Show Notes
Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Welcome back to late open podcast. This is Charna Cassell and this week's guests both have been on the podcast before. I think they're brilliant and engaging and interesting humans. Mark Walsh, who's the host of the embodiment podcast, as well as an embodiment coach and trauma trainer. And Christian Branscombe does, , facilitation of restorative justice with victims and offenders of violent crime. And as well as, uh, coach who does shadow shame and trauma work. I promise you it's a super engaging and interesting and unusual conversation to get to hear about, , experiences of working inside prison as well as in a war torn country. So, , I hope you enjoy this episode and that you find it, um, educational welcome, both of you.
[00:01:00] Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new.
Mark Walsh: Nice
to see you again, Jenna.
Charna Cassell: Yeah,
good to see both of you. Today I'd really love to discuss each of your work, and as it relates to the experience of vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue, which I think, you know, post COVID we are saturated with, and then dealing with what's happening in the world in, um, in so many ways, it's just escalating, [00:02:00] and yeah.
How are you today? First of all, let's just start there.
Christian Branscombe: I mean, for myself, I'm doing great, you know, I've, I've, uh, just recently, you know, moved to a different state and I'm kind of getting settled in, but I love the change of pace and the environment. So just glad to be here and, and, uh, in good company.
Mark Walsh: Well, I've mentioned I got rained on. I'm on my third pair of socks today.
I'm experiencing that the intense trauma of a British summer, though I have, have just got back from a romantic week by Lake Como. So this is the, um, uh, the duality of life, um, in terms of weather reports. So yeah, a mix, but mostly pretty good.
Charna Cassell: And that sounds like a super resourcing weekend before having a conversation about compassion fatigue.
Mark Walsh: Yeah, I mean, I have good taste in Italian girlfriends and Italian food and Italian countryside. So it was tough, but someone had to, you know, suffer that to bring the [00:03:00] knowledge forward.
Charna Cassell: You survived. I'm so glad because you would have been missed.
So a big part of your work, for instance, Mark has been doing training with people in the Ukraine around, , trauma education and, , My understanding is being first responders and , and so how does, how have you seen vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue show up?
Mark Walsh: Yeah, um, so if you're around fucked up people, you will get fucked up. Okay, that's, that's as simple as that. You can reduce that, you can become more aware of that, you can reduce the impact of that, and you can deal with that once it's happened. , We are empathic creatures, assuming no one here is a psychopath, and I'm pretty sure we're not.
, and we will naturally empathize with people. And somatically, we do take on board bits of other people's body. That's the mechanism for that. So, you know, I see you, and we're different, we're in a different time zone, different gender, different, you know, place, but different personalities. But a little bit of me responds to you.
As we talk, um, now, if [00:04:00] a little bit of you is traumatized and fucked up, that's gonna, technical terms, obviously I'm using the clinical terms here, um, that's gonna impact me. And that could impact as something as simple as tension in my body. Like I've come out of trainings in Ukraine, just really sore shoulders.
Like, why are my traps so tense? You know, like I've been in the gym all day or something. Uh, it could be weirder than that. , it could be, you know, spiritual things, emotional things, , cynicism is one I've seen a lot. It's partly cultural as well. I picked up a Jewish sense of humor working in Israel, um, and, uh, you know, my own Irish background kind of as part of that and the cynicism in Ukraine is, um, You know, can be part of it.
That's usually one of the wide call it. We have a system of orange flags and red flags, and it's things we do that might be, you know, the kids talk about this in dating, right? You know, what's an orange flag or a red head flag? Sorry, red flag, Charna. And we will say like, hey, orange flag might be I starting a lot of sugar.
So there's one for me. If I'm. around traumatized people. I said, Oh, I'm self medicating. I don't normally [00:05:00] eat a lot of sugar. That's interesting. That's a little orange flag, like be careful. Uh, and then we have the red flags, which are like, Hey, if you start doing that, like I'm a recovering alcoholic, I've been sober long term.
If I start seriously considering a drink, it's time for me to get out of that environment and, you know, cut back on what I'm doing. And then we have green flags as well, that positive thing.
Charna Cassell: Well, one thing that you said, Mark, that I think is important is, you know, what the orange flags are, are going to be different for each person.
Right? Like there might be
Mark Walsh: Yeah, I
sit my trainers down and work it out. We work it out with them. What's your orange flag? Because it's someone who eats a lot of sugar normally, that's not a problem for them. It's just a part of their abnormality. And it can be hyper or hyper almost anything.
Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Exactly.
Christian Branscombe: Well, I've found with some of the work that I've done, at least in the beginning, especially, I, I would get unknowingly overwhelmed, and then when I had to kind of like go back and go like, hold on a second here, this is, I'm taking this home with me, uh, I had to really reflect on, for me, there was like two [00:06:00] aspects of it.
When I had the compassion for the situation, but I was powerless. Then that was me struggling with my control issues of something and really trying to reframe that in a way to understand, like, I'm not here to influence this. I'm here to, you know, accompany this person or, or give them the opportunity to change their path.
And for me to reframe that took a little while because it really was about wanting to control the situation. Which you can't do. And I think that that's one form of the, the vicarious trauma with it, where you're like, you, you, you know, you're taking on things that aren't yours to take on. The other thing is that, you know, sometimes I would find when they're triggered, it's hitting one of my triggers, you know, it's like, it's a life experience that I relate to or it's, and sometimes it's very subtle.
So I ended up kind of like unconsciously taking that away and I'm focusing on them, but I'm actually working on my own stuff. Right. So like, it's like trying to find that nuance in it to where I can be self aware enough, at least as a coach to [00:07:00] go, this is their stuff and this is my stuff. And then really know how to approach that, uh, properly.
Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Yeah. And and so I would like to just jump in and make a few distinctions and then move forward. But in terms of compassion fatigue, it's like this physical and emotional erosion over time, like a slow erosion of, um, and in it. Inability and, uh, to refuel and re regenerate yourself and otherwise something like secondary trauma, um, and vicarious trauma can happen from a single incident, which I think is important.
