Ep. 115 The Alchemy of Collapse and Using It as a Gateway to Awakening with Taylor Perkins

Show Notes The Alchemy of Collapse and Using It as a Gateway to Awakening with Taylor Perkins Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Welcome back to LaidOPEN Podcast. This is your host, Charna Cassell. This episode is for you if you're interested in spirituality. If you're were raised in a high control religious environment and have sought out a different path and a different way, if you are trying to find ways to make sense of this human experience and this reality. So today's guest is Taylor Perkins. And he's a content creator, obsessed with consciousness and the spiritual expansion we're living through. He self identifies as just a dude with a platform who wants you to know how perfect you are. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Taylor. Welcome, Taylor. So good to have you here. [00:01:00] Taylor Perkins: Hey, thanks for having me. Charna Cassell: Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad it all worked out. I know, despite technology, we're all here. Taylor Perkins: We're here, we made it. Yeah. Charna Cassell: I follow you on Instagram and appreciate the mini deep dives that you do in, into, such a variety of topics. Mm-hmm. And I'm [00:02:00] curious for you, how did you end up on a spiritual and seeking path? And I know that's a really big question. Taylor Perkins: This is actually something I've been meditating on a lot lately and. I would say where my understanding is now, I realize that we, we live in duality and so every truth, every energy has its own paradoxical opposite energy that both exist, both are truth, right? And it's like when you hold paradox, it creates this natural balance state. And I've been thinking a lot about paradox and there's a reason why I'm diving into this. And it's because, you know, it's really interesting because it's, it's generally you know, if you think something of yourself that the equal and opposite is true. So for example, people who think of themselves as enlightened. That they know everything. The energy that they actually embody is being very closed off. Right. Because nothing new [00:03:00] can come in because they already know everything. They're already right. And so by thinking you're enlightened, the paradoxical truth is you're not. And for those that embody the energy of everything is my teacher, there's so much to learn. You actually have an energetic openness mm-hmm. That, that is the right conditions for new things to come in for this, you know, expansive information. And so, I was born into like a very, very strict Mormon Christian household. Have always been kind of like, the golden boy did whatever people told me to do was successful in it. And I believed it, right? I had the truth and I was like, this is the truth. We're God's chosen people, we're gonna give it to the Earth. And it was like a very closed off energy. and all of that was good and great until, I had a bunch of success in my life. everything I touch, you know, I used to joke. It was just like, I, I just embodied this energy of like, everything just works out for my highest good. You know, enter a contest and I'm like, I'm [00:04:00] gonna win and I would win it, and it all, that was good and great until my mid twenties, you know, had made millions of dollars in the stock market. My background is finance and economics. I went down the road, what most people do, where it's money's happiness, right? So let's go chase the money. I decided to build a company because, I've always had this heart of wanting to like, help people and change the world. And so I thought, I've made a ton of money in the stock market. If I build this company that teaches anybody with a cell phone the principles of investing, they don't need to go to college. They don't need to take on all this debt, right? We can teach the next generation how to be so smart. And so that's what drove me forward. Amazing things happened until they didn't. The company didn't work. it collapsed. There was like a few things that happened, you know, like some betrayals where it was like, oh my gosh, like everything was outta my control. And I lost everything. And so for me, it just, it cracked me completely open where I thought I had failed God. I thought I had failed [00:05:00] Jesus, I failed my wife, my kids, all these different things. And it truly took me to the point where I was just like, I wanted to unsubscribe from life. Like, it was just too much to handle. And I was just like, I can't do this anymore. And, I, I remember I had done some research about psychedelics and, you know, I knew that they could help with depression. Again, I was very, very Mormon. So I was afraid that that was a tool of Satan, right? Where I'm like, this is a tool of the devil. But it, you know, it got to the point where I talked to, to my now ex-wife and I was just like, Hey, I really want to do this. And she's like, you need to. She's like, I can tell the place that you're in. And so I went into, you know, an ayahuasca ceremony, just being like, please help me with my depression. And basically, it was just an experience where I experienced, you know, the divine in infinite forms and it was like, you think you know everything. And then it was like, boom, here's everything you don't know. And it just completely [00:06:00] cracked me open where I was just like, oh my gosh. And then that experience was like, it was like, not only that, but it's like you were never here to, you were never sent to be in finance. You were never sent to do this. And it was just like, here's who you actually are and these are the things that I kind of talk about in my content. You know, just, just it, it was like all of the masks just came off and I was able to truly tap into what has always been there, recognized it. Now I look back on it and I'm like, wow. You know, I recognized this throughout time, but it was just, you know, putting different little labels on it. And so that was about five years ago, and it's been a little bit of a process, kind of, opening up the throat chakra, learning to express myself authentically. Charna Cassell: So psychedelics one tool to unlearn indoctrination. Taylor Perkins: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: Right. To to open to what what we don't know. