Making Trauma Funny: The Power of Humor and Healing with Mark Walsh

Show Notes Making Trauma Funny: The Power of Humor and Healing with Mark Walsh [00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Welcome back to Laid Open Podcast. [00:00:04] Charna Cassell: During the hiatus, I finally finished my highly anticipated course, Pathways to Peace, Mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living. Even as I've been working on creating this course, I've used these exact tools to guide myself through situations that reactivated my childhood PTSD. I will teach you these skills along with how to understand your nervous system and reactions. [00:00:30] Charna Cassell: How to think more clearly and gain perspective. How to translate the ways your body communicates through physical sensations. How to identify emotions, where they come from, and what they are telling you. How to discover why you react in ways that produce shame and learn tools to manage these reactions. [00:00:48] Charna Cassell: How to reduce your anxiety and destructive impulses, and how to diminish self-hatred when you are not your best self. The early bird offer starts July 1st, so mark your calendar because it will only be offered for a limited time. If you wanna learn more before then, and I hope you do, you can go to my courses page, which is courses dot charna cael, that's C-A-S-S-E-L l.com for more information. [00:01:19] Charna Cassell: Today's guest is Mark Walsh and Mark and I know each other from over 20 years ago when we trained at the Strozzi Institute and he's all grown up now. Welcome, welcome Mark. [00:01:34] music: Learn how to live embodied If it's about to unwind Uncover new tools and start healing Leave trauma and tension behind Isn't it great laid open Let all your desires come true How can you live laid open Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new. [00:02:19] Mark Walsh: You haven't aged but I definitely have so nice to see you again, Charna. [00:02:24] Charna Cassell: Well, you've been up to some remarkable things and I'm, I'm excited to have this conversation with you. So thank you for your time. I know it's full and precious. [00:02:32] Mark Walsh: Yeah, I've been a busy boy. These days a little bit more spacious, but yeah, it's been, been a busy 20 years. [00:02:38] Charna Cassell: Yeah. So you're mainly, you, , are known as a coach and you also have the embodiment podcast and you're over there in England. [00:02:49] Charna Cassell: Where are you exactly? [00:02:51] Mark Walsh: I am near Stonehenge, so I'm in the west of England, in a little hippie town called Froome, which may be near Bath, people have probably heard of, which is, you know, where the Roman baths are. So in the green, kind of looks like Hobbiton out the window, like green rolling hills. [00:03:06] Charna Cassell: That's, that sounds, my whole body just relaxes and softens when I picture that. [00:03:11] Mark Walsh: Your ancestral resourcing uh, happening. [00:03:14] Charna Cassell: Right. Right. You're tapping back, you know, five generations. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I know that you're, you have a very full life with the things I just listed and, and, but what's exciting you right now? What are you thinking a lot about? [00:03:33] Mark Walsh: I mean, yeah, most of my life is training coaches and embodiment. [00:03:36] Mark Walsh: That's my main thing. You know, supporting charity in Ukraine is always a pleasure. I always love making creative things. Like we just made a book on people pleasing. I just we do a lot of YouTube, a lot of videos, a lot of content. One nice thing about being ADHD and not having a filter, while it gets me in a lot of trouble, means I'm constantly making good content, which I enjoy a lot. [00:03:55] Mark Walsh: I think a topic that's fascinating for me right now is why we're all fucking crazy. So I'm, I'm, I've noticed with disturbing, increasing disturbance, how unwell the world is. And I, you know, I'm in, I don't know, 20 countries a year, and everywhere I go, people seem more and more insane. [00:04:16] Charna Cassell: I think [00:04:16] Mark Walsh: it's. We just hit a wall we've been heading towards for several hundred years that really interests me, like, what can be done about that? [00:04:23] Mark Walsh: Cause I, you know, we're doing a pretty interesting experiment, which is how crazy can we make everyone and still have a society that more or less functions? And I'm not sure that's a great experiment. So, um, yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. [00:04:35] Charna Cassell: Do you, Are you thinking a lot about how it may relate to COVID and Isolation, or just beyond that, you've made a little. [00:04:44] Mark Walsh: Yeah, the twit, well picked up. So, the, I mean, I think for some young people, like I've got a lot of friends with teenage kids and it's a major factor for them. I mean, it's multifactorial, which means there's no one solution. But I think maybe that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, we've been heading towards increasing social isolating and lack of co regulation for the last, you know, Let's say 5, 000 years, but particularly the last 300 years. [00:05:12] These guys don't help, right? I'm holding my phone up for people who can't see. Technology is [00:05:15] Mark Walsh: a big one. I mean, post modernity, culture, technology there are economics, you know, there are a number of factors there. And, you know, if anyone else was, like, if you say, why are people crazy? That's such a big question. [00:05:29] Mark Walsh: If anyone offers you a Yeah, making trauma funny [00:05:30] Charna Cassell: of course. [00:05:31] Mark Walsh: You know, that they're selling something. So, yeah, definitely. I think tech is a big one. I'm, I'm very interested in where AI is going and tech and, you know, where that's leading because embodiment and tech are kind of, complimentary kind of sides of things. [00:05:46] Mark Walsh: So, yeah, that's all very interesting to me. [00:05:49] Charna Cassell: Yeah, well, yeah, it's an interesting to be in the mental health field right now regarding that, because I used to before COVID before things were so remote, when someone would do telehealth, I would think it was, it was a little wacky, given I really value presence, I value touch, I value embodiment. [00:06:10] Charna Cassell: And I saw that there was there was still some value, , online, but I still feel like I can feel people better over a phone than through a video. And I noticed myself and I don't know, I mean, there is something to zoom brain, but it's like, I'm so much more tired from. [00:06:28] Mark Walsh: Yeah, everyone's, I say, dead, you know, distracted, exhausted. [00:06:32] Mark Walsh: It's what's the A? I forget the A. And depressed, anxious and depressed, you know, and then it is part of it, you know. And I, I think some of that is just lack of co regulation. Some of that is, is certain kind of more spiritual and psychological factors. I mean, for me, I want a girlfriend, not a pen pal. [00:06:50] Mark Walsh: For me, I know, for example, if I'm doing a podcast with someone that I've spent three days dancing with, that podcast goes so much better than if I just met them online. I mean, even someone like you, who I've got an embodied memory of this 20 years old is a hell of a lot better than nothing compared to someone I'm, you know, if I'm