And so you're, you're both working in environment, you've worked in environments and situations that make more sense to me around compassion fatigue versus a singular incident, right? You're repeatedly being exposed to other people's trauma. , as well as potentially your own.
Christian Branscombe: And I'll, and I'll add one more thing that kind of came to mind as you were talking is that, [00:08:00] um, there's another layer to it too, when a lot of times to, to have an emotional impact or to get somebody else to open up emotionally, sometimes we have to tap into our emotions, right? And so we, we have to relive something or call something up that is emotional for us.
And I think that that's another aspect to it, depending on the type of client you have. Some people want it to be a sterile and kind of clean cut. Other people need to do the deep dive and really feel their way through it. , you know, I think that when you watch them feel it, you know, vicariously, you're going through it.
But then there's that, you know, that other layer where you're, you know, if you have to call up some of your history to trigger them, then that's, that's another thing you might carry away from it, you know, unintentionally.
Charna Cassell: Let's give a little context. Christian doing, um, facilitating restorative justice between victims and offenders of violent crime. Right. So just to give you a snapshot of what he's referring to in terms of, , you know, what you might be bringing up [00:09:00] to create an experience of empathy for an offender when he's sitting with a victim, for instance.
Christian Branscombe: And a lot of the work that I did, especially when I was inside, was related around, , amends. And one of the hardest barriers to get somebody into a place of true amends is taking responsibility. Ownership of an action when it's so consequential and you're removable, usually, you know, you can't take it back or mitigate it in some way.
That's valuable enough to, to hit the charts. You know, it's, it's a very intense thing to go through. So a lot of times the person coaching is definitely going to have to take the deep dive with them because they're. in complete darkness, they're not physically aware of themselves, they're not aware of their, their triggers, or how they actually bared responsibility to this, because they've always been projecting that onto somebody else.
You know, they've, they've, with shame especially, it's always, they feel like they're being attacked because they're [00:10:00] so insecure and sensitive from the trauma. That they then react and think that they're defending themselves when they're actually attacking somebody, right? So it's, it's a very subtle thing to, to get that person to embody that and understand their responsibility.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. This is another thing that interests me is, you know, like Mark, where you were coming from in terms of experience, being compelled to go to Ukraine versus Christian, you were, you know, you were an inmate, right? You were. starting this work from the inside. And so you're, you're beginning places in terms of like what compelled you to do the work that you're doing.
It might seem straightforward, but if you'd like to speak to that
Mark Walsh: I mean, honestly, I think if you meditate a lot, you realize you're not really. Conscious of your actual motivations. So when everyone's, people speak about their motivations, at best, they're doing some kind of bad PR job.
Um, and we, we could assume most of our motivations for doing [00:11:00] things are pretty pathological. I think if we're really honest and, you know, if I look back on what motivated me to do anything 10 or 20 years ago with hindsight, you know, it's, it's usually not quite the PR job I gave at the time. what thing that certain with the Ukraine, I mean, I grew up around trauma and conflict, so I've always felt quite at home in trauma and conflict.
I think there's also almost a mystical piece here that I always knew that I was destined for a war and that used to confuse me because I'm not a soldier and I don't feel inclined towards learning to shoot guns and things particularly. And then the Ukraine situation happened and my first instinct was actually to go fight.
And I said, okay, cause I, you know, I married to someone from Ukraine. I've been there many times. I have a lot of links there. I speak some Russian and Ukrainian and, , with the full scale invasion. Cause I had already worked there for some years with the previous, uh, smaller invasions, and I spoke to a friend of mine, Alex, and he said, well, Mark.
If you go fight, you're not a very good soldier, and you'll probably get shot pretty quick. But you know quite a lot about trauma education, so maybe you should go teach that instead. And [00:12:00] I thought, that's smart! Thank you, Alex! Uh, and honestly, I've, I was definitely had that sense of, um, the Vikings used to call it following your weird.
There's a sense of sort of life purpose. And it's, it's a mixture, you know, we could look at it kind of in terms of a psychological compelling, but I think there's a bit more to it than that. There's a, there's places we're meant to be, times and places we're meant to be. You know? I, if you look at any picture of me teaching in Ukraine, I've never looked happier, you know, even if I'm in a bomb shelter, cold and quite a lot of physical pain at the time, it's a sciatica problem.
I actually just look very, very happy because I'm very, very on purpose. Um, and I was just very well qualified, you know, like I, I, about that work and personality wise, you know, it was, I'm sort of irresponsible enough to go into a fairly fresh war zone, not knowing what I'm doing and start something useful.
So, um, I think a mixture of qualifications and irresponsibility would be, um, uh, my answer.
Charna Cassell: Thank [00:13:00] you.
Christian Branscombe: Oh my goodness. That's good stuff. I, I know for me, it was. It was really just being unhappy with myself, you know, I was in a, you know, prisons of, in general, the war zone pretty much every day as far as, you know, the volatility is always there, whether it's pointed at you or not, you're always coping with, you know, that psychologically and preparing for it and you get this hyper vigilant type of mindset, which is necessary in there to really, you know, live at all.
You know, after about maybe 10 or 15 years in, I really realized like I had exhausted all of the, what I call shame ethics, meaning, you know, like all of the things that I thought would fix me or doubled down on the wrong way to do it, or just really, you know, tore my life and other people's lives apart doing negative stuff.
I really realized that like, I was going to have to make actionable steps. Now I stopped being like super aggressive probably about five years in. Mind you, I went, you know, I was 19 when I got arrested. I spent, you know, took me [00:14:00] a while to grow up a little bit. But once I did, I really didn't have, um, guidance, you know, in that way, that wasn't a popular trend in there to be introspective and, you know, find, you know, some type of wellbeing.
And I'm not even sure if I knew that was possible, but, you know, as Mark said, I, I, I started meditating. I got into Buddhism. I started really looking at psychology, philosophy, theology, you know, like it is explored what was meaningful to me and started going through that. And I think, you know, haphazardly through that, I found that.
I couldn't get away from myself and that I was the problem. It took me a while to really have that epiphany. But that's what motivated me. You know, as a person that was, you know, given life without the possibility of parole and was gonna die in prison, the one thing I had was a sense of integrity or honesty about who I was.