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: Go beyond what we, what we think we know. What are some other key tools that you have discovered that have [00:07:00] helped you uncover. A different truth. Taylor Perkins: Oh my gosh. There, there are so many. And I, and I do wanna put a warning out there, like psychedelics, like everything in this plane that we live in, not all good, not all bad. Like, there are a lot of energies out there, and I have also seen a lot of people who have turned to psychedelics that have completely thrown them into psychosis. They've lost, you know, um, touch with reality. and again, it's not the psychedelics that are doing it. Right. It's, it's, it's us. And so if you fill the call, amazing tool. But also totally fine if you don't. Charna Cassell: I wanna say something to that. 'cause you know, there's a, and I have a, I'm a, I'm a licensed psychotherapist. There are a number of people in my community close to me that are medicine guides, and I have, yeah. I think the warning is really important and it's, it's like, who, who are the people that are, that are guiding you? What is their actual training? Totally. What are [00:08:00] your integration tools? Because a lot of what you are pointing to, it's like, okay, are you taking big amounts of something and then going to the wild? And then how do you make sense? Because if your whole identity comes apart and everything, you know, and yourself to be, is infested in this, like this very structured box that you've been raised in and then it comes, becomes dismantled. How, how do you walk that path? Taylor Perkins: Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things, I think it is such an amazing tool. There's a a cool podcast, I don't know if you've ever listened to it, called The Emerald Podcast. Charna Cassell: Oh, yes. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Okay. Emerald Podcast. Amazing. Yeah. And I think one of the cool things that he touched on somewhat recently is about guardians and protectors. Yeah. And he spoke to a lot of shamans. And one of the things that they were saying is like, people in the west are crazy. They're like to just take a psychedelic, crack yourself open. And they're like, you don't have someone there who is trained to work with these energies. They're like, you are opening [00:09:00] yourself up. Yeah. To a whole world of things that you are not ready to hold on your own. And that was something that I think really stuck closely is, you know, there was a milder who talked about the different paths to truth. He said, you know, it doesn't matter what the path is as long as it's rooted in truth. And I would, you know, you know, as long as its roots are deep in that earth, in truth, and it can guide you. And I would say the same thing goes with, psychedelics is they're an amazing tool. Just make sure it's. Being, with someone, something, a group that is rooted in truth, that is rooted in wisdom, that is not just gonna leave you alone. Because like I said, I have seen some people who are, who are just amazing, incredible people, and it really just cracked them open. Where it, it has taken them into a completely different plane of, you know, consciousness. Charna Cassell: The thing that's also really tricky is our systems all need really different things, right? And so one person [00:10:00] who's really porous or sensitive or sensitized may need. No medicine, they're already experiencing the world without, without it in the way that somebody who has a really dense, numb, or protected system needs so much more to crack them open. And so if, if someone is not, you know, someone can have a lot of experience and maybe training in one way, but that's not the right training for this person's system. Taylor Perkins: Exactly. Charna Cassell: And what is your system picking up and what's the level of sensitivity in this particular system? And if you can't evaluate that and you're just like going like, oh, you heard about this through a friend, and then you join a group of people, or you're even working one-on-one with somebody who doesn't have the right tools for you, and assessing that is such a tricky process. Taylor Perkins: I think that's, the key that I would say here to people is whether you are. It's tough. I don't want to use the language. cause I was gonna say, you know, like wherever you are on your spiritual journey, because you know, our, the, the way that we speak and the way that we [00:11:00] hold things, hold so much power. So for example, right, if you put these ascended masters, for example, pedestals, you're subconsciously creating distance between you and them. Yeah. Because you view yourself as lesser, therefore you create that, right? And, you know, I think sometimes people, we talk about the spiritual journey. People say there's so many paths up the mountain, but then the next step, right, is realizing there is no mountain. Like there, there is no, like, you are on your path, right? Mm-hmm. And so what I want to say is wherever anybody is on their individual journey and expansion, um, your intuition. Is always tapped in. Now, we have been taught throughout our lives to silence that voice. Mm-hmm. To not listen to it, to second guess. Right. But this is like the feeling that comes in before the emotion, the analytical thoughts. And so, anybody out there, if you feel called to something and as you're doing your research and exploring, the number one guide is inside of you and it [00:12:00] will lead you. Charna Cassell: What comes to mind is a couple things I was thinking about parents, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's like your kid having a total meltdown in public, like what gets triggered in your system. Taylor Perkins: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And what did you learn about parenting? How were you raised? Did you get to be self-expressed? Like all the things? Yeah. So basically anything you'd dissociate from. Yeah. That becomes that unconscious material. That's a trigger that will get, and you'll think if, depending on your state of mind, you might actually, not understand developmentally that a two year, it's appropriate for a two, 2-year-old to be melting down in a particular way. And you might actually, take a stance that's very punitive if that's what you were raised with, and feel like why are you doing this to me? I mean, that's. That is something that is, it's really painful for everybody involved. So a, a situation like that, that person needs to learn nervous system regulation and practices of like, how do [00:13:00] they, so there needs to be the learning over here in order to be able to, in the, in the practice, daily practice so that in that moment they get to apply what they're learning. But you can't expect someone to be able to respond or not react in a triggering situation if they're not in the practices already. Taylor Perkins: There's so much to learn in situations like that. And you know, what I would tell people is it's like, okay, if you, you have your child that's kind of, you know, having a meltdown, right? And it's gonna trigger some things, it's gonna bring some things, some things up, but then also like, witness your child. As they move through. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Taylor Perkins: And then see how it's like they can generally leave those meltdowns and then they're just back as if nothing happened. And it's like, you know, how many of us adults also need to realize where it's like, okay, the child needs to learn like a, a safe place, an appropriate time, you know, how, how to express these emotions without, you know, throwing a, a tantrum [00:14:00] in the middle of a grocery store. But the adult also needs to learn is see how they do not hold onto these emotions. Mm-hmm. See how when they're feeling them, they express it, they let that move. You know, the I think nature teaches this beautifully where it's like water that's is generally healthy. Mm-hmm. Water that stays pooled and stagnant. It gets disease ridden. You get mosquitoes, it's not healthy. Right? Mm-hmm. And for us, we've been taught that good mental health is like suppressing everything. And it's like, this is where like disease comes from. This is where a lot of issues, again, nothing hidden will not become manifest. It's like that energy. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Taylor Perkins: Is gonna continually manifest outside of you. And so it's like, wow, the child needs to learn, but also we need to learn. Right. Where it's like, see how they express it. Some adults have like, especially with, with what's happening in the world right now, you know, my partner, oh my gosh, she does these rage rituals where she will sit down, she'll put music on, and she will literally throw a tan tantrum. Like she will hit her hands and [00:15:00] she will scream and just have that freak out. And then the energy leaves. Mm-hmm. She's back to a balanced state and it's like, cool, now let's move on. Right. I think that's really cool. I also think witnessing children, do you have children? Charna Cassell: I don't. Taylor Perkins: What is cool for me is seeing myself in my children. Mm-hmm. Right? And so the other day I was playing with my son and, we were at a trampoline park and we were throwing the ball and he wasn't looking and I threw it and it hit him on the head. And it's like a softball. Yeah. But he started to cry and I'm like, I'm so sorry buddy. And he was like, you did that on purpose. And I was like, I was like, Brooks, I would never do anything like that on purpose. And he was like, you were trying to hurt me. Why would you try to hurt me dad? And I was like, I would never try to hurt you buddy. You know? And so I like saw that and I'm like, that is so strange that he would immediately go to like, you're trying to hurt me, trying me fast forward, you know, a week down the road me and my partner you know, something happens where there was like a miscommunication and she does something. And I was [00:16:00] like, I can't believe you would do that. I'm like, why would you hurt me? I'm like, you were trying to hurt me. And she was like, no, I was not trying to hurt you. And immediately when I said those words, yeah, I was like, whoa, whoa. Brooks is a reflection of me. This is my inner child that's coming out where something happens. Then I was like, you did this on purpose, and it was the on purpose that hurts the most. It wasn't even the event. And so it's cool because I, you know, I'll see these things come out in my children and I'm like, wow, that's me. You know, like that is me. And so it's like, all right. Now, how do I provide a space for them? How would I have provided a space for myself? Like how do I provide a space for them where, you know, I don't suppress their feelings, I don't, you know, try to put them into a box, but also we can take what they're feeling. I, you know, and it was cool 'cause I had, I had a conversation with my son after that and I was just like, Hey. Remember when this happened, and it's like, that happens to dad too. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, and it's like, it's really hard going through that. And, and it was cool. It [00:17:00] was this teaching moment where we both understood each other, where it was like, you know, these things aren't happening on purpose, but like, what can we do when we feel these things? Charna Cassell: I mean, I think what you're, what you're pointing to is so important. It's a general piece of like, how do you not personalize? I mean, as humans we habitually personalize things. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: And we, in kids, they try to make sense of things or like, it's black or it's white. It's like, why would this happen? It must be my fault. You know, all that. And thinking about. How that relates to my work with my clients. Taylor Perkins: Right? Yeah. Charna Cassell: You know, because there are times where clients might perceive something and it's like, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna invalidate their experience. But it's like, wow, if you think that I, that my intention was this, that is so painful and I'm so sorry that you're, that, that that's, what's, what's happening? And, and how is it to believe that? So I process that through with somebody, right. Or, partnership. I mean, you don't need kids to have your, your absolutely. Partners are the best people to [00:18:00] practice with. Taylor Perkins: And everything is gonna be a mirror and a reflection to anyone listening to this. There is no escaping the mirrors and the reflection like it is the, I always say it's the code behind, you know, reality. There was one time I was meditating, oh, I don't have a piece of paper, but I was, you know, I was just like, I, I intellectually understood, you know, people would say. Reality is a mirror, it's a reflection. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Taylor Perkins: You know, and I had a lot of thoughts because I'm like, well, how can it be a reflection? There's a lot of terrible things that happen to like good people. Like why is, what is that a reflection of? What is it showing? And you know, really it, it is so far, it is so complex because it is mirrors on mirrors on mirrors. On mirrors. On mirrors. Yeah. You know, we're all co-creators within this dream. But what I will say with the, the mirror analogy is you know, people say the universe created itself to experience itself. And when I was meditating on the mirror, I was just like, what is the purpose of reality? And the words that kept coming to me were, reveal me to [00:19:00] me. It's just like, what am I, show me where do I collapse? Where do I put my needs over someone else's? Right? A video that I made, when, when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, right? And I was never a fan because I thought he was incredibly divisive. And I had made content in the past where I'm like, I don't respect people that use division to build platforms, you know? And I'm like, that's not the way to do this. And then when he died, right, there was this kind of like this initial where it was just like he had it coming. And I'm like, whoa, that is so interesting. I was like, well, if I feel like karma is due to him for actions that are done, it's like I also embody that energy for me where if there's things that I feel I'm doing that are bad or wrong, I feel like I deserve to be punished. Right? Yeah. And so I noticed like some of that where I'm like, okay, let me sit with this. Let me release it. What awareness will take you to is to the point where you're going to realize that you are the one that gives meaning, [00:20:00] right? And so sometimes events will happen to you, but you get to decide the meaning behind that event, right? And so if we wanna decide that, you know, something happening to me, right? In the past, I would decide I'm a victim. Yeah. This is unfair. You know, like, this happened to me, I can't overcome this. You know? I've been very open in my publishings and my content about being hypersexualized and then being in a high control religion, right? It was like p*rnography m*sturbation these different things. But then there was so much self-hate and just guilt around it, and shame, which just perpetuates this loop and creates this, spiral downwards. And you know what really, really shifted me? I had done everything. I had done 12 step programs. I had done working with mentors. I have done, you know, therapy and medicines, but for some reason I would still be pulled down. I would go to like a mentor or something like that and then I would tell them, it's like, you know, I'm really still [00:21:00] struggling with like, p*rnography And I'm like, I'm like, it's just like anytime I get stressed it's like, let me do this. Let me turn off my brain. And all of them, they'd be like, that's so surprising. They're like, that's so shocking that you would struggle with that. They're like, you seem like someone who would be past that. Right. And it would further create this, like, what's wrong with me? Like mm-hmm. What's happening? What allowed me to expand past it was realizing that I get to define what the meaning is, right? The interesting thing was the moment that I reframed that Right. That that pull was a lot less. And so, um, paired with this mirror analogy and reflection analogy, I would also say that it's important to remember that while things are reflecting you back to you, you are the one that gives it meaning. Charna Cassell: yeah. Taylor Perkins: Right. It's that again, it's the paradox. It's not just happening to you. You get to decide what it all means. And so for people who have experienced heavy traumas, for people who have gone through [00:22:00] very dark things, I can't tell you why it happened. I can't give you any reason that will give you solace, you know, you know, giving an excuse to be like, now I can finally let it go. But what I can tell you is you get to decide what the meaning is. You get to decide what the, the lesson or the call into more is and pick the highest, most expansive meaning, because it's true. Yeah. Whatever it may be. Just pull that power back into you. Charna Cassell: So I, I worked at Good Vibrations. Do you know what good vibrations is? Taylor Perkins: No, actually, no. Charna Cassell: It's a worker owned sex toy store. And so I was cool. I was a sex educator in my twenties. And so in that environment and, you know, I had a history of sexual trauma and so I had a history of freezing. Taylor Perkins: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And so in that environment, you're educating people about. Their sexuality about sex toys, about pleasure. Yeah. They immediately feel a sense of intimacy with you. And some people are coming in and genuinely attempting to be [00:23:00] wankers and be inappropriate and push boundaries and do inappropriate things. But people would physically touch me or really like do grotesque things and initially my system would freeze. Taylor Perkins: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And, and so, you know, in terms of this piece of like being victimized, what was my habit was, was to make, initially make excuses like, well, maybe they didn't mean to. Totally their hand would move in that way. Or maybe they didn't need to do that with their mouth. Or maybe, you know, so minimizing, right. First there was like a minimizing of my experience. And then over time, because I was simultaneously studying somatics and doing martial arts space practices to melt that freeze response and be able to do something else. So it's like em embodied boundaries was what I was practicing outside of work. Yes. But, but the mundane tasks of, you know, my job became the practice ground for Yes. Embodying and integrating what I was. What I was [00:24:00] learning. Taylor Perkins: Exactly. Charna Cassell: And so I went from freezing when someone would go to touch me then to saying, can you take a step back as they were like, so up in my grill. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: And then eventually as an arm would go around to like, you know, be placed around my hip or something, I would just keep talking about cock rings and step out of the way. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: And gracefully navigate this embodied boundary. 