being interviewed by someone for the very first time. [00:07:07] Mark Walsh: So I think maybe COVID and maybe the tech. is teaching us what embodiment is and why it matters. Like, I think COVID underlined what co regulation is and the importance of touch and the importance of connection and community in a way that maybe to us is obvious, but wasn't necessarily obvious to lawmakers and, you know, people that weren't factoring that in, in their decision making. [00:07:28] Mark Walsh: So, yeah, when things kind of hit a crisis point, The things that have been keeping us sane all the years or, you know, the generations all of a sudden become more obvious rather than just invisible. [00:07:39] Charna Cassell: Well, and I think that there's actually the positive piece was, you know, clients who were incredibly anxious or OCD or had different Concerns before COVID, they suddenly felt normal, right? [00:07:51] Charna Cassell: So it was kind of like all the things that were, right? That everything's, everything that's suppressed, everything's just, that's just like right under the surface of that subconscious that we're not putting our attention on. Suddenly it's spring and everything's blooming, right? So the crazy's out. Until you see something, right? [00:08:09] Charna Cassell: Like, you know, when I, I garden and when I plant bulbs, like I'll plant a bunch of bulbs and then I'll be like, Oh my God, I don't know where there's space to plant something else. Right. And so until it blooms, you can't see it. And until you see it, you can't address it. So I'm just thinking like in a way, the pot, the glass half full version of it, yes, things are highly escalated in so many ways. [00:08:34] Charna Cassell: But until they break through the surface and they're visible, we can't actually address them. And hopefully, we're coming up with some new solutions as things break, fall apart. They have to come together, hopefully, in a new way. That's a, that's, you know, totally optimistic. [00:08:53] Mark Walsh: Yeah, no, it makes sense. You know, get things out in the open. [00:08:55] Mark Walsh: I, the joke I make is something with ADHD is, Oh, because of technology, everybody else is ADHD now. I'm like, oh, yeah, you've all got it too now. Cool. Welcome to the club. Welcome to squirrel club. And I think it's like that anxiety and depression and trauma and many other things. I would say though that people don't know how bad things can get. [00:09:12] Mark Walsh: Like, uh, I just, the weekend watched the movie Civil War about a modern American civil war, which historian friends of mine say is quite likely to happen. And I, a friend about it afterwards and he said, Oh my God, you know, man's inhumanity to man. It's so depressing. And I laughed and I said, that was a really tame film. [00:09:30] Mark Walsh: Having been around several really serious civil wars, like Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. There was nothing nearly as nasty in that film as a civil war would really get. And we have been listening, you know, America has a particular geography, which means it's hard to invade. And we have been through the period of what's called the big piece in history, which is very unlikely to sustain and very unusual in human history. [00:09:52] Mark Walsh: So at the risk of depressing all our listeners the glass isn't half empty, the glass is smashed. [00:09:57] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Well, and you're also, you're doing some important work and you, you started a, a, is it a, would you say it's a foundation that you, you do training for volunteers in Ukraine? [00:10:11] Mark Walsh: Yeah, it's an unregistered charity in Ukraine. [00:10:14] Mark Walsh: So, you know, I went out there, delivered a bunch of medical supplies, and then started training people to teach people about trauma. So, you know, I've been going to Ukraine on and off for 10 years. I met my wife, actually, the interpreter in Ukraine years ago. So I had the connections, and I knew people, and they basically said, Look, we don't have enough psychologists, but People who are just smart young people with a bit of psychology can actually do a lot of good just by informing people around trauma without actually doing therapy. [00:10:42] Mark Walsh: like trauma education rather than therapy, which you can train much quicker than therapy. So I, you know, trained a couple of hundred trauma educators out there. And then as, you know, I've been supervising them at a certain point, really smart young women in your ways, because the men are all in the military. [00:10:56] Mark Walsh: And I've been supervising them at a certain point. I said, look, You girls are smart. You know what you're doing when I just handed it over to them. And now it's a registered charity in Ukraine. And I mean, they made Lviv the world's most trauma informed city, and now they're working on Kiev and Odessa. [00:11:11] Mark Walsh: So, I mean, I'm very, very proud of what those young women have achieved. [00:11:15] Charna Cassell: I was listening to an episode and I can't remember the woman's name that you're interviewing. That she was someone who had trained with you and she say, what was her name? Please. [00:11:24] Mark Walsh: Her name is Christina. She's one of the team. She's regularly teaching soldiers on the front line and worried. [00:11:30] Mark Walsh: She calls me trauma daddy, which is a fucked up term and she regularly sends me little voice messages. This thing's blowing up in the background. I'm like, I'm like worries the shit out of me, but I'm very proud of her. So yeah, she's one of the main trainers. [00:11:42] Charna Cassell: I really enjoyed the conversation between the two of you in terms of, you know, thinking about the process of establishing that training and all that goes into creating that. [00:11:55] Charna Cassell: I mean, I think that so many people are sitting in experiences of powerlessness and want to do something. And, you know, the dialogue that you were in with yourself was like, do I go and fight? Well, no, actually, I'm, I have the skills to do this other thing, right? To offer training, right? Yes, [00:12:14] Mark Walsh: that was a good decision. [00:12:15] Mark Walsh: Thank you to my friend, Alex, who nudged me. He was like, Mark if you go fight, you're just going to get killed because you're a rubbish soldier, but you're a very good trauma teacher. So why don't you go do that? So, um, yes, that's Alex Howard. He runs the trauma super conference. [00:12:26] Mark Walsh: Shout out. Good friend of mine. I think we all need to make use of our talents. And I don't really think things through and I have an unrealistic sense of my own capacities. And that means that I do stuff uh, sometimes gets me in hot water. In this case, there was a lot of grace involved that it all worked out quite well. [00:12:43] Charna Cassell: Which is remarkable, I mean, you know, if you, if you're someone who's an over planner, you probably feel defeated before you begin, you know, but one of the things that the two of you were talking about, which is here you are your, your, your in a war zone and you're trying to do this education in your real life, like live action, getting the responses, the fight flight freeze responses. [00:13:10] Charna Cassell: You don't have to do any probes or very [00:13:13] Mark Walsh: helpful. I mean, it is inconvenient doing half a training