Whether that was a bad guy or a good guy to somebody else, that's not the question. Like, I lived under a standard of, well, I need to be able to look myself in the mirror and [00:15:00] am I being honest with myself? And that very simple narrative led me step by step to really going like, do I really feel this way?
Why do I act this way? Or what am I getting out of it? You know, and at some point I finally related to the other people in the situation. I had gone through enough of the trauma and finally connected. To a few other people in a real way and then I realized like, oh my goodness I'm carrying a debt is what I'm carrying.
I'm carrying a sense of responsibility that I need to make amends for and I think the real digging started then as far as like I really had to Consider other people's experiences. I had to look at my impacts. I had to really step outside of the world I was in and, and do it for its sake alone. Cause there was no plus to it.
Matter of fact, there were a lot of negatives for that, you know, being honest about things that you've done that people aren't forgiving of, you know, and where it came from, which is always ugly, you know, so like [00:16:00] it, it, it was a, it was a gut punch to really step into that ring. But that's what ultimately carried me to the finish line.
What I think that pushed me a level above what I saw other people do was that I measured the accountability to the people I'd harmed and that I was willing to do more for them than I really was even to do for myself. So that, that's what pushed me further.
Charna Cassell: Do you think that, In doing the work that you're doing, like facilitating that kind of understanding for, for offenders, and communication with, with victims, that someone who's had your experience is, , gonna do a better job of it?
Like, what, do you think that that's a, an essential component in doing that work?
Christian Branscombe: I think people could get there, you know, just doing it the way I did, which took a long time because you're kind of, stumbling through it and finding what you find and there's no real clear direction, you know, it's, it's a lot better when you have a target you're [00:17:00] aiming at, like this is the clear next step.
Let's be introspective and define that, you know, and it really, , helps the journey be more, , complete and, , isn't so time consuming, you know, so I wouldn't say it's proprietary to only people that have gone through it, but I would say that it instinctively, you're in tune with where that person is at.
And what they can handle and may not be able to handle. Now, everybody's got different thresholds, but I think you're, that we're reading those signs very clearly from an intimate perspective of having felt them and gone through the process.
Charna Cassell: And Mark, like for, for both of you, do you feel like the spirituality, this kind of kind of zoomed out perspective , Was a resource for you or for any form of protection in the work that you're doing like, , to prevent vicarious trauma.
Do you think that there's such a thing as like, you know, like, you know, what's been your experience there in terms of your direct experience of vicarious [00:18:00] trauma and, , compassion fatigue and what, what were the resources? for you in that?
Mark Walsh: Yeah, I mean, I was training teams to do trauma first aid. So for example, they would be at, um, I don't know, Lviv railway station while a whole bunch of refugees came in who had homes had just been blown up in the east or whatever.
So, you know, how to avoid vicarious trauma was absolutely part of the training. Um, you know, that was one of the main things I was looking at because I wanted that team to be sustainable. And then I had, you know, two years of supervising that team. So we also saw what worked, what didn't work. And, um, you know, sometimes it was as simple as getting the girls out.
So, you know, the women can leave the country. So they'd go to Cyprus or Poland for a week. And I just see their face totally change on the zoom call. And I'd be like, Oh, you're not in, you're not in Ukraine, are you? They'd be like, no, no, I'm in Cyprus with my uncle. I'd be like, oh cool, hi. You know, just giving them respite from that.
And then there's a few, there's this cog, this spiritual pieces, like we used to do two hours of meditation and somatic practice a day. [00:19:00] Just to get everyone regulated enough to learn. So we feel like if we're doing eight or a 10 hour learning day and half of that's in a bomb shelter, so everyone's stressed right now, people don't learn that well when they're that stressed.
So just, I mean, we ended up doing other trainings in Poland because we were like, this is so much easier when you're not getting bombed. Like, cause people can just are in learning mode rather than survival mode, you know, different part of their brains lay up. So we would use, you know, two hours of dance and meditation and somatic practice, lots of centering every day, just to keep people somewhere near their window of tolerance where they could learn something rather than just be surviving.
So that was an essential part of the training and, you know, they, are you. everybody walked away with a whole suite of self regulation practices, you know, whether it was TRE or EFT or centering, you know, somatic practices, encouragement to do martial arts or different kinds of, you know, I'd go to the gym most days.
So it was a local EMDR trainer who would teach after lunch, Oxana, and I would just go and lift [00:20:00] weights while she was , you know, teaching her part of the day. That was part of my daily routine as a trainer. , but there's other things I mean, we talk a lot about well being. I'm pretty intense with them about things like sleep.
So, you know, I'll, the team would turn up and I'll be like, right, how many hours sleep did everyone have last night?
Charna Cassell: And it
Mark Walsh: was like, okay, who had an air alarm? You don't count. Okay, you didn't have an errant arm. Why are you holding up five fingers and not eight? You know, I'd get really strict with them about like simple physiological stuff as well.
And we just developed a culture where it was really normal. We talk about our sex lives in case anyone had got like, you know, hypo or hypersexual. I've heard some stories from all these young Ukrainian women, but their boyfriends, it's, uh, it's something you can't unhear. , but we talk about their food, their drugs, how much they're smoking, which is really normal, their alcohol use, of course.
Uh, so, you know, we'd look at all these factors of healthy and unhealthy, coping mechanisms, but also ritual stuff like, , they'd come out of a training and I'd supervise them and I'd be like, okay. Did you wear those clothes in the [00:21:00] training? They're like, yes. I'm like, why haven't you had a shower and change your clothes?
Like, you know, daddy says that's not okay. You know, so it's Trauma Daddy was my name. It sounds worse than it is. , so, um, like, like, like, like different like routines and things like the handwashing and the showering and, you know, various practices. , it's a bit of a download because there's a whole.
I'm thinking of a lot of different stuff from the spiritual, to the physical, to the emotional, even to like, I don't know, doing stuff in pairs and debriefing properly. Like, I, like, do not do trainings on your own. They do them in pairs and afterwards they go sit in a cafe and they debrief the training and maybe vent that one participant was annoying or, you know, let something go they need to talk about a little bit.