'cause I had the choice. It was already practiced in my system. Right? Taylor Perkins: Yes. Charna Cassell: So what you're talking about, it's like initially there could be a first, there's like a minimizing of my experience, but then there's like an anger and a being, feeling victimized. Like they're intentionally doing some kind of thing. Some people are genuinely, are genuinely doing those things. Absolutely. And they're trying, trying to take your power away and they're asserting their desire over. Yep. You know what you would ever want. They're not considering anyone but themselves. That's, there's a lot of that in the world. Right. So I'm thinking of you also said something [00:25:00] about, so you, you, you specifically, and I appreciate this, you used the word expansion. Ascension, right? Yes. So expansion, this expansion and contraction is very much as a somatic therapist is an important piece, right? Our hearts contract, they expand our breath. Yeah. Exhales it. We inhale. So this is always happening. Taylor Perkins: Which is what a vibration is as well, right? Is an expansion contraction. Like that is literally a vibration. Charna Cassell: And I was in a room full of it. And, and so how we, when we're in a contraction, when we're in that place, that is a place of fear. That's a place of habit, that's a place of old stories and beliefs that have run us since we were children. I think even since we're like in utero, I believe before we have language, we have... Taylor Perkins: A thousand percent. Charna Cassell: Decided Taylor Perkins: A thousand percent . Charna Cassell: Who we need to be to [00:26:00] be loved, right? So, so we're in this place, and then from that expanded place. We can let go of story, we can have, a higher perspective of everything that's occurring. Yeah. So that we're not run by the story and by the human experience. And that's where like kind of a spiritual perspective lives. But there's a lot of that in between, like going from this contracted place, if you have trauma, you're moving through the world in that state. Until I did somatic work. Like I was terrified of men. I was terrified of the world. I would like to hear from you how, how you were introduced to concepts of embodiment. Mm-hmm. Because, because, high control religious environments really train you out of trusting your body and embracing. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: That wisdom, right? Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: And, and that I, from where I sit embodiment is essential for self-compassion, compassion of others [00:27:00] and uncovering who we are. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: Right? Taylor Perkins: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. First I just wanna say that it's so cool, that practical example that you gave. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Taylor Perkins: Because I think it just ties so well into what we were saying earlier where it's like, you know, you have these practices, you do these things. But then it's like your life becomes that, that that meditation and it's like your experience in that story. Yeah. It was showing you Right. Where it's like, here's where you collapse for someone else's need. Yes. Or you bypass for someone else and it's not reflecting it to you because you're doing something wrong. It's just simply showing you and giving you an opportunity to be like, okay, let me expand past this. Let me hold that boundary. Right. So, cool. Charna Cassell: The learning then versus the learning now it's been 25 years. And so the learning then I was so excited because even in a, in a, few years later in a sexual assaulty situation, the fact that I, I didn't feel scared after a, a, a situation occurred because I was like so excited that I didn't embody boundaries and I got that fucker [00:28:00] outta my house. So Amazing. It, you know what I mean? It's like, it's Yeah. But the, but the, but the embodied ability is such an important piece. Enough practice to be able to do it. But I, at that time, I, I was excited for just having embodied boundaries. Now I can see it as like, oh, that's part, part of my dharma was learning that, not that I want sexual abuse to happen to anybody. Yeah. But, but being able to teach these embodied tools to other people Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: Is so essential and something I care so deeply about. Taylor Perkins: It's such a tough topic to dive into. 'cause you really, really have to be aware of like, who's listening and like, what's the frame of mind. Because you know, the big thing that I'm really trying to teach, and the reason why I use language so carefully, like, for example, like expansion, like you were saying, I don't like to use higher or lower because it creates hierarchy and people assume high, good, low, [00:29:00] bad. Mm-hmm. And it's like, it's like you duality exists, light and shadow exists for a reason. You can't have one without the other. It's like we're here like the, you know, from the one came, the two. Right? The solution of duality. One, the one is not up there and the two is here. It's like this is the one. Mm-hmm. Like this is the one, like what we perceive as this world is dictated by our perceptions, but it's like it's not outside of us. Yeah. It's not further away. And so I love the word expansion because we're here to expand, to hold all of it without collapse. Right? Yeah. To to be in these situations without collapsing. Charna Cassell: And having your, how you physically show up, how you verbally show up. And energetically show up, be congruent with your values. Taylor Perkins: it's not, you mask one way when you speak, you think away, and then you act a different way. It's the way that you speak is the way that you think is the way that you feel is the way that you express, right? Because it's you. And the more that you expanded to authenticity, the more all of them come into that, that [00:30:00] single piece where you're like, oh, this is just me. You know? For me, this might be s annoying for some people, but also I think hopefully exciting for some people to hear. The, the journey really was just setting an intention and understanding that any intention that is held. Will manifest now. You don't control the time, you don't get to dictate when and how, but it's going to happen. And the way that I like describe this for people because you know, you have to like bypass the logical mind sometimes. 