in a bomb shelter. I'm now a bomb shelter connoisseur, you know, when I pick venues now, I'm like, what a lovely bomb shelter, excellent bomb shelter. This was a bomb shelter with wifi. It's fantastic. [00:13:26] Mark Walsh: So yeah, I mean, you don't really have to do exercises when you're getting rocket attacked or, you know, whatever. So it does give a live action way of training things. So I, I mean, jokes aside, the last training we did, we didn't crack off because I said, I said, girls, fuck this. We need to get some work done. [00:13:43] Mark Walsh: It's much easier to do it in Poland, in a nice place, overlooking the opera house in Poland and everyone's eating nice food and having a nice time. You know, it's just way easier when the nervous system's settled to learn anything. So I mean, it's a real challenge doing training in life threatening areas. [00:14:00] Mark Walsh: It's not, I wouldn't recommend it. I mean, you have to spend several hours a day just keeping everyone kind of calm enough and more regulated enough to learn. Whereas in Poland, we don't have to do that. You know, that was the last training we did was like an advanced training. So yeah, there was definitely challenges to that kind of thing. [00:14:17] Charna Cassell: Well, and, and the, there's the, as you, as you noted, it's like when you're, when your brain is in high beta. Brain like with the brain waves are in high beta fight flight. You're not able to think clearly. You can't take in new information. You know, a lot of the work that I'm doing in this very tame zone like couples therapy or, you know, You know, teaching co regulation to a couple is how important it is to get back into this window of what I call window of capacity to be with your emotions and sensations, like how to regulate yourself or regulate with another person before you can finish that hard conversation. [00:14:56] Charna Cassell: Right. [00:14:57] Mark Walsh: Warzones are far less scary than couples counseling though, having done [00:14:59] Charna Cassell: both. [00:15:01] Mark Walsh: That's far more intense. There's too much attachment and emotional stuff involved, you know, you don't have attachment issues with a bomb. But yeah, I'm with you, we need to keep people in that space of sort of rest, digest, and connect is the key thing, right? [00:15:12] Mark Walsh: Where we can actually learn, we can take in new information, we can empathize. I mean, that all goes out the window with enough stress. [00:15:20] Charna Cassell: Well, and so again, just coming back to kind of the awe for me, knowing you know, I was doing trauma education with teachers at an orphanage in Nepal and with the kids and then giving them the resources, like trauma and resilience education, to then teach do that work with their students and for the kids to then do that work with each other. [00:15:42] Charna Cassell: And the conditions, you know, obviously they're way less stressful and even still seeing what just talking about trauma and seeing things, you know, elevate in people. And then we would take a, we would take a tea break and then they would naturally like, they would actually sing and dance. That was just bred into [00:16:00] Mark Walsh: their culture, right? [00:16:03] Charna Cassell: Right. I mean, it's [00:16:04] Mark Walsh: really white people who don't do that all the time. [00:16:06] Charna Cassell: Exactly. So I, you know, I was curious about that. I was curious about the, like the embodiment practices in between the, the psychoeducation of, about trauma. Like what were you, what were you getting to do with people to, to regulate them? [00:16:20] Mark Walsh: Well, Ukrainians are East Europeans, so they're not like Southern Europeans, they're not like North Europeans and North Americans, so they've still got some of that cultural heritage. You know, like a lot of we've said, like, you know, joking about white people, well, that's several different groups, actually, and East Europeans don't suffer the problems as Germans and English and, you know, North Americans have in that regard. [00:16:37] Mark Walsh: So, for example, there is a nice video of them singing in a bomb shelter, which is, you know, singing some songs, which is very co regulatory, and dancing as well. You know, there's a number of Ukrainian dancers we played with, but then, you know, we did meta meditation every morning. We did T. R. E. shaking, we did E. [00:16:53] Mark Walsh: F. T. tapping we did various somatic movement practices various discharge practices, various calming practices. We did, I, I tell a lot of jokes, which goes, my sort of Anglo Irish humor goes down very well in Ukraine. They're also have a similarly dark sense of humor. So, I mean, if you see me do a trauma training, it looks like standup comedy. [00:17:13] Mark Walsh: Mostly I'm using a lot of jokes, and they love the dark jokes, so I mean, I won't use them on air because it would be too much for some listeners in California. But you know, they love that dark humor, so that's part of it as well. And um, yeah, so everything from dancing to singing to trauma release exercises. [00:17:29] Mark Walsh: I forget, some breathing exercises, a lot of centering from Paul Lindum, one of my main teachers. And it's actually, what's really interesting is the team then went and trained like a few hundred thousand people and they came back and said, here's what works. And that was really interesting because most of the people who are teaching in the trauma world today, the rock stars of trauma, slightly bizarre. [00:17:50] Mark Walsh: Phenomenon of since we met, for example, 20 years ago, [00:17:55] Charna Cassell: isn't it crazy? [00:17:57] Mark Walsh: 20 years ago, I was like, what's Trump and now it's like, you know, there's Gabbo on the TV. It's bizarre. [00:18:05] Charna Cassell: I remember back. I mean, it was over 20 years ago and I just reading waking the tiger. Right. It was one of the few books and about Rothschild and that there are a few books out there. [00:18:15] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And I just remember being like, this, this book tells me that this is a trauma response. My anxiety is not who I am, you know, and now there's, it's, yeah, it's a big field. But what were, what were you going to say? [00:18:25] Mark Walsh: Most of the people working trauma today really are disconnected from the kind of hardcore frontline of trauma. [00:18:30] Mark Walsh: I mean, David Buscelli of TRE is an exception because of his humanitarian work. He's a great guy. But most of them are sort of, you know, living quite middle class, first world problem kind of environments. And I actually, because of the conference we did and the podcast I have, I have access to sort of all the, you know, the big names of trauma globally. [00:18:47] Mark Walsh: And a lot of my email before the Ukraine training, I said, Hey, you got any advice? What should I do? And some were very helpful. Like Stephen Porges was very helpful, but a bunch said uh, I have no idea. I can't help you. They're like, they basically said, I don't really deal with real trauma. So in, in terms of like testing really what works on the sharp edge of things as well. [00:19:06] Mark Walsh: Yeah, there is, I mean, also now it's big business, so everybody's selling a technique, right? And, you know, we actually have a phrase in Ukraine, which is nothing works. And that's slightly