way. Dean Spade: Yeah. The current structure is like totally isolates. Parents makes their relationships. There were love relationships, which people usually should have kids terrible. I mean, one thing I recommend is that people wanna have kids, which I think most people really should double, double check that. 'cause it's, you know, the, um, the cultural mythology, the romance around that, and the idea of how, what it'll be like versus what it is actually like in this culture. [00:56:00] And the number of existing families who could use our support if we want to support children. But for those who do choose, do that, I really recommend people do it not with a lover. Mm-hmm. Because that is one of the most volatile relationships we all have, and we all see that. Yep. Like do it with somebody who you might, who might be able be little better suited to like, care about what's good for you and like, share things more equally and like, not get lost in certain narratives that make us, um, like not ideal. Coworkers in like Yeah. The world's hardest projects. And I think doing it with as many people around as possible, you know, really, really helps people as well. But it's hard to live that in a society where people are isolated and don't value friendship, and we all have to work too much, and the rents are so high and like, you know, there's so much going on. Charna Cassell: Well, and even just having a dog as a single dog parent, I mean, that's the thing for me, I joke with people that I'm like, the two apps, if I could create apps, I'd create a dog share app and a garden share app. Yeah. Right. Like, those are the people that I wanna have, like, I wanna be able to, to collaborate with and get support and share these things that, of [00:57:00] beauty and love and cuddles and, you know, with my dog we're we're, we're needing to end and I also, if, if there's any kind of practice, given the themes in the book, if there's a practice that you'd like to share with the listeners, I would love to hear that. Dean Spade: Yeah. Two things. One is the other day, I, I've just, for the last few days I've been really focused on this, this, this Buddhist three words. Everything is impersonal. Everything is imperfect and everything is impermanent. That really helps me mm-hmm. When I'm struggling with other people and myself and the world. But the other fact, I'll just name, just 'cause I feel like we've been talking about it a lot while we've been on this conversation is, um, the one in the book, what else is true? Where when you're having that thing where you're hyper-focused on mm-hmm. The person you're mad at in the group, or you're the thing your lover friend did or whatever. I, the way I drew it in the book is like a circle within a circle. So in the small circle you write, you know, Charna looked at me mean in the meeting and she thinks I'm terrible, whatever, you know? And then in the bigger circle it's like, what else is true? And I do three things. First. What else is true [00:58:00] about the kind of person or group I'm focused on? Like, what else did about Charna? Oh, Charna, what's there for me? Went up to jail and, um, you know, cares about this. The, you know, violence is the same way I do and has, you know, whatever. Anything else I or is going is really tired right now, or, you know, whatever else I, I know about you that might help me undo that hyper focus that we were talking about. The second one is, but the same thing of what I'm, you know, puzzling about and sleep sleepless over in the little circle, in the big circle. What do I not know? I don't know what, what was really happening for you that night or like what you're going through or what other people in the group might think about me or, you know, whatever else. I don't know. Just to remind myself, there's a lot going on here that I don't know, and I might be making up stories about what words meant or looks meant or silence meant. And the third one is, , what else is true about me? What other people do I have in my life? What other experiences do I have? What are, what other, , supports do I have? Like, who does think I'm an okay group member or an okay boyfriend or whatever the story, you know? And so that I can be like, it's just about moving that, that tunnel vision that you were, you kept making [00:59:00] this, , this with your hands as we spoke. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what it feels like. Mm-hmm. And then after that, I have people do one side of the page. You write things that I can, yeah. Control. And the other side you write things I can't control. Mm-hmm. So that you're just like, I what I can control, doing my tasks for the group, cleaning up after the dog, getting some good sleep last tonight or whatever, you know, things I can't control what other people think of me, et cetera, et cetera. Rip it in half, burn one side of it, you know. And then the final thing is asking ourselves a few questions about what, about what might be historical. Does this feel like a familiar role that I'm in? Am I remembering something from one of my family members or something at school when I was young? Like, is there anything here? And can I care for that part of me that's scared in the way I once was, or angry in the way I once was, or feel silenced or feel care giving or whatever. Whatever's coming up. And I think that that exercise just, you know, whenever you feel, whenever something's, when you're losing sleep over it. Mm-hmm. That exercise can move us into finding some self-generated safety. [01:00:00] Finding some compassion for the person or people who we're struggling with and, and just coming down a little bit from that, like really intense activation that's, you know, robbing us of sleep or making us obsess over Charna Cassell: mm-hmm. Dean Spade: You know, something we can't control. Charna Cassell: I love that. I think that's a great exercise. And I am, do you do this with your law students or this is like separate workshops? Like where, when have you had people do this? Because I lo I'm like, I wanna go to law school with you. Dean Spade: I don't do this with my law students. Sadly, I would. I wish the law school was like that. No, I do a lot of workshops for, for groups, uh, you know, like doing Palestine work or doing mutual aid projects. Like, that's what I said most of my time doing is supporting like small groups of people, you know, five to hundreds of people. Trying to like, do something in their community. Mm-hmm. And then running into all these problems of working together and wanting to skill up together so that they can work together in a more sustained way. Charna Cassell: Yeah. It's a, I mean, it's just incredible. I wanna, I wanna say thank you for writing the book. 'cause I think it's a, I think it's an important [01:01:00] book. And it's a useful book. And it does cover like the exercise, the forgiveness practice that your therapist had. You do. I was like, I hope your therapist read the book and was like, yes, score. 'cause reflective listening is that, is that practice. Like you just basically, you took all the tools, you put 'em in one little book and it's, you know, put it in your little suitcase and there you go. , So good job. I'm glad you, thank you so much for reading that you stuck through it and you got to the other side and produced it and, you know. Oh, wait. One last important thing. How can our listeners find you? Where, where are you, what are your links? All of that. Dean Spade: Yeah. I am on some different kinds of blue sky, some different kinds of media, like Blue Sky, Instagram, , TikTok, um and my, I have a, I have tons of stuff like workshops and stuff like that at deansspade.net. Like if people wanna watch videos of workshops with their slides about how to do it yourself, , all of my stuff is like aimed for rebuild to reproduce it on their own, so. Charna Cassell: Thank you. Thank [01:02:00] you for your time. Dean Spade: Yeah. Thank you so much for all of your work. It's so cool to find all of our overlaps. It makes me happy. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Good to meet you. Dean Spade: Good to meet you too. Charna Cassell: I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Dean and feel like his book is really readable and important for everybody. And yes, there's language that's specifically inclusive to have it not feel so alienating for. Queer, trans, non-monogamous people. And this feels like a book that really could be read by everybody and is particularly friendly for young folks because of the way that it's written, even in physical form. If you appreciated this episode, you can like rate. Review and share it with your friends. I'd appreciate that. If you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at LaidOPEN Podcast. That's [01:03:00] L-A-I-D-O-P-E-N-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. If you go to charnacassell.com, you can sign up for my newsletter where you can receive discounts and you'll be the first person to receive certain resources and information about upcoming events. At passionate life.org, you can get more information about my private practice if you're interested in working with me as a client, and you can learn more about my approach to healing. This has been LaidOPEN Podcast. I'm your host, Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Until next time.