Show Notes
The Codependancy Cure: Unlocking Relationship Freedom with Erika Wright
[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: So, I feel like there's a big treat in store for you, , today's guest, Erica Wright. She is a codependency counselor, and, um,, she leads groups, she works with individuals, and, , my conversation with her was just, , so easy and clean and clear and, , it feels like there's a way my system relaxes knowing that someone is just going to take care of themselves.
[00:00:29] Charna Cassell: And it just, I felt I felt trust for her right away. So I hope that some of that comes across for you and, , you walk away feeling inspired to perhaps work on the dynamics in your relationship and, , clean them up and take more responsibility for yourself, but also like know that there's so much love that's available. Today's guest is Erica Wright. Welcome, Erica.
[00:00:53] Learn how to live embodied If it's about to unwind Uncover new tools and start healing Leave trauma and tension behind Isn't it great laid open Let all your desires come true How can you live laid open Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new.
[00:01:39] Charna Cassell: I'm so glad you're here.
[00:01:40] Erika Wright: I am so happy to be here. The
[00:01:42] Charna Cassell: stars finally aligned.
[00:01:44] Erika Wright: And we're
[00:01:45] Charna Cassell: sitting in the same screen. I feel like we're going to have a Brady Bunch moment. And we're going to. Yeah.
[00:01:51] Erika Wright: I'm very happy to be here with you. It did. There was a lot of moving parts before we got here.
[00:01:56] Erika Wright: So I, i, I'm assuming it's going to be worth it. Worth the wait.
[00:02:00] Charna Cassell: All the buildup. That's right. It's like a first date.
[00:02:04] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:02:05] Charna Cassell: So. I'm excited. Me too. And so you're a codependency coach. Yeah. And so for people that don't know what codependence even means or is.
[00:02:16] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:02:17] Charna Cassell: How would you describe that?
[00:02:18] Erika Wright: Well, I'm a codependency counselor because, uh, the thing I like to be really transparent about.
[00:02:25] Erika Wright: A coach would, you know. perhaps insinuate that I went through some kind of structured training program. And I went through the training program of literally being the world's most codependent person for my entire life. And, , I have a podcast that basically lets you see very intimately like where it started and where it sort of spit me out.
[00:02:47] Erika Wright: So, uh, my definition, my definition of codependency, basically. It is manipulation and control of your own feeling state and manipulation and control of somebody else's feeling state. And I feel like it's just such a ingrained part of being a white person in the United States of America. We don't even know that we're doing it, you know?
[00:03:12] Erika Wright: And then it also is a very defended, non vulnerable way of being in your life and being in relationship. I think there are some behavioral cues that people will be able to identify with a little bit more than those definitions. So people pleasing is a big one. Resentment. Guilt. Betrayal. Martyrdom and suffering.
[00:03:39] Erika Wright: Conditional and transactional love. All of those usually will indicate that there is some codependent patterning going on. And, you know, the way that I like to start is this entire country was co founded on codependency. To make a certain group of people feel very powerful and a certain group of people feel very not powerful, you know and I think it is the You know long term, you know Codependency is the long term result of capitalism patriarchy organized religion colonialism federalism Everything that has been put into place to control people You You know, and ancestrally, we've kind of really taken on a lot and It's, it's a really great time to unpack it, you know, the stars are really aligning for us to be able to, to do that.
[00:04:49] Charna Cassell: Yeah, it's, it's interesting also the timing I know but I was thinking about like when you take on codependency, and you're unpacking it, and you're making different choices in your relationship, what needs to fall away. Right? There's often a lot of fear of loss and here we are, the leaves are falling.
[00:05:06] Charna Cassell: That's right. And, uh, you have to be okay with the possibility of what you might lose.
[00:05:12] Erika Wright: Yes. And, you know, for me, unraveling from codependency was, it felt like I was being deconditioned from a cult. Like, when I started to really see my patterning and see how ingrained it was in my self worth and like, you know, I would only believe, you know, I would be more invested in what my external environment was offering me than what my internal environment was offering me and I think being a, you know, cis, het, white, female, gender assigned at birth is like.
[00:05:50] Erika Wright: It is obvious to me that everything in our culture and society has asked me to ignore myself and invest in what other people think about me and how other people feel about me. You know, so it's like there's a lot of innocence in it too. Everybody comes by it honestly. This is not, you know, people being malicious at all.
[00:06:13] Erika Wright: It's just, it's a lot of unconsciousness. You know, and this month of October that's just ending. Um, it's really important to note, I'm 52 years old, and 50 years ago was when a woman could for the first time get a credit card without the signature of a man,
[00:06:33] Charna Cassell: right? Right.
[00:06:33] Erika Wright: Not be fired legally from a job for being pregnant.
[00:06:39] Erika Wright: This is not that long. Like this is brand new stuff. It's new. Mm-Hmm. , right? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And like, being able to choose without, you know, a lot of. legal oppression, like what relationship you want to be in or not. Like you couldn't just divorce someone or you couldn't choose your partner a hundred years ago, you know, that's like, it's not what was happening.
[00:07:04] Erika Wright: So really being able to, you know, expand into this privilege of liberating yourself from the ways that you participate in your own oppression.
[00:07:18] Charna Cassell: And what I also hear in what you're saying is, one, that discontinuing a pattern and, you know, an ancestral pattern of codependency is also a practice and embodiment because, because you can't You know, if you're, if you're focused all out here on other people's needs, then you're not inside yourself and you're not actually able to feel what feels right, what doesn't feel right.
[00:07:47] Charna Cassell: You're making decisions based on all the things that you listed, right?