sort of dark Ukrainian humor. What we mean is nothing works for everyone, always, all the time. So, like, if you're not multimodality, if you're not looking at the wider perspective of things, then, you know, you're really missing a trick. [00:19:28] Mark Walsh: And I think, you know, most people now are selling a modality, their own TM. And that's really changed in the time since I met you. [00:19:34] Charna Cassell: Yeah. [00:19:35] Mark Walsh: I mean, it's fascinating, we think what's changed since then. The world has changed, the mindfulness revolution, that's changed, you know, the availability of mindfulness in the world. [00:19:43] Mark Walsh: I mean, I get, I used to be like, what the hell is embodiment? People used to ask me and now more and more people have sort of some idea of what that is. You know, I talked to a major publisher today and they want to do like a little pictorial coffee table book about embodiment. And I was like, okay, wow, we've got mainstream now. [00:20:00] Mark Walsh: That's [00:20:00] Charna Cassell: amazing. It's so funny. It's like, you know, I used to be called an embodiment coach or you know, master somatic coach. Then I was like, well, maybe an embodiment coach. And then I was working with a business coach friend and she was like, I don't think people know what embodiment is. [00:20:17] Mark Walsh: And she's like, don't use that. [00:20:18] Mark Walsh: Don't [00:20:19] Charna Cassell: use [00:20:20] Mark Walsh: that. [00:20:20] Mark Walsh: I mean, I used to do a lot of corporate work, like stress and leadership training. I still do a little bit of corporate. And um, you know, I didn't even mention embodiment. I just say interactive leadership training, something like that, you [00:20:31] Charna Cassell: know, [00:20:32] Mark Walsh: didn't say embodied. But I mean now it's become almost a buzzword and, you know, myself and other people have done a good job of popularizing the word and kind of getting it out and, you know, like anything it will have problems is overused and misused and it's already getting some funny connotations. [00:20:48] Mark Walsh: So, um, whatever, you know, whatever. [00:20:51] Charna Cassell: How is it that this grabbed you so strongly and it became your path? Like what is it about embodiment? Yeah, well, it's compelled you. I mean, similar to me, and I, you know, I have my own story. So what is it that? [00:21:02] Mark Walsh: Well, I think I was very disembodied, right? So I mean, you will, we always learn what we need, and then end up teaching it if you get good enough, you know, overshoot, overshoot average and get into a skill that you can actually teach. [00:21:12] Mark Walsh: So I think for me, it was having a pretty traumatic childhood. And also being hyper intellectual, you know, I grew up amongst teachers and I was very cerebral. And what I found was despite being very cerebral, that didn't actually solve my problems. You know, like, like everyone was telling me I was a genius. [00:21:27] Mark Walsh: And in fact, I was really screwed up and I was suicidal and alcoholic and all the rest of it. And, you know, as a sort of teenage, as a teenager, I remember being, I was 18 years old. I'd fallen out of love for the first time. I was heartbroken in a way that I just didn't understand because I had no relational skills and I was drug and alcohol addicted and deeply suicidal. [00:21:47] Mark Walsh: And I, you know, went to university and I remember just walking past the library and going, I don't think the answer's in there. Cause I read the last library at my high school, what you would call high school. I literally read the library, every book. And I went, I don't think the answer's in there. And then I saw a poster up or whatever saying, you know, Aikido. [00:22:03] Mark Walsh: And I thought, okay, let's do some martial arts. That'd be good. Cause I was a sort of minor criminal at the time. And I thought it'd be helpful just from a sort of self defense point of view. And um, I walked into an Aikido dojo and I was like, Oh, this, I don't know what this is, but I saw the movement and the power and the grace and the discipline. [00:22:20] Mark Walsh: And I was like, Oh, this is a form of education I haven't had. That you can't get from a book, because I fell for the lie of Western society, which is knowledge is learning about things rather than learning to do or to be. And that's, you know, that's become the theme of my life is essentially being. a better educator than I had access to. [00:22:41] Mark Walsh: So, I don't know, that's, that's a sort of um, I mean, all Genesis stories are lies, but, you know, there's some truth in that one. [00:22:49] Charna Cassell: I also want to acknowledge, just coming back to, to joking and laughter, like how essential it is, because it, on an energetic level, it's like, it clears The energy, right? It resets the energy. [00:23:04] Mark Walsh: It does a few things. It does that and a few other things. It does about 90. [00:23:08] Charna Cassell: Yeah, go ahead. Say more. [00:23:11] Mark Walsh: Well, okay. So, humor is a big part of Anglo Irish culture. I remember when I was in America and it's not that there aren't great American stand ups. There are, like, you know, I love Dave Chappelle. There's so many stand ups, like Bill Hicks. [00:23:21] Mark Walsh: There's so many American stand ups I love. As a culture, it doesn't have humor in it in the same way as, say, Australia or South Africa, New Zealand, Ireland. You know, if you go to the average building site in England, you'll hear just amazing banter, just amazing humor. I remember when I first went to a bar in America and people said, you're hilariously funny and, you know, it's like you're a stand up comedian. [00:23:41] Mark Walsh: I was like, this is normal where I come from. But since then, I've really worked on it as a skill because I realized that it has Real, it can, you can do, this is partly pulled into, it's in the Jewish tradition quite strongly as well actually. So I realized humor can do things, you can do things with humor you can't do with seriousness. [00:23:58] Mark Walsh: So for example like deepening connection but also sometimes breaking connection. You know, it can get you deeper into something or if it's like, hey, it's coming towards the end of this session and we need to lighten things up and let's get out of this a little bit because I want this person wrapped up and ready to, you know, go back to their life in 10 minutes, you know. [00:24:14] Mark Walsh: You can give bad news in a way you can't otherwise. You can plant seeds of intuitive knowledge, like with stories do this as well, that you can't just logically tell people. You can say the unsayable, which is a real problem that You know, people are coming after the, you know, the woke crowd are coming after comedians because they actually comedians in a culture like the jester in the core actually perform a very important emotional function for everyone. [00:24:40] Mark Walsh: There's things you can do with humor that you just can't. I'm obviously just dangerous too, but there's things you can do with humor you just can't do. Elsewhere. So I like to think of myself as the funniest trauma trainer, and I'd love one day to do a course called making trauma funny which I think would be, would be very wise. [00:24:57] Charna Cassell: Well, I feel like it was a missed opportunity. I don't know