Peer support, there's loads more I can talk about, but not gonna take all the time.
Charna Cassell: But so, I mean, that, that's the thing that there's, you created very important structures because when you're in the kind of soup of trauma, which can get, you know, one of the symptoms is this, is this hazy brain fog and fatigue [00:22:00] that having things that, that you do repeatedly and consistently, it's like, Oh, when you're actually in it and you're out of your window, you're more likely if you've repeated something, , to, to draw on it.
Right. To have it once it's more embodied. It's like, Oh, okay. That's a resource that I can kind of remember. Right.
Mark Walsh: Yeah. I mean, and also it's very normalized to talk about nervous system health, like Steve Borgias actually supported the project and, you know, zoomed in and I have some training with him and Deb Stainer a little bit.
And. You know, became very normalized to sort of discuss the state of people's nervous systems. You say, yes, there's regular practices. And then also the outside person, because things get normalized, like certain kinds of humor or certain types of jokes. And then, you know, we'd have a call with an outside person.
They'd be like, ah, we've all gotten fucked up. We've got these really dark senses of humor, or we've, we've normalized this thing we're talking about. And like, Oh, okay. There's a normal person here. And then we'd, they'd be feel different. And you know, you talk about behaviors. So, I mean, in some ways it's quite good that I was [00:23:00] supervising from out of the country as well, because I wasn't in the same soup.
A lot of the time I'd be on calls with them and my job was just cheering them up, you know, just be a little bit of mood regulation, you know, up regulation, or listen to them, you know, talk about their mom, they've just had an argument with just, you know, basic stuff that they needed a bit of support with normal people, because they're young women, you know, they've got boyfriend problems and mom problems and, you know, stuff like that.
But yeah the practices are, are definitely a key part of it.
Charna Cassell: And, and so Christian, for you, without that kind of, um, infrastructure, I'm curious how, what does self preservation, self care look like? Like, what are you doing for yourself? What are you teaching the people inside this program?
Christian Branscombe: Well, it's kind of interesting because as he was, you know, Mark was talking about some of, uh, the experiences there, I was relating it to where we found those things inside, which, you know, they, they put you on really long, uh, lockdowns in prison, you [00:24:00] know, so you might stay in a 10 by three foot cell with two beds, the desk.
And I mean, you have very, like, shoulder width is about the length of the floor space in between that and the toilet, uh, for a year. You know, you might be in there for a year straight, the food comes to the door, you know, you bathe in your house, like you, you live in that box for a year, um, with another human being, you know, so it's, um, I've seen people lose their mind under those conditions, uh, the isolation, especially if they're by themselves can be, uh, very traumatizing for some people, and I remember when I first came in, uh, uh, some of the older guys educated me, they're like, look, routines are what are going to save you in here.
And he says, when you go through your first big lockdown, you're going to see people come out and they're not the same. And after you go through three or four of those, you might not be here anymore. You know, so, where suicide's a big prevalent thing in prison, and, you know, people that just get psychotic and lose their mind and take it out on other people, and mental illness in general is a big thing in there, you know, so.
You know, I learned very early [00:25:00] that, you know, I had to get up and I had to do three major things. I had to take care of my body, work out, keep clean. I had to take care of my mind and keep it engaged with new things coming in. You know, I had to stimulate it with thought and actions and that I had to have things that were.
Frivolous, you know, things that were, were introspective and, and kind of where I, what I call spirituality, which is like really doing a, an inventory of yourself, meditating, finding out where you're at and what you're thinking and feeling on a deeper level. So when I would coach people in there, a lot of times spiritual things are very traumatizing.
You know, a lot of people have been traumatized through religion, you know, so a lot of us in the. Transcribed Doing what we call a spiritual path versus a, you know, You know taking on a religion only because there's so much trauma in a lot of religions, right? And it can be triggering when you're processing somebody.
So I would coach it in, you know I would try to reframe it to them that kind of like a [00:26:00] koan is for a Zen Buddhist, right? Like the thing that you're facing right now is a koan that's gonna allow you to become more enlightened. It's going to liberate you It's a challenge because this has entered your life And when you overcome this, you become the person you want to be or you're meant to be, right?
So it's, it's a journey. It's a quest, you know, and when you reframe it in that context, it's not that you're a damaged person or that you're not normal or you're not broken. You're somebody that's trying to find their true self. And that this is the most honest endeavor you could take in your life is this introspective journey because if you can't be honest with yourself, how could you ever be honest with somebody else or really have true insight, right?
So for me, that's the way that we. That's the way I approach my whole practice is I try to get people to be honest with themselves, allow them the liberty, the freedom. You know, so many people are, they're not free. They're living with their grandma's [00:27:00] voice or their mom's voice or their dad's voice or, you know, like they're under another narrative inside of that head of theirs.
You know, we don't speak negative to ourselves. You know, I don't know if people really get that, but like, you know, if there's a negative narrative in your head, it's not yours. And no child, no child goes, I don't need milk or I shouldn't be cleaned up or like they cry for hella. Give it to me. I need this, you know?
We learn that we're undeserving, or it's demonstrated that we're undeserving, or that we feel undeserving, right? So, those narratives or those, those things that we carry are oftentimes things that we have to name and re address. You know, in the sense of like, well, this is my voice and this is that voice, so now we're going to shut that one up, or give it less credibility, right?
Or strengthen the voice that I never had, or whatever it is, you know, you have to reframe it. So a lot of my work is really around that. And that's why it's shadow work, because it's more about perceptions. It's more, it doesn't even have to be a real thing out in the real world, because it's absolutely real for [00:28:00] you.
If you've embodied it and are demonstrating it to yourself on a daily basis.
Charna Cassell: Right. What role do you think, um, self. self awareness and self compassion play in preventing, uh, compassion fatigue or vicarious trauma.
Christian Branscombe: I think not pushing people out. I think you, you have, there's this balance between finding, you know, a place outside of their comfort zone because you have to be outside of your comfort zone.