[00:07:51] Erika Wright: Yeah. And you know, I think that's something that you have to teach yourself. Or you get to teach yourself, you know, and I have two daughters. I don't think, you know, it's like gender is whatever it is and plays into it however much it is, but it's like it, you know, I, I expect to be unraveling from the conditioning of codependency for the rest of my life.
[00:08:13] Erika Wright: It's like, you know, I've made huge leaps and strides and it's like, it's, it's all, it's just coming in the side doors now, you know, instead of straight on. And it's like the, these covert ways of. you know, really getting drawn into my addiction to comfort, which is ultimately what it is.
[00:08:37] Charna Cassell: That's really well said.
[00:08:40] Charna Cassell: Um, you know, if you think back to this piece of Right. Like how do you, if, if you have an opinion or a need that's not aligned with what's considered appropriate or desirable inside your family or inside your relationship or inside your culture or religion, right. Then, you know, change is all about being able to tolerate and be with discomfort.
[00:09:06] Erika Wright: That's right.
[00:09:06] Charna Cassell: Right. And actually aligning with yourself can be very much about being aligned with discomfort.
[00:09:13] Erika Wright: Yeah, I, I think that we as a nation of people have been groomed to not know how to have our feelings. And to escape them at every turn, I mean it's like, it's set up for that, the quick fix, the instant gratification, you know, you don't feel good, buy something.
[00:09:30] Erika Wright: You don't like that, drink something. You know, and again, it's like I'm not, I don't know, it's like I can shake my fist at whatever systems, and it, that would distract me from just dismantling them inside myself. Right? Yeah. So one of the big, the really big bonuses of unraveling from codependency and getting, you know, basically sober about my discomfort, which means I don't have to do anything about it.
[00:10:00] Erika Wright: I don't have to like it, but I don't have to chase it away. And I don't have to avoid it is like at 52. I think I might actually be skilled enough to metabolize my feelings now, which means like I have them. They're not an emergency. They range anywhere from wicked intense to very subtle to I don't even know if I'm having one.
[00:10:27] Erika Wright: And really building a relationship with myself. of I'm, I'm here for it. I don't need to abandon myself. I don't need anyone else to do anything about me. And it, it feels like a really big deal, you know, is like what to, what to do about me, you know, is like, and if, yeah, which mostly is just being present with myself, you know, and especially in our current.
[00:11:04] Erika Wright: political, uh, dumpster fire. It's just like, there is so much to feel. There's so much to feel. And, you know, the real practice is that discernment between like, you know, being present and being sucked into the You know, horror and being able to feel everything and have some level of elevation and compassion.
[00:11:43] Erika Wright: Right. So it's like a lot of things happening at once. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:49] Charna Cassell: There's, I wanna go back to the very first piece that you were talking about in terms of like what our whole nation was, was, uh, founded on and Yeah. And I can't help but obviously think about power dynamics, right? You're talking about That's right.
[00:12:03] Charna Cassell: And so do you think that. So in a relationship,
[00:12:09] Erika Wright: yeah, so
[00:12:10] Charna Cassell: you're practicing with inside your, your own bubble. And then ideally it's like, it just keeps expanding out, but, but, um, when you're in a relationship where there's power with versus a dynamic of power over, which is a lot of what you're taught, you know, on a systemic level, but also in, in, in like, you know, I grew up in an abusive household.
[00:12:32] Charna Cassell: And so that was, that's what power was. So I, you know, a lot of people, if you grew up with this and, um, Then you get divorced from your own power. 'cause youre That's right. You're like, I don't wanna be this person. I don't wanna have power over. Or sometimes people are like, I do wanna have power over. In order to have power.
[00:12:49] Charna Cassell: I have to, you know? That's right. Have power over you. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit more about that? About like when two, when there's mutual power, what that looks like? Yeah. In a relationship.
[00:13:00] Erika Wright: Yeah. So I would call that interdependency.
[00:13:02] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:13:03] Erika Wright: Okay. Which means like, you know, I am completely energetically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually autonomous, and I am mindful that I have an impact on someone else.
[00:13:20] Charna Cassell: Exactly.
[00:13:21] Erika Wright: Okay. And then I celebrate their emotional, physical, energetic, and, you know, mental autonomy. And I am aware that they have an impact on me, you know, so a lot of it is a practice of discernment also, okay? I spend a lot of time walking around my marriage Going does any of this have anything to do with me?
[00:13:44] Erika Wright: You know and then the really vulnerable practice of telling each other the truth all of the time So not necessarily emptying the contents of your head on another person, but it's like my husband you knows if I want something from him that he's not giving me, it's my job to tell him.
[00:14:04] Erika Wright: Yeah. It's
[00:14:04] Erika Wright: not his job to guess.
[00:14:06] Charna Cassell: Right. He's not, yeah. Not expecting him to be psychic mommy.
[00:14:10] Erika Wright: Yeah, that's right. And if he, same thing, it's like, if he needs something from me, if he wants something from me, it's his job to tell him. To tell me, you know, and then our general practice and this is, I don't know, it might sound a little fucked up to some people, but it's like our general practice is we love each other and we leave each other alone, you know, and There's so much connection in that practice and prior to being with my husband.
[00:14:40] Erika Wright: It's like my practice was If you're in a relationship with me, you're a fucking project. Let's fix this shit I'm gonna tell you all about which was it's a very defended power hungry Position to be in there's no vulnerability and it for the person offering The service, right? So the thing that is a lot more vulnerable is to let my husband, you know, be his own project with himself and Actually take the love that he is offering me and he doesn't need anything from me I don't have to earn it.