why I didn't think to reach out to you. At the beginning of quarantine, that was one of the things I wanted to make funny trauma videos. because I felt like that was key. It's like, I wanted to do education, [00:25:13] Mark Walsh: but, [00:25:13] Charna Cassell: but I needed, I needed to, to, to have more laughter. [00:25:17] Charna Cassell: And I wanted, and I wanted to offer that to people. Right. I, I did a, I did a one woman show. close to 20 years ago. And it was about healing from trauma somatically, but also working at good vibrations, right? So like selling sex toys, right? So, so it was actually very funny, but it was also about healing from sexual trauma. [00:25:39] Charna Cassell: Right. And so I saw the value of those two things of like how it would help people regulate from a more intense scene. And so perhaps you and I should make, make some funny trouble. We can play with that. [00:25:52] Mark Walsh: It's also a good canary, right? Whatever you don't have a sense of humor around, you're probably far too attached to. [00:25:58] Mark Walsh: Like it's a canary that when the canary is dead, it tells you something, right? So it's like, you know, what if people lost their sense of humor around these days? Like there's a whole bunch of topics. And also I think, you know, lack of humor is a way of controlling people as well, because there is a liberating quality in it. [00:26:12] Mark Walsh: And, you know, as you say, you could. In terms of like, why would you joke about dark things, so, so we can talk about them at all. You know, like that's the only way you can talk about certain things with certain people. Talking about humor though isn't funny. It all gets very serious as soon as you talk about humor. [00:26:26] Mark Walsh: But yeah, I think it's an underdone piece of the overly sincere personal growth world. And I'm not the only one, right? Like J. P. Spears has poked so much fun at the spirituality community, you know, there's all sorts of other people who have, you know, poked fun at it in a way, which I think is really needed when anything takes itself too seriously, the, the gesture just pops up. [00:26:44] Mark Walsh: Yeah. [00:26:44] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and with all the polarization that's occurring, like I'm, I'm picturing you kind of like dancing your way through a minefield. [00:26:52] Mark Walsh: Yeah. No, I've stepped on most of those mines before. And, you know, I'm still here and I'm sure you'll get letters to everyone listening to this in California and Portland writing Charna a letter complaint. [00:27:05] Mark Walsh: Here's what I'd like you to do. Put that on a piece of paper and wipe your ass with it and flush it down the toilet because no one's listening anymore. [00:27:12] Charna Cassell: Well, you know, what's really interesting, Mark, is I think that I have more listeners in you know, Guatemala Turkey, Greece, like all of these countries. I get the little, I get these little podcast alerts, you know, it's like, where Where is it ranking and holding high, you know, and much, I feel like it ranks much higher. [00:27:32] Charna Cassell: We're, we just have way too many podcasts to listen to in America. So, you know, hopefully the people out there are, are laughing along with you. [00:27:43] Mark Walsh: Let's go. I mean, it's a sort of cultural stuff and I'm obsessed with cultures. And, you know, if you teach embodiment in Europe, you soon realized there's all these different embodiments very close together. [00:27:51] Mark Walsh: I remember that was really tricky when I was in California, when I met you, that people didn't thought any kind of reference to culture was kind of racist or discriminatory. And in Europe, that's just a little bit different because you can drive two hours and be in another country. And like this note, like when I was teaching in Ukraine, there was no denying culture. [00:28:07] Mark Walsh: You know, there's no denying culture. I've got a lot of good German jokes when I teach there, you know, when I teach in France, God forbid. You know, there's, there's, these cultures are quite close together. They're one hour flight away, a lot of them, and they're real different for approaching embodiment, how you teach. [00:28:20] Mark Walsh: It has to be really different. That's become a bit of a speciality of the house, you know, coach training, I would say that kind of cultural understanding piece. [00:28:28] Charna Cassell: I love that. That's, that's awesome. So you, you know, it's like, I picked, do you have a photographic memory that you can log all of the different cultural jokes into and keep them all organized? [00:28:38] Charna Cassell: It [00:28:39] Mark Walsh: always does come up. I mean, I was in Switzerland recently and there was 17 rules written in German on the outside of the sauna. And, you know, obviously there was going to be some jokes about that, you know, but it, but it's yeah, I think I see the embodiments, right? Like every culture is an embodiment. [00:28:54] Mark Walsh: Every culture is a. Like if we use a model, you know, it's this combination of length, width, and depth or whatever, right? Like, you know, English people a bit squashed this way, Irish a bit more out. Is the friendship very specific? You know, there's, there's embodiments to all of them, which when you taste the embodiment, you can actually step into that culture and that's great for empathy. [00:29:14] Mark Walsh: It's great for building range. So, you know, I love to step into the different cultures and feel the quality of Japanese ness or whatever it is. And, you know, of course there are, we should be careful not to over generalize and of course there are subdivisions within any country. But, you know, anyone who thinks culture doesn't exist just hasn't traveled. [00:29:33] Mark Walsh: So it's it's a real, I think in terms of embodiment, we're always in contexts. So we have our own personal embodiment, but then, you know, we have a relational embodiment like with man. Right. And then we have a, another context would be a cultural embodiment, the environmental embodiment, right? If we were doing this interview in a cathedral, it'd be a very different interview than a cave. [00:29:53] Mark Walsh: Right. So we're, we're always embodied in people and place and, you know, all those things are happening, whereas the kind of Western psychological model tends to view us as sort of isolated Thatcherite kind of consumer individuals. [00:30:06] Charna Cassell: I mean, [00:30:07] Mark Walsh: you know, looking at stress without looking at economics is ridiculous. [00:30:10] Mark Walsh: It's You know, these, these are like big factors. So anyway, a little bit of a ramble there. [00:30:16] Charna Cassell: But a useful ramble. What practices around you? You mentioned it a little bit earlier, and I can't remember if it was in a conversation we were having here or before we started, but talking about vicarious trauma. [00:30:30] Charna Cassell: So I'm thinking about the work that you were doing, and I know you're not doing it 90 percent of the time. It's 10 percent of your time, but [00:30:37] Mark Walsh: so [00:30:40] Charna Cassell: the work in Ukraine, but also just, you know, anytime that you're working with students, clients. What are you doing to manage your own stability, regulation, and Prevent vicarious trauma. [00:30:56] Mark Walsh: Yeah, I mean, I teach