But much like Mark was describing, Creating what somebody that's usually in a state of trauma never thinks of, which is networking, having outside criticism or support, you know, like, like taking, you know, like thinking of it as a group effort, right? Because once we have shame or isolate ourselves, it's like, well.
I don't trust anybody. I only trust myself. That's the first narrative of like, you're fucked, right? It's like, okay, I have to do this by myself and nobody else is really trustworthy enough to go on this journey with me. Well, that's what the journey is about. So I always [00:29:00] challenge him to like, you know, peace, you know, tiptoe into that space, you know, don't trust somebody completely, give them a little trust, you know, or do this, you know, like reframe that narrative for yourself.
And see how you're contributing to it. A lot of times we pick people that are going to betray us, or we pick, we habitually do the things that hurt us, right? So we're, we're role playing it so that we can fix it, but we just keep repeating it versus adding on to it. Right. So it's like, okay, so now we're going to play it out, but this time we're going to have a different ending.
Right.
Charna Cassell: Well, and I also think about, . You know, in terms of being able to identify what is your orange flag or where, you know, am I overwhelmed? If you don't have that ability, if you hadn't trained in self, in self reflection and, and going inside, if you're having to be so vigilant that all you're doing is tracking what's happening outside of you, how do you know if you're starting to erode internally, you know, and break down?
Christian Branscombe: It's really true. And it's, it's hard to, [00:30:00] it's hard to, Intimate that to somebody else because they're so guarded that they can't even allow your, your feedback in, you know, they're just, they're buttoned up tight as they can get, you know? And so, uh, a lot of the times I would, I eventually stopped just offering things to people because two things would happen is that they would feel intimidated because you saw into something they thought they were hiding.
So that actually makes them more defensive. It's not helpful to be insightful sometimes. And secondly, , if they aren't asking, they're actually not listening. You know, so like, if they don't ask you for the help or they don't ask you for this direction, you're really not on the inside of that idea.
Charna Cassell: Right.
Mark Walsh: Nice. Yeah. I mean, self awareness is key, right? So a few aspects, like this is psychodynamic aspect, like, am I going to rescue a mode, you know? Um, kind of victim triangle stuff, obviously basic stuff for therapists, but like most aid workers, I've trained a lot of the major NGOs the, the, what would you call them?
Non governmental humanitarian organizations. [00:31:00] And , someone wrote a book called, uh, Misfits, Mercenaries, and Missionaries.
, we'd act that out in kind of fun ways, you know, like being like a hero mark going to Ukraine to help, you know, sort of, you know, act out and kind of, so it's play with it in a kind of fun way. So when you slipped into that mode, you'd notice, I mean, just somatically though, a lot of people will have all these kind of slightly esoteric models of energy and stuff like that.
But the actual key thing is to have enough body awareness training that you've got residual attention for body awareness. While talking to them. So I can talk to you guys, I can speak relatively coherently and feel my ass on the chair at the same time, right? Which, A, from the point of view of sort of centering self regulation is helpful, but it's also, is my body unconsciously starting to take on things?
Whether it be fight or flight, freeze, collapse, you know, the basic responses or repersonalized bits of other people. because that's me doing that. You know, that's my muscular [00:32:00] system. There isn't this thing reaching into me doing it. I mean, you can look at it through the lens of, um, you know, demons and spirits and Greek gods, and that actually can be very helpful.
You know, saints, we had nuns on our trainings I'm friends with a convent of nuns in Lviv now. I'm talking to one of them tomorrow, actually. Which is hilarious for me, but there's various models you can use. I used to go in there and eat pizza with them and the sort of young nuns I'm used to seeing young men would scuttle around giggling.
It was quite funny.
I think the somatic model is one of the most helpful. It's very practical. It's like, is my body taking on the shape? of someone who's traumatized. And you know, that for me is the basic, because if you can stop that, you won't really have a problem.
Charna Cassell: In my experience of sitting with individuals or couples is also, I mean, it can even get complicated with two people in the room, right?
Like I, I'm a, I experienced things very viscerally and kinesthetically and get information that way. So I, it [00:33:00] means I have to know what my body and my experience internally feels like. What's my baseline? What's my state? Before I've entered the space and then suddenly if I'm extremely fatigued, extremely grief struck, like I suddenly feel like I can't contain the amount of grief, my client could be laughing, but I'm suddenly feeling incredible grief.
It's like, well, wait a second. Am I feeling what? what's theirs to feel as they tell a story about some, you know, horrible thing, but they're laughing about it, right? And so in a room of people, you know, I'm picturing there's a lot happening in that space and suddenly it's like, okay, so what's mine? What's theirs?
What's, yeah.
Mark Walsh: That's a good question. I used to teach the girls that it's like, is this yours? Like, is this mine? Is this physicality? Is this emotion? Like, because usually you go, Oh no. You know, and then you can begin the process of letting it go, right? And various somatic techniques for that. Right.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Name, naming it. I have found over time, I'm just very explicit and I go, [00:34:00] suddenly I'm feeling this thing and you're laughing at, you're telling me a story about, you know, being beaten as a child. And I'm curious about that. And then, and then that, as soon as I name it, this, it goes, it leaves my body. And then usually that the person suddenly is able to claim it as theirs and like emote or.
Express it. It's been my repeated experience. Christian. Was there something you wanted to add?
Christian Branscombe: No, I was just, I agree with you. I think that it's, that's, that's the process. That's the way it goes.
Mark Walsh: Just as an aside, your prison system horrifies me, by the way. Absolutely terrifying.
I'd much rather be in Ukraine than an American jail. It absolutely terrifies me every time I hear about your prison system.
Christian Branscombe: Well, it's, I'm grateful to be outside of it. I'm a fortunate man. The worst thing you can do in there is grow up. Let me tell you, because for about 10 of those years, I was like, I do not agree or believe in this environment anymore.
