Show Notes
[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Hi, welcome back to Late Open Podcast. I'm your host Charna Cassell and today's guest is Rachel Kaplan. She's somebody I went to grad school with and so I've known her for quite a long time. She's also the host of the Healing Feeling Shit Show podcast as well as the author of Heal Feel and Let That Shit Go.
[00:00:21] Charna Cassell: We're going to have a conversation today about feeling the process of feeling the importance of feeling and all the ways that people who struggle to feel themselves and express themselves and move emotion through their bodies can do that can learn to do that. And she's really funny and sassy.
[00:00:43] Charna Cassell: And I hope you enjoy this episode.
[00:00:46] Charna Cassell: Hi, Rachel. Welcome.
[00:00:48] Learn how to live embodied If it's about to unwind Uncover new tools and start healing Leave trauma and tension behind Isn't it great laid open Let all your desires come true How can you live laid open Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new.
[00:01:35] Charna Cassell: Good to see you.
[00:01:36] Rachel Kaplan: It's so good to see you and be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:40] Charna Cassell: Yeah. So I've already mentioned to our listeners that we went to grad school together. So we have a, a long history and it's really exciting for me to be seeing where you're at and, you know, You know, first with the podcast, but then now with this book and that it's, you've, you've birthed it into the world and, , it's going to be available soon.
[00:02:01] Charna Cassell: When will it actually be in stores for people?
[00:02:04] Rachel Kaplan: , it's purchasable right now, whenever this is, like right today when we're recording and it will be fully launched in the world on October 15th, 2024 in case you're in the future.
[00:02:15] Charna Cassell: Uh huh. Yes.
[00:02:17] Rachel Kaplan: Thanks.
[00:02:17] Charna Cassell: because you're a time machine and you're you've traveled into the
[00:02:20] Rachel Kaplan: we're we're in the past in 2024 Yeah, and just briefly I'll say it's so great to be with you and I feel like we've been first of all I feel like the one class I really remember us Sharing, which was couples therapy that I felt like we were these two very bright lights in the class.
[00:02:38] Rachel Kaplan: And I remember being drawn to you and inspired by you. And I know we have neighboring birthdays and this isn't the first time we've, you know, collaborated. We've talked a lot about podcasts and I know your podcast vision, um, started with book intentions. And so, um, yeah, I'm just honored you're, Having me on your show and that you have such a rich and beautiful show and I'm excited to talk to you I really respect you I also had you on my podcast on a team of people and I spent a lot of time just saying how much I wished You were my therapist and you remember I did and I meant it I sent you clients.
[00:03:16] Rachel Kaplan: I think you're, you know, I'm very picky about therapists. I think there's a lot of bad therapy and I think you are a very good therapist.
[00:03:24] Charna Cassell: Well, thank you. I really, I appreciate that. , I was already recommending your book to a client the other day. You know, I, we have, I have a range of clients. , some are big feelers and others who can't feel and I feel like this book is useful for, for everybody.
[00:03:40] Charna Cassell: It's a pretty universal book. So yeah. Wow.
[00:03:45] Rachel Kaplan: Thank you.
[00:03:45] Charna Cassell: Uh huh. So what's the feeling movement about?
[00:03:51] Rachel Kaplan: I love that. Way to start there. , it has this dual meaning. And on one hand, if you don't know already, the metaphor I like to teach people about their feelings and how to work with their feelings is poop. , I call my modality or my method, emotional potty training.
[00:04:07] Rachel Kaplan: So on one hand, the movement is a bowel movement, but in a much deeper, more meaningful way, the movement is this revolution of people. relearning how to feel and reclaiming the full access to our emotional, deeply sensing, feeling, emoting humanity. And that, you know, as a culture, you know, in our little mini cultures, our family cultures, we've all been even by the best intentioned caregivers kind of shifted out or conditioned out of our emotions, our full expression of emotions, and certainly our Um, current time, very busy, very, , economic culture is trying to monetize our desire to avoid our pain, and gives us infinite options and distractions as alternatives to just feeling our pain and our emotions.
[00:04:58] Rachel Kaplan: And so I'm saying, no guys, that actually brings more pain. Let's all learn to feel, , really skillfully so we can just be who we are. And it feels revolutionary to me.
[00:05:09] Charna Cassell: Yeah when I started doing somatic therapy and learning about embodiment, I was like, this is radical. This is like a form of activism to like actually be embodied and be able to feel yourself after being so dissociated.
[00:05:23] Charna Cassell: So I hear you saying a very similar thing. Right. So let's, let's get radical together.
[00:05:28] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:05:31] Charna Cassell: So what, what do you see is at stake if people don't feel their feelings? Um, Yeah. And then how does that impact all aspects of their life?
[00:05:39] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. Well, I, I feel like listeners might just tune in to, you know, think about when you've tried to avoid yourself.
[00:05:45] Rachel Kaplan: I mean, basically, even though there is like a deadening of feeling or a numbing of feeling, so by the time you've been avoiding your feelings for a certain amount of decades, there is some part of it that will operate on autopilot. So it's not like every moment you're choosing necessarily to abandon your body.
[00:06:03] Rachel Kaplan: But at the most basic level, there's not a home that we get to live in if we don't wanna feel anything. We have to figure out a way to not be in our, in our nervous systems, in our bodies. And there are, you know, myriad of options for that. Like substances. I, I like to call our, our alternatives to feeling our drugs of choice.
[00:06:25] Rachel Kaplan: Mm-Hmm. or our drug of choice. Most people have a few, so it could be anything from intense busyness. , addiction to entertainment, whether it's Netflix or the news, , it certainly could be substances, drinking, smoking, ketamine ing all the time, you know, , even, you know, you could be, for some of your people, maybe like medicine ceremonies.
[00:06:46] Rachel Kaplan: Maybe you're addicted to the intensity of a medicine ceremony or, or just trying to get somewhere. , even being a really good mom or a really successful mom. person could all be used as an alternative to feeling our insecurity or our terror of our mortality or our terror of our, you know, whether or not we're lovable, , feeling our, our, you know, our grief, our heartbreak.
