Redemption, Bravery, And Forgiveness Featuring Christian Branscombe

Show Notes [00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Welcome back to LaidOPEN podcast. You can now register for my highly anticipated hybrid online course, pathways to peace, mindful practices for transformative and vibrant living. [00:00:12] Charna Cassell: Through daily videos and weekly coaching calls, I will teach you how to understand your nervous system and its reactions, how to think more clearly and gain perspective, how to translate the ways your body communicates through physical sensations. How to identify emotions, where they come from, and what they're telling you. [00:00:31] Charna Cassell: How to discover why you react in ways that produce shame and learn tools to manage these reactions, how to reduce your anxiety and destructive impulses, and how to diminish self-hatred when you are not your best self. The course starts July 29th. If you wanna learn more before then, and I hope you do, you can go to my courses page, which is courses dot charna cael, that's C-H-A-R-N-A-C-A-S-S-E-L l.com for more information. This is your host, Charna Cassell, and today's guest is Christian Branscombe. He, at 21, was sentenced to life in prison without parole for first degree murder. And there was another man that he shot who survived, and he went on to, to actually, , Work with and create a number of programs doing transformative justice work and community healing. [00:01:26] Charna Cassell: And, , this conversation was so satisfying. We talked for an additional hour afterwards and I wish you could get all of that information and I plan to have him back on. , because I think. The work that he's doing in such a polarized time in history is really, really useful. So there are people who have PhDs and then there are people who through life experience, , develop embodied wisdom from their practice and, , One of the things that we talked about offline was how for a five year period of time, he'd given up his TV and didn't, , know how long it was going to last, but he went on a five year journey of meditating multiple times a day and doing a deep dive in reading and, , the self discovery that he went through, as well as what he offered his community inside a prison and then outside a prison is quite remarkable, and I highly recommend you stay tuned and you listen to the rest of this episode. [00:02:24] Learn how to live embodied If it's about to unwind Uncover new tools and start healing Leave trauma and tension behind Isn't it great laid open Let all your desires come true How can you live laid open Imagine yourself brand new. Imagine yourself brand new. [00:03:10] Charna Cassell: Welcome Christian. [00:03:12] Charna Cassell: I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. How are you today? [00:03:17] Christopher Branscombe: I'm doing really great and I'm equally happy to be here and I appreciate that you invite me to this space. [00:03:24] Charna Cassell: And, and so before we started recording, you were sharing a little bit about what you just came from, and you're really, you're vibrant in this moment, and I would love to hear, I'd lOve to share with the audience. [00:03:35] Christopher Branscombe: I had a close friend of mine inside that I used to mentor. I taught him how to do art and we ended up building a men's group together probably eight years ago. And this is mind you, this is something that's illegal in a lot of ways. And that you can't reach out to the survivors of your crime. They have to reach out to you. [00:03:52] Christopher Branscombe: A lot of them don't know how to do that or know that it's beneficial for them to do that. So, it's very uncommon at this point. We built this men's group. We spent a year and a half, almost two years, , trying to define what it is that amends what it does and what's valuable to the person that survived the crime and what's necessary inside of that for the community to heal as well. [00:04:14] Christopher Branscombe: So we spent a lot of time really, you know, thinking about these things and cultivating these things in ourselves. I ended up getting a commutation, you know, he's still inside, but today, just today, he got a sentence reduction from 50 to life to, , 21 flat. And he's already, you know, it's very likely he'll come home soon, but the mother of the person he killed was there today. [00:04:36] Christopher Branscombe: And, you know, and of course, you know, People might think we come there in a stance to be arbitrary or to go against these people, but really, we have a lot of compassion for them in the sense that, like, they feel just as powerless in the system as anybody does in this moment, because they got promised retribution. [00:04:53] Christopher Branscombe: Now that's not being carried out the way that they thought. the one little thin thread of vengeance that's there to kind of like, you know, It goes away in this moment and they realize how the system really doesn't need them You know, like it's it's only when they're angry are they valuable, right? So It it was you know it was very surprising to see this turn into a healing moment for the survivor of this crime and and for them to Feel support and to make decisions that they were like, you know, i'm just gonna I have to let go of this I can't carry this burden anymore You And so for for this exchange to happen in a courtroom of all places, and then for us to be the ones consoling them at the end of the hearing and connecting with them. [00:05:36] Christopher Branscombe: And I want to connect them to the survivor of my crime. And like, you see this network starting to develop and you can almost see in their face, like, I, I don't know how this is happening. I finally gave up and now all of this stuff is flooding in, you know, so it was, it was just, , an unexpectedly really powerful moment for, for everybody in the, I mean, even the sheriffs were crying. [00:05:58] Christopher Branscombe: I mean, it was, it was intense. It was really good. It was really good. Good feeling. [00:06:02] Charna Cassell: What did, what did you, were you facilitating, like, what do you think facilitated the mother's openness to having that dialogue with your friend? [00:06:12] Christopher Branscombe: Well, you know for the way that she expressed it is that I feel like she's doing what I call that leap of faith Like she's exhausted. [00:06:21] Christopher Branscombe: She's overwhelmed with the anger like at some point This doesn't work anymore and it's like either you implode or you let go of it, right? And so it's almost as desperate as the anger is, you know, it's just like it's not working I need