[00:15:17] Erika Wright: Yeah, there's a lot of covert Conditional and transactional love. Gotta earn your way in relationships, and relationships are work. And it's just like, what? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's just, you know, that's what's vulnerable, is will some, will someone love me for nothing?
[00:15:35] Charna Cassell: Mm. Yeah. And it's, you know, I think it's what everyone wants.
[00:15:40] Erika Wright: Yes.
[00:15:40] Charna Cassell: And, yeah, it's true. It's so hard for anyone to believe, not anyone, but for, for many people to believe it's possible.
[00:15:47] Erika Wright: I still can't believe it.
[00:15:48] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, there's, there's two things. One, it's what you just described is, um, when I was a teenager, I was on this, this retreat with a school retreat and I was talking to an elder who.
[00:16:04] Charna Cassell: was I was really conflicted about what spirituality was and what it meant because people in my life who identified as spiritual were not acting in alignment. Their actions were congruent and the hypocrisy grossed me out. And, and this, this man said to me, basically what you just said, and it became my kind of guiding force around what, what is, what does spirituality mean, which is I'm allowing my spirit to impact other people and allow theirs to impact me and take And be responsible for that, be accountable for that.
[00:16:34] Charna Cassell: And so for me, it was like, okay, accountability is my love language. And, um, And that, so what you just described really sounds very much like a spiritual practice.
[00:16:44] Erika Wright: Yes, it is. And I
[00:16:45] Charna Cassell: would like to talk about that. And then the other piece is, is, uh, I do this attachment body work with clients and it, it's working like pre verbally from, you know, birth to two years old.
[00:16:57] Charna Cassell: And, so I'm holding them in a particular way. And then also what I'm, what I am intending, what I am doing with my own nervous system and the message that I am. Um, wanting to imprint for them is that there's nothing you need to do for me to love you. You get to exist
[00:17:16] Charna Cassell: and I
[00:17:17] Charna Cassell: just allow love to pour through me and I, you know, hold that and send that to their nervous system.
[00:17:23] Charna Cassell: And it's, There are very few people that don't need that, you know?
[00:17:27] Erika Wright: Yes. Like
[00:17:28] Charna Cassell: that's, I would say that most often that is something that is a message that we need to hear.
[00:17:33] Erika Wright: Yes.
[00:17:33] Charna Cassell: You know?
[00:17:34] Erika Wright: Yes. Absolutely. Well, and you know, and it's a, it's a very, you know, love in its purest form, you know? Yeah. Which. And again, I think everyone has the best of intentions.
[00:17:46] Erika Wright: There's no malice. They're really trying, you know, but it's like, you just gotta try till you get the thing, you know, and, and everyone needs to find their way to it. Yeah. You know, and then like the super ultimate truth and cliché is all the unconditional love you're looking for is yours to give yourself, you know?
[00:18:08] Erika Wright: Mm hmm. It's both. You know, it's like I want it for myself and I want it from other people. Of course. Let's just swing it back to the spiritual aspect is like, that's a job for my creator. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You know, it's like, that's what I reach for when I. You know, when I can't do it, I am reaching for everything that wishes me well that I know nothing about to love me in that way.
[00:18:41] Erika Wright: Yeah. You know, and a lot of You know, it's like the, the, the seed, like the center seed, the foundation of my non codependency practice is seeing every single human being as powerful and capable and connected, as connected to their creator. as they want to be. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , you know? Mm. So it's like, it's a little tricky in codependency, you know, in non codependency to see people as super powerful because then it sort of is like, well, what does that do with victims and perpetrators, you know?
[00:19:21] Erika Wright: Mm-Hmm. I don't know. There's a lot of that in it too. It all depends. I don't know. It's like, I don't really have any absolutes and these are guidelines for people to be able to discern for themselves what feels true, you know?
[00:19:37] Charna Cassell: Well, it's, you know, I'm, there's capable and then there's capacity and capacity can develop over time.
[00:19:48] Charna Cassell: And so like someone may, it's not static. Right? And neither is, neither is power. And so even if someone is, is victimized by somebody, it doesn't diminish their, um, their ability to heal.
[00:20:04] Erika Wright: That's right.
[00:20:05] Charna Cassell: Their essence. They're like, they're, they're, you know, there is, there's a powerful essence that you can expand into.
[00:20:11] Charna Cassell: And, but I think one of the things that, that's really essential here that you mentioned is, is, Interest. Willingness.
[00:20:20] Erika Wright: Yes.
[00:20:21] Charna Cassell: You know, so if there isn't that, then that's, that's where, you know, I, I often talk to people when they're like clients, when they're deciding about a relationship and it's like, here, here are the things that I'm assessing often.
[00:20:33] Charna Cassell: It's like, okay, so where's someone's willingness, interest and capacity to take responsibility for their stuff and work on and their willingness to work on the relationship?
[00:20:44] Erika Wright: Oh yes.
[00:20:45] Charna Cassell: Right? Oh yes. If that's not happening and you're like delusional about someone's capacity or someone's willingness. Yeah, that's right.
[00:20:55] Charna Cassell: You know, then, yeah, you have to, you have to take all those things into consideration.
[00:20:59] Erika Wright: Yeah, well and well said on that because it's like in the past my relationship with codependency has been directly related to my age. relationship with fantasy. It's like just making shit up about people all day long.
