Show Notes
[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Hi, welcome back to Late Open Podcast. I'm Charna Cassell, and today's episode is going to be a little different. , Joseph Kramer, who's a friend of mine, is going to be interviewing me and asking some basic questions about my work life, , and how I ended up on this path. I've had a lot of strangers, you , people reach out to me and ask me when they're thinking about making a career change or wanting to pursue something similar to what I'm up to.
[00:00:28] Charna Cassell: , they want to know more information and how they can go about making those changes. So, , here's a little bit about me and I hope it's useful.
[00:00:38] Charna Cassell: Today I have with me Joseph Kramer, who is a friend and a colleague, and we're going to do something a little different today. So first of all, welcome, Joseph.
[00:00:47] Learn how to live embodied If it's about to unwind Uncover new tools and start healing Leave trauma and tension behind Isn't it great laid open Let all your desires come true How can you live laid open Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new.
[00:01:33] Charna Cassell: So good to see you.
[00:01:34] Joseph Kramer: Hello, Cherna.
[00:01:35] Charna Cassell: He's going to be interviewing me today. And the reason that I asked Joseph to come on and interview me, , first, this interview is focused on, , giving some information for, strangers who DM me, , listeners, and clients who ask me questions about how I came to do what I do, and they may want to make their own career change, whether that's being a psychotherapist or working in the field of sexuality.
[00:02:06] Charna Cassell: And,, I wanted all the information to be in one place. And specifically, I think of Joseph as someone who is, an elder, a teacher, , a respected human, , and someone who, who holds a lot of history. And, and I love our conversations. So that is why I've asked him to interview me.
[00:02:28] Joseph Kramer: I was thinking, Sharna, Sharna, how we met. I remember, um, several years ago, Annie Sprinkle and Beth Stevens. had an eco sexual event where sexologists and people knowledgeable about sex gave information about connecting to nature and about sex. And I was at this table giving information and right next to me was you.
[00:03:03] Joseph Kramer: We got to know each other and I, I heard the information you were giving people and I go. Wow, this one's a professional. She really knows how to do it. I do. I remember, uh, for, for the listeners, we were actually in a very famous place in San Francisco, right outside City Lights Books, which is, uh, the first paperback bookstore in the United States.
[00:03:28] Joseph Kramer: Now the books are moving out of the consciousness, but that was the first place. And, uh, we were in the alley right behind it. It was really a wonderful meeting. And what I liked, what I liked when I met you was that you're a psychotherapist who knows about sex, whose specialty is sex. And I'm a sexologist.
[00:03:53] Joseph Kramer: I'm a sex educator. So that we have that foundation. That was our beginning.
[00:03:58] Charna Cassell: I remember. So first of all, I was excited that I was like, Oh, that's Joseph Kramer. Like I knew who, you know, I knew who you were. And so I was very flattered when you were praising the advice that I was giving people, right?
[00:04:14] Charna Cassell: I heard you talk to another person who had come to talk to you and you were like, you gotta, you know, talk to this one over here. , and something that stood out to me was that specifically, I think I was talking about trauma. And you were like, uh, you had some opinions about trauma and how it was being talked about in the field and, and then the way that I was approaching it shifted something for you.
[00:04:43] Charna Cassell: That's, I have the vague, broad brush stroke memory of that.
[00:04:48] Joseph Kramer: I think that's true. I think the other thing is, um, as a sex, sex educator, a professional, I refer people. Thank you. To other people a lot. And I, I had, it's really difficult to find, unfortunately, to find psychotherapists who are really knowledgeable and comfortable dealing with sexual problems that people may be having, you know, or sex is part of it.
[00:05:15] Joseph Kramer: And, We both happen to live in Oakland, California. So I go, Wow, I found someone who's knowledgeable about sex, a psychotherapist.
[00:05:25] Joseph Kramer: So how did you become, I'm interested in how, A nice girl like you as a psychotherapist became an expert in sex also. How are you a sex, a sex educator and a sex therapist? How did that come about?
[00:05:45] Charna Cassell: Well, I have to say, I, I, some of the latest training that I did was as a psychotherapist. So I was a sex educator and, , a certified master somatic coach at the Strozzi Institute before I ever got, became a licensed psychotherapist.
[00:06:03] Charna Cassell: , So I, you know, Ever since high school, I was very interested in sex and sexuality because of trauma, my own, um, child sexual abuse and understand, um, my own relationship to sex and sexuality. I came out when I was 15. Um, I identified as a lesbian for a long time and didn't start dating men until my late twenties.
[00:06:32] Charna Cassell: When I was 24, I started working at Good Vibrations. So I was already doing, um, sex education before then. I, I taught at a Wellesley summer program, um, right out of college and I remember leading a group and this was like the beginning of, you know, I don't know, I don't know what
[00:06:54] Charna Cassell: But it was already pretty impressive to me the kinds of education information that these young people, these 14, 15, 16 year olds had. , but anyways, fast forward. I worked at Good Vibrations,
[00:07:07] Charna Cassell: a worker owned sex toy store. , it used to be a co op. So when I work there it was a co op, which means it was worker owned.
[00:07:15] Charna Cassell: And through working there, there was also a woman who had worked there, Stacy Haynes, before I was ever there. And she had a book, The Survivor's Guide to Sex. And so, um, this was a book that's about healing sexual trauma and reclaiming your body and your sexuality. So it was a sex positive approach to healing from sexual trauma versus Courage to Heal was not seen as that, even though that's also a really useful book written by Laura Davis back in the day, so working at Good Vibrations, I was simultaneously in a group as well as, um, working individually with Stacey. so I was doing that training with her or working just in her private practice.