'cause you're like, how what? In, in Daoism they often describe a river with a current and they're like, go with the current. The way that I understand this is, you know, people talk about their highest timeline wanting to shift onto their highest timeline, embody their highest timeline anchor in everybody's right. It's like we all are on different timelines and if we all anchor in our highest timeline, beautiful things are gonna happen in this plane. Right? If you are, if you're the full expression that you are, it is a self sorting puzzle. It is gonna be so amazing, [00:31:00] so beautiful. But the way I describe this is if your desire is your highest timeline. You are actually consciously connected to that river and it is going to divert and create a perfect path of ups and downs, lefts and rights that are gonna give you the experiences that you need to truly embody and walk with what you're already consciously wanting. So for me you know, it's like, okay, I know that there's a lot of gnosis that I brought with me. I know that one of my abilities is to, if I can sit down, create stillness, these things are not mine. Like I did not come up with them. I have not researched them like it comes through me and then I try to translate them with as little of my programming as possible to keep the message, you know, clear and true. So Reality took me down the path of showing me every place where I wouldn't do that [00:32:00] right? Because I needed to see, oh, here's where I don't do it. Here's where I expand past it. Through that and holding that intention and understanding that everything is unfolding perfectly, this is not something where more effort is gonna make it happen faster to, to people listening to this. Sometimes we are very conditioned to think if I just meditate more, if I just do more breath work, if I just spend a little bit more time manifesting, if I do more, more, more, it's gonna happen faster. It's not, you are exactly where you're supposed to be. Like you are exactly where you're supposed to be. So the awareness is why am I here? What is this showing me? Where is it calling me into more expansion? You know, in my, my document where I talk about you know, I think sometimes people think like Christ consciousness, Buddha hood, uh, unity consciousness, ascended master consciousness. There's so many different words. We, we think of it as something that we need to, like ascend to, we need to grow to, you need to work towards. [00:33:00] And it's like, no, it's something you embody. And so how do you know if you're embodying it? Well, look for the areas where you're not. If you want to embody Christ consciousness, which is the expression of love to everything in all things at all time while holding a boundary, right? Like love is not like, Hey, I don't want to hurt you. Love sometimes is telling, if someone is being an asshole, it is saying like, I love you. I care about you. You're an asshole. Yeah. Like it, the way that you're acting like that is love is to give them an authentic mirror and say, here's what you're doing and here's how I perceive it. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. I, I was just gonna say that the, the thing that's so important about this notion, to me at least of a, it's like ascension as the, as the best thing. The reality is, it's, it's, we're in, we ideally wanna be in dynamic balance. And if you have a system, like my system is more wide open this way, my path, my whole life is gonna be how do I ground down? How do I connect down? Because this, I feel like this timeline for me has been, You know, [00:34:00] many, many timelines I've spent dissociated because of traumatic events or whatever. And this, this life is about embodiment. This life is about having a physical experience this time around. And that also means living through a lot of physical ailment and physical pain, which calls me back into the body. Totally. And I think a lot of people live that and it's like in and, you know, thinking about pain as a response to dissociation, but downward down, occupying yourself in a downward way. So some people need to learn how to like, get out of the mud and ascend and connect to positivity. Yeah. If they tend towards depression and other people who are shot out of their body most of the time. Need, need to learn how to come back. And so it's, there's not gonna be one way for anybody. Taylor Perkins: It's like you're, you're consciously connected. You are the river. And the current, you're also on the tube in the current, and it's taking, but it's like you're both parts. Yeah. You know, it's like we, we like to think of it [00:35:00] as an individual and it's like, no, you're actually kind of like guiding yourself. And the key is this is why it's that awareness and that presence because it's, it's perfectly dialed in for you. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Taylor Perkins: There's like a heavy energetic density, right? I think the vast majority of human beings right now are not expressing authentically. And anytime you're not expressing authentically pain, suffering, discomfort, all of these are actually signals to you to, to realign. That's all it is. Like, it's, it's serving your highest purpose. It's telling you like, Hey, this isn't where you're supposed to be. Come back into alignment, right? Alignment is your most expansive state. Perfection is not a destination. The, the universe is infinitely expanding and so are you. So there is no perfected state because there's always more to anyone listening to this. And so in the same way sometimes you know, for me there was a lot I needed to heal from. And then one of the [00:36:00] moments that was very big for me was realizing where it was like, okay, well do I keep, do I need to continue to find things to heal or do I need to heal from this? Like I need to heal and just recognize that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be, you know? And it's like, I am who I'm supposed to be. And it's just kind of like, this all served me. What's next? What am I expanding into? Where, what am I being called into a deeper, and this is why people say it's a spiral upwards. It's a spiral inwards. It's a spiral. Yeah. Downwards. It's all of it, right? Because you're gonna, you're gonna see patterns and it's just highlighting your expansion. Charna Cassell: Yeah. You revisit the same, the same pains, the same habits with totally new tools Taylor Perkins: Exactly. Charna Cassell: You bounce back more quickly inside that spiral. Taylor Perkins: And it's part of the, it's just part of the experience. That's is all it is. And so, but it's that, it's that realization that, that that awareness and presence, it pulls you into the moment. Most people wanna escape. Whether it's drugs, for me it was, you know, pornography, masturbation, these [00:37:00] compuls actions. A lot of people in spirituality wanna escape by five D consciousness. You know, or the aliens are gonna come, which they totally could. I'm not saying that's not a thing, but I'm saying in the same way that we are all projections of consciousness. This idea of beings outside of us are also an illusion and a projection of