[00:21:13] Erika Wright: Oh, here's this guy, you know? Oh yeah, he's so great. All his potential and you know, he's just walking around being an asshole. And it's just like, oh, but that one time he was so great. It's like, I was in a relationship with someone that didn't fucking exist, you know? It's Hollywood, you know, and really the beauty of reality, you know, it's like.
[00:21:39] Erika Wright: It can be so beautiful when you allow it to just like, okay, I think I'm just going to get down with reality right now. And what exactly is this person showing me about their capacity, about their choices, about their ability, right? And it's very sobering.
[00:21:59] Charna Cassell: Well, speaking of sobering, I know you got sober, and that's a big part of your story.
[00:22:05] Charna Cassell: And I think that it's really easy. We have different kinds of drugs, right? That's right. There's drugs and alcohol, but there are other kinds of drugs that, denial, I think, is Oh my God,
[00:22:16] Erika Wright: pick one, foo.
[00:22:16] Charna Cassell: Right. But ways that we distance ourselves from, uh, presence and reality and tell ourselves stories. And I think that, yeah, there's a certain amount you, you related it to.
[00:22:27] Charna Cassell: being in a cult, but like the brainwashing involved in, uh, assuming, um, and making up stories about someone's, you know,
[00:22:40] Erika Wright: potential.
[00:22:41] Erika Wright: I mean, come on. I don't know. I think I went to the movies for the first time when I was five and saw Grease. Oh my God. I mean, this was just like, This was what it was all about, you know, is some mysterious, amazing person will turn into an amazing person and then rescue.
[00:22:58] Erika Wright: I mean, it's just, and it's, and it's okay. It's like, I have, I have a lot of softness and compassion for myself and everybody else around that. And, you know, I, I feel like, you know, this is going to be so crazy whenever this comes out. Okay. It's like, Really and fucking truly, Gil Scott Heron was right. It's like, the revolution will not be televised.
[00:23:21] Erika Wright: It's like, this is the revolutionary shit. When you are on purpose dismantling the systems of oppression that exist inside you. It's just like, That's the beginning. Whatever's gonna happen on the outside, I think, is basically gonna be a reflection of that, of just looking at something and going, you know, I just don't think I believe that that's true anymore, and it doesn't make me feel good, and I might not know what to do, but I'm beginning to believe that that's some bullshit.
[00:23:52] Erika Wright: Mm hmm.
[00:23:53] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Is a
[00:23:54] Erika Wright: really good start.
[00:23:55] Charna Cassell: It, it, when I started doing somatic work in my mid twenties, I remember having that thought of like, this is fucking radical. This is, like, this is a revolution occurring. That's right. Like, when I'm claiming my physical body,
[00:24:12] Charna Cassell: and
[00:24:12] Charna Cassell: I'm actually recognizing that I am powerful versus, uh, A product of all the abuse and trauma and feeling so walking around so terrified and in a freeze and as you Start to thaw that freeze out and and regain a fight
[00:24:28] Erika Wright: That's right.
[00:24:29] Charna Cassell: Right?
[00:24:29] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:24:30] Charna Cassell: It's like, wow, imagine, and fight doesn't always have to be punching someone in the face, right? It doesn't have to be controlling another person, it doesn't have to be cussing someone out. It's like the ability to take a stand for something.
[00:24:41] Erika Wright: That's right.
[00:24:42] Charna Cassell: Then, you know, it's like, imagine if the masses thought out their freeze.
[00:24:46] Charna Cassell: What would happen then? Right.
[00:24:50] Erika Wright: So true. Well, and just, you know, I'm, I also, this has come up recently and I'm glad it has, you know, it's like the glory of people choosing not to have children and being able to do that. Also. Hello, fucking people, like, wow, we're not gonna have generations of people raised by people who didn't want to have generations of people.
[00:25:16] Erika Wright: High five humanity.
[00:25:18] Charna Cassell: It's, I have to say, so there's an article in Rolling Stones about Elon Musk trying to give his sperm away to people and he's trying to, do you know that article? Did you
[00:25:27] Erika Wright: read this? Oh my god. That didn't come across my book. Instagram doom scrolling yet.
[00:25:33] Charna Cassell: Oh, my God. I mean, just that he's trying to, he's, yeah, he's trying to create a little compound of, of, uh, you know, he's, it's like the, the most devastating, significant thing to be happening.
[00:25:45] Charna Cassell: You in, you know, is, is, uh, the reduction in population. I'm like, are you kidding? Are you not paying attention? It's kind of mind boggling.
[00:25:56] Erika Wright: No, sir. No. Keep your sperm to yourself. Oh my God. Please. Oh my God. Send it on a ship up to space with you. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's really, it's, it's really very quite literal.
[00:26:11] Erika Wright: It was perfect. Reality. Yeah. It's like, here is reality folks. Let's get into it. Mm
[00:26:19] Charna Cassell: hmm.
[00:26:19] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:26:20] Charna Cassell: So, um, you have a, a, a really sweet podcast series that, that was so well crafted by Ari Golden, who was also a guest on a previous episode. I love her so much. Beautiful. Media midwife.
[00:26:33] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:26:34] Charna Cassell: And yeah, there's just such a beautiful soundscape and way of unfolding into your story that is, is navigated.
[00:26:41] Charna Cassell: And, , one of the things that resonated the most for me in your story was, , the prioritizing of your best, your, your relationship with your best friend, right? So I've always had really intimate connected. relationships with my best friends. And I think that that's one of the things that it's like, We're so discouraged from prioritizing friends over romantic relationships.
[00:27:06] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:27:06] Charna Cassell: You know, so that's, that's one piece. But also there was a period when, when you got sober and there, and she was still partying and drinking and then the possibility and the fear of losing that connection.