[00:08:01] Charna Cassell: Um, she was a somatic coach and I didn't know what that was yet, right? I'd been in therapy from the age of 14 on. So I knew what therapy was, kind of, you know, like I didn't know all the distinctions. Um, and I was also working at Good Vibrations, which I called Boundary Bootcamp because there would be boundary crossings that happened at work and I would get to practice the things that the bound, embodied boundary practices that Stacey was teaching us.
[00:08:33] Charna Cassell: While I was at work eight hours a day, right? So when Stacey, left her work, she, you know, she ended up leaving her private practice and going and teaching at Strozzi full time. I followed her. I didn't know what the Strozzi Institute was. , I didn't know what embodied leadership was, you know, but, but I followed her there.
[00:08:55] Charna Cassell: But your question, you specifically were asking, how did I, a nice Jewish girl, become, um, focused around sex and sexuality? So yeah, I, I wanted to heal my own, relationship to sex and understand why I was so terrified all the time.
[00:09:15] Charna Cassell: Um, and thank the Lord for somatic work, , because it shifted my nervous system in a way that talk therapy never did. Talk therapy offered me a lot of really great awareness, you know? I could analyze anything and everyone starting at 14 years old, but, um, you know what I mean? Like I really understood the psyche in certain ways that young people don't always, or, or adults don't always, unless they've been exposed to concepts.
[00:09:48] Charna Cassell: But, , my nervous system didn't change. My level of chronic anxiety didn't change. , my safety in my body and with others in relationship didn't change until I started doing somatic practices. So I can't really separate those two things. It's like an interest in sex and sexuality pre existed somatic work for me, but it was the wires for excitement and anxiety were crossed and I would mostly, I had a sexual aversion even though I was understanding things from an intellectual place.
[00:10:24] Charna Cassell: Like I was reading Carol Queen's book, Exhibitionism for the Shy. And real live nude girl before I was ever living in San Francisco and meeting her and working with her good vibrations right in college I was reading her stuff.
[00:10:39] Joseph Kramer: So this, this, this gives me a beginning. So you weren't studying psychotherapy yet you were in psychotherapy, because you somehow ended up good vibrations stores and there were several. were places that gave information to people. People knew if they went there, they could talk about sex and get products or the, or just help.
[00:11:08] Joseph Kramer: They had classes and all kinds of things. They were centers, actually, uh, the stores. So that was the sex education. And then you got hooked up with Strozzi Institute. And of course, this is the body.
[00:11:21] Charna Cassell: And so before we talk about Strozzi, I do want to say something about good vibrations, which is important, which is they offered extensive training.
[00:11:32] Charna Cassell: It wasn't like you were just getting people dildos. And vibrators, right? But we would take, we had a lot of educational classes that we were required to take. We were required to know the material and the products. So not just get free toys, but to read the books and to watch educational videos and, So, you know, the most satisfying part of that job for me was educating people like educating women and introducing them to, um, how large their clitoris actually is, or teaching an 80 year old woman how to, you know, like, a man, their, her, her partner to find her G spot and how to help her have her first orgasm.
[00:12:17] Charna Cassell: Like, that was the sweetest, sweetest thing, you know? , but because of my background in my own psychotherapy and psychology and understanding and also working with Stacey and having more understanding of sexual trauma, I was bringing that to, you know, to the, to the clientele, to the, to the people, um, that were coming in to buy products.
[00:12:42] Charna Cassell: I was talking to people all day and I was inevitably going to talk about sexual trauma. So I just want to acknowledge Good Vibrations for, back in the day it was FISI, the San Francisco Sex Education Line. and there was good vibrations, right? Those were, those were two places where you'd get a lot of really solid non, you know, not shaming sex information.
[00:13:08] Joseph Kramer: And this is really before it was on the internet or elsewhere. You had to go out and get it. You had to go out
[00:13:16] Charna Cassell: and get it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You would, you know, rent Nina Hartley's guide to blank, whatever educational video, Nina Hartley being a porn star that. started making a bunch of educational videos, or Joseph Kramer and Annie Sprinkles, Fire in the Valley, Fire in the Mountain.
[00:13:33] Charna Cassell: And then there was Strozzi, you started to ask me.
[00:13:36] Joseph Kramer: Yeah. Well, I know this. I've taken classes with, um, Stacy, your guide, not, not extensively, but it's, it was the, was the most well known and early, body based, uh, approach that if anything's going to happen, you have to bring your body along. It deals with the body.
[00:14:04] Joseph Kramer: That was their idea. Somatics is, there's, You know, when I first, when I first saw a psychotherapist, I would say most of it was from the head, the neck up,
[00:14:18] Charna Cassell: you're
[00:14:19] Joseph Kramer: talking about things and how you are in your body and how you're feeling. And you mentioned things like your nervous system is out of kilter and that all happens, but we're talking about.
[00:14:33] Joseph Kramer: Other psychotherapy was about, you know, why, how did this come about and what can we do about it was, and the wonderful thing in psychotherapy over the last 20 years is it is most psychotherapy, there's a corrective. And I think the whole profession understood wait, the body needs to be involved in, in this.
[00:14:58] Joseph Kramer: And so, more and more, I would say the majority of psychotherapists now would call themselves somatic psychotherapists if they include the body and being aware of the body. Mindfulness is a big deal and you represent that. I still think there's not enough comfort about sex, even though the body, even though sex is about the body, most psychotherapists Um, I, where I hear it is people say, you know, I go to, I go to psychotherapy, but I'm embarrassed to talk to my psychotherapist.
[00:15:36] Joseph Kramer: I don't want to tell my psychotherapist something about masturbation. I don't want to tell my psychotherapist and I go, what? You're paying somebody, you've been going to them for months and you have this difficulty that you're embarrassed to tell them. And this is quite common even today.