And I can't get out of it. You know, so it was. It's, uh, it's kind of weird how much environment [00:35:00] dictates a lot of the things that you really do have to cope with, you know, and so it's, it's a privilege to be able to be out, walk away from problems or just, you know, be a decent human being is a, is a pleasure and a privilege, really.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. I was struck, , Mark, as you were sharing the range of resources, right, in comparison to what Christian, like what you're up against in there and even, you know, it's, , The amount of freedom mark that you had to get to do all these different things right to take care of yourself and to train people to take care of themselves and and Christian I'm wondering about as we have learned over the years around how trauma lives in the body and how even repeating a narrative can activate the nervous system and trigger A trauma response.
Curious how you've used that in the work that you've done. , because I'm picturing, like, even having victims listen to, or have to repeat their narrative. Like, how do you, how do you [00:36:00] know when something is not restorative justice and it starts to leak into re traumatization?
Christian Branscombe: Well, to me, it's pretty simple.
When something is traumatizing, it's not moving forward. So to me, moving forward is a reframe or a different feeling that's positive towards the goal that we have. Or, , there's an action. Associated with it outside of themselves, you know, I always see a psychological shift when we're actually getting some traction is the first time they asked me, which usually frankly takes a while, but what, you know, what about this other person, you know, like, like they actually consider somebody outside of their own experience is, , a really big moment.
In that process to me, you know, so I think that a lot of it really is just breaking down those those barriers with the person and the biggest thing that's hard to develop in there is a sense of safety. You know, because it's a very judgmental place, you know, if [00:37:00] somebody's done something that's distasteful to our standards on the inside, well, you will, you could get killed for real.
Like it's not an idea, like it's not public sentiment or, Oh, people are going to cuss me out. I mean, they're going to come stab your ass, you know, and you're not going to see it coming, you know? So there's this stress that's associated with being honest and the saying like, Oh, I did this awful thing. Well, if that's not acceptable, well then.
That, that gets locked in. About, towards the end of my journey in there, I really had a big epiphany about sexual trauma. Because, obviously, you know, a lot of us have been sexually traumatized. We tend to take that out on dudes in there that traumatized others, you know, like, and it's, it's something that I had to really reframe, because when I realized how essential Uh, and the process of addressing shame and how all inclusive it is and just how potent it is psychologically for us to carry this and how we process it, meaning how we re traumatize.
I realized that, I [00:38:00] felt that society holds one of the biggest standards for, for pedophiles and rapists because we don't want to hear their trauma. We don't want to process it, you know, and if we can't address it, it can't change. So there is this, and that is a lot of the work I feel that I do with people because I can truly be nonjudgmental with somebody and say like, you can give me your ugliest stuff.
I'm, I'm in a true coach's stance right now. There's no judgment. We're just looking at how we're going to get you to the human. We know you could be right. So like I'm looking at the, the, their potential versus how traumatized they were. Right. And so that narrative has to be addressed. It has to be focused on.
So a safe place or a safe, you know, uh, the way that I breed that in them and there is I would say, nobody's in your head. Only people can know what you share outside of it. So if you can't be honest with yourself. Then we can't do any of this. And I said, you don't have to [00:39:00] share it with me. You never have to write it down, but you have to know it.
So when I ask you where did this come from? Or what did you do, it needs to be up there. And I found personally that anything that's in there is gonna come out. Mm-hmm . Once they realize that there's no judgment or you share something equally, uh, vulnerable, you know, like they, they have the opportunity to really get that outta their system.
And ideas change us. And, and I can only give one example that's powerful enough to really intimate how much. I mean, how I really see how dynamic it is, is that when people had life without the possibility of parole, and they got commuted, which is a very, very rare thing historically. It's never happened until Jerry Brown did it.
I was one of a hundred that got it. It was, it was a huge deal. Hasn't, you know, it's, it's probably never going to be that way. You know, so you could see physically, they're, they're still in prison. They still have another year before they even have a chance to go home. They got to go to the board and all this other stuff.
their body, their mind, every aspect of [00:40:00] their existence changed with one idea shifting. No physical change. It's so powerful, our ideas are so powerful, and like, how they really do trigger a physical response and how we relate to the world.
Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Thank you. Wait, I saw you nodding and reflecting, Mark, what, what are you chewing on?
Mark Walsh: It's listening, it's a powerful story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, what is reality, right? So someone's in a cage.
Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
Mark Walsh: An
animal, an animal caught in a trap will tear its own leg off to get out of the trap, right? So there's, the urge to be free is pretty. pretty powerful. I get that with my own cultural background and personally, , it's a big fear for me to be locked up, I tell you.
But it's, and then the shift of a thing that isn't real in inverted commas, right? Like just being told, Hey, you might get out of here, right? That's a there's a way in which we live. [00:41:00] in this very real set of possibilities. So one, you know, for example, just take the Ukrainians, I'll extend their timeframe.
So I'll
say, Hey, we're going to have a fucking cool dance party in Kiev after the war.
And what are you going to wear? And it's like, all of a sudden it's like, ah, their sense of possibility is so different than they're just thinking. You know, because trauma tends to kind of make people very short term focused. So yeah, just thinking about that, I'm going to have to mull that on. It's a really great example actually of how something which is at some level not real is very, very tangible.
Christian Branscombe: And concepts. So imagine it's your self perception of yourself. You go, I'm not lovable. No one will love me. I'm not valuable. Like, you know, you might not put it in those words, but these are the feelings you have. If that idea changes in a real way, nothing outside you has changed, no other things are really changing.
But if that shifts, your life shifts. Everything in you shifts. You have the potential [00:42:00] for it, even if it's not there. And that's, I'm just saying, those ideas can be very impactful. And I, and that's a lot of times what I would focus on in there. Because one thing you don't have in prison is control.
Or anonymity. , or autonomy. You know, you might look at something through a fence you'll never touch. Ever in your life for 30 years, you know, like it's just, it's a, it's a weird thing, you know, you live on a football field and sometimes you get stuck in a box for long periods of time
you know, that's, that's the way it is,
Charna Cassell: and inside of that, like the, the, the, the moments where no matter what good work you're doing, no matter how much hope you have that compels you to, believe that people can change on a individual or systemic level, like, you know, I'm looking at your Obama poster behind you, right? And it says change. And, , I felt really moved, Mark, as you were Using that example of, you know, it's like, what are you gonna wear in this future moment?