[00:27:21] Erika Wright: That's right.
[00:27:21] Charna Cassell: And you're really vulnerable about, about going through that process and what that could mean to you because that sense of belonging and connection that you felt with her was so healing for you.
[00:27:34] Erika Wright: Yeah. Well, it was the terror, really, that it was conditional, you know? And I think, you know, you know, in my, in my soul, I knew that it wasn't, you know, it's like she and I, it has been confirmed, you know, by astrologers and stuff. This is like, we are soulmates, you know, whatever that means and whatever that is.
[00:27:59] Erika Wright: But, you know, it was, you know, That was the first time in my entire life where I was ever in any kind of partnership. Okay? Sibling, parental, romantic, or otherwise, where I did something that was best for me despite the other person. Like it was a massive pivot. In my life and it and it like I really had to double down on my faith, you know, and for me, you know, this is just it's gonna sound so basic, but it's true.
[00:28:43] Erika Wright: And these have been all of the major pinnacle non codependency moments in my life have felt like this, where it's like, it's me or them. I'm going to completely lose myself. Or I'm going to keep them. Mm hmm. And the good news is it's never turned out that way and that's never been what's happening. But that is how it felt, you know?
[00:29:09] Erika Wright: Mm hmm, mm hmm. And, you know, the, the deep, deep prayer or intention that was at the center of that was like, no, please, both of us. You know, both of us, and in the framework of non codependency, you know, it's like, I did not tell her what I thought she should do. You know, that, that was like, the big guns for me, of just, cause everything that we ever did, it was like, you're doing that, I'm doing that, you're doing that, I'm doing that, and, you know, or I'm doing this and I want you to do it, you know?
[00:29:46] Erika Wright: And that was a really big let go of. I'm going to do this thing and, um, yeah, and you know, I think letting it go and occupying myself that way and not judging her and not, you know, and like still being as present and loving and connected as I could be, it's like it really fortified and shot our relationship on a trajectory of incredible Intimacy and elevation.
[00:30:26] Erika Wright: And, you know, this is going to sound really crazy. She and I have never sat down and talked about it.
[00:30:32] Charna Cassell: Oh, that is interesting. Well, there's
[00:30:33] Erika Wright: nothing to talk about. Like we never sat down and been like, OK, well, let's have the when you got sober and I didn't talk at all. Right. So this is also I just want to say here, like this is also really a big deal for two ladies who never shut the fuck up.
[00:30:51] Erika Wright: You know what I mean? Like she and I have like, you know, Unpacked every second of every and there was just something about this healing and I and I think for me It's like I never felt like we had unfinished business. There was never anything verbally that needed to occur because the visceral healing in the And, you know, the alignment that occurred felt so complete.
[00:31:18] Erika Wright: It's like there wasn't anything to talk about in the day that she was like, that's it, I'm getting sober. I mean, I think I just said, oh, thank God. And that was it.
[00:31:31] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Well, I imagine it was really healing to not have your person. Like you being her person. Yeah. Judge judging.
[00:31:43] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:31:43] Charna Cassell: Like that. She, that you got to be, and, and ultimately, uh, neutrality and lack of judgment is the most heal, pers like healing state you can be in for yourself as well as for other people.
[00:31:56] Erika Wright: That's right. You know? Yeah.
[00:31:58] Charna Cassell: And so I just imagine that that that allowed her like just seeing someone that she loved and was so connected to making a choice and seeing how your life shifted or what may have improved or, you know, what she admired, um, and letting her make that choice herself.
[00:32:15] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:32:16] Erika Wright: Well, and I, I really think like a lot of our relationship has been such an actual real time embodiment of unconditional love. You know, it's like, it really is and has been. And like, you know, the practice of being completely present with one another, but not a meshed and not controlling. Yeah. Yeah. It's just been so.
[00:32:44] Erika Wright: Elevating, you know, and, and really a very good benchmark for what we require from all of our other relationships.
[00:32:58] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:00] Erika Wright: You know,
[00:33:00] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:33:00] Charna Cassell: hmm. Mm hmm. Right. It's, um, there's a level of self responsibility that I need even my clients to take, you know, that I, I, I actually have had a, uh, a long period of not having.
[00:33:19] Charna Cassell: relationship with my father, um, who wasn't in my life, who didn't raise me. But, you know, but there's this period where, and I'm just waiting, I'm waiting for something to shift inside me until I want, I want to, versus I very much felt even as a teenager, like I had to take care of him, even when he wasn't in my life.
[00:33:39] Charna Cassell: Like I, there was a sense of responsibility for him. There, I want to come to this definition, and I may not have written it down exactly as you said it, so please correct me, but, but your definition of intimacy, , I really loved. And so holding the same prayer for exploration of being present. It was something like that.
[00:33:59] Charna Cassell: How would you say it?
[00:33:59] Erika Wright: Did I
[00:33:59] Erika Wright: say that?
[00:34:00] Charna Cassell: You said that! It was, it was in your, it was in the podcast, and I just, I really appreciated that, that the simplicity of that. And do you want me to say it again? You'll be, you'll be like, no, I think I got it. Well, you know,
[00:34:16] Erika Wright: usually, okay. So yes, I think that there is absolutely the being present piece.
[00:34:26] Erika Wright: I also think that true intimacy That we all crave and we all want. I, I believe there is one way only to get it and that is transparency and vulnerability. I don't think it has, you know, it's, it's really available to the depths that we want it to be. And, you know, being completely present with someone.