coaches this. It's a, you know, at least an hour long lecture, right? But I mean, the main things are like, what's my capacity, knowing my capacity, and that can be like how many clients I have in a day. And that would be a very different number if it's British clients or Ukrainian clients. [00:31:11] Mark Walsh: That's a very different number of how many I want to work with in a day. And then it's the subjectively, where am I at right now with my well being, you know, all the basic well being factors, sleep, I think is way underestimated, you know, exercise. And then, you know, then there's what I do during, that's state as I am. [00:31:26] Mark Walsh: And then there's, during the training, what I do during the training with my own embodiment. Stiffness, your dog's just come in. Yes, [00:31:33] Charna Cassell: it's Elijah. Come on in. [00:31:36] Mark Walsh: Great. So yeah, like not welcoming in trainer trauma, like a, like a, you know, a pleasant dog. There's things you do during the training visualizations and there's discharge techniques afterwards, like the TRE or whatever it is. [00:31:49] Mark Walsh: Um, I give a lot to nature as well. I'm a big believer in eco regulation. So I spend a lot of time in nature. I find that very, very helpful. Who I'm around who's not traumatized. The right mixture of movement and stillness, aloneness, and social connection. So there's sort of two polarities, and if one isn't working, I go to the other one. [00:32:10] Mark Walsh: Right, so if I'm isolating, you might need social support. If I'm dancing all the time, running around, I might need stillness. If I'm sitting on the couch on my own, I might need to go dance. So, like, there's a whole bunch of algorithms to run around that. But I think some of it's just the sort of wisdom that comes through experience, right? [00:32:26] Mark Walsh: And just going, you know, things like, I remember I taught in Sierra Leone for 10 days with traumatized soldiers without a co trainer. That was like 15 years ago. I would never do that now. I'd refuse the job without a co trainer. So, you know, also the environmental conditions I was in there weren't great, you know, so there's, there's a whole bunch of factors. [00:32:47] Mark Walsh: I mean, that's a training in and of itself, but hopefully that gives you, gives something useful to listeners. Thanks. [00:32:51] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And what are you, what are you doing currently for yourself? [00:32:55] Mark Walsh: Yeah, I'm doing a lot of nature connections. So I have a kind of animist pagan y practice. I've been studying with Josh Shry, who I highly recommend. [00:33:04] Mark Walsh: He's from The Emerald, which is a podcast of mine. So I've been studying with him and really getting into the sort of nature connection and mythology side of embodiment. So I've got practices around that. I'm a long term meditator. That doesn't change. I do some breath work, though, pretty less than I used to. [00:33:19] Mark Walsh: I lift weights. That has the last few years that's been a very consistent practice of, it's very simple and it helps me kind of hit a high so I can then relax afterwards. There's kind of two ways to relax, right? You can either relax directly or you can go up to go down. So I find weights really helps. [00:33:36] Mark Walsh: It's very portable as well. With all the travel I do, it's, it's really hard to get to a good Fire Rhythm studio or Aikido studio, but it's really good. It's really easy to get to a gym. I practice gratitude. I go do 12 step programs. And I dance once a week, if at all possible. [00:33:53] Charna Cassell: Now, [00:33:54] Mark Walsh: beauty is another practice. [00:33:55] Mark Walsh: I'm, I'm I insist on being around beauty. [00:34:00] Charna Cassell: I, I very, we have very similar practices. And I, I just have to say the Emerald podcast. So I was going to be in that class with Josh and, and my friends and I decided we have a certain amount of skills among us that we, we created our own group. And so we, we pick a episode every month and you know, do practices in nature with it. [00:34:24] Charna Cassell: And so I just, I adore his podcast and I really appreciate it. That episode that you did with him. [00:34:31] Mark Walsh: Yeah, no, I interviewed him for my podcast, which I, it worked quite well because I researched him a lot. Yeah, listeners should probably start with the revolution will not be psychologized. For all the over analytical, over therapeutic people that would be very, very useful. [00:34:46] Mark Walsh: He says there's things you can do with ritual that you can't do with psychology. Yeah. So yeah, it's just, it's great. And you know, we're very lucky, aren't we, these days to what we have access to. I mean, there's so much, I mean, my life's mission was to make the world's embodied wisdom free to all. And I've kind of done that now, you know, like with the conferences we've done with the podcast, with the YouTube channel. [00:35:09] Mark Walsh: I mean, it's absolutely crazy. I mean, like one of our Instagram videos has got 2. 7 million views. [00:35:14] Charna Cassell: That's amazing. I [00:35:15] Mark Walsh: literally couldn't have imagined that when we met 20 years ago. Instagram wasn't a thing. And, you know, I broadcast three million downloads and I'm not boasting here, it's just like, I'm genuinely astounded and, and now people can get access to the information without spending little or no money. [00:35:32] Mark Walsh: You know, you might have to buy 50 bucks of conference recordings or something, right? But like this, for example, if someone's a yoga teacher or a phone and press teacher, there's like no excuse for not being trauma informed now. There's no excuse. Like you could spend a weekend listening to the best teachers in the world and learn more. [00:35:47] Mark Walsh: Learn enough to at least be sort of the basics, you know, so, yeah, I think we live in a wonderful time and that's very interesting. And there's, you know, it's crazy making time we're in, but I think the profusion of information, which in many ways does send us insane in this regard, I think is, you know, I had to fly to California and live in a hut. [00:36:05] Mark Walsh: To learn this stuff. You know, my friend Tessify had to have me fly to Ethiopia to train him. And like that kind of stuff just doesn't exist. That's not necessary anymore. So that's pretty cool. [00:36:16] Charna Cassell: And, and you mentioned Paul Linden, who I read an article with like, you know, 20 years ago or something. And I had wanted to study with him and I didn't. [00:36:25] Charna Cassell: How did you connect with Paul? [00:36:27] Mark Walsh: So Paul was involved in a peace project in the Middle East called Training Across Borders, which brought together people from war zones in Cyprus in the Green Green Line, which is the no man's land between North and South Cyprus. And that was founded by Don Levine, who was one of my main mentors, who was at the University of Chicago. [00:36:44] Mark Walsh: Richard Strozzi Hekler was involved in that, various other people, but Paul was doing trauma work there, because you can't do peace work without trauma work, because otherwise everyone still wants to kill each other. And I remember seeing Paul do a workshop with Israelis and Palestinians, pretty topical, and I remember it going pretty well. [00:37:01] Mark Walsh: And I remember