[00:15:52] Charna Cassell: One of the things that was really appalling to me, , when I went to school to become a psychotherapist, I did it reluctantly. I, you know, I did it, it wasn't something that I, you know, I've known people who've been harmed by therapists, um, haven't had positive experiences.
[00:16:10] Charna Cassell: I had a very beloved therapist as a teenager, um, but. I didn't, so I didn't like the representations of therapists out there in, in the media. And I didn't want to be in that role. And I felt like what, so I went to, I went to grad school to become a psychotherapist because I was told, you know, if you're wanting to work with teenagers, you're wanting to work with sexuality, you're wanting to work with the body, it's probably good for you to have a license.
[00:16:42] Charna Cassell: So I went and actually it was a very uninspiring experience. You know, I read everything that was assigned besides like this one class that I found incredibly boring. , but I, I thoroughly engaged with the material. , and enjoyed it to a certain extent, but really nothing touched.
[00:16:58] Charna Cassell: Working with Richard Heckler and Stacey Haynes in, in their embodiment, as well as the practices that felt irreplaceable. But one of the things that really frustrated me going to school for psychotherapy was, I think there was, I can't remember if it was, uh, 16 or 12 hours of, um, sexuality training.
[00:17:22] Charna Cassell: And in that training, and ironically, it was taught by Jack Moran, and I really liked his books. He wrote The Erotic Mind, which I think is a very useful application of Freud's repetition compulsion, the notion that you take something that's a childhood wound and you're unconsciously playing it out again and again to hopefully have a different resolution.
[00:17:45] Charna Cassell: And he related that to erotic life. And I, I thought that was a great book and I enjoyed doing our paper, but he was then like just talking to people about basic anatomy versus all the things that are really important to be able to talk about when you are doing, um, You know, therapy with a couple. So. To, to what you were saying, I think that's very true.
[00:18:12] Charna Cassell: That's that it should be part of your basic training. And unfortunately I was like, Oh my God, I got so much more out of my good vibrations training, but granted that was every day, eight hours for years that I was talking about sex. So there was a desensitization and a comfort and an ease as well as an enthusiasm that I brought to that topic.
[00:18:41] Joseph Kramer: And the people who came in to that store were all just such a diversity in San Francisco, different nationalities and different ages, as you said, 80 or 18, um, different, um, male, female, uh, all different types of queer, all different types of straight. You know, everything that we, so you were, it's a little different than what 18 hours in your, in the classroom with Jack Moore and yes,
[00:19:17] Charna Cassell: quite
[00:19:18] Joseph Kramer: an education.
[00:19:19] Charna Cassell: Yeah. I was very, I was very frustrated with that. And also on the same note, there was no trauma training, not a single, you had to, you could do an elective, like a separate thing that might be offered if you're lucky. But so the things that I received training in outside of being a psychotherapist, all the things that I.
[00:19:37] Charna Cassell: really specialize in working with were not things that I got trained in as a psychotherapist. Everything that is the, the way that I talk about being a psychotherapist is if you were to look at a beautiful mosaic, like a big, a mural made of tiles and all of the tiles are my somatics training, my trauma training, my energy medicine training, like everything that I've done outside of therapy school and the grout.
[00:20:10] Charna Cassell: is my psychotherapeutic training, which is basically they give you enough information to take a licensing exam. You know, they're teaching very basic things. And most often what people do is they go to school for psychotherapy and then they branch out and do a bunch of other trainings to figure out what their specialty is or what their niche is.
[00:20:35] Charna Cassell: And I kind of did it backwards, right? So I was already, um, I am a master somatic coach from the Strozzi Institute, and I already had a private practicing clients, and then I went and I was simultaneously in school for psych to get trained as a psychotherapist and I was always fielding the question. So why are you here?
[00:20:57] Charna Cassell: Why are you doing this?
[00:20:58] Joseph Kramer: Well, I have to say I'm glad for the grout. Yeah, we've all that brings everything together. , I know for the last for the last year you've been intensely focused on bringing not just the grout but a lot of this other information together into an offering. beyond one on one talking.
[00:21:23] Joseph Kramer: I want to say something about that, about your online course.
[00:21:27] Charna Cassell: So the course is called Pathways to Peace, Mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living. And it's actually, it was, I wrote a very big course, right? A 12 module course. And this is
[00:21:45] Charna Cassell: only two modules from that, but it's actually, it's turned into a daily practice.
[00:21:53] Charna Cassell: You get sent a video, it's a daily practice, and each week there's a video call. So for you to be in community and to get your questions answered. I also, I wanted it for, for people who are out there. I have a lot of listeners to my podcast, late open podcast, which you're listening to now all over the world, um, in countries that never ceased to amaze me.
[00:22:18] Charna Cassell: I'm like, wow, I am. I'm amazed that these people are listening to this podcast in English. Like, you know, I'm just really impressed by people's interest and, um, And so I wanted to have resources that are available outside of the Bay Area to the elite, right? Um, people who can afford to do, um, somatic therapy in person or on video.
[00:22:44] Charna Cassell: I just, I wanted to have a more affordable option out there. Um, and I've been working on a book off and on, and so it's the same idea. It's just like, how can there be resources available around the world. This course, um, is an opportunity for people to get introduced to this material, but as well as for, for clients or for people who are already doing it to have recorded material at home so that it's like, they don't take it copious notes.
[00:23:10] Charna Cassell: They don't have to ask me. Some people come see me, they come back five years later, I have different tools. You know, it's like they have videos to refer to. It has stuff that's focused around kind of the core principles that time and time I see are really important foundational pieces of information for people who are wanting to, to literally transform how they think about themselves and how they experience their bodies and the world.