[00:34:52] Erika Wright: Exactly as they are and letting someone see you and be completely present with you exactly as you are is huge. And in my experience, few things are more vulnerable than that. Yeah. You know, really few things are more vulnerable than that. And intimacy. You know, it's what we're all trying to get and people, you know, I think a lot of us are trying to get it without the vulnerability.
[00:35:27] Erika Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So intimacy, you know, it's, it's the cheap substitute is things like politics and gossip. Right? Where it's like, our thoughts align, we agree on this, now we're in a club, now we make them wrong, we're like this, they're like that, I feel close to you because I belong in your fucking club. Yeah, that's, it's just, it's a cheap substitute for intimacy.
[00:35:52] Charna Cassell: Well, even sex. Yes. You know, I love sex, but honestly, you know, I think that, I think that, that we're hopefully going to evolve. Keep evolving through the, you know, when you talked about drugs, drugs, alcohol, sex is a huge, huge one for people. Um, and, uh, it, it was an interesting many years ago, I was in a somatics training and we were doing some physical practice where we were.
[00:36:22] Charna Cassell: beating this big cushion, you know, the stick, and it was really about like letting aliveness and energy move through your system. It wasn't about expressing anger or particular emotion, but what I saw, I remember this woman who was kind of like tightly bound her hair and her body very tight. And when she stood up and she was standing there and she was like holding this big stick and she looked like, she looked like she had just had the most glorious.
[00:36:47] Charna Cassell: orgasm. And I looked, and I, at the time I worked at Good Vibrations, and so I love that store. Selling sex toys and thinking about sex a lot and, but also healing through my own, you know, sexual trauma. But I looked at her and I was like, oh wow, all of her somatic, her holding, her like habitual tension in her face and body had fallen away.
[00:37:09] Charna Cassell: And I thought to myself, people, I think that people like sex, not just because they're It's physically pleasurable, but it actually allows the softening of how they're physically holding themselves and, and like presenting and performing throughout their days to follow. And it's like one of the few places where people really have permission for like presence messiness.
[00:37:34] Charna Cassell: coming unbound, you know,
[00:37:35] Erika Wright: release.
[00:37:36] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. So I was just like looking, I remember that moment and just being like, like, oh,
[00:37:42] Erika Wright: it's so beautiful.
[00:37:44] Charna Cassell: So this is just to end this, the vulnerability of loot, like letting that amount of energy and power to run through your system, whether it's during sex or being physical or yeah.
[00:37:54] Erika Wright: Yeah. And being really present with that, you know, it's like, I think there's something to be said for like being, you know, in a sexual relationship with someone and being very present with the other person rather than in your own pleasure dome. They're two really different things.
[00:38:14] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:38:16] Charna Cassell: Absolutely. I, I did a, uh, a 10 day Tantra training recently and I pretty much, I mean, I'm in a place where I'm like, I can, As much as I love sex, I would rather not have something that isn't considered sacred sexuality.
[00:38:36] Erika Wright: Yeah. Beautiful.
[00:38:36] Charna Cassell: Which is
[00:38:37] Charna Cassell: basically what you just described, right? That there's a quality of honoring and presence that's, that's mutual.
[00:38:44] Charna Cassell: And if, versus like your body being used for someone to have pleasure or, yeah, or, or prove their worth because they can make you have multiple orgasms, right? That's right. Yeah. It's, it's, it's just like a, Um, there's a lack of performance and a dedication to the other person's spirit, you know.
[00:39:04] Erika Wright: Well said.
[00:39:05] Charna Cassell: You know, so, um, I'd rather spend time in my garden or
[00:39:10] Charna Cassell: going
[00:39:10] Charna Cassell: to
[00:39:12] Charna Cassell: an exercise class, you know.
[00:39:13] Erika Wright: Oh my god, this is the glory of not being 18. Mm hmm. For me, you know, for me it's like, wow, you know, I'm just not trying to run around with my motor all over the place.
[00:39:27] Charna Cassell: Is that what we call it?
[00:39:30] Erika Wright: I guess that's what the kids
[00:39:31] Charna Cassell: are calling it these days.
[00:39:33] Erika Wright: I made that up. Obviously, Gen X doesn't know what she's talking about. My motor,
[00:39:37] Charna Cassell: my motor. Mm hmm. They call it, they call it Fanny Flutters. It's like my, my, my motors revving.
[00:39:47] Erika Wright: Oh my God, I love that.
[00:39:49] Charna Cassell: So there have been a couple moments where you've mentioned, um, creator and we've talked a very little bit about spirituality, but I'm curious about your relationship to spirit, spiritual practice, and how that's played a role in, in this healing process for you.
[00:40:08] Erika Wright: Yeah. Well, it's basically the center of the entire , I spent about 13 years attending a Native American church in Berkeley. Mm hmm. Called Madison Path. It was brilliant. And the, a lot of time, like, learning how to pray, right? And I was raised Catholic, so I just want to say, it was just like, no thanks.
[00:40:36] Erika Wright: No thanks, kneeling. No thanks, God words. No thanks to all of it, you know? And had spent most of my 20s and 30s, like, praying. Trying, you know, it's like I was a witch for a while and then I was, you know, sort of touched into Buddhism and found out that you had to be a vegetarian and you couldn't talk. So I was like, no, I'm not doing that, you know, whatever.
[00:40:56] Erika Wright: So, and, and, you know, I found a way to connect with my creator that It felt like coming home. It was just like, Oh, I get it. And it was with other people doing the same thing, you know, and it's basically the San Pedro medicine that taught me every single thing about love, which ultimately resulted in everything, everything about non codependency and the structure of that ceremony was The teaching of how to be in relationship simultaneously with a power greater than yourself in the midst of other people.