something else to come in and for her You know, that was her church and like you're trying to let go of this. [00:06:40] Christopher Branscombe: So she's like forgiving for its sake alone. And I can relate to that because Gunnar came in, you know, that's the survivor of my crimes, Gunnar. And he came in under that impetus, not necessarily with the church, but with this idea that like, look, I'm not going to destroy my life with the anger I hold for you. [00:06:56] Christopher Branscombe: I have to let this go so that I can be sober, so that I can be the person I need to be. I need to move on. And she's at that stage, but, but still, it's such a courageous thing to do in that space and to say that to the person that has harmed you so deeply and just be like, okay, I, I, I'm just letting go of this. [00:07:14] Christopher Branscombe: But then in that moment to find all of this support and unexpected, I mean, I can honestly see in her face. Like she was like, what is happening right now? Like all of these people. know what I'm feeling are ready to catch me while I'm falling here. Like [00:07:29] Charna Cassell: it [00:07:29] Christopher Branscombe: was this tremendous support from what should would normally be the opposing team in a courtroom. [00:07:34] Christopher Branscombe: Right. So instead of two sides, it was just one side. [00:07:37] Charna Cassell: Given what we're dealing with in this time in history, the degree of polarity currently around so many things, that's, that's incredible. Right. And that's really what you're, what it feels like your life work is, is unifying. [00:07:54] Christopher Branscombe: Well, oddly enough, this is where it was found, was through the impetus of amends, right? [00:07:58] Christopher Branscombe: So the, the journey that ended up healing me was the one that I actually was trying to do for somebody else. But I had to do it for myself first. You know, the, the one thing I try to intimate to people that are dealing with people that are traumatized or traumatizing other people is that, If you can't feel your pain, you can't relate to somebody else's. [00:08:17] Christopher Branscombe: So that's the first key in the journey is understanding that in a very, , personal way. You know, that, that we're not going to relate to others until we can feel our own pain, right? [00:08:29] Charna Cassell: Well, and the challenge there is so many people who are offenders, , they've, they've had their own trauma. And if you can, you know, and it's like you're dissociating or walling off so that, cause otherwise it feels. [00:08:43] Charna Cassell: Um, and it's so overwhelming and you have to be with all the powerlessness of having suffered whatever happened to you. And so when you're keeping yourself away from that, it makes it really hard to tolerate any imagining anyone else is a victim because that means you have to also look at how you've been victimized. [00:08:59] Christopher Branscombe: That's absolutely true. I mean, we, in the process when I usually go through a healing circle with people when I worked inside a lot more, it was. You know, that was the, the denial of any trauma was very present. I remember I usually do things in five year increments starting from birth till, you know, your, your primary conditioning, secondary conditioning. [00:09:21] Christopher Branscombe: I kind of worked up from there into personas and like how our actual pattern of coping turned into justifiable harm to other people. And in that the first one is always the same. I'd be like, all right, so tell me about your childhood. You know, there's usually 10 guys in a group. Maybe like, Oh, I had a great childhood, this, that, and I'm like, okay, well, I don't believe you because anybody that's sitting in the circle, that's created great harm, I promise you it didn't come from out of the outer space here. [00:09:47] Christopher Branscombe: So let's revisit it. And, and in that process of revisiting, even just one to five, because you have, you don't have direct memory. You have to consult family. You have to look, you know, you have to really explore this idea. It's, it's deeply humbling and very emotional for people to realize how they've normalized their trauma and how they don't relate to it anymore. [00:10:07] Christopher Branscombe: You know, like, so that's how they can say, oh, this person shouldn't have feelings over here because I'm not allowed to have feelings. They shouldn't have feelings, you know? So stop crying or whatever it is that they, they tell themselves, they tell the other people. [00:10:17] Charna Cassell: No, absolutely. And be a man. [00:10:20] Christopher Branscombe: Yeah. Grow up. [00:10:22] Charna Cassell: And you know, so often there's, there's generational trauma, right? [00:10:27] Charna Cassell: It's handed down. And so of course it's normalized. Cause you're like, this is what mom did. This is what grandma did. This is what, you know, and so on. , so our, our standards, our tolerance levels for abuse and harm and, and not being with feelings is quite high. [00:10:46] Christopher Branscombe: You also, you know, it's tricky because the way trauma reenactment works is that you actually learn the idea of strength through weakness, right? [00:10:54] Christopher Branscombe: So you punch me in the face, I hit the ground, I know there are two things in that moment. I'm weak and you're strong. [00:11:02] Charna Cassell: So if [00:11:02] Christopher Branscombe: I don't want to feel this weakness, I'm going to act like you, you, you have become my definition of strength because you made me feel weak. That isn't true strength, but that becomes the ethos of strength from the perspective of shame. [00:11:16] Christopher Branscombe: Right. So when we're in that space, that becomes our definition of strength. Later on, I encourage people in the groups. I'm like, okay, so you've sacrificed your physical and mental and emotional well being not to face this. You put your life in jeopardy. You put other lives in jeopardy. You've done everything humanly possible to avoid this thing. [00:11:35] Christopher Branscombe: What do you think is the most courageous thing you can do in your life? [00:11:38] Christopher Branscombe: It is face this fear, it is to face this shame that you think is going to destroy you, and it isn't right so this is the true call to action, and the new definition of courage and strength is defined through this journey in a very intimate way because. [00:11:54] Christopher Branscombe: It's obviously very overwhelming, you know, so it's, it's always very powerful to, to see that epiphany come to, to light for people, you know, and along the