thinking, I don't know what this weird, funny little old Jewish guy is saying, but I like it. And I was, then I just said, Hey, can I come stay with you? And he's pretty cool. His wife didn't like it much, but you know, I came to live in his basement for a while and stay in his dojo in Columbus, Ohio. [00:37:16] Mark Walsh: He's got pretty late stage Parkinson's now. So if anyone wants to train with him, you better jump on it. He's still just about teaching and he's a mentor, you know, I call him pops and I hosted him in the UK at least 10 times, you know, he's actually from Ukrainian heritage. So, you know, when I did the Ukraine project, there was this like beautiful full circle and Yeah. [00:37:36] Mark Walsh: Yeah. He's been an elder and a very positive figure in my life. I think he's, cause he's in Columbus, Ohio. He's doesn't have as much exposure as many of the big people. He's also terrible at marketing. Unfortunately today, you know, a lot of the people who are better known just have the best marketing. [00:37:49] Mark Walsh: That's right. And I, you know, interview, I've interviewed 500 people for the podcast and I'd say half of them were good and half of them were just good salesmen. So, you know, that's a big, be careful of a good bullshit and me included, you know, and you'll, you'll, as you do more of the podcast, you'll, you'll see this, so you'll have people on who would just talk a good talk. [00:38:06] Mark Walsh: And then you'll have people like Paul who have lived it inside out. And you know, that's unfortunately part of the consumer economy. And yeah, I, you know, I spend more, more time than I would like kind of marketing and doing Instagram and things like that, but it's definitely got the word [00:38:20] Charna Cassell: out. Well, and it's so important. [00:38:23] Charna Cassell: And, and I, the, the. Democratization of information and tools and especially embodiment tools. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful for that. And it's something that I also care deeply about. And so, you know, however, it has to be done. You know, and, and the tool now is social media. So, [00:38:45] Mark Walsh: yeah, it's a shame it's sending this all insane and censoring us. [00:38:49] Mark Walsh: I mean, you know, having Silicon Valley in charge of our information dating life and possibly elections, I think is a horrible idea. I think we recognize Google as the world's most powerful unelected body. You know, I think they're a better spy system than East Germany ever had. And I think we're being sent insane for profit, and Jack Hughes, you know, to use the French, like we, we need to stop thinking we're accidentally becoming insane. [00:39:14] Mark Walsh: They are making us insane for profit, these companies. I'm tired of being censored on fucking Facebook when I say something that doesn't align with them politically, it just being shadow banned to hell. And I'm tired of speaking to young people who are absolute nervous wrecks from the addictive and social pressures of these systems. [00:39:31] Mark Walsh: I think we'll look at it in 20 years, like we, you know, looked at smoking now, you know, kind of, you know, the common warning labels, I hope. So, we'll see where that goes, but it may drive us all insane, you know, like over 50 percent of young American liberal women are now on, are now mentally ill. [00:39:49] Mark Walsh: over half are mentally ill. And like, that's an endemic. Like, that's no, I never thought, I mean, I come from a family of crazy people, but that was, you know, unusual then. So the fact that it's now usual is, is not accidental. And there are people who are responsible for that, as well as, you know, bigger factors beyond anyone's control. [00:40:10] Charna Cassell: And so how do you make peace with that? You know, given that you are such a presence, was using social media as a tool. So it's like a, it's, it's for good and evil, right? It's both and, and so [00:40:22] Mark Walsh: yeah, it's more for evil. So I don't make peace with it. I'm definitely always debating quitting these platforms 'cause I feel like I'm putting gold into the hands of demons. [00:40:33] Mark Walsh: I, I would say that there, there is an element of how you use it. So for example, and this is, you know, in our marketing more generally, I look at most for a Buddhist lens. Like, are we creating fear? Are we creating greed, you know, or are we actually boosting some positive mind states? You know, I know a lot of people like our newsletter cause it's not, yes, we sell stuff, but we're not being like, buy this now or your kids will get cancer. [00:40:56] Mark Walsh: You know, that when it's a lot of humor, it's a little authenticity. I think there's a Tantra in business. Which is, you're constantly pushed towards fear and greed. You know, the three poisons, ignorance as well, and anyone who says that, anyone who thinks they're not corruptible is, is either a saint or a liar. [00:41:20] Mark Walsh: And I've noticed that, you know, I had a big success three years ago, and then everything kind of scaled up. It was sort of overnight success ten years in the making. And there's definitely a temptation to start leaning into less and less. Yeah. And also there's like other platforms that you just go, you know what, this is Chinese spyware. [00:41:36] Mark Walsh: I'm just not going to be on it. You know, I think there are lines we can all make it. You don't have to do social media, right? Like it's become part of our company. And I'm questioning that for sure. [00:41:47] Charna Cassell: Yeah. I'm, I'm curious. I'll be curious to see how it plays out for you and what you decide around this. [00:41:55] Mark Walsh: Yeah, yeah, there's decisions we've already made strategically. You know, I think if you live in the real world, you kind of lean slowly away from things, but it's certainly a factor for me. I've kind of just in the last few months become increasingly aware of the harm that's done and then go, do I want to be a part of this ethically? [00:42:12] Mark Walsh: Like, that's a good question. So fair challenge. [00:42:14] Charna Cassell: Yeah. So as we're coming to a close, I'm curious if there's a brief exercise, a practice. That you would like to guide our listeners through. [00:42:26] Mark Walsh: What's the practice? Okay, everyone reach behind them and take the stick out of your ass and just throw that as far away as you possibly can. [00:42:34] Mark Walsh: There's the first practice. I mean, we could do a classic centering, right? Like that's, you know, I find when I'm teaching coaches or aid workers or anyone like centering goes a long way. So, let's do an ABC. So easy one to remember. So aware, balance, core relaxation. So become aware of your body. And if that feels stressful you can also become aware of the sounds all around you. [00:43:00] Mark Walsh: Balance your posture, so you're a little more stable in your posture. So balancing your awareness so it's as symmetrical as possible. [00:43:14] Mark Walsh: Or relaxation, relax your eyes so you have peripheral vision, the mouth, the belly, the pelvic floor. And if you want to connect to someone who makes you smile or something meaningful to you, just bring them to mind. [00:43:31] Mark Walsh: One minute centering. I begin many of my coaching sessions. How's that feel? You've seemed very active about it over the years. [00:43:41] Charna Cassell: I'm, I, you know, I'm, I'm very poor. I'm porous for better and for worse, right? So I can feel other people deeply and I can also change my states quite rapidly through a thought, right? [00:43:57] Mark Walsh: Yeah. [00:43:57] Charna Cassell: Right. But also through the person's thought, like I'm definitely impacted by the world. So yeah, a one, you know, I do one minute meditations and I've tried to do them like one minute you know, every hour as, as, as much as I can to be with my thoughts, to be with my states, to, to become more conscious of subconscious material. [00:44:19] Charna Cassell: Cool. That's running in the background, right? [00:44:22] Mark Walsh: Nice. I mean, the ABCs kind of design has different things that work for different people because some people don't work well with posture or visualization or breath. So, you know, it's kind of designed to be pretty, it can upregulate if you're downregulate, if you're down, it can downregulate if you're up. [00:44:37] Mark Walsh: And the other one obviously is your own embodiment, right? Like, you know, I took just two seconds before I did that just to calm down a little bit. Cause it was quite, you know, a little bit positively activated by doing an interview. I mean, we have an exercise where train coaches, where they have to just say bananas to each other in really calming ways. [00:44:54] Mark Walsh: So that's sort of like bananas, bananas, bananas, and then they have to upregulate, bananas, bananas, bananas. You know, they have to kind of use the voice in the embodiment because that matters even more than the actual technique, right? Like the technique's like 10%. So, you know, I trained embodiment coaches. [00:45:10] Mark Walsh: Most of the training is their embodiment, and then the last third is techniques. [00:45:15] Charna Cassell: Well, and what you're, what you're touching on there, it's, I, I do um, a nervous system regulation kind of body work that I like to teach couples to do with each other. And it's just really, it's, it's calming and addressing pre verbal trauma or pre verbal states. [00:45:32] Charna Cassell: And and the first thing that I do is have the partner who is about to touch the, you know, their, their partner, who's, who's laying on their side, like a little spoon to become a vessel of love, basically. To get grounded, to pick the place that makes them the most relaxed. Like for me, it's a body of water or a forest. [00:45:51] Charna Cassell: So it's like getting really calm inside themselves before they, they touch. before they make contact to get clear, right, in their thoughts. [00:46:00] Mark Walsh: Therapy. Spooning therapy. It sounds wonderful. The Bay Area again. I'm going to be in New York and Austin this year, but not the Bay Area. But for spooning therapy, I might get on a plane. [00:46:12] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. Some, well, the, the, the one person is, is the spoon and the other person's, you know, standing, sitting upright. But yes, if you come, I will, I will, my, some friends or some clients call it the, the hold. Cuddle therapy, all the things, right? So if you come, I will show you, Mark. [00:46:30] Mark Walsh: All right, that's a promise. [00:46:32] Mark Walsh: That's a promise. Yeah. [00:46:36] Charna Cassell: So one last question. What is embodied freedom to you? [00:46:42] Mark Walsh: Choice? The choice not to be the bitch of your habits. So, I was kind of joking with students over there, I said, don't be a habitch, you know, like we don't really want [00:46:55] Charna Cassell: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I like that. [00:46:57] Charna Cassell: Like [00:46:58] Mark Walsh: there's no freedom if you're just letting your, you know, your habits push you around, and you're not actually choosing how to behave according to the situation and your values. [00:47:07] Mark Walsh: So, for me, embodied freedom is just being centered enough to go, Hey, do I want to do, like, you know, I have a part of me that's Irish, right? Like, I have a part of me that just wants to, like, run across green hills and kill English people. And, like, if, you know, if I let that part run the show all the time, it's, my life's gonna get worse, and I'm gonna do unethical things, right? [00:47:25] Mark Walsh: So I, I've got a choice. Do I want to be in that? If I have enough awareness, I can have enough choice. So it's awareness and choice. Mm-Hmm. , simple awareness and choice. That if you don't have awareness, you don't have choice. So yeah, that's what embodied freedom is, I guess is to me, just off the off, off the cuff, there's something more that there's something about, 'cause that's an individualistic answer and it's a standard one for me, but there's something like. [00:47:49] Mark Walsh: I want to live in a world where we all have kind of resources to make choices because you're not in a context free environment, right? Like someone who's really poor is not making, you know, in Sudan is not in the same context we're in to make choices here. Yeah, so for me, there's gotta be a bigger piece there. [00:48:12] Mark Walsh: Gotta be a bigger piece. And I would like people to talk more about economies and class, again, rather than the obsessions, which I think are just a smokescreen that everyone's obsessed with. [00:48:24] Charna Cassell: Thank you. Is there anything else you want to share before we complete? [00:48:32] Mark Walsh: No, I think we're nearly there. Just kind of feeling into the rhythm of the session. [00:48:36] Mark Walsh: I think we're, we're pretty much towards the end. Shall I tell people where to find me online or? [00:48:42] Charna Cassell: Yes, that's what I was about to ask. Like, how can people find you? How can they reach you? [00:48:47] Mark Walsh: Tinder, Grindr. No, they can find me through all the normal channels. So if you put embodiment into the internet, I will come up. [00:48:55] Mark Walsh: Our main site is called embodiment unlimited, and there's loads of resources there of coaches, including a free copy of my book embodiment which is sold thousands of copies, but we've got a free PDF there, which people seem to really like that's embodimentunlimited. com. I am on Instagram. If you just put in Mark Walsh, W A L S H YouTube. [00:49:13] Mark Walsh: Podcast. I don't know. Spray painted onto the moon. I get around a little bit, but they're the main, main areas. [00:49:21] Charna Cassell: And of course, all that information will be in my show notes. So [00:49:26] Mark Walsh: Charna. Pleasure. Super generous. Nice to, nice to see you again. [00:49:29] Charna Cassell: Good to see you. [00:49:31] Charna Cassell: Thank you for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like, rate, review, and share it with your friends. I really appreciate that. If you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at laidopenpodcast. That's L A I D O P E N P O D C A S T. As well as If you go to charnacacell. [00:49:56] Charna Cassell: com and join my newsletter, you'll get information about upcoming courses. You'll get discounts as well as resources that I share in my newsletter and at passionatelife. org, you can get more information about my private practice and the kind of work that I do. this has been Laid Open Podcast with your host Charna Cassell. Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources that empower you to heal. Thank you so much for listening.