[00:07:13] Rachel Kaplan: What I find is at stake is that all of those methods. are destructive. You know, it costs you your physical health. It costs you your relational health. It's hard to have a healthy relationship and be empathic toward a partner if you're not willing to feel your pain. , it's hard to make time for a partner or your kids if you need to stay ramped up at level 10 in order to avoid your pain.
[00:07:36] Rachel Kaplan: So there's no way and there's no, it just, it just doesn't work. I think we all know if you're listening to this and you've tried it, you probably know. That it didn't work that long. It's like, you know, I joke and I reveal in the book my drug of choice is clothing It's like once you have the new sparkly perfect new piece.
[00:07:55] Rachel Kaplan: It's not like you're going back to that piece It's like you always need to feed the beast to keep those surface level distractions active and and still what it leads to is this deep down, you know, pretty Suspicious feeling of like, you know imposter. I'm not enough if someone gets close to me. They're going to uncover this So even if you have the steady drip of your favorite alternative to your human emotional experience You'll be living in fear that That you're full of it and you are and it's not a problem like you don't have to feel bad about it you know, you got there honestly, but The way to not be full of it is to learn how to let it and that being your pain and all that Backlog of unprocessed stuff kind of slowly one one feeling at a time Clear your system and be be felt and allowed and therefore moved
[00:08:49] Charna Cassell: You know, what's interesting about that, we both share a love of clothing.
[00:08:53] Charna Cassell: I'm in my closet right now and I'm going to just tilt you towards my Yeah. I remember being a teenager and I, you know, I had PTSD even as a teenager. And I, my drugs of choice were art, making art. , You know, music, and, and, and clothing, like reading books and, and going to vintage clothing stores.
[00:09:19] Charna Cassell: And I can track the same feeling of like, um, uh, kind of like sinking in and there's a level of like hyper focus but kind of fuzzing out and like a, a, like a, what I imagine for somebody else is like taking a drug. But just like this feeling in my body that. only years later reading a really good book and when I was from an embodied place, could I go, Oh my God, that's what I used to feel, right?
[00:09:49] Charna Cassell: That was the, that was the escape that it offered. It was just a moment. Exactly. And I think what's, what's important here is like, there can be levels because you might be someone who feels things very intensely. You may not even realize That you're dissociating, but that you're getting some relief. Like it's taking a little bit off the top.
[00:10:08] Charna Cassell: It's softening things because your system is in so much panic all the time. And then while on the other side, there are people who are just so numb, right? You know, they can't feel themselves when their hand or somebody else's hand is on their body.
[00:10:24] Rachel Kaplan: Right? Well, your, your drugs of choice. I mean, I liked hearing how you experienced it.
[00:10:29] Rachel Kaplan: And those are actually, I think, fairly. Helpful, you know, music and making art. I'm like way to go. I mean, I feel like the thing I'm addicted to that's the healthiest is exercise You know, and I think I'm grateful for that one, but it makes sense that that you while you were fuzzing out or getting relief and also checking out, you know, that those were also probably ways that you were really nourishing yourself.
[00:10:56] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. And those are actually ways I suggest as far as increasing your bandwidth for feeling, you know, so good job.
[00:11:03] Charna Cassell: Well, there, there's some, and there's some others that are important, right. And I've done studies around, , what helps people avoid depression. PTSD over time. There's certain kinds of resources and you mention a bunch in terms of increasing bandwidth.
[00:11:16] Charna Cassell: Do you want to say the rest of those?
[00:11:18] Rachel Kaplan: yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think the biggest one, , or some of the biggest ones aren't nature, like feeling connected to something bigger than you. And, , you know, nature was something that was, I have a mentor who was instrumental, , in my healing and the biggest influence on my understanding.
[00:11:34] Rachel Kaplan: He prefers to be anonymous. He lived, he's not a therapist. He was like a mud hat. Earth person, um, who was initiated into an Apache lineage, but he's very private and he doesn't believe in the internet. And I'm like, I'm one of them. So anyway, he really helped me. Um, and this was in the last, like. You know, I stopped working with him about eight years ago, but for four or five years He really helped me reclaim my connection to the earth and from his perspective our disconnection To the earth is so much a part of our illness But so it might sound like a weird kind of okay You want me to go on a hike and it's deeper than that?
[00:12:11] Rachel Kaplan: It's like and it doesn't have to be far off and huge and it doesn't have to be the most fantastic place in nature you can find but it's What is it like to feel like you belong and so much of though it's invisible in our lives in a way with You know grocery stores and uber eats and you know door dash we don't realize how much we're totally dependent on the animals and the plants and Trees that have been turned into our homes and shelter So there is a way that I think our our divorce Ness from our source in that way is part of what keeps us ill and so if there's a tree near your house or or if you are growing herbs even on your windowsill or if there's moving water just something you can create a relationship to By visiting again and again and that just to feel like you're in connection to the natural world We have to slow down.
[00:13:05] Rachel Kaplan: So that's a huge one and it wasn't an obvious one for me I think as urban people it can it can feel overwhelming and kind of You Like woo woo to try to be like, oh, earth is going to help me with my feelings or my trauma. But yes , and then a few others is just And this kind of depends a lot of when when charn is referencing my use of the word bandwidth , I like to think about you know If you if you hadn't pooped for 30 years, you have a pretty big log in there, right?
[00:13:31] Rachel Kaplan: And you're gonna need laxatives. You're gonna need patience. , My favorite metaphor is to say that you know, you know If you, for, if you went to the airport and you forgot to download a movie onto your device, uh, you want one on your iPad, let's say, no matter how long you spend at the airport, you could have eight hours and you still probably wouldn't get that movie onto your device.
[00:13:50] Rachel Kaplan: And the reason is that, for example, Free airport Wi Fi is really weak signal. And so when you have something big and you need to move it through, it needs a strong signal. And so, you know, as a therapist, I feel like I am a Wi Fi hotspot. I'm sure you are too, where we're amplifying people's bandwidth so that they can create a connection strong enough to the parts of them that are in pain in order to allow these big.