way, but [00:12:04] Christopher Branscombe: It always comes, you know, [00:12:06] Charna Cassell: well, and, and what you're pointing to is there's, you know, there's, there's power over. Right. It's like power over power under and that that's the dynamic and that's the understanding of what it means to be in power and to be strong and the work that you're doing brings people. [00:12:22] Charna Cassell: It's like, okay, how can we be empowered together and with one another and not just individuals, but in community. Um, [00:12:30] Christopher Branscombe: well, I think you learn the power of community through this idea because you realize that shame is self isolating. In other words, if I think, Hey, you're not going to accept me for this deep, dark secret I have. [00:12:42] Christopher Branscombe: So no matter how kind or loving or supportive you are of me, I always know, like if you knew this, you wouldn't be now. It's not a true knowing I superimpose that knowing. So I'm self isolating because I'm protecting myself. And I don't want to be rejected again, or I don't want to be heard again. So, and more importantly, I really don't want to feel those things that are going to trigger all the other memories that I'm holding back. [00:13:06] Christopher Branscombe: So there's this solid, just rigid wall in between me allowing people in. So there is no community when you have shame, you know, there is no connection. And there you're at your weakest point in your life. And that is why you're so fragile and so sensitive. And so, um, driven for safety and control is because those things are so flimsy inside of you, like the smallest little thing can overwhelm you. [00:13:31] Christopher Branscombe: And that in itself is shameful. The fact that we feel so weak and we feel so overwhelmed with things that other people can deal with, but they have a support network. They have a best friend that listens to their pain. They have somebody that consoles them. They have a team and that community is ultimately our, our, our truest strength, but you have to be available for it, right? [00:13:50] Christopher Branscombe: So shame is the ultimate blocker of that interconnection in our communities and ourselves and our families, everything, you know, [00:13:57] Charna Cassell: absolutely. I read that, that the statistic is that one in 20 men in prison were sexually abused before the age of 18. And I imagine that given it's so underreported that that's a very inaccurate, , descriptor. And that it was much higher. And I was curious what you discovered in your amends groups, if that was something that people as, , more vulnerability emerged and more willingness to move away from denial and shame and feel themselves, if more of that came out. [00:14:30] Christopher Branscombe: , I would say predominantly every person that's committed murder that I knew had ACEs or sexual harm as a child. , It, it, it takes an incredible amount of, , courage and strength to, to share those things, especially in a group setting. , I find that one on one they're much more likely to, to share that, especially if I've shared my sexual harm and they realize I'm not destroyed. [00:14:53] Christopher Branscombe: My life is not, you know, like I'm not falling apart over here. But for them to do it in a group setting is really the rite of passage because you have to really come to terms with the fact that this happened in your life, that isn't going to go away, and it's okay, you know, and to, and to face rejection from other people, ultimately is your greatest fear, you know, when it comes to, since you're already self isolated, you don't really feel like You could take another loss, right? [00:15:23] Christopher Branscombe: So the pretense of connection is so powerful that you would rather have that than none at all, right? And so it's, yes, but I would say predominantly, yes, that, that, , the majority of people, , You know in and out of prison. I mean, there's a lot of male trauma that isn't reported or acknowledged or oh Yeah, you know you see it you see it later on, you know when you know You hear all the shows coming up where they're like, oh this priest or this scout and this that like It's like these are all regular people now They didn't harm anybody else, but they were deeply impacted by it, but it's much more prevalent than I think People credit to [00:15:57] Charna Cassell: absolutely. [00:15:58] Charna Cassell: I mean, years ago, like close to 20 years ago, I was doing a, I was in a training and we were doing community response projects and it was focused around ending child sexual abuse within five generations, an organization called generation five. So at the time I, I went to a wedding and I was actually accompanying a friend whose, whose family had disowned her because she'd been sexually abused by the stepfather and hadn't seen them in seven, anyone in 17 years. [00:16:25] Charna Cassell: And so her family basically, besides the person getting married, all chose to not go to the wedding to not see her. So I, I went there in support of her and, you know, you chat with the strangers, , at the priest, like wedding guests, and I would say what I was up to, what the work I was doing in the world was, and, People were coming out to me left and right, [00:16:47] Christopher Branscombe: I always tell people. [00:16:48] Christopher Branscombe: Yeah. Yeah. If people have a real opportunity for acceptance, they'll choose it. And a lot of times people say nobody will ever admit to this or own it. And I said, no, they're dying to admit to it. They want to, but. They have to overcome that fear of a narcissistic injury, you know, like they don't want to challenge their cohesion of self with this idea, you know, so you have to create a, people always say a safe space, but a safe space is created through everyday interactions of acceptance, understanding. [00:17:20] Christopher Branscombe: Availability, like, these are the things that say to somebody unconsciously or consciously, like, this person can accept me as I am. [00:17:29] Charna Cassell: Right. And that, those interactions, because I was so casually talking about how do we not, you know, , create a system where people who are offenders are just left on an island somewhere rather than how do we actually resource bystanders, give resources to offenders so that there can be some healing. [00:17:50] Charna Cassell: and resolve. And so having those conversations where things weren't so polarized or so, you know, so black and white. , I think people, it relieves their shame, their internalized sense of, oh, I can't talk about this. It's like, oh, this is actually wedding dinner