So that, that, that part of what helps us get through these hard [00:43:00] times is the hope for a different possibility or having our perspective, we're like in the present moment, but we're also have our eyes in the, in, in our, our minds in the future of what could be. 'cause otherwise, if we're just stuck in this present moment, and that's all we experience.
you know, there's a, there can be this level of defeat and powerlessness. And so I'm curious, , in the moments of defeat and powerlessness, what have you, how have you helped others? That are moving through that state or also yourself where you go like there is no point to what I'm doing and this can't change
Mark Walsh: Well, that's my starting point, you know There's no point.
So you might as well have a good time. You might as well do your thing, right? Like like there's no point. I mean like this is a sort of Nietzsche and nihilistic surrender is not a bad starting point. And, and, you know, there's a few options there, right? Like, what did you get in the past? Like, I remember saying, sort of during COVID, [00:44:00] saying, this isn't unprecedented.
Like read more history. There's plenty of plagues we've been through or saying to a young man, he's like, I'll never get a girlfriend. I'm like, every single one of your ancestors got laid at least once, right? Like fact.
So it's like, it's like you can go to the past. Or you can go to detail, right? Like I remember being really worried during the Ukraine project and stressing.
And then I was like, you know, okay, what am I doing right now? I'm having sushi with five beautiful women who respect me. I was like, this could be a lot worse. You know, this is my lunch break, you know, with the team. And just to be clear, nothing was going with the team, but it was, you know, it's still a pleasant aesthetic experience.
Let's say, you know, to be having with these people. And so I think you can go mindful. You can go much more into the moment. And then also you can, you know, extend the futures. Like all of those are viable, but I mean, you know, I've been through waves of grief and grief process. And I, I certainly don't think it's healthy to try and get rid of grief, you know, like, like Christians lost half his life in a fucking [00:45:00] cage, you know, like there's, there's, there's like grief there.
Right. It's like, we've all had grief, like there's things that we can't get back, , and you can't make it okay. You know, like I got sent a picture yesterday of a man whose entire family has just been killed in Lviv. It's like three daughters, his wife, and he's the only survivor. And you know, I'm talking to the nuns who are talking to him, and there's nothing you can say.
Like, there is no CBT technique to reframe the loss of your three daughters and your wife. There's nothing, right? There's just sitting with someone, maybe, you know, and maybe the nuns will offer him some kind of faith based thing that might be very helpful. Maybe he doesn't believe and that's not available.
Yeah, yeah. We also make time for a good time, you know, like, like, like, I have dance parties on trauma trainings. Like, I'm easily the most fun trauma trainer out there. Like, like, most of my trauma trainings are mostly like, like, 80 percent stand up comedy. Like, Like, that's [00:46:00] particularly with the Ukrainians.
Mark Walsh: They love it. And, you know, the Ukrainian girls, they're working in groups of soldiers. And you know, the stuff they say is fantastic. One walks in, 200 soldiers, right? And they're looking at her like, who the hell is this young girl, you know, we've been told to be here by the officers, we'd rather be down the pub kind of thing, you know, we're having a day off, we want to be in a bar.
And she walks in and says, Hey, would you guys like to fuck your wives again in the future? And they were, they're like, what? And she's like, well, there's something called trauma that causes sexual dysfunction. So do you want to pay attention and learn about that? They're like, yes, ma'am. You know, like say like they've taken forward that like cheeky, like you're not gonna get that trauma workshop in Northern California, you know, it's, it's, uh, you know, like I feel like humor, it's very Irish.
My teacher is Jewish and I'm Irish. That's a big part of it. And making time for a good time as well as just admitting sometimes. Sometimes it's too bad, but you know, the Bhagavad Gita, the basic thing of it's not, it doesn't matter if you're winning or losing, it's your job to fight. Like it's your job to show up and do your thing, [00:47:00] right?
That's. That's your, you know, my Indian colleagues would just say that's your karma. That's what you do. Mm
Charna Cassell: hmm.
Mark Walsh: And I think that fatalism is actually quite beautiful.
Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Thank you.
Christian Branscombe: Yeah, it's kind of interesting as you describe that it reminds me that that's that's the way I see trauma in general is that I simplify it down to An idea that hasn't been contradicted so far which is trauma is a sense of disconnection and purpose and well being is a sense of interconnection, you know, and all systems of enlightenment or things that actually bring people to a place of well being, you know, have those tenants involved with it, right?
And I recently read a You know, a biologist book, named determined by Robert Sapolsky, and it was a really powerful narrative about free will, whether we have it or not, and this determined state that he believes things are in. And, and when you at least explore the idea, I don't know where people would fall on that side.
It's a controversial subject, but I will say exploring that idea gives you kind of a very Zen [00:48:00] approach to looking at life, that everything is exactly where it's supposed to be. and it's going to go where it's supposed to go, it's whether or not you're okay with it. You know, it's really the bottom line.
Your potential is your potential. You're going to play it out the way you play it out. There's really no other option to do than that. But along the way, are you going to resist and struggle and be exhausted and overwhelmed and feel disconnected when you still are intimately connected to all things, whether you like it or not?
It's like, can you sit in that space and be okay with it? And a lot of times when you're traumatized. You want to separate from everything. So the closer you get to the center, the closer you get to that person next to you or your environment or that self awareness, you know, the more it's, um, a place of wellbeing and purpose.
And I believe it's an insightful state. I believe it's a form of enlightenment to be able to be okay with whatever's happening as is, you [00:49:00] know?
Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. To be with your experience. rather than push it away or try to run away from it. Yeah.
Mark Walsh: It's
nice. But I like the connection side of things. We had a British journalist, Johan Hari, who wrote Lost Connections.
He breaks down to like 12 connections that are kind of lost in modernity. And we, we always used to break it down to four. We used to say, it's the little things, they remember it. You have to give like In a warzone you have to give stuff like kids games so people remember stuff. So we say self connection or self regulation, co regulation, eco regulation.