[00:14:17] Rachel Kaplan: You know, untouched, scary feelings to come through. And so what you want to look for is these are all, how can you amplify your bandwidth? So music that has the tone of the emotion that you're trying to connect to, whether it's angry or sad or just weird and frenetic, could help. If you cannot be a perfectionist and you want to make art, whether writing or visual art that can help I think anyone who's going to try to make it look perfect or be in judgment of what you're seeing that will shut it down.
[00:14:45] Rachel Kaplan: , I think one thing that might be useful for listeners is to look at what are the most common ways we try to amplify our bandwidth and it's usually through humans. People have a hard experience, they pick up the phone, they call a friend, and they vent. Or you don't, you can't cry about something until someone you love is listening.
[00:15:01] Rachel Kaplan: And that's really beautiful. My first editor made the joke that all of my suggestions make it sound like I hate friendship. And it's partially because my mentor, the deepest influence, was someone who is So much about this sovereign capacity to, um, to be able to do it for yourself, but meaning like to not over lean on someone because the equivalent, if we're going to say that feeling our feelings is a little like pooping our poop, it's like, do you want to have to Do you have to invite someone you love into the bathroom every time you need to have your feelings?
[00:15:32] Rachel Kaplan: Or do you want to save that for the special occasions when you have a really hard feeling and you're mostly going to try to at least know that you can use these tools whether it's your local tree or your sad playlist or getting in a bathtub and being swaddled by the water. These are all ways that you can kind of amplify your sense of connection and containment and bandwidth and try to allow yourself to just feel as much pain as you're in.
[00:15:57] Charna Cassell: Right. Well, the funny thing about, you know, we don't want as, as therapists, you don't want people to only be able to connect to themselves when they, you know, with, yeah, exactly when they're in session, you, you want to give people tools, ideally, as much as we love them to move along little doggie, you know, um, So that there's co regulation and self regulation, and there's, and regulation doesn't just mean calm down, don't feel, it means be regulated enough to be with your feelings.
[00:16:29] Charna Cassell: Exactly. And know that you're not going to die, or someone else isn't going to die. You know.
[00:16:33] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah, absolutely. And that we can co regulate with things other than other people. And your therapist is probably the most healthy person to co regulate or learn about co regulation with. , but yeah, , we can get input from things beyond humans.
[00:16:48] Rachel Kaplan: I think that's true. I mean, yeah. Do you?
[00:16:51] Charna Cassell: Oh, oh, totally. I mean, I also had a teacher who is, uh, from West Africa. And so, you know, one of the practices that I find very useful that he taught me was in, is having a reciprocal relationship with everything around you. It could be, it could be a lamppost, but, um.
[00:17:10] Charna Cassell: you know, trees. I, I remember even sitting in a sauna and having a conversation with the, with the water that was, you know, that was misting on me. And it's like, what do you, what do you have for me? What do you need from me? And being in that conversation, um, I was in my garden right before coming in here and picking Armenian cucumbers and tomatoes.
[00:17:29] Charna Cassell: And, you know, I think the thing that That even a garden has to offer you as a reminder of cycles of life, like, you know, like things die things like being able to be with the disappointment of like, Oh, what did I do? Did I underfertilize? Did I hang something that needs to crawl and be crowded over? Uh, you know, an archway?
[00:17:51] Charna Cassell: Like what? How can I relate to this being differently and know that each of these things need something different? And then that gives you permission to realize, wow, maybe I had in my family and my family didn't have the capacity to give that to me. But like, how do I give that to me and have it be okay that I need something different?
[00:18:09] Charna Cassell: So I think there's
[00:18:10] Charna Cassell: so
[00:18:11] Charna Cassell: much that you can learn through nature. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:17] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. Um, my mentor would talk about, you know, that you don't see Animals feeling bad for themselves, you know, or just like dwelling in some of their negative states it's like or if you think about people talk a lot about completing the You know the stress cycle of an animal running from a predator.
[00:18:33] Rachel Kaplan: It's like once it's safe. Maybe it shakes it off right and Moves along, right? And so, yeah, there is a lot that we can learn and it can feel sometimes, I think, , out of our reach, you know, for people who are in cities and, and don't have that organic, natural connection. And, you know, I think for me, I, I learned to build it and it took a long time to feel like I belong to the earth.
[00:18:57] Rachel Kaplan: And I think it's a huge part of my wellness. And so, you know, it's never too late to start to be like, well, what does that mean for me? You know, and what does, how can I feel more supported and held?
[00:19:08] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Well, and so there's, you know, you're referring to something that it's like the biggest entity, you know, there's the cosmos, there's the earth, there's, there's the, and you get closer in and then you, you look at, okay, so what about me?
[00:19:21] Charna Cassell: There's so many disowned as, you know, you talk about in your book, disowned parts, like parts that we make wrong or bad inside of ourselves. And so, You know, the, the process of, of befriending and reparenting is one of the things you talk about. Do you want to get into that some?
[00:19:38] Rachel Kaplan: Sure. Yeah. So, you know, what I call this work is emotional potty training and it really is this two prong focus or two wing focus, two phase focus.
[00:19:48] Rachel Kaplan: And you know, this work of what we'll talk about. Parts work. It's, you know, I didn't start it. Neither did IFS by the way. Um,, it's very old. I mean, you see it in some of the most original forms of, of, of therapy and, you know, in spiritual, , you know, archetypes and mythology. , I really deeply immersed myself in parts work via gestalt therapy, which was my initial foundational training.
[00:20:11] Rachel Kaplan: But the first wing of this approach is really about reintegrating these parts of us because If you try, if you're like, all right, I heard this episode, I've heard Charna, now I hear Rachel, okay, I'm gonna have my feelings. I'm gonna try this out. If you don't have a connection, or if the parts of you that are in the most pain are locked up, and I'll talk about how I perceive that happening, you won't have access to the pain that needs to move.
[00:20:38] Rachel Kaplan: Right? And so before we can really, I mean, which doesn't mean you don't have any pain, but it's like, you know, like what, what this book is really about is teaching people, how do you heal the deepest wounds inside the parts that I've really, the parts that are wondering, do they deserve love? Do they belong?