conversation. [00:18:06] Christopher Branscombe: Yeah, exactly. And that every, I had a person write me from prison randomly because I do coaching and they were, the family actually reached out. [00:18:15] Christopher Branscombe: Not in the topic of what I coach in, which is shadow work, which is like focused on shame and healing and that journey. But they thought because I'd gotten a commutation that I could help him somehow get a commutation. Right. And I said, well, I don't do that, but you know, if you want to work on your trauma, I can give you a couple of steps and kind of lead you in the right way. [00:18:33] Christopher Branscombe: And he starts out with sexual trauma as a kid, right? And I said, and he goes, I don't have anybody I can talk to. And he's like, you know, he's feeling desperate. And I said, well, I'm going to give you an epiphany here, bro. The real truth of it is, is that every dude you're looking at around you has had the same trauma. [00:18:47] Christopher Branscombe: And I said, if you have the courage to own it in a real way, you're going to find out that there are many other people that, , not only had your experience, but are coping with the same things that you're feeling right now. And he went to a group a couple of weeks later and shared for the first time about it ever in his life. [00:19:05] Christopher Branscombe: And he's in his fifties. And, , seven out of the nine people admitted in that group that they had been sexually traumatized. And he thought he was alone when he's surrounded by fellow people that are going through the same thing. So it's a, it really is a misconception, you know? [00:19:20] Charna Cassell: Oh, absolutely. I mean, and you know, it, it relates to so many different topics, but there are things it's like, if there's that shame and there's that feeling of like, I, there's a pulling in. [00:19:32] Charna Cassell: And the tighter you get inside and the less, you know, like the more you're holding your breath, , the more you want to disappear. And that just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because then , it makes it harder to share. And then people perceive you as being walled off and they, then they don't want to move towards you or share with you. [00:19:50] Charna Cassell: And then it's just, yeah, we all get cut off and more isolated. You know, I'm one of the things that, , I read in your story is that you studied Buddhism and I was curious in prison. , what, what do you think made you open to that? Was that something that you did? You go in with, , leaning towards spirituality or consciousness. [00:20:11] Christopher Branscombe: I mean, for me, I've always been, somebody that seeks purpose. Even when I was really, you know, screwed up, I, I wanted to have purpose, or I knew that there was a purpose to be had, and that I was seeking it. , I grew up in a really overly religious household, so I was really opposed to, , you know, strict religious stuff, you know, only because I saw that it was really hurtful and to me, especially, , but with Buddhism, it was two things. [00:20:36] Christopher Branscombe: It wasn't a religion. It was philosophy. So that was a little bit of a decompression thing. And they had incense. I really wanted some incense. So I went in and I was like, Hey, you know, that's, that was the main motivator right there. It was some incense. So, you know, there was no incense available that got me started. [00:20:51] Christopher Branscombe: And, you know, it turned into a really fruitful practice. [00:20:54] Charna Cassell: That's what's so funny. I have to share this with you. So my dad was actually in prison for a good portion of my life and I visited him. In Nevada and in Denver, he was in different prisons and, , you know, he was Buddhist before I was ever around identified as that. [00:21:12] Charna Cassell: But then in prison, if you say that, you know, you get like the little I remember him being like, I get a little can. Of, you know, shrimp or something. There was like some special food thing because of his red string that he wore, you know, that he would get. So it's like the, the perks of being Buddhist in prison. [00:21:29] Christopher Branscombe: Yeah. Well, I, I found it to be an amazing community for me because it was very integrated and in prison, at least in California, it's very racially divided. So I went into that space and there's every ethnicity in there, which was a new idea for me as a kid. And, and the, the tenants that this lady, you know, there's the sangha teacher that we had was a, was a lady, and she really pushed you to, to challenge your limits. [00:21:59] Christopher Branscombe: You know, I remember in the very beginning, you know, she goes, what's, what do you think is something that It's just unforgivable. Somebody cannot come back from, right? And I go, oh, I got you something right now, right? And I go, okay, this is, I got it in my mind. And she goes, well, what is it? And I said, pedophile. [00:22:14] Christopher Branscombe: I said, you know, in here, you know, straight across the board, totally unforgivable. They could be dead. We don't care. And she goes, okay. I want you to find a reason to have compassion for that person, right? And she says, I just want you to meditate on it. And it was kind of like a Kohan. Every week we'd come back and visit it, and I'd be like, still haven't figured it out yet, right? [00:22:34] Christopher Branscombe: And so for three months, I come in and out, and she finally goes, okay, well, let's, let's work this out a little bit deeper. So maybe this will get you a lead on it. Cause I was really falling flat on it. She says, okay, so if a child came up to you and you were, you know, It was crying and it had been molested by its father. [00:22:54] Christopher Branscombe: You know, what would you do with that child? I said, God, I'd sweep it up and hold it and probably kick the father's ass, you know, like what the hell, you know, like, why would I, you know, that, I mean, it would deeply impact me. And she says, well, why do you want to kill him 20 years later? And I was like, well, I don't know. [00:23:11] Christopher Branscombe: You know, like it really kind of like stumped me at the time and it was the beginning of me understanding that trauma is a trauma reenactment and that everybody's included in this cycle and that it's a lot of the times the shame that we hold isn't for the act that was committed. It's how we responded to the act [00:23:31] Christopher Branscombe: Coped with how we coped with that, right? [00:23:34] Christopher Branscombe: So, you know, somebody might be raped and they become lascivious. They might