[00:23:40] Charna Cassell: So some somatic practices, parts work, right? Some people call it internal family systems, but before I ever knew about internal family systems, I was doing parts work in my own therapy, right? When you're working with trauma or when you're being a human, when you're in a human experience, You have conflicting parts inside of you that feel different things and learning how to accept those parts and listen to those parts is a huge part of healing.
[00:24:10] Charna Cassell: Really it's like, so parts work, regulation, working with the nervous system, guided meditations, there's a bunch of stuff in there. And the thing that I have felt very validated by, what's that?
[00:24:28] Joseph Kramer: I'm just laughing. There's a bunch of stuff in there. There's
[00:24:30] Charna Cassell: a bunch of stuff in there. I feel like I don't
[00:24:33] Joseph Kramer: know what I like about this.
[00:24:35] Joseph Kramer: Thank you for showing it to me for giving me access is so I'm a sex educator and people come and think, Oh, that's interesting. They learn something and they think they know it. But To have sex or to, to change has, really involves practice. People need to practice something. They don't just change like this.
[00:25:02] Joseph Kramer: Flipping to a website on, through Google doesn't mean you know something. And what I like about your course is it's a practice based course. There's, there's videos and the videos are short. Some are five minutes, ten minutes. And putting forth something and then here's, here's a practice for this week that you can do, and you can meet, you'll, you have your meetings about it, but the practice is crucial.
[00:25:29] Joseph Kramer: And people who don't practice, don't change. You, you get to do it yourself. This is your choice. And that's, that's the beauty. You don't do this for people you're offering them practice and this is my work too. That's another, another way we have in common. And the people who practice go, wow. So, you know, something's really changed.
[00:25:52] Joseph Kramer: I, I teach touch. I teach, I ran a massage school for a while of teaching professional massage therapists and people don't just come in and do one work one time on the back and they've got it down how to work the back. Boy, if you go to a massage therapist you want somebody who's really good they have to practice.
[00:26:14] Joseph Kramer: And what we don't know. What the whole culture doesn't know is that practice is how we grow and change and All the helping professions should be helping our practice and to discern the practice. And that's what you're doing in this course. And in therapy, I think I've gone to therapy too, in the old days where once a week you go and okay, you deal with this, then you go out and nothing happens for a week.
[00:26:44] Joseph Kramer: And then you go back. No, now it's try this, do this. I think, um, yes, practice is how people Learn to enjoy. I think that's it. The practices. Yeah, that's it. So I'm, I think that's what's, it's a practice based course. That's why I left. I thought you said there's a lot of stuff in it.
[00:27:08] Charna Cassell: . Well, just just regarding that.
[00:27:12] Charna Cassell: I have wanted to figure out what do what can I do when in, you know, I see a client once a week, right? And it's like that space in between and trying, you know, you offer positive leverage, negative leverage, how do you create accountability, trying to help people practice and commit to practice. And,
[00:27:32]
[00:27:32] Charna Cassell: We come into this world with different levels of internal structure that helps us commit to practice, right?
[00:27:40] Charna Cassell: Um, different levels of what some people call discipline, um, and different survival strategies. And so that's a big piece of it is depending on how your nervous system responds to stress. Practice is going to be easier or harder for you. And so wanting this course is very much about unpacking the belief systems that.
[00:28:02] Charna Cassell: that, that shape us. , but also a lot of, , self acceptance of not just how we are in the world, but, but how we respond to stress. So it's, it's like helping us see ourselves, but also really, , start to do some practices that don't have to have us, , feel defeated by our automatic responses, but really provide a new way, but it's key.
[00:28:28] Charna Cassell: I am not going to heal anybody. People have to do their own practice, but I'm more than happy to cheerlead and offer support and resources.
[00:28:39] Joseph Kramer: And permission. Yes. I think, you know, that's, you're constantly, go out, do this. Yes, try that. Giving information and permission.
[00:28:52] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And I, you know, one of the things about that is, as I believe that, a team of support is valuable, right?
[00:29:00] Charna Cassell: It's not just going to be like one practitioner. I love referring people to other people for that reason. Um, that's one of the reasons I like doing my podcast is bringing resources, bringing people that I think are gifts to the world and that have, you know, healed themselves in a variety of ways, um, into the public view and to have, you know, to have other people have access and know who they are.
[00:29:24] Charna Cassell: And then additionally, community. Back to the Strozzi Institute, the work I did with Richard Strozzi Heckler and Stacey Haynes is essential for how I was transformed and discovered safety inside my own physical body. Richard uses martial arts based practices. He's an Aikido master. He was a Marine, um, in search of the warrior spirit was a, is a great book for people to read.
[00:29:54] Charna Cassell: Anatomy of change is a great book for people to read that he's written. And I left my first eight month trainings are very different than they once were. , one, one course was three days long for eight months. And I did courses like that for five years, um, and in that time I just, I really, I, I started my work at Strozzi feeling very skeptical of Richard because he was a man, simply because he was in a male body, I, I felt so unsafe around him, and I left feeling so much deep love and gratitude.
[00:30:34] Charna Cassell: I actually learned what gratitude was from my feelings towards Richard. And, um, it was like a mystery to me. I'm like, why do I feel happy and loving, but there are tears streaming down my face? What is that? And my therapist, Denise Benson at the time was like, that's called gratitude.
[00:30:57] Joseph Kramer: You know, I, I remember.
[00:30:59] Joseph Kramer: In your course, seeing, oh, this is from the Strozzi, this is the influence of the Strozzi Institute because you invite people to be grounded. Grounded in Strozzi means you're here in the present moment. So you're not concerned about the past or the future. And there's even practices you suggest to be right in the present moment.