[00:20:55] Rachel Kaplan: Are they okay? And for most of us, you know, like, because that's what I'd love to see is people to, you know, the subtitle is, you know, lasting self love and emotional resilience. And the emotional resilience is like, you know how to feel all your feelings. You've become integrated enough and skillful enough that you can handle your life.
[00:21:13] Rachel Kaplan: And any hard feeling that's going to come and surprise it, even once you're at that place, you're going to have hard feelings. I'm going to, you're going to, you know, just like, we're going to keep pooping until we die, you know? , but you know, the self love part, lasting self love is really about, about this integration process.
[00:21:30] Rachel Kaplan: So, , to understand it, it goes back to something I'm sure you've heard about on this show, which, you know, is the, , industry word for it is like attachment, um, uh, it's funny, my brain is a little bit taxed after this, this day I've had, but, , yeah, the importance of our core attachment. So when we come into this world as tiny little infants, , we're incredibly sensitive.
[00:21:54] Rachel Kaplan: We don't have the capacity to think, we don't have, , you know, the capacity to speak. We're like little nervous systems. And we're little animals who are wired to know from a biological survival based level that if we don't stay close to our caregivers, we will die. And it's true. Like, you know, you needed food and water and shelter, , and protection.
[00:22:16] Rachel Kaplan: And you won't have that if you don't have some basic level of parenting. And of course, it goes way deeper as far as that. the child's needs for attunement and care. Because we know we need this more than anything else, we're essentially wired before we can even think or before we understand what's happening to, , relate to our caregivers and our parents in ways that are comfortable for them, that keeps them close.
[00:22:40] Rachel Kaplan: So if you notice that your mom glasses over every time you , cry, If once you grow a little bit, you, you start getting conditioning, like don't talk like that or why are you so loud or, you know, sit still or I'll give you something to cry about. These are all, you know, painful ways that you're being shaped and you are invested and motivated to not express the aspects of yourself and qualities of yourself that would make your parents be harsh, move away, not love you.
[00:23:11] Rachel Kaplan: And it feels like life or death. Like you said, now my favorite thing, I don't remember exactly when I learned it, but I do think this seed was planted in grad school. But to me, this, you know, one simple choice point of being little explains why everyone's walking around feeling like they're the problem.
[00:23:28] Rachel Kaplan: And it is this. So when that's happening, when you're, whether by the most well intended benevolent parent or by a more, you know, abusive, neglectful parent, when, when you're being caused harm in your early life. You essentially have two ways to understand it and let's remember we don't really have sophisticated systems of understanding, right?
[00:23:49] Rachel Kaplan: But we can basically be like me Good and innocent. I'm helpless. This isn't my fault. I'm a little cute little baby And these people who I depend on for my survival are causing me harm. That's one Like reality of child could sit with and everyone just take a breath and imagine that being totally dependent and Recognizing you're innocent in an unsafe world Right?
[00:24:15] Rachel Kaplan: That's like heavy. It's scary. The other option is you could be like, I must be bad. And maybe if I do better, if I'm less emotional, if I clean up my room, if I walk and talk the way my father wants me to, then I'll get the love and I'll be okay. And in that option, we have this sense of agency and control.
[00:24:36] Rachel Kaplan: And even as children, I think that is, , A safer alternative and so for everyone walking around wondering why do I feel when I'm so successful? I've got this sparkly thriving life on the outside Everyone in my life thinks i'm crushing it or killing it or i'm so great And yet i'm walking around feeling like all of that is a cover up and deep down i'm not good enough Or if people knew me they'd know that i'm too much or not enough whatever version whatever form flavor you put on it based on your conditioning, it's incredibly normal.
[00:25:07] Rachel Kaplan: It's like that, you know, that's how it happened. And as far as looking at, you know, well, what happened after that, for all of us, we generally wanted to push away that experience. And so I use the metaphor of self love. saying you walked it down and locked it into an emotional basement closet, but you're now operating, you know, and by the time, just so you know, by the time you get to middle school and high school, you're getting all these other forms of conditioning.
[00:25:32] Rachel Kaplan: And of course today and today's children, they're dealing with social media, media, right? There's like endless conditioning that we get of what makes us good or likable or attractive versus bad, unacceptable. And so. By the time you're listening to a podcast like Charna's or you're picking up a book like mine, you know, not only did these parents or caregivers and all of these like early childhood conditions impact you and condition you out of being yourself, but you have been locking your parts up in the basement closet, trying to not express those, being afraid that they'll show up probably for decades.
[00:26:08] Rachel Kaplan: And I think that's an important thing so that we get that we have the power actually. And that as we start this reintegration process. And invite these parts back out that we need to move really gently and with a lot of intention because we, most of us have lost their trust. It's like we've been telling ourselves, no, don't show that aspect to a potential partner, you know, they'll leave you or don't act like that at work.
[00:26:34] Rachel Kaplan: They won't trust you. And so, you know, as we start to. do the reintegration work, and I talk a lot about this in my book, like what does that look like? You know, it starts with kind of, it's one of the very few places in my work I suggest to think. So it's like, starts with like, reflecting like, what did you feel made you unlovable?
[00:26:53] Rachel Kaplan: What was your perception of, like, what was, you know, the scapegoated parts or what you had to hide? Just so you know who you're looking for, right? You don't want to have too, , fancy of an idea about it. It's much better to kind of be curious and see what's in there, but it is useful to know, okay, it's my, it's my emotionality, or maybe it was my sensuality.
[00:27:11] Rachel Kaplan: Like, for me, that was a huge thing. Like, I, figured out a way to self soothe while I was in a crib still. I basically figured out how to, I called it tickling myself. And it was my favorite thing to do. And by the time I was seven, I was horrifically ashamed and didn't want anyone to mention my childhood, which is funny because I was clearly still a child, but like my super ego came online and I was like, Oh God, I've been tickling myself.
[00:27:36] Rachel Kaplan: And if you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about self pleasuring. And, um, , the profound shame I had about that was like, overwhelming, you know? And So to bring these parts back into your experience where you have a chance to feel whole, feel like yourself, not feel like you're hiding something, it's really a relationship building process.