be ashamed that they're lascivious, not that they were raped. You know, they might be, you know, like we cope with things in ways that we have to, to survive. And honestly, the most trauma that I see is, at least as far as shame is concerned, is how we cope with something at eight, nine, 10 years old and carry into our adulthood and never revisit because it's the only way we know how to cope with something that we can't look at or feel again. [00:24:04] Charna Cassell: Can you, I want you to say it again, because I think what you just said is so important. I want it to be emphasized and underlined. [00:24:17] Christopher Branscombe: The part about shame, like trauma reenactment. [00:24:20] Charna Cassell: The part that you were saying about, , it's the coping strategy. [00:24:27] Christopher Branscombe: Yeah, it is the coping strategy. [00:24:29] Christopher Branscombe: That's where we hold our deepest shame is not in what happened to us, but how we respond to it. And like I said, a lot of times those coping mechanisms come from a very young child and they get locked into that space. And so we're oftentimes dealing with a lot of cognitive dissonance. We're saying, I know this is wrong, but I have this compulsion to do this. [00:24:51] Christopher Branscombe: And that ends up ruling out because it's a survival function. So for the person That's coping with their shame. A lot of the time we can go to the, the origin of the trauma that isn't nearly as impactful as going, how did you cope with it and really acknowledging how you coped with it and what those, those feelings and needs were. [00:25:12] Christopher Branscombe: That is very, that's much more impactful in the healing process. [00:25:16] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that core belief that so often accompanies not just child sexual abuse, but other forms of Child abuse of the stories, you know, because kids have these black and white thinking minds and then trauma adds another layer of black and white thinking, and we're trying to make sense of like, why did this happen to me. [00:25:39] Charna Cassell: Right, so there's that often there's the self blame there's there can also be the external blame, but this piece of like, I must be bad in some way. You know, and I of course live with my I have my own version of. Of this experience in this story, and I sit with clients, , on a daily basis, and I was struck this past week with by a conversation with a client who, was there was something happening at work and hadn't obviously nothing to do with that. [00:26:09] Charna Cassell: I know her history and there's there's child sexual abuse and assault and different things. , And anytime we're faced with powerlessness in present time. There is a wash of like the, the moment where you've been the most powerless, like all the feelings and beliefs that you have about yourself that were a way, again, even the thinking is a way to cope with that situation, right? [00:26:36] Charna Cassell: If I just tell myself I'm bad, I'll feel like I have a little control and I can make sense of what happened to me, right? And so just, it was like, it was. , it touched into my own, you know, my own tenderness sitting with her and her, the amount of shame that she felt around this, this, you know, benign situation that was obviously not her fault, right? [00:26:59] Charna Cassell: It's just like a work workplace thing. So, yeah, it's, it's a lot, you know, if you don't have that understanding and you don't have a, you don't have guides or community support to reflect that you're not alone in this experience. [00:27:12] Christopher Branscombe: And, and not, and bad usually equates to worthless, right? So it's not [00:27:18] Charna Cassell: absolutely [00:27:19] Christopher Branscombe: not just like, I'm not good. [00:27:21] Christopher Branscombe: You know, like we do things that aren't good, but the, the one feeling right underneath that is. I'm not worthy of it. A lot of people stop short with that feeling like, Oh, why don't you go on a date with this, but I'm not worthy of that person. Or why don't you go for this job? You know, I don't want to fail at that. [00:27:37] Christopher Branscombe: I mean, they don't, they have plenty to have hundreds of other people more qualified than me. You know, there's this constant narrative in ourselves that's guiding us. Right back into the fire because not only are we isolating ourselves, but the only thing that we relate to is our trauma. That's the thing that we're friends with. [00:27:54] Christopher Branscombe: That's the things that we actually feel comfort with. It's the devil you know, you know, and so it's the thing that we sit in with comfort, even though it's completely adverse to our well being. [00:28:04] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And, and you see much of, I'm, I'm imagining, you know, there's a mix, but when you were working with people doing a men's work, the, why did this ha even when there are people who've offended in extreme ways, like, you know, in violent ways, the, why did this happen to me story, like moving, moving from a victim story to, , being more empowered and taking accountability. [00:28:28] Charna Cassell: Absolutely. [00:28:29] Christopher Branscombe: You know, there's it's it's a subtle shift in the psychology of both people because a lot of times the trauma is so Personalized when you pass it on that it's almost identical to what was done, right? So like it's it mirrors it so closely because it is this pathogen a social pathogen if you will it it has to carry out in this pattern and you can almost trace it back like A lineage and a lot of times what we're really trying to do is break that foothold inside of us You To where we can really, , see it outside of our ownership, you know, like where we're projecting this, this happening into our lives and trying to manifest it in this strange way, because we don't know anything else. [00:29:14] Christopher Branscombe: We haven't allowed ourselves a new experience or something that gives us a different feeling or a different context for the information coming in. [00:29:22] Charna Cassell: And I know that a lot of the work that you do and that you care deeply about is about self responsibility and taking accountability, right? Like, you know, what, what allowed this scene to unfold this morning in the courtroom. [00:29:37] Charna Cassell: What do you think, I mean, you, you, if you want to share a personal anecdote, you can do that, but to make it more concrete for people, it's like, what do you think needs to be in place for that shift to occur? Like, what are some, what are some steps [00:29:54] Christopher Branscombe: You know, it's Every person's key is different. [00:29:57] Christopher Branscombe: And I guess that's the joy of coaching people is like being curious and knowing they actually have the answers and, and getting them into a space to where they're asking the right questions and getting their own answers type thing. Because I think we naturally avoid, uh, the things that unlock that for us because unlocking it means we get to feel it, you know, I, and I think that overall the biggest contribution that I've seen to people being willing to transform is being candid. [00:30:25] Christopher Branscombe: When I go into a group and I share my sexual abuse as a child or I shared the ugliness of the feelings that I had and what I did with these things and how, , overwhelmed I was even later into my thirties, just, just not, you know, how I developed. These this thinking and how I justified the harm that I caused what those things did, you know, like for people to it's it's the just being really transparent about the journey of healing, I think, gives people a lot more courage or opportunities to see the first of all, the potential is there. [00:31:03] Christopher Branscombe: For transformation, but it also allows them the permission to feel what they're feeling. Because if you go, Oh, I really actually took joy in this person's pain. Okay. It was schadenfreude. Like you're, Oh, you're a bad person. But if I say, you know what? Some people, when they're feeling this way, they take joy in somebody else's pain and they go, Oh, so I'm not alone in this. [00:31:24] Christopher Branscombe: Okay. So now you're one step closer to me, right? Okay. Well, you know, I also noticed that when I did this, I was actually doing that and they're like, Oh shit, that's me too. You know? All right. So. you know, and you keep inching them towards that line and all of a sudden there's a moment of accountability, even if it's small, it says, maybe I contributed to this. [00:31:41] Christopher Branscombe: Maybe I, maybe I need to look no further than right where I'm sitting, you know, like, here it is, you know, this is what I need to cope with is me. And, and that's the, you know, that's the epiphany for me when I get them into that space where they're actually sitting in the seat with me because trauma is very interesting in the sense that I can see trauma a million miles away because you're just not present. [00:32:03] Christopher Branscombe: Either you're in a past moment. Or you're thinking to a future moment, [00:32:07] Christopher Branscombe: but [00:32:07] Christopher Branscombe: you're never in this moment. So, you know, you're untraumatized when you can sit right here, listen in real time, get real information, not distorted by the past or what you expect in the future, but actually being present. That's being free of trauma. [00:32:23] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. Something else that you pointed to, , had me think about a client that I worked with years ago. Where, where I, who helped me see the value of being very transparent. I already think I'm a more transparent, I, I'm trained as a coach as well as a psychotherapist. And, , you know, and, and certain psychotherapy is trained. [00:32:47] Charna Cassell: It's like, you know, the, the, the, the wall, the tabula rasa. And I've never bought into that. , but this particular client, , you know, women empower definitely. He. projected stuff onto where, , in order to feel powerful, he needed to hold a certain stance and he needed to not share and not be vulnerable, right? [00:33:11] Charna Cassell: And so for me, leveling the playing field, sharing, sharing more transparently about my own abuse, that, and among other things, like somatically working with how we sat in relation to one another in the space, , allowed him to start to come forward and open up in a very different way. So I think it's important for whether you're a coach, whether you're a psychotherapist and you know, and it's different. [00:33:36] Charna Cassell: I dial the knob of transparency, depending on who I'm working with. Some people can't tolerate knowing anything and other people that's the way they feel connected and they feel like they're not alone. Right. And I think it's a disservice to, to be blank, you know, to not be vulnerable and not model that. [00:33:54] Christopher Branscombe: Well, I think a big part of the way that I coach anyway is, is transparency and, and acceptance. You know, I think that that is, is the hugest thing that you can give to somebody who's going, okay. Uh, I tell people all the time, like my form of amends, the amends that I give is I will listen to people that other people can't listen to, not because they don't want to, but because they can't handle the information. [00:34:21] Christopher Branscombe: It's too overwhelming. So for me, I can sit in that space. I've had to heal some really ugly stuff. And for me to sit down and hear something that might not be my experience and go down, that's some dark stuff. But that needed to be shared and it's okay and it's actually understandable. Let's figure it out stepping into that in in a real truthful way, you know not being judgmental and understanding that everything is the product of this process and this cycle and It's as ugly as it needs to be to be healed You know to really know that well, they sense it They know that this is their opportunity to to get it out and out of their body and out of their chest And to know that okay, at least i'm not the only one carrying this load anymore And it's usually such a relief. [00:35:10] Christopher Branscombe: I call it burp in the bag It's bad prison wine term, but like it's just where you release a little air out. It's still there It's still culminating, but you're just burping the bag a little bit. It's it's healthy because it's the first step But it isn't by far the only step. And so a lot of times they'll do this periodically to keep nursing this injury, but my job is to get down there and stop this from culminating or producing this tension. [00:35:35] Christopher Branscombe: Right. And so that's what I call editing is when you feel something and you either present differently, or you use an exorbitant amount of energy to cope with this to function. And editing to me is this really toxic thing that we often fall into. Because we don't go to the final stage of actually transforming this understanding into usable knowledge. [00:35:58] Christopher Branscombe: You have to be able to transform it into an understanding that this is part of who you are. And it isn't something in the past, it's right now. It's