[00:31:28] Joseph Kramer: And, of course, this is. A lot of I'm glad a lot of the culture is coming, trying to get people back to the present moment, because we're, we're, our attention is pulled into everywhere else into our phones and into the internet, all this, but that's part of what you're doing. And I go, ah, that's from the Strozzi Institute.
[00:31:49] Charna Cassell: Yes, part
[00:31:50] Joseph Kramer: of it is part of it is.
[00:31:52] Charna Cassell: Well, and, you know, there's, there's many different sources that teach the same thing, what I've found over the years, you know, having a, a teacher, I did a program with a man, , brother Ishmael Tete, who is a mystic from Ghana, and then reading a book, , The, that focuses on the Ohoponopono prayer and seeing the similar language, two places, one place in Hawaii and one place in, you know, Ghana and teachings that came to Brother Ishmael from the land itself that he transmitted and the language being so similar to the Ohoponopono prayer and them not knowing about one another, it speaks to that there are some universal truths.
[00:32:37] Charna Cassell: Right. There's, there's value in the collective unconscious. And so there are things that the, you know, that, that Richard invented and there are things that are just, you know what I mean? Like there's somatic work pre existed him. Um, and I will, I would, I would take all the money in the world and bet it on the practices that I Strozzi Institute.
[00:33:06] Charna Cassell: Um, so I, I am. indebted to them for teaching me practices that I think, you know, Stacy, when I was working with her in private practice, she would say, you can learn like what the work you can do in two years in this work is, is something that would take 20 years in psychotherapy. And I 20 years of psychotherapy would still do it because it's, if you're not addressing the nervous system in a mindful way.
[00:33:42] Charna Cassell: You know, I watch people just spin in loops versus I stand them up and do a physical practice, or I work, I do body work. 'cause those are different things that the STRs Institute taught. Mm-hmm . Is hands-on body work, physical partner-based practices. And then a huge part of my training also was through what's now called generative somatics.
[00:34:05] Charna Cassell: They used to be called somatics and trauma with Denise Benson and, and Stacy Haynes. And, um, that was looking at. And then, you know, she took the Strozzi Institute's work and applied it to trauma versus leadership, right? So embodied leadership is what, what Richard focused on, like how to make more humane, um, leaders in corporations and leaders in the world.
[00:34:29] Charna Cassell: And then Stacey took it and applied it to working with trauma and social justice. And so. You know, looking at systems, looking not just at the individual family unit, but looking at, you know, ancestral trauma, looking at society, looking at culture, like all the, the, this power, the systems of power that are around us that we're responding to all the time that influence and physically shape us as, as Richard would put it.
[00:34:59] Charna Cassell: I would say we have a somatic shape that is a result of our, our, our personal history, our belief systems, you know, and how we believe we need to be safe in the world or how we need to shape ourselves in order to connect.
[00:35:15] Joseph Kramer: You've got quite a diverse history of education that you bring to the present moment. You know, I have a question.
[00:35:23] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:35:23] Joseph Kramer: And this is a question I ask people after, I ask people in classes, and I ask people after a session that maybe I do a hands on session with somebody. And so I'm going to ask you.
[00:35:37] Joseph Kramer: Recently. in your life, in your education, in your work. What surprises you? Are there some surprises that come up? Wow.
[00:35:47] Charna Cassell: You know,
[00:35:51] Charna Cassell: I,
[00:35:57] Charna Cassell: this isn't the, This, this was an unfortunate surprise, I guess. I mean, it's not, it's like, it's not a surprise. It's just, you know, early on in my practice, um, when my fee was very low and, you know, I was saying yes to everyone. I, I hadn't learned how to be completely discerning about who I was interested in working with, you know?
[00:36:27] Charna Cassell: Like, I, I would, Even in an interview process, I, I was just saying yes to everybody. And I was very committed to being of service, also getting my hours. As a psychotherapist, you do 3, 000 hours of training. And, um, so the people that would come in would sometimes be abusive, you know, like you're sitting in, maybe you're getting paid, but you could be sitting in an, in a where if you're overly committed to being of service, You, I like to say, I've allowed the person to take a shit on my face.
[00:37:07] Charna Cassell: And it doesn't feel good. That's like, what do, what do you have to do in your own body? Are you twisting yourself into a balloon animal in order to stay in the room? And you're just taking everything that's coming at you. You're actually not being of service when you allow people to cross your boundaries.
[00:37:26] Charna Cassell: So that was years of practice. That took to know, okay, even in a first conversation with a potential client, do I want to work with them? Am I the right fit for them? And I'm at the point where I just asked my body when people want to refer people, I asked my body if it's going to be the right fit. And if I don't get a yes, then I don't even have that conversation with the person.
[00:37:55] Charna Cassell: And there are times when I have somebody come in and it's a really, it might be a really hard dynamic. But I, I get a nugget of gold from it because that was like, oh, that was what I was, I was meant to get. Right. So fast forward to the surprise. I haven't had a client in my office. Um, because I also work from home now.
[00:38:21] Charna Cassell: Right. So there are people are in my personal space in a way. Right. It's separate, but separate. in my home that hasn't felt really good and in a long time.
[00:38:34] Joseph Kramer: congratulations.
[00:38:35] Charna Cassell: Thank you. And yeah, I remember when I always had at least one client who took almost all of my supervision time because it just like wrung the life out of me and I was overworking and I've learned how to not do that.
[00:38:50] Charna Cassell: I've learned how to hand people's lives back to them and not feel overly responsible. , although I'm susceptible to that in life. Anyways, I had a client who I allowed to come in because I see their partner. And, and so this, my, my client brought their partner in and this person was not willing to, it basically felt like mandated therapy, which I do not do.