[00:27:58] Rachel Kaplan: And one thing to know is that like most of us don't hide our strengths. You know, we're not hiding our academic prowess and our athletic ability. We're hiding the things that were teased or that were, , outliers. We're hiding the parts of us that made us feel like weirdos, right? And so what happens when you build a life without those parts is it's not usually very suited for who you actually are.
[00:28:20] Rachel Kaplan: Whether it's like, you know, You know, moving at too fast a speed or surrounded by people who aren't really your people. And so the, the beautiful news as you start to get to know these parts and welcome them and allow them to come out and start to check in on how do they actually feel about your life and your friends and your pace, you know, you start to actually become much more.
[00:28:42] Rachel Kaplan: Sensitive and embodied and capable, like you said about the garden of knowing what you actually need and starting to create a life that actually works for you and your unique, quirky, awesome, weird self.
[00:28:57] Charna Cassell: One of the things that I would add to that is, I think that for a lot of people who have complex PTSD, Things that are not weird that are absolutely normal, like wanting to be cared for, having support, or having even just permission to be able to feel your feelings if you grew up with a narcissistic parent, those are the things that you feel shame about.
[00:29:23] Charna Cassell: Right, like just the desire or need for, for, for to be held can be a massive conflict internally and to the point where you don't even feel that desire, like it's, you're so divorced from it. You don't even recognize it. I mean, there are certain things that it took me so long to make contact with because I'd become so self reliant or just like, It was like feeling lonely.
[00:29:49] Charna Cassell: I don't get that. Yeah, right. Neglect is very useful during COVID times, right? So like you just, you know, you're able to spend endless time by yourself. And then the other thing is in terms of disowned parts, what I see a lot with my clients and with myself, as you said, like we're, we're ever evolving beings and no matter how good you are at feeling yourself, like I get migraines, right?
[00:30:13] Charna Cassell: I just had a five day, five day migraine. That is a dis the worrier. Like that's one of my parts, my worrier. If she, if I don't have time to turn towards a certain part of myself, , and cry, you better believe that a migraine, so, which we call somatization, like it'll get physicalized in my body. And so a lot of people are dealing with physical pain and it's basically saying, Hey, turn your attention towards me.
[00:30:40] Charna Cassell: I need you to be present with me. Right. Yeah.
[00:30:44] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because our emotions are so physical. Like, they're gonna, they're gonna find some pathway, , whether or not we allow them. I'm so sorry you had a five day migraine and what a powerful, like, little, , I don't know, bouncer you have there, you know, like, or like, you know, that's, you can't mess around, I guess, I would imagine that would keep you wanting to cry a little bit here and there.
[00:31:09] Charna Cassell: Well, yeah, right, off gassing, well, I mean, but here's the thing, is that if we keep our, and this is, goes back to what you were saying, like, you, if you keep yourself too busy, if you don't have what you call, and I'd like to get more into this, but like, emotional release dates with yourself. If you don't have some way of staying connected, whether it is that you're seeing a therapist, whether it is that you watch sad movies or see your friends or, you know, like do yoga where you get to be still and internal.
[00:31:39] Charna Cassell: , and even when you do do that, like I exercise every day, but there are times when, , You get literally ahead of yourself and, and don't feel right. And so, , not everybody somatizes and backlogs. That's my brilliant yet at times, obviously frustrating body. And that's how it communicates with me. Spirit communicates through pain often for me.
[00:32:02] Charna Cassell: is
[00:32:02] Rachel Kaplan: High stakes. It's high stakes. You, you know,
[00:32:05] Charna Cassell: right. You have to stay honest with yourself. You know, that's what it does is like, you just can't get. Like, some people just can't get too far away from themselves. , but your book is useful in that, you know, um, like I was even, I even had a migraine while I was reading your book and like I sat with, there's a chapter on shame.
[00:32:24] Charna Cassell: And sitting with that and just breathing into, I, I often will have a conversation with whatever part of my body is hurting, you know, I go into that part and I, and I wait for, it's like going to the center of the pain, but also like asking like what it's needing from me. Right. So I think it's, it's really useful as you're reading this book, like you might feel the emotions.
[00:32:48] Charna Cassell: As they're being described. And then it's an opportunity to go into that and to have one of those part states with yourself.
[00:32:55] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. Right. And I keep trying at the end of every chapter to be like, don't keep reading, go try it. But you know, people are going to do what they're going to do.
[00:33:03] Charna Cassell: Um, Yeah. Well, so you said you wanted to talk about that part, right?
[00:33:08] Charna Cassell: Well, the, the difference between, um, proactive and reactive,
[00:33:16] Rachel Kaplan: um,
[00:33:16] Charna Cassell: emotional release work I think is useful.
[00:33:19] Rachel Kaplan: Okay. Well, so, you know, now we're moving to the other wing of emotional potty training or the other, uh, you know, phase, uh, my, my upcoming TEDx talk, he's like, I don't want to talk about it with wings.
[00:33:30] Rachel Kaplan: Let's talk phases. I'm like, okay, there are wings in the book. But the reason I like the metaphor of wings is that a bird can only fly if it has two healthy wings. And so you really. Both of these parts like, you know having your feelings all the time without access to your authentic parts that are in pain It's only going to do you so much good and having those parts on pain that are in pain back on line But not being willing to feel their pain or shutting down their pain is re traumatizing for them You know, and there are so many and I hope I did it justice in the book So many subtle ways that we do talk ourselves out of our pain, you know with the best of intentions And i'm trying to really help people with that learn how to not do that.
[00:34:07] Rachel Kaplan: But moving to the second wing is really about how do you feel the feelings so that you can release the pain that you're holding. And before I get into the difference between those two types of, , emotional feeling or feeling work, I'll just say that. There's two levels this, , you know, emotional potty trained state works at.
[00:34:26] Rachel Kaplan: One is that, , you know, we, we uncover the core wounds that are in our emotional basement closet. And in a different way to say it is, if you felt like you were unlovable throughout your life, if you experienced a lot of trauma and you feel unsettled, safe as a baseline. Your resting state is lack of safety, or you're just constantly enraged, right?