in you. It's what made you so amazing. Or this is what, to transform that into an idea. And something recently that I'm really realizing too, is that it's also about a new experience, because if you have an idea, you have to, it's, it's just like fire, you can say, Hey, fire's hot. [00:36:27] Christopher Branscombe: Don't touch it. Don't do that. You're like, okay, that looks neat. And what I promise you touch it. You're for the rest of your life. You're like, Oh, that's hot. Don't touch it. Right. Well, it's the same thing with joy. or kindness or love or acceptance, the things that you don't think you deserve or can have, you step out of that and you have an experience that changes your ethos that says you don't deserve it. [00:36:51] Christopher Branscombe: You now go from an idea of knowing that you should deserve that to feeling like you deserve it, right? And there's a huge leap in that as far as the healing process goes. [00:37:00] Charna Cassell: What that to me, the language I use around it is that you're moving from knowledge to embodied wisdom and that what it takes and I often it's like through physical practices I'd use martial arts based practices to rewire the brain through the body or I do body work with clients and you know when you're when you don't have any access like your legs are all numb. [00:37:23] Charna Cassell: But then you start to understand. It's like, Oh, if I if I could feel my legs, what would be possible? I'd be able to run. I'd be able to kick. I defend myself. Take a stand for something. Move towards what I want, like all the things that become possible. And then when you do bodywork and you bring more aliveness into those legs and suddenly it's like, Oh, I could also jump on a trampoline and feel joy. [00:37:46] Charna Cassell: I could do, you know, like all things, all the new possibilities because of a new physical imprint in the body and a felt experience. So it's like, until you actually move through the emotions or move through the physical experience and it becomes a visceral memory to replace and override that trauma neural pathway, You know, you just keep running the same old neural pathways and telling the same story because it's all you know. [00:38:12] Charna Cassell: You don't, you don't even realize something else is possible. [00:38:16] Christopher Branscombe: Well, it's somatic, right? You're like, Oh, I'm angry. You're not in control of your, you're like, you just feel things, right. Or you're like, I am sweating or I'm overwhelmed or anxiety. Anxiety is a big one too. So like, you know, you step into that space and it's like, you're having an experience that's completely out of your control, except for the fact that you can reframe it. [00:38:32] Christopher Branscombe: And I'll give you a really powerful moment that I had with that, which is when Gunnar and I had our victim offender dialogue. Every year, he would wake up December 20th, the day I committed the crime, and he would have night terrors. He would have physical, just sweating, I mean it was really intense for him. [00:38:52] Christopher Branscombe: After we had our VOD, he never had one again. The body changes the way that it interacts with something through an experience. We had a connection and that changed his biology. You know, it can affect you so deeply when they took when they gave me a life sentence it changed my body When they took it off it changed my body You know an idea can rule your body It is a very powerful thing to have something like that ingrained in your subconscious or in your deepest thoughts So to really reframe something and have a new experience Absolutely is the most transformative thing you can do in the process but getting there you have to first become aware so First you're not aware of your body because you're numb then you realize oh my body is doing something I have tension or I hold my breath or I sweat or whatever. [00:39:42] Christopher Branscombe: However, that body copes with these things Then there's the emotional awareness. Oh, I have these things going on I'm actually feeling this when I didn't feel anything at all for the longest, you know, and then it's like These are my thoughts attached to all of these things I didn't know were connected. [00:39:57] Christopher Branscombe: And so you're thinking about for us, it was criminal thinking or the trauma cycle, or how you justify the things that you do. So you get into your own head. And usually that's where people stop. They share it, they get it, and they burp the bed. You know, they just let a little air out, let a little air out, let a little air out. [00:40:12] Christopher Branscombe: And then, and they're maintaining, but they're editing. And it takes so much energy to be upset and to hold it in. Or, oh, this person said something, they're really trying to disrespect me. It's not happening, but. This is what I'm living with, you know, so you're in your own little groundhog's day, you know, you're just torturing yourself every day a little bit trying to get through this day until you actually get the groundhog out of the hole. [00:40:33] Christopher Branscombe: It's like, all right, now, now we're going to look at this sucker and you know what, I'm going to pet it. I'm going to love it. I'm going to hold it in my arm. This thing's my friend. Now, now there's no more groundhog day. [00:40:41] Charna Cassell: Yeah, this, [00:40:42] Christopher Branscombe: this is part of you, you know, and now I have a new experience relating to this idea. [00:40:47] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And that last piece of like, The groundhog. I'm picturing, you know, uh, 20 years ago, I had disdain. I couldn't. Tolerate the whole like, hold the stuffed animal and pretend it's a little part of you, you know, I was like, no, I don't want to do that, you know, it's like inner child work. I've kind of like vomit a little in my mouth. [00:41:07] Charna Cassell: And the reality is you can't heal trauma without working with all these different parts of yourself and learning to accept even the vulnerable youngest, . And dare I say powerless parts, right? And that, but it was great. It's like a little, a little bit removed when you picture it's the groundhog. It's like, can you, can you all, can you all hold the groundhog? [00:41:29] Christopher Branscombe: It's a lonely [00:41:30] Christopher Branscombe: groundhog, you know, it wants light too. So [00:41:34] Charna Cassell: I was at a, , I was at a 10 day silent meditation retreat at spirit rock. , many years ago. And then you would meet like twice during those 10 days, and have a little Dharma talk with a teacher and you'd share