[00:41:48] Erika Wright: And your job is not to do anything about the other people. It's like you are there for yourself. You see that you are connected. To this bigger thing, to this collective, you see that everybody's healing. You see that everybody's having their own experience with their creator. You see that everybody's well.
[00:42:05] Erika Wright: You see that everybody's having all of their feelings in real time. And we're doing this thing together, you know, which is basically the center of every single thing. Yeah. That I teach. It's like the San Pedro medicine, it's all about the love. Non codependency, it's all about the love. Mm hmm. It would be the only point to even begin to consider not doing it, is just, oh, I would like to be more mindful and present with the actual whatever, portal, vibration, channel, whatever you call it, love.
[00:42:46] Erika Wright: That, that lifts people. Everybody knows what it is when you feel it and it doesn't really matter what words you apply to it, you know, of just, but that thing that really makes being alive feel like a great idea, you know? is the love. Mm hmm. And it's everywhere. So that is the center of my entire practice, you know, and it's not, I usually don't come out waving that flag, you know, cause it's like, whatever, people think a whole bunch of shit all the time anyway.
[00:43:24] Erika Wright: And, and, you know, it's like my also, I have a really big prayer and intention to make it applicable to everybody. You know, it's like, it's not about mysticism or. Mm hmm. you know, necessarily spirituality. It's like, I really want to make it available to atheists and people that don't think of anything.
[00:43:45] Erika Wright: It's like, I don't give a shit about any of that. The love is the love is the love, you know, and like really trying to find a way to help people align with that for the one reason is like, they might be a little bit happier when you're a little bit happier. You don't run around and fuck with people, you know, you don't try and get people to be illegal.
[00:44:08] Erika Wright: Yeah. You don't try and tell people what they should do with their bodies or their lives, you know? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You get excited when people want to be together and be married despite what they look like or what their genitals are or not. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You know? But it's the center of everything. It's like all of my work in the world comes from my prayer.
[00:44:32] Charna Cassell: Right. And such the antidote to fear and that's so much of everything you just listed is about fear. Yeah. And when people go into wanting to control and smash down and. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
[00:44:44] Erika Wright: And just like my relationship with my own fear, you know, is like, all of this is wicked scary to me.
[00:44:48] Erika Wright: I'm not like, Oh yeah, I'm on a podcast and I'm so relaxed. It's like, this is terrifying. I feel like I have my underwear off in front of the entire world. And what I lean on and what I rely on is like, I reach for my creator and I'm just like, how's it going? You're doing great. Just keep blabbing about love.
[00:45:07] Erika Wright: Be great.
[00:45:09] Charna Cassell: Well, what's, you know, what's beautiful about that and, and again, like, I appreciate that you want to appeal to all the people, the atheists, whoever, you know, and, and, and in my experience, growing up in a family where there's a lack of continuity and a lack of consistency and so many people experience that in different ways.
[00:45:29] Erika Wright: Yeah.
[00:45:29] Charna Cassell: That, that spirit, like you can call it the God inside you, right? A reflection of that, that there's, that is, there's a continuity and a consistency that can, is you, but it's, you're responsible for bringing yourself to it, right? Yes. And so there's that. It's like, if you show up, it's there, you show up, it's there, you show up, it's there.
[00:45:49] Erika Wright: Right.
[00:45:49] Charna Cassell: And you have no. If you don't bring yourself, then it's not there. And it's a good reflection for, you know, with human relationships. If we don't bring ourselves, it's not going to be there. And we can't and but we think we can blame it on the other person so much more. Right.
[00:46:04] Erika Wright: Yeah. Well, you would do that to skirt any discomfort that you don't want to have.
[00:46:09] Erika Wright: Yeah. You know, it's like life's a lot more comfortable when it's everybody else's fault. Right. So just, yeah, really leaning. You are all your own fault. . It's the good news and the bad news. Mm-Hmm? .
[00:46:23] Charna Cassell: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Well, there's so much more that we could get into, and I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I would love if you had a practice that, that for the people who are thinking about healing their own codependent tendencies, who are recovering, whatever stage that they're at, what's a practice that they can be in?
[00:46:45] Erika Wright: Yeah, it's really simple. So, you know, this is really helpful for me prior to when I began my non codependency journey. It's like, it was really hard for me to stay in myself in the midst of a lot of people. It's like, I, you know, I was an empath and a sensitive person and psychic and I don't know how. And so this is a very real time thing that you can do.
[00:47:09] Erika Wright: You can do this anywhere. Um, and it teaches you energetic, emotional, and mental And physical autonomy, you know, it's just a great way to get centered in yourself when you feel like you're not in your body. Okay? So like, you can do this when you're driving, you can do it at the grocery store, you can do it in a stadium at a concert, you can do it when you're making dinner.
[00:47:34] Erika Wright: And it's a really simple visualization. So the first thing always that you're gonna do is you're gonna breathe, right? And you're going to notice that the body is breathing and there's no wrong way or right way to breathe here. But you're going to notice that the breath is coming in and you're going to notice that the breath is going out.
[00:47:55] Erika Wright: Yeah, and you can notice if the belly goes, you know, if the belly expands on the inhale. And then a really good thing to do is feel yourself supported in either the chair that you're sitting in. You can notice here that gravity is present. You can notice where the bones of your body touch the chair. So you're just basically getting into your body.