[00:34:47] Rachel Kaplan: Or hating life. It's like we get into these extreme negative states and for a lot of us, that is our baseline. Meaning, if you're not distracting yourself, if nothing big and sparkly and exciting is happening, that's how you feel deep inside. And so part of this work is, About going in, reclaiming these parts and letting them, helping them release their pain, you know, and move from a really negative state to a more neutral state.
[00:35:15] Rachel Kaplan: So that one emotional release at a time, you're getting lighter and getting a little more toward, you know, an emotional neutral. And it's not an emotional high. There's a whole chapter on this. I don't know if you read that, but yeah, a lot of us, what we're doing is we're in such a deep emotional negative that we're just pendulum swinging to the highs, which of course is.
[00:35:33] Rachel Kaplan: you know, detrimental and those are unstable and cause problems too, and then we just swing back to the lows. So this is much more about like these very, , pretty delightful states of like contentment, safety, worth that might not be so flashy, but they're very stable. They're very comfortable and they're very ideal for building a life on them.
[00:35:53] Rachel Kaplan: And that's like the deep, slow, core wound healing that happens through processing your feelings. And I'll describe what kind of feeling work leads to that. But the other side of becoming an emotionally potty trained grown up, which you'll do You know while you're doing that deep healing work But also after kind of like the goal of this is not to make everyone obsessed with their emotional pain all the time Like you'll hopefully get to a place where you're you feel Fairly content with what you've integrated and you might not be as focused as creating, these proactive, healing sessions, which i'm about to describe but you will have the skills to know that when life You Or your day gets hard, let's say you have a fight with your partner or your boss or something happens, you know how to responsibly, appropriately move the feeling.
[00:36:39] Rachel Kaplan: And so this skill, we'll start there, is called Reactive Emotion. Emotional release, and what it means is that something happened to you, so you allowing the feeling is a reactive process, and this is much easier for most people. That's actually how a lot of people know their feelings is something, they get kind of like kicked in the gut, or kicked in the face, and they feel, you know, or someone dumps them and they feel, or something acute happens and they feel, and you know, it's, it's useful, right?
[00:37:08] Rachel Kaplan: There's a range of how appropriately people feel like some people once they're having their feelings They're going to spew it all over others are going to you know, create destruction or harm around them or to themselves so the reason why it's actually a form of emotional release work is Learning how to do it in a way where it's safe for you.
[00:37:27] Rachel Kaplan: It's safe for people around you Learning techniques that will support you doing it , depending on how much time you have like if you have to cry at your office building you're gonna You might need a different strategy You might need to go into a bathroom and be know how to like cry or shake if you're really scared about you know Giving a presentation you might need to know how to quickly transform your state or release some energy that's happening in your body or maybe take a walk around the block, right?
[00:37:54] Rachel Kaplan: So these are all ways that you're learning how to respond to yourself while you're already activated and how to do it in a way that helps you recover. And, and there's, there's a whole bunch of tools and, and skills and directives I give around how do you just actually bring your awareness into the pain?
[00:38:11] Rachel Kaplan: What are the steps of working with any feeling? And then of course, depending on what the feeling is, you get a lot more help and very specific techniques for, you know, because working with anger is, Completely opposite from working with sadness, right? You're going to need a different setup. Some of the premise is the same You're giving permission.
[00:38:28] Rachel Kaplan: You're turning towards yourself You're you know feeling your body But the energetics of actually releasing it or moving it are going to be different And so you're going to get instruction on all parts of that through the book , so the deeper work that's required to actually heal the core wounds is something called proactive emotional release work and that's when and you referenced it about creating a feeling date That's when you know, it's really useful to carve out a few times I'd say two to three times at least if you're really gonna go for this A week where you're gonna try to build up, you know anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour i'd say You know, and it doesn't mean you're going to be trying to emote or squeeze out feelings.
[00:39:09] Rachel Kaplan: And by the way, we're never trying to exploit the feelings or force them, right? That would hurt as much as forcing a poop out, and we'll shut you down actually., but, you know, you're not necessarily inactive feeling that whole time, but you're in that process of slowing down and going in and giving permission.
[00:39:25] Rachel Kaplan: And this is where you have the chance to really track, like, You know, what are the imbalances that you're focusing on? And so you might have a sense, you're not necessarily like going to be already triggered because if you're already triggered in a feeling state, then now we're in the reactive work, right?
[00:39:43] Rachel Kaplan: You feel what's coming out already. This is when you might know, okay. I have a lot of terror and I have a lot of shame and I'm going to see what's there. You know, you always want to be with what's real and what's available to you versus your idea of what you're supposed to move that day. But you might have a plan of like, I really want to create a safe space to work with my fear today.
[00:40:05] Rachel Kaplan: And so you'd go in, you'd, you know, create some time, set it aside, put your phone away. Slow down, turn toward the fear. Quick tip with fear. I'm sure this is familiar because you're, you're in Sharna's world. You're in good hands. But you know, you might ask, do I feel frenetic? Do I feel like I want to freak out and run and fight, or do I feel frozen?
[00:40:24] Rachel Kaplan: Do I feel more collapsed, , and like I need the swaddling? , and we can talk about the energetics of emotion and the basic difference is in the way they move. But depending on what that would be, if you're working with fear, you might set yourself up differently. You might, you know, put on, if you were frenetic, you might put on weird, you music and try to, you know, , erratically move and shake and jump if you felt more frozen and like you needed to cry because you feel helpless and terrified.
[00:40:49] Rachel Kaplan: Maybe you'd get in the bathtub or put on a weighted blanket and put on sad music and try to tune into the helplessness. So that intentional kind of setting aside time, the way you would go to a gym or the way you would go to yoga. , it's how you cultivate the practice and the skill and, and how you realize how hard and awkward it is, you know?
[00:41:10] Rachel Kaplan: And so you can start to troubleshoot specifically for you. Um, but I think it's like without that deep practice and commitment to keep showing up for ourselves, it's hard to get past, you know, kind of just like, The emotional ride of the day for most people, , now that being said, if you're in a state where you're, you're really suffering or struggling or you're feeling traumatized, you're feeling like you're not really functioning, I would say that isn't a moment you want to be doing that deep dive.