[00:39:17] Charna Cassell: And what I mean by that is like someone shows up and they're, they're like, well, I'm physically here, aren't I? You know, and they're not, willing to be accountable or take responsibility for their impact on their partner or be curious about themselves. And so, I have to say, you know, I am, that was, I was surprised by, my, my, my nervous system was jangled at the end of that session.
[00:39:48] Charna Cassell: I felt, because I feel everything, I get a lot of information through my body about what people are feeling. And that's how I make interventions, but it was like, um, like the, the circuit board was shot. It was so lit up. It was hard to decipher whose is what's is, and I would try to make an intervention, but there was no, you know, there was no way in, and I was just like, this is unpleasant, and I don't, I don't, you know what, I actually get to choose who I work with, and I don't want to do this, you know, um, but I, but the surprise for was, I think it's like being a Democrat in a liberal state.
[00:40:32] Charna Cassell: And you are surprised when Trump wins the election. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, we have to wake up to the fact, and you were saying something earlier that made me think of that, where
[00:40:47] Charna Cassell: there are a lot of psychotherapists that don't include the body at all. Right? That's still, there's even the Wright Institute doesn't teach the body and trauma. That's not part of their curriculum. So, that, it felt like that. Like, I was like, wow. I haven't encountered this in a long time and there are a lot of people out there who are not willing to take responsibility and to be accountable and often I'm working with their partners.
[00:41:19] Charna Cassell: I'm not working with them because they don't, they don't come in. Right. And my course, one of the things I say, it's like, who is this for? Right. And who is it not for? It's not willing. It's not for you if you're not willing to take responsibility for yourself. And you don't want to change the impact that you have on other people as a result of your automatic nervous system responses.
[00:41:42] Charna Cassell: So I just don't see those people as much anymore. Um, um, That was probably not where you imagined I would go with surprise, but.
[00:41:53] Joseph Kramer: It was a good surprise. I have another question.
[00:41:58] Charna Cassell: Yes, please.
[00:41:59] Joseph Kramer: Over the years, , I have heard you say that you, one of the things, you use the word liberation. Hmm. And I don't think that we've ever had a conversation about liberation, but when you're, when you're for helping people to be liberated, what is, what are they being liberated from or what are they being liberated to?
[00:42:27] Joseph Kramer: Because we, it's, it's a word that's used in racial areas and countries and history, you know, right now Ukraine, you know, is going on. So. And, and, um, Gaza, there's liberation things happening, or just in in your world when you use that I'd be interested in hearing a little about what that means to liberation.
[00:42:56] Charna Cassell: Oh, it's so layered. Um, I was, I was writing the other day. And I was reflecting on my own nervous system and habits that of, of, um, like survival strategies that I've used. And one of them that I think actually has been with me probably before I existed in this lifetime, right? One is it's being a commitment to being of service.
[00:43:26] Charna Cassell: Right. It's it. My Charna, actually, even though it's Yiddish, I was named after my great grandmother. Um, I was told by somebody who speaks Hindi and also, you know, in Sanskrit, so I was born in Nepal. And so I end up in these conversations, um, about the origin of my name because people think it's, it's actually a Hindi name.
[00:43:49] Charna Cassell: Um, but it literally means like the do at the feet of the gods, but basically being the translation of being of service to the gods. And, and that resonates for, for me in a deep way. I don't think my name is an accident. Um, so being of service, but sometimes to my own detriment, like that can be something that you really need to put in check and learn how to have boundaries around and learn how to, um, not do compulsively.
[00:44:21] Charna Cassell: Right. And. And so I was thinking about being of service and my commitment to people's liberation and liberation to me, it's, it's as someone who didn't feel safe inside my physical body, or safe inside the world. And so some people get either really, really tight, they get really pulled back, or they leave their bodies.
[00:44:49] Charna Cassell: Right. So to be, to be liberated, it's like, how do you actually occupy, you can, instead of making yourself almost invisible inside your own shell of a body so that you're safe. How do you, taking bigger breath is the beginning, right? How do you expand fully into your, the edges of your body? How do you bring more oxygen and flow so that you can think clearly, that you can open your peripheral vision, that you can then connect from this place, you can connect out into relationships with life around you?
[00:45:31] Charna Cassell: Right? So first, it's like on a, on a personal level, there's that. Then you have inside, you have, like, stretching your fascia with your breath, and then your thoughts. What are you, what restriction exists inside the way you think about yourself and other people, and how you have to be to be lovable and to be worth, you know, To be a valuable human and have the right to exist.
[00:46:04] Charna Cassell: So, so many of us are, it's almost like, uh, I was watching a cult documentary. I have a bad habit of watching cult documentaries. And I think growing up in an abusive family, or a culture that is hateful towards you because of your skin, because of your, uh, religion, because of your, you know, sexuality, um, you get brainwashed into believing hateful things about yourself.
[00:46:34] Charna Cassell: And it feels so true and so real, and you don't even realize that they're belief systems, and so helping people start to unwind that, um, so liberating on a, it, it, it can relate to sex and sexuality, I ask people like, what's your, you know, what is, what is sexual freedom to you? What is embodied freedom to you?
[00:46:56] Charna Cassell: Like freedom from believing that we are dependent on other people for our well being. Yes, we are, we, we coexist in a, um, a family of things. We are pack animals, but we also can heal ourselves in profound ways, certain amount of guidance, but then through meditation, through self practice. Right? Like we get to take more responsibility for our wellness, um, because I think people don't want us to, uh, to have that, right?
[00:47:33] Charna Cassell: Just on a larger way of a systemic level, right? It's like they're, I, I call meditation and a variety of other things, anarchist medicine, you know, because we can liberate ourselves and remember that we are much more powerful than we think we are.