[00:48:21] Erika Wright: You're bringing your attention into your physical body. Sometimes it's helpful to put your hands on your body. Also, maybe on the abdomen, just below the belly button. And then go ahead and visualize a ground, like a cord of any color, any texture. And you're going to attach it from your tailbone and you're just going to shoot it down to the center of the earth.
[00:48:47] Erika Wright: Okay. This is a grounding cord. This is your visualization for you to see yourself in your body, feeling your body on the planet. Yeah, this is a really good way to bring your attention into yourself. And then once you have that cord shot to the center of the earth, go ahead and create a big golden globe around you, your energetic body.
[00:49:12] Erika Wright: You know, and you can do this with your eyes open, you can do this with your eyes closed. Okay, now this is your energetic containment. So now you're in your body, you have a cord to the center of the earth, and you're energetically contained, and so for a lot of folks who feel, um, very open and sensitive, what I like to do in this space is I like to let go of any energy that does not belong to me.
[00:49:38] Erika Wright: I like to throw in a little You know, backwards, forward, sideways, and time thing. Yeah, so I can just very gently and easily allow any energy that does not belong to me to make its way down the grounding cord, just like flushing a toilet, you know, and it goes to the center of the earth and that Fire that star in the center of the earth will just go ahead and purify and redistribute that.
[00:50:08] Erika Wright: And that's it. Just how to very simply get centered. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You can do that anytime. Thank you. Yeah. My pleasure.
[00:50:22] Charna Cassell: Yeah. That's, it's, uh, a practice that I do with a lot of clients and it's, it's universal. So whether you're, you're out there listening and you identify as someone who's dealing with codependency or not universally, if you have a physical body, you can do this practice.
[00:50:43] Charna Cassell: The invitation is to come back in, come back home.
[00:50:45] Erika Wright: That's right. Beautiful.
[00:50:47] Charna Cassell: So, how can people find you and what are you, , what are you up to currently? Yeah. If there's any offerings that you have that you'd like to share with us?
[00:50:57] Erika Wright: Yeah, absolutely. You can find me at ErikaWright. org and I have some really great things.
[00:51:05] Erika Wright: One off drop in healing codependency groups where you just come with a bunch of people and you talk about how you're codependent and I tell you to do a bunch of stuff that either you can do or not do and There's one in November and one in December You can follow me on Instagram at ericawrighthcd. I give a lot of free content away there.
[00:51:28] Erika Wright: Uh, You can also ask, you know, have a, ask me a question on there and I'll post it to the world. , I also train people to be codependency counselors. So I have a teacher training that's also on my website and then I will be starting some new six month long healing codependency counseling groups in january and you know, I would highly recommend that for anybody who wants all All of their relationships, including the one to themselves, to change drastically for the better, forever.
[00:52:05] Erika Wright: Mm. Amen. Yeah, and I'm writing a book, but that is going to take however long it takes. Which she
[00:52:12] Charna Cassell: says out the side of her mouth, and it's a massive feat, so congratulations on the undertaking. Thanks,
[00:52:19] Erika Wright: it's really scary and wonderful, and it's almost done.
[00:52:22] Charna Cassell: That is phenomenal. Congratulations. Thanks. I'd love to talk to you more about that.
[00:52:27] Erika Wright: Yeah, we will.
[00:52:28] Charna Cassell: So, all right. Good.
[00:52:30] Erika Wright: Thank you so much.
[00:52:31] Charna Cassell: Anything else? Any, any other parting words before we say goodbye for now?
[00:52:36] Erika Wright: Yeah. I mean, have all your feelings. They will not kill you. They will only help you to be more of yourself, which is exactly what we all need. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Bye.
[00:52:52] Charna Cassell: My online course, Pathways to Peace, Mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living is open for ongoing enrollment. This means you can sign up at any time. It's a self paced course to make it manageable with your schedule.
[00:53:06] Charna Cassell: And as for the coursework, you'll receive four weeks worth of daily videos where I teach you how to understand your nervous system and its reactions. How to think more clearly and gain perspective. How to transform the ways your body communicates through physical sensations. How to identify emotions, where they come from and what they're telling you.
[00:53:25] Charna Cassell: How to discover why you react in ways that produce shame and learn tools to manage these reactions. How to reduce your anxiety and destructive impulses and how to diminish self hatred when you are not your best self. You can also sign up for weekly group coaching calls where you'll have direct contact with me and I'll answer any of your questions.
[00:53:45] Charna Cassell: If you wanna learn more before then and hope you do, you can go to my course page courses dot charna cael, that's C-H-A-R-N-A-C-S-S-E-L l.com for more. Information.
[00:54:00] Charna Cassell: Thank you for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like, rate, review, and share it with your friends. I'd really appreciate it.
[00:54:07] Charna Cassell: And if you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at Laid Open Podcast. That's L A I D O P E N P O D. Okay. Let's start that again. Thanks for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like rate and review it and share it with your friends. If you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and laid open podcast.
[00:54:31] Charna Cassell: Let's try it again. Thanks for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like rate and review it and share it with your friends. If you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at laid open podcast. That's L a I D P. Okay, that's L A I D O P E N P O D C A S T, all one word.
[00:54:58] Charna Cassell: As well as if you go to charnacasselle. com, you can join my newsletter where you can get information about upcoming courses I'll be offering, and I do free giveaways. Plus, you'll get discounts as well as resources that I share at passionatelife. org. You can get more information about my private practice and the kind of work that I do.
[00:55:18] Charna Cassell: This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Okay. Let's, let me just say that last part again. This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together.
[00:55:38] Charna Cassell: Until next time.