[00:41:38] Rachel Kaplan: You really want to just be using all your resources and skills. To resource yourself to make sure that you feel safe, that you're well fed, that you're sleeping, that you're taking whatever downtime you need, like kind of nervous system regulation and for sure feeling your feelings through if you're going through something hard so you don't get Flooded or overwhelmed or numb or go into addiction all of that But I wouldn't go digging for your core wounds from childhood like you got enough going on And that might be tricky like someone might always feel like they don't have space to do the deeper work and you know There's nothing wrong with that But you might want to check on a thought like that if that's actually just a fear of moving toward these more Young or vulnerable parts of you and what I'll say in conclusion of this Epic monologue is that, , you know, that taste like the relief that can come from one of these sessions, like until you taste that, until you see for yourself, not taking either of our words for it, that having a little bit of your pain actually brings more peace or you feel lighter or you feel more.
[00:42:40] Rachel Kaplan: Functional or you feel proud of yourself after sitting with something as big and scary and painful as shame Like until you taste that it's very hard to do this work You know, you might I try to be really inspiring and give you all the all the good juju But you really have to have that first experience for yourself.
[00:42:57] Rachel Kaplan: And then once that's in place, it's very self motivating Because you, like, feel better.
[00:43:02] Charna Cassell: Yeah, it's, it's also, I mean, you've touched on a lot of things in your epic monologue. , but, you know, in terms of how to build enough safety internally, how to build enough resilience and self trust, and it's like, before you have that first experience, especially doing it by yourself, like, maybe you're, you have an emotional release in the presence of a therapist, and you have the holding, and it's terrifying, yet there's someone else there.
[00:43:29] Charna Cassell: And it's not often until you can move through something like that and, and, and feel that space of peace that you're describing and realize that you weren't destroyed by it, right? They've done studies, right? Where it's, it's like somebody will spend their whole life avoiding an emotion that if they actually let themselves into it.
[00:43:48] Charna Cassell: It's like, okay, it's processed in 20 minutes. Yeah. It doesn't mean it's gone forever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It doesn't mean it's gone forever. It, it will return, but I think the, the more that you go into your feelings, you, you realize that nobody else is going to be totally obliterated because that's, I think the big fear, especially if you have an emotionally avoidant parent where you're like, like, they're going to not only will they not love me, but they may die if I feel this.
[00:44:16] Charna Cassell: Fear or grief, right? They
[00:44:17] Rachel Kaplan: may die and I might die because they'll abandon me. And when we were tiny babies, those were, you know, good thoughts to have.
[00:44:25] Charna Cassell: Yeah, yeah. One of the things that you talk about, which I think is important, right? It's like, feel the feelings and then reality check. Yeah. And so, right?
[00:44:33] Charna Cassell: That piece of like, yeah, you're not a baby anymore. Let's check it out. Is anybody going to cry?
[00:44:40] Rachel Kaplan: The aftermath of feeling, and you know, it's really important and the book explains this, that it is the aftermath. I mean, sometimes you need to do it before a really big, scary thing. Um, but a lot of people do it as soon as the feeling starts coming online and just, you know, that will shut down your feeling.
[00:44:56] Rachel Kaplan: , when you're, when you have the access to the feeling, you know, why am I feeling this is just shooting on yourself. It's bringing yourself back into your intellect. And so, reality testing and aftercare or self care after you have a big feeling release is so crucial. , but it's good to not do it instead of the feelings.
[00:45:14] Rachel Kaplan: Thanks. Or else it's like stitching up like a cut that has a bunch of dirt and gravel in it where it's going to get infected. So you feel first, you, you feel how true the feelings feel first, , there's help with that step and then, and then do the kind of, now is it actually true?
[00:45:31] Charna Cassell: And so what would, what do you say to your clients, um, who do come and they don't feel it?
[00:45:37] Charna Cassell: safe yet. They don't feel resilient. They don't trust their capacity.
[00:45:43] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. I mean, well, one of the things that I trust when someone comes in in that state is they're only going to get access to so much, you know, meaning like I have found that it's the rare person that is that terrified of their feelings that is going to be flooded.
[00:45:57] Rachel Kaplan: You know, most of the time when someone is, and I know that they do exist. But I find that most people, and I'm curious your stance since you're so much focused on the trauma and PTSD side, most of the time people are more going to struggle with numbness than flooding. , what do you think?
[00:46:15] Charna Cassell: You know what?
[00:46:15] Charna Cassell: This is a tricky question, Rachel, because I think we often attract, like, like attracts like. And so I do have, I have had a number of clients over the years whose systems, you know, my hands have to be on their physical body to start to help them feel themselves. , and how quickly people go into hypoarousal tells me a lot about their level of numbness.
[00:46:36] Charna Cassell: So like, if they start to get really drowsy and kind of go flaccid, if we're starting to do breath work or feel feelings, then I know that it's like, we need to be with an emotion for a minute. It's like little tiny homeopathic dosages, right? But I actually, because my system is a huge feeling system, I've attracted a lot of big feelers, and because of PTSD, like, because I work with so much of that, , I have worked with a lot of people who, who are, they're already flooded without, you know, like, their state doing anything, they're out of there, as, you know, I call the window of capacity to be with, and it's like they're out of their window, so, you know, it's very different strategies, physical containment breath and practices to bring someone back into their window if they're a big feeler or waking up, you know, the body practices if they're, , you know, if they're more numb.
[00:47:28] Charna Cassell: And then catching those moments, right, you know this, right, like people get away from their feelings, it's like it comes up and then, oop, the muscles like squeeze
[00:47:35] Rachel Kaplan: it back down.
[00:47:36] Rachel Kaplan: Right. And I do think that's why I bring up like the not thinking or trying to reality test or not asking the question why, because those are all surefire ways.
[00:47:43] Rachel Kaplan: to get you out of the feeling, whereas, you know, it'd be like mid pooping. Like, I don't want to do this. You know, like if you can stay with it, you know, and I also trusting that whatever little bit I'd say to answer your question, when someone doesn't have that, I mean, I trust that, you know, if, if they're terrified and they're not having a lot of feelings and they're, You know, confused about this that they're most likely going to get the smaller taste like, you know People will come back and report on they were able to stay with it for a minute And so, you know, I do rely on that and I rely on you know Luckily the season one of my podcast has been You know, teaching people in the YouTube video.