[00:47:54] Joseph Kramer: Yes, thank you. I think meditation is often where, as you've said, it can be on our breath, on tensions in our body, on in our mind, but we're, we're choosing where to place our attention.
[00:48:12] Joseph Kramer: And a lot of the culture wants to choose for us where to place our attention. That's what advertising is, and all this. So, Thank you. I, I, but I, I, I like that word liberation and I want to use it more. So I'm glad. Thank you for your comments.
[00:48:31] Charna Cassell: Thank you for asking. It's, um, you know, it's, it's really heartbreaking when you look around the world and you look at the oppression and the genocide and the harm that is occurring.
[00:48:46] Charna Cassell: And there are things that we don't have, like we feel so powerless to make a difference in. And so, you know, I think that the more that you are, and it's so hard, I mean, this is such a big, complex conversation. We could just do a topic about liberation. Um, but the more that you liberate yourselves, then hopefully, at least in my experience, I felt so much more connected to the rest of the field and the people in it.
[00:49:25] Charna Cassell: And, and then you, you hopefully don't cause the same harm or want to cause that kind of harm, right? There's more consideration. So, you know, small forms of activism in that way, right? Obviously, we need to go beyond that, but it's like, stop scrolling. And you know, I mean, it's hard. It's like what you said in terms of even, you know, you mentioned compression socks and then suddenly it's in your feed.
[00:49:58] Charna Cassell: And so, yes, your attention is constantly being pulled towards something that you can purchase or something to distract you. And I succumb to it. And sometimes I really enjoy it. Right. We need a break from constantly being of service or whatever, but at the same time, it can become all that you do.
[00:50:19] Joseph Kramer: So I would guess that one of the, one way of looking at psychotherapy is, Oh my God, I have to sit here with somebody for 50 minutes and listen to their whatever. And, but I think another way, but you just, there's, you hear little breakthroughs and little changes and you invite them. You see their breath changes a little as you're saying, or they relax a bit in their body or their mind.
[00:50:50] Joseph Kramer: So you get to see the results of liberation also. Um, well, it's, it's wonderful. I, I, I really like work that is about service of others. And as you said, it's not service of everyone indiscriminately. That's craziness. We don't, that's actually arrogance. We think we can do that. All kinds of people, but I think, , I think we need more people in the world who just, who have that generosity to be there for others.
[00:51:29] Charna Cassell: Mm. Agreed. And, you know, I want us to, to the people that send me questions and ask me about this or that, and, you know, there, I want to just, I'd love for you to also, , share some resources that you might know about, , because, you know, you have created a really important, , contribution, which is sexological body work.
[00:51:55] Charna Cassell: , and I believe it was body electric school that you founded as well. Yeah. And so that there's different resources out there for people that are wanting to help people, um, increase their liberation around sex and sexuality. There's a lot, and we are both in the Bay area, but sexological body work is all over the world.
[00:52:18] Charna Cassell: you know, Locally, there's Somatica, if you're interested in that, there's the Strozzi Institute, , there's Hakomi, which also works on a somatic, , with a somatic approach. There's Bodynamics, which is a piece of the work that I do and really love. Um, so feel free to throw some in there, Joseph.
[00:52:42] Joseph Kramer: No, I think you're Well, for me, I think, um, anything somebody can do that brings them into their body, that's the first step. You have to be here now, so going for a walk, exercise, eating good food, um, laughing with friends. So just, you know, being in your body. And, and as you say, scrolling or watching television or, , I, I actually.
[00:53:19] Joseph Kramer: have a, I actually feel we're, we're getting more and more unhealthy in that way, that, that we are a disembodied people, that we're, there's, there's amazing things that happen through our films. That's the thing. Amazing connections. And I mean, I, I can, I can watch any movie I want somehow through, through my, my, uh, through the internet.
[00:53:49] Joseph Kramer: I can listen to music. I could go out, but if, if all of that is if I'm forgetting myself, so I think the forgetting of our bodies, um, this is, that's my work and that's part, that's part of your work, you know, well, that's part of the work you have to remember.
[00:54:11] Joseph Kramer: It's remembering. Right.
[00:54:13] Charna Cassell: And, and I saw specifically.
[00:54:16] Charna Cassell: wondering if there are trainings that you know of that people could seek out. Um, but then I also realized we never talked, we didn't define semantics or embodiment. And so I would like to just take a moment to do that so that, you know, there are people out there that don't know what somatic means. And somatics, the, the living body in its wholeness is what it literally translates to your, your connection between your mind, body, spirit, and emotions.
[00:54:50] Charna Cassell: So your one, your, your whole system, it's a very holistic approach rather than trying to separate the mind from the body and to it, which seems absurd, right? If you, if you swim in that soup long enough, right? , that we get the same neural pathways live. in your body. You can rewire your brain through physical practices, not just thinking or reading about something, right?
[00:55:20] Charna Cassell: , And so to embody yourself is to physically feel and be informed by the sensations that you can feel in all parts of your body. Cause if you focus right now on your body, on your whole being, there might be places that are tight or loose or warm or cold. They might be completely blank. You might have a certain part of you that you feel more than everything else.
[00:55:53] Charna Cassell: And so to be able to have your physical experience and your sensations inform you and help you know maybe what your emotions are in this moment, if you don't know, if you asked yourself what am I feeling and you don't have an answer, but you know enough that when you're really hot in the face, that shame or there's a tension in your belly and you identify that as anger or a heaviness in your chest and that's grief.
[00:56:21] Charna Cassell: So we can really get a lot of information. about what feels good to us and, or what doesn't when we pay attention to our body and our body signals. And that's really one of the values rather than overly thinking everything.
[00:56:37] Joseph Kramer: Overly thinking. Somebody, I asked somebody once, so how can you tell, I was in a class, I think, how can you, how can I tell if I've really learned something?