consciousness. Mm-hmm. Very real. We can experience it as real. Mm-hmm. But it's like, again, it's still outsourcing to something outside of us to come and save us. Right. People want it through drugs, people use it with psychedelics. Right. Charna Cassell: Even partnership. Right. I think that that's a really... Taylor Perkins: Totally. Charna Cassell: Totally dominant culture. Sells it through romantic comedies. You're gonna get saved by a partner. Taylor Perkins: Exactly. Yeah. Especially to, you know, it's your one true love. It's that prince charming or that princess that's gonna come in and it's gonna be perfect. And then people when it's not, they're like, well, this isn't the right place I need to escape, you know, or whatever. And again, it's like you give it the meaning. What do you, what do you want the meaning? [00:38:00] Does it serve you? Do you feel what what I have noticed just speaking to partnership, it's really interesting because as I've said, I do believe reality is a mirror and a reflection. So previous partnerships for me in relationships have all been highlights to me where I would suppress myself what also where I would use manipulations to get the love that I needed. And I mean, these weren't dark things, you know, like I, I, I don't have like a dark heart at all. I generally care about people, but it was still like, oh, you know, my we just had a fight and my wife wants to be close. Well, I'm gonna create distance because then I know that she's gonna, come and chase me like these little games. And so I was able. Through those relationships to see like, not, here's what they do to me, here's where I collapse. But like, woo, okay, what am I doing? Where do I collapse someone else? Where do I dim their light? Charna Cassell: Yeah. Taylor Perkins: And as I've gone through that, what has happened, with my partner, it's not because, you know, it's out of need. It's not something where it's like, finally I'm [00:39:00] completed. Both of us went through a healing journey, right? Where we came to the realization where it's like, oh, we're whole, we've always been whole where we can source that love that we wanted outside of us, right? Because anyone in partnership, anytime you feel loved by that partner, just so you know, it's just your programming says when this happens, you can feel this emotion that comes from you. It's you that's creating that love that you're feeling, right? No one can make you feel loved, like only you, but it gives you permission. So went down the process of self sourcing, went down the process of real, which was very, very uncomfortable of identifying and detaching from external validation. I was addicted to external validation. How many people are seeing my videos? Do people resonate with them if they resonate with them? Should I talk more like that? Right? Like creating for someone else because, you know, it's this external validation. As we've gone through that process, what's fascinating is the partnership I'm in now. Is a reflection of our wholeness. Now shadow still comes [00:40:00] up. We're still, um, sovereign individuals. But what is so interesting is there's a certain amount of intellectual intelligence, emotional intelligence, and spiritual intelligence within the relationship that the, the way that we sum it up together, Christine and I, is previous partnerships. It's almost like they want to, they want to dim you and collapse you and with each other. It's like, we'll, notice when we're dimming and we'll expand our partner. We're just like, Hey, you're, you know, it's like you're amazing. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Taylor Perkins: That's not the same for everyone. This is the video game that we're playing and this is the route that we're walking. For a lot of people, the path is going to be many partners. Yeah. And experiencing, you know, and everything. Having a time and a season and going through, you know, death and rebirth cycles and that's part of the experience they're gonna have for others. It's going to be finding that one partner and really sticking it out with them and going through the hardships of life and the ups and the downs and like all those things. For others, it's gonna be Charna Cassell: right. Taylor Perkins: No partners. Right. [00:41:00] It's just like this, this reality is so incredibly diverse. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Taylor Perkins: And you know, it's just, it's funny because like people talk about paths to truth and it's just like there's not a single system on this world that can tell you what the one path to truth is because only you carry it within your soul. You know exactly what your path is. And the cool thing that is so beautiful, and this is why there's so much division in the world, is because people want external validation. They think if this is the path for me, it has to be the same for everyone else. And if it's not the same for you, I don't like you. Yeah. And I disagree with you. And it's not because they actually dislike you, it's because they're unsure about their path and when they see you not doing it mm-hmm. It's adding to validation where it's like, well, maybe this isn't the path. Right? Charna Cassell: I just a, a side note, I was just talking to my friend yesterday about that in terms of just in terms of eating. Right. Like whether it's someone's vegan or whether it's some, I didn't do any sweeteners for [00:42:00] 15 years. Yeah. 'cause of health stuff. Yeah. And just how people need their realities validated. Taylor Perkins: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: And if you're, it's like you're not drinking, like you're, that they, there's the assumption is you're judging them or you're eating that you're judging and it's like, no, we can, we can have separate experiences. Taylor Perkins: Totally. Yeah. Well, and that's the, that is the big thing that people are being called into right now. Like, again, we are in duality. Which is the illusion of separation, right? It's, it's the two, it's push, pull, masculine, feminine, right? These forces that create this idea of being separate, but it's all the one, this unified field. It's like we're in it. Like this is, this is it. And so what's interesting with duality is a lot of, you'll see a lot of things that feel very different or actually the same. So like a utopia and a dystopia ultimately go to the same destination. It's just different paths and it's like, which one would you like? But it's kind of the same thing. Unity. [00:43:00] Unity can come through everybody being forced to think the same, to act the same, to want the same things, to do the same things, right? That is one way to achieve unity. Like unity through complete force and just yeah. Making it happen. Charna Cassell: Exactly. Taylor Perkins: The other path to unity is accepting everyone. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Taylor Perkins: And everyone's experience. Right. And again, I understand that people hear this and they're just like, well, what about, you know, the child rapist? What about these terrible people? What I would say is this, number one, it's less about them. 'cause this is about you, and your thoughts that you have. When you hear that, you know, things that come up, it's highlighting to you the energy that you have. Because again, we're all co-creators within this reality. And so, you know, for example, if we were in a room with you, Charna, and let's say, you know, it's like you smoke 10 packs a day of like cigarettes and it's just one of those things where you're just like, you're like, I enjoy it, but I want to get rid of it. Or actually I'm gonna pick something [00:44:00] way worse. You know, like mean alcoholic, where it's like really abusing the family. Mm-hmm. Where it's like you can't, you know, it's like anytime you get into that alcoholic like mood, it's like you're taking it out on people. If we are in a room with you, with your family, and there's 50 of us, 60 of us. All of us have this energy of like, she's never gonna change. This is who she is. You. You do have the power to change, but the energetic prison we are creating around you is putting so much downward pressure on you, keeping you in a box, right? You're fighting more. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Taylor Perkins: Now you are still an alcoholic, you are still doing that. But if all 20 people in that room, or however many I said are all thinking, you know what? She has the highest potential just as I do. And like this isn't the best thing. You know, like we need to sit with her and we need to talk with her. But I know that she can change. I know what her heart is. I know that she comes from the same divine source that I do. Yeah. Which means she's just expressing out of ignorance. There is so much more that [00:45:00] she can do and she can shift like this. It still comes down to you. You still get to be the one to decide which path that you take, but there's a lot less energy trying to force you in this prison. And there's a lot more amplification where you can tap into that energy and be like, you know what? I am gonna shift. Right? And we see this all the time, like when people are vocal with their support for you, it's like the motivation you feel to do it where you're like, I can do this, right? It, it is a very real principle. And so when I say that there is a path of accepting everyone as they are. Mm. And it means yes, there's a lot of horrors going on in the world right now. Yeah. But I'm not gonna contribute my energy to this idea that nobody can change even the worst of the worst. Right? Yeah. They still have a highest potential. It's up to them to express it, but they still have it. And as long as I embody that energy. The most important thing is that's what it means for you. Hmm. So if there's anything that doesn't serve you, if [00:46:00] there's anything that you want to expand from, it's like you can't, 'cause you are embodying this energy of at any point of time things can shift. And this is, this is where I say that, that your reality and your experience is gonna be a reflection of you. Charna Cassell: Hmm. Taylor Perkins: You embodying that energy, is it going to change a child molester? No, because they are sovereign. But it is going to change you into your most expansive state. And as you expand, that does send ripples throughout all creation. The more people that take this path, it will eventually change these people in the very, very lowest of the densities where they will say, you know what? I don't think this serves. This isn't who I am. This is not who I am. And I know that I can shift and I know that I can expand. Charna Cassell: It's an interesting examples specifically, right? Cycles of child sexual abuse, cycles of war and genocide, [00:47:00] cycles of like all of these things where you look at what humanity has done time and time again. You know, specifically if you're talking about pedophilia. Basically research shows that people don't, they don't change that habit. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Yeah. Charna Cassell: It's really, that's a really tricky one. And yet, I wonder, sometimes I wonder like, because there are certain notions that are, that are culturally framed, right? That like, what we see as a psychosis in this culture might be seen as vision in a different culture Totally. Et cetera. Right? So the, the rigidity that we have studied through kind, kind of reinforces those boxes. Although this is a tricky, it's a tricky example across, across culture. It exists everywhere, right? Taylor Perkins: Yeah. Charna Cassell: We could probably, I know that we could talk for It's so good. We could talk for hours and hours and hours. Taylor Perkins: Totally could. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Taylor Perkins: I so appreciate you having me. Charna Cassell: Where else can listeners find you? Taylor Perkins: It's mainly just TikTok and Instagram [00:48:00] right now. And, you know, we're figuring out some other things so that we can dive a little bit deeper than what we do on social media. So just follow me there. Charna Cassell: Awesome. Taylor Perkins: Yeah. You're, you're, you're own. You are the best teacher for yourself. You are your own guide. You hold the scripture within yourself. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Absolutely. Taylor Perkins: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Get to spend time with you. Once again, thank you so much for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like rate and review it and share it with your friends. Always interested in building community and also so that people can find the other resources that I offer. If you go to passionatelife.org, you can find out more information about my in-person group or my online course and workbook if you're not local. And you can sign up for my newsletter at charnacassell.com and that will keep you posted about [00:49:00] my offerings. This has been the LaidOPEN Podcast, and I'm your host, Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together Until next time. Okay.