[00:48:19] Rachel Kaplan: So it's like I'm doing a lot of like really trying to scaffold and teach them and then in the session really be with them and model it and like help them kind of work it. , and then help them understand how they could do it for themselves. But yeah, I think, I think the work can be a little bit stop and start until Someone has a taste of the relief that comes from being with and a taste that yes, those feelings are not lethal , and then it really takes off, you know, I don't I for me personally I have had very few clients that are already in the flooded state and that might just be yeah me, you know I'm, not sure I will say while I was writing this I went to , the Embody Labs Somatic Trauma Training Institute and was like around some of the real leaders of the trauma world.
[00:49:06] Rachel Kaplan: And it was very instrumental for me because I was like, wow, the whole pulse of things of this culture and we're, did you do the somatic program at CIS or no?
[00:49:15] Charna Cassell: No, I had trained, , at the Strozzi Institute and with, , Stacey Haynes and Denise Benson doing somatics and trauma, which became generative somatics.
[00:49:25] Rachel Kaplan: Right.
[00:49:26] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. And so me, I
[00:49:27] Rachel Kaplan: had my own version too, so I didn't do it. So I don't actually like feel so steeped. I've probably had less somatic specific trauma training than you have. I, I do EMDR and whatnot, but I was like, wow, from what I can tell about this, it's culture, they've become incredibly careful and cautious and just basically bringing people to the kind of sidelines of the pain.
[00:49:49] Rachel Kaplan: And it was, it was striking to me and also instrumental. It really helped me make sure that there were enough permissions and like, kind of, Instructions for people who weren't in a place to do this deep work, you know, , in the book, I was glad I did it before I was done editing because, you know, I, I do think the majority of people who are picking up a book to learn how to feel are, they need help feeling, but it's a good reminder.
[00:50:15] Rachel Kaplan: And I also, I'm curious if, If there's an over cautiousness, you know, almost like a CYA ness in the field right now where it's like, are we trusting people that they can handle this, you know?
[00:50:27] Charna Cassell: Well, and I, I think it's important and I remember that you, you mentioned something like that in the book and I think it's a both and because, the moments, and I can say that I have moved through extraordinary terror.
[00:50:42] Charna Cassell: Like, had to process that with another person, but also on my own, and I'm at the point where, like, I might move through something, some, a witness, like a, a boyfriend that I was living with at the time, might be totally scared by what they see, but I have an observer, and I can, I'm totally okay, even if I look like I am freaking out, like, internally, like, my skin is on fire or something, And then it passes and it's totally fine, but that was because I built the trust.
[00:51:09] Charna Cassell: And so when you're, when you're working with complex PTSD, , there is the need to go very slowly because that's, that slow titration, uh, does build more trust. I think that like, if you're, And again, like you said, it's like who, who's, who's come to you, that's what you know the most. Right.
[00:51:32] Rachel Kaplan: Right. Right.
[00:51:32] Charna Cassell: , and so it's not how I move with everybody.
[00:51:34] Charna Cassell: And is there, you know, it's, it's like, even something I'm thinking of an example. , I had a client. You know, like had my hand on their body doing body work years ago, like 20 years ago, and said something about like, feel the ground rise up to meet you or I don't know. It was just like the language.
[00:51:55] Charna Cassell: This is the tricky thing is when there's been extreme trauma, like ritual abuse, , There's so much disorientation, like one moment can completely break trust or one word, excuse of word. So it's, I think that's, that's what you're hearing is like, there's a carefulness. , but then you have to also, , God, this is such a complex, we could do a whole conversation just on this and I'm aware of time.
[00:52:22] Charna Cassell: And so I want to give you time to, uh, to, to, You know, say anything else that you want to say, cause we're going to need to sign out, but let's have this conversation separately because yeah, it's a big, I think it's a big one.
[00:52:34] Rachel Kaplan: That's great. Yeah.
[00:52:35] Charna Cassell: And and yeah, go ahead.
[00:52:37] Rachel Kaplan: It's
[00:52:37] Rachel Kaplan: so refreshing to have this conversation with you as an expert, you know, because I'm doing a lot of interviews right now with people and it's it's such a different dynamic to be with someone who is, you know, in it so deeply and in in such a population that's really suffering and dealing with some of the biggest kind of hurdles, you know, of healing the biggest feelings or the most numbness and all of this.
[00:52:59] Rachel Kaplan: It's like it's really an honor. And, , Yeah. And, and I think you'd agree, right? That even those experiences are healable. It's like, even those big feelings, even those decades of numbness or deeply buried, horrific trauma, like it's possible to heal. And, , obviously that's, you're living that and
[00:53:16] Rachel Kaplan: it's an honor for me to be able to have this conversation with you specifically.
[00:53:21] Charna Cassell: Thank you, Rachel. And so, how can people find you?
[00:53:25] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah, everything I'm doing harkens back to your first question, is housed at thefeelingsmovement. com. And feelings is plural. And we already said what the movement means.
[00:53:37] Rachel Kaplan: And, , I do have, , I have a kind of DIY course, , that guides you through this process and a bunch of classes, that you can, if you like to work kind of at your own pace through your own computer, but have a little version of me on it. There's all kinds of stuff there. I do retreats, but, , that will also connect you to the book, to my podcast, to my social.
[00:53:57] Rachel Kaplan: So the feelings movement. com.
[00:54:01] Charna Cassell: Beautiful. So good to see you. Thank you so much.
[00:54:04] Rachel Kaplan: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
[00:54:06] Charna Cassell: Thank you for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like, rate and review it and share with your friends. I'd really appreciate it. And if you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at LateOpenPodcast. As well as If you go to charnacacell.
[00:54:22] Charna Cassell: com and join my newsletter, you'll receive up and coming announcements about courses, as well as resources and discounts.
[00:54:30] Charna Cassell: This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host, Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Until next time.