[00:56:53] Joseph Kramer: And this person said, well, the less you think, the more you've learned. And I go, that doesn't sound, I was really, I was really thrown. I remember it, but I didn't believe it at the time, but it is, it is, it's not to put down thinking. We both went to graduate school, I've spent, unfortunately, most of academia is about thinking, but it's really important to feel, to remember the body, to notice.
[00:57:29] Joseph Kramer: Noticing. And I like to further savor, not just to feel, but to savor. Even if it's sadness, even if it's Through that pain. Oh, well if it's gonna be there, I might as well kind of enjoy it. And so, savor, . Mm-hmm .
[00:57:47] Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm . And be, be, be appreciative. Right. There's a lot of trying to get away from ourselves, getting away from pain, getting away from it felt experience.
[00:57:57] Charna Cassell: If we don't, if we deem it not likable, when it's actually a really important voice for us to listen to. It's communicating something.
[00:58:06] Joseph Kramer: There's two main reasons that I personally, and in my work, find paying attention to my body important. One is health.
[00:58:17] Joseph Kramer: All kinds of things start, and you can feel them, little tiny things start inside in your body. You notice it, and you just put it aside, or you don't notice it, and you don't notice it for years. My father had a very serious thing that he didn't pay attention to for three years. And I go, Oh, I'm in that. I mean, I've learned.
[00:58:40] Joseph Kramer: I'm a chip off the old block. Pay attention. Um, so there's health things that we can pay attention to. As simple as I ate this and it doesn't feel good. This doesn't, eating this doesn't make me feel good. Eating this makes me feel good. You know, not feeling good on the tongue, like sugar sometimes does, or ice cream, makes you feel good in your whole body a half hour later.
[00:59:06] Joseph Kramer: Oh, eating that was, really made me feel good. So, part of, one, one reason to feel is the health. And the other is, more and more, this is how I make decisions. You said gut, you know, you pay attention to your gut about when you're talking about clients who are crossing boundaries or, um, I, it's, our, our gut tells us all kinds of stuff if we pay attention, notice.
[00:59:40] Joseph Kramer: So I make, I think more and more I make decisions by, it's, it's not like thinking should I do this or this? It's like, Being with something saying, Oh, yeah, I think yes, but it's paying attention to the body. So um, it's, yeah, it's the body.
[01:00:00] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And I, I want to add one other piece. I didn't really talk about this, but I'll just throw it in there because it is, um, energy medicine school, right?
[01:00:11] Charna Cassell: There's places like Berkeley psychic horizons or psychic horizons is, is where I went in San Francisco, but there's the Berkeley psychic Institute. That's good. And so that's, that's the body, but it's our energy systems, right? Working with the, with the chakras, working with, The energy that we take on from other people, and we may not have any awareness that it's there.
[01:00:34] Charna Cassell: That we are the, we are the, the storage locker for, uh, you know, our ancestors and for all the people that we've met over the last 30 years, um, for, for energy that's been dumped. And, and that's a whole other topic for another day, but it's. It was a huge piece of healing for me, healing chronic fatigue and, and getting in for like how I work with clients and, and the information that I receive.
[01:01:03] Charna Cassell: And so that's another thing for people I've referred clients over the years to go do their own work there when I, cause I guide people through visualizations and meditations and it's, that's been really big for them. So, you know, I just want to say that. Um, not everything is going to be, it's not going to be the same path for everybody and you really need to be guided by your own spirit.
[01:01:29] Charna Cassell: one of the resonance, one of the things that I, I really relate to you, Joseph, with is, you know, like, as you said, being of service and, , that you have a history of connection. , you may call it spirit, you may call it God. You know, you're much more traditionally religious than than I was, , but that there's awareness of something bigger.
[01:01:53] Charna Cassell: and that your spirit is guiding you to something, like you were guided to be of service through that work. And so, you know, I, I think that I can give you, I can give people logistical pieces of information and guidance, but ultimately they need to be in their own practices to listen deeply inside themselves for what the next step is.
[01:02:14] Charna Cassell: Right. And just, I'm gifted with being connected to my gut, and that, that's a resource for me. Um, and so, You know, but that's not everybody's reality, right? We all have different strengths. And so we have to figure out how to listen to our own bodies in different ways.
[01:02:34] Joseph Kramer: Well said. Many paths of liberation.
[01:02:37] Joseph Kramer: Find yours.
[01:02:38] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Many paths. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much.
[01:02:46] Joseph Kramer: It's been a delight.
[01:02:47] Charna Cassell: Thank you for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, My online course, Pathways to Peace, Mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living is open for ongoing enrollment. This means you can sign up at any time. It's a self paced course to make it manageable with your schedule.
[01:03:04] Charna Cassell: And as for the coursework, you'll receive four weeks worth of daily videos where I teach you how to understand your nervous system and its reactions. How to think more clearly and gain perspective. How to transform the ways your body communicates through physical sensations. How to identify emotions, where they come from and what they're telling you.
[01:03:23] Charna Cassell: How to discover why you react in ways that produce shame and learn tools to manage these reactions. How to reduce your anxiety and destructive impulses and how to diminish self hatred when you are not your best self. You can also sign up for weekly group coaching calls where you'll have direct contact with me and I'll answer any of your questions.
[01:03:43] Charna Cassell: If you wanna learn more before then and hope you do, you can go to my course page courses dot charna cael, that's C-H-A-R-N-A-C-S-S-E-L l.com for more. Information.
[01:03:58] Charna Cassell: If you appreciated this episode, please like rate and review it and share it with your friends. If you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at laid open podcast.
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[01:04:29] Charna Cassell: This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together.
[01:04:37] Charna Cassell: Until next time.