We're big, big on doing stuff in nature. And theo regulation, um, like, you know, regulation through meaning or spirituality. Um. Yeah, and that little mantra of those four, and I always used to say to the girls, if one isn't working, try one of the other three. Like right now I'm going to go for a walk out in nature because we've been talking about heavy shit and I want to just, you know, decompress.
So it's like, I just go walk by the, that's eco regulation, but then I'm having dinner with a friend that's co regulation and I've got, you know, weights and meditation [00:50:00] practice that's self regulation. Right?
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Regulate.
Mark Walsh: And, you know, the big, like talking about Christian beautiful words on acceptance and deep acceptance of what is, you know, that's, that's a spiritual, spiritual practice essentially.
So like, they're all effective and, you know, my practical advice for the girls is one wasn't working, just go one of the other three.
Charna Cassell: Yeah, and one of the things that, , listeners who are not watching this on YouTube can't see is what Mark did was there were physical gestures that went with each of those, um, you know, forms of regulation and I think that's a really important thing because it, it helps you embody it and it helps you remember it, right?
And, and so you also
Mark Walsh: can't see Christian's Donald Trump poster.
Christian Branscombe: Never see one of those in my
life. It's a great fire starter. I start every fire with a Trump poster. I mean, it helps. It really does.
Charna Cassell: What's [00:51:00] my farmer resilience while I have this practice? Every night we roast marshmallows over a Donald Trump toaster.
Mark Walsh: New liberals, you're going to be the death of America.
Christian Branscombe: I definitely wouldn't be considered conventional, but I am effective and I believe in what works, you know, so to me, that's reality.
Mark Walsh: Oh, nice to meet you, by the way,
man. Shana, always a pleasure. Yeah, always good.
Charna Cassell: We covered so many beautiful practices very briefly. Is there anything else around, , preventing or identifying, compassion fatigue? Or vicarious trauma that either of you would like to add.
Mark Walsh: I'd say when you don't have a normal empathic human response, it's time to go home or go to your therapist.
Like, I remember I was in Ethiopia and I walked over the body of a child on my way to breakfast and I went and ate breakfast. And then I walked back from breakfast, and I saw the kid, and I was like, oh shit, okay, the kid's not dead, that's good. But the fact that I didn't have a response, [00:52:00] and I was just able to go get my breakfast, that was like, time to go home.
Like,
because I don't want to turn into that guy. Like, when you, when it doesn't hurt, is, is the thing. Yeah, when it becomes nothing, or cynical, or funny, you know. So that's one I'd add
Christian Branscombe: yeah, that's, that's, that's a great example of, Connection, you know, it's trauma because you feel disconnected, you know, it's traumatizing if you feel disconnected, you know, when you feel connected, then you're in a good centered healed space, you know, so that is damaging to you if you feel disconnected.
That's a great example of
that.
Charna Cassell: Exactly this is this is I know one of the questions that we didn't get to it's like, how do you stay grounded and boundaried? in this work? And I mean, maybe we can answer that before we say goodbye.
Christian Branscombe: I know for me, what keeps me grounded is that I'm deeply curious and fascinated and driven by, um, how different and similar everybody's life experiences.
You know, it's like the [00:53:00] all paths leads to Rome type thing, but the journey there is, is truly amazing and seeing the, the varieties of life and the varieties of people's, you know, introspections and just remaining like almost like a child that have to remind myself that I don't know the answers, no matter how much I think I do, the answers are going to be given to me in that moment of exploration.
And when I can embody that, it feels like, uh, you know, a great quest or the, you know, the golden fleece, you know, you're chasing that idea or this new thing, or, you know, you're learning about things versus trying to dictate them. And I think for me, that's my greatest coping skill and all of this, and that helps me stay connected to the people I'm working with and realize that, you know, these things I'm, you know, I.
Get the privilege of being a part of this journey because I'm not going to give up on them. And then on the other side of it, being able to also be a part of their success, you know, so there's a, there's a joy in that.
Charna Cassell: [00:54:00] Thank you.
Mark Walsh: Nice to meet you. Yeah, the types of self care that people don't talk about.
Financial self care. Well, I almost went broke doing the UK project. And that almost put a lot of people out of work in my company. I ended up half a million pounds in debt at one point. Not anymore. Thankfully, we worked it out. But it's, , financial self care. People don't talk about that nearly enough.
And telling people to go fuck themselves, really important life skill. Like, like, like boundaries and being able to firmly enforce them. The third one is just, this sounds so mundane, but it's most of it, is your diary. Like, there's only so many calls to Ukraine I can do a week. Right, there's only so many client calls or groups of prisoners or whatever it is, right?
Like most of my diary is nice stuff I enjoy. It sounds silly, but like you want to show me someone's value, show me their diary and their bank account. I'll tell you their values. And I think it's the same with self care. Well, I'll tell you how good their self care is if you show me their bank account and their diary.
Charna Cassell: [00:55:00] Beautiful. Agreed. And,
and how, how can people find both of you, , if they want to learn more about your work or reach out?
Christian Branscombe: you can, you can find me through, , my name, christianbranscom. com or barebonescoaching. com. You know, so either one of those, you can, you can get ahold of me and I'd love to hear from you.
Mark Walsh: I'm
available through Tinder, Bumble, and Grindr, apparently, which
Christian Branscombe: surprised me.
Mark Walsh: I mean, if you just, if you just put Mark Walsh, your body, but it's the internet, I come back with books and podcasts and websites and all
Charna Cassell: the rest of it. Thank you so much. So good to see both of you and, , I look forward to future conversations.
Thanks for joining us. If you appreciated the episode, please like, rate, and review it, and share it with your friends. And if you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at Laid Open Podcast, which is L A I D P O D C A S T, all one word. [00:56:00] As well as if you go to charnacasselle.
com, you can join my newsletter where you'll get additional information and stay connected around upcoming offerings and courses. You'll also get discount codes and additional resources in my newsletter. And if you go to passionatelife. org, you can get additional information about my private practice.
This has been Laid Open Podcast, and I'm your host, Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Until next time.