just, you know, a couple of minutes, like a couple of minutes of talking in all this sea of silence. [00:41:54] Charna Cassell: And one of the women in the group, so she's like, so this is what I find that I'm thinking a lot about. She's a gardener, landscaper. And she's like, I think about killing gophers. And I remember, it's like, Oh my God, this is amazing. And only. However, 10 years later, having a garden and having this like war with gophers and slugs and snails. [00:42:16] Charna Cassell: And I'm like, Oh, the pleasure I take. And it's like, I'm not holding this, although I have moments of being in love with the snails. I'm also like killing, killing the snails. [00:42:28] Christopher Branscombe: every ecosystem has its balance and you know, it's good to, to revere the balance. Otherwise you'll be great. [00:42:34] Christopher Branscombe: Ungrateful. [00:42:35] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:36] Christopher Branscombe: I think that the absolutes are a great thing to avoid, and that's a prime example of absolutes. If you say, hey, you can't kill anything. Well, you're probably not going to have a good garden. Now, if you balance it out and say, hey, this is kind of like, I always see the most, the best version of life really relating more to harmony. [00:42:52] Christopher Branscombe: And I think that the Dharma talks a lot about that. It's not what, if you're actually in this moment and just experiencing it, there's no right or wrong. There's no, you know, concepts of, you know, maliciousness or this, it's just the way that things are. And if you can be in that space in a real way, life is so gratifying because the most amazing things happen in that space. [00:43:17] Christopher Branscombe: I mean, truly amazing things that normally would be prohibited. Due to anticipation, right? So [00:43:24] Christopher Branscombe: if [00:43:24] Christopher Branscombe: you, if you can find that curiosity, almost that childlike, , you know, reverie for life and going like, Hey, I've walked out this door a hundred times, but what's under the mat, what's over here, you know, like just seeking, you know, exploring, you know, and being that. [00:43:39] Christopher Branscombe: That person I find that, , life is just such an amazing experience when we can, when we can hold that space. It really is. And I don't think we can hold that space when we're defensive or afraid or overwhelmed or alone. You know, I, I think that a lot of those things are prohibited, you know, in that space. [00:43:58] Charna Cassell: Yeah, no, it goes from, it goes from wonder. Instead, it goes to paranoia. You know, if you're in fear and gripping. Yeah. So I found myself wondering about your own story, , and your connection to the man who molested you. For a long time as a kid and wondered if you reached out to him and if there's been any kind of like accountability on his part, and so that's the first part of the question. [00:44:29] Charna Cassell: The second part of the question is like, so when the person who's harmed you, you know, sociopath, never going to take accountability because so much of that transformative moment that you described with with Gunnar and how it shifts in the body is that that there's acknowledgement that Right. And, and so when that isn't going to happen, then what? [00:44:53] Christopher Branscombe: Well, you know, there's, I, I actually did look for, so there was such an age gap there. I was eight or nine when I was molested. He was almost 18. Uh, , he almost got charged in the adult court when they found out. He ended up doing a few months in juvie and getting out, but like, he was much, much older than me. [00:45:14] Christopher Branscombe: And I carried that terror of him long before I realized he was gone. I mean, he had moved away or wherever he slopped up to, but like he was living at his parents house and doing all this stuff. And it was clear with his parents that they already knew that this was something that had happened, You know, I, I would be willing to, to do that. I don't feel like it has been necessary for me and my healing process. But out of pure curiosity, I would probably just do it just to see what popped up, you know, cause I've, you know, if, if it entered my path, definitely jump on it, you know, like anything that comes into my path, I. [00:45:47] Christopher Branscombe: I take it as a wink from the universe. Like it's time you let's do this, you know? So I take it as a challenge, whether it's uncomfortable or not, but, , I would be willing for that. And I would be surprised if he was alive just because he was just so. Hurt as a, as a child, you know, to be the person he was when I met him and to be where he was at, he must have been severely traumatized by his father or somebody in the household because he was just too cultivated and refined in his, his approach, you know, at that age to be doing it, you know, so. [00:46:23] Christopher Branscombe: Looking back, I kind of hold sympathy for the dude in a weird way. Like, he must have really suffered a lot to be the person he was, you know. And so, um, and to the second half of the question that you're talking about, I find that when you really see what trauma reenactment is, what you've inherited, what you did with it, Just as I do right now, I project it back and go, Oh, so this is where it came from, or this is where, you know, I might not have molested children, but I was, I was sexually active at a very young age. [00:46:56] Christopher Branscombe: You know, I did things that were very inappropriate for somebody. My, and so I look at that and I go, I wasn't intentionally hurting anybody, but I'm still bringing a sexual element to people my own age that don't know what sex is, you know, I'm passing this trauma on. I had misconceptions about what was. [00:47:15] Christopher Branscombe: acceptable or unacceptable or what was good for me or bad for me or like there was all of these things that I did in that space when I had to really own that and go like this is how I coped with my sexual trauma because I became sexualized I saw everything as sexual acceptance like this was me being a suitable you know lover or somebody like that was what I thought love was you know like up to that point I'd only been neglected my whole life I'd never really been loved loved And at that age that was the first time I felt acceptance and that was through being sexualized [00:47:48] Charna Cassell: Yeah, [00:47:49] Christopher Branscombe: so for for me, I I came to a point where i'm like, oh, this is what acceptance or love is is sex Right. [00:47:56] Christopher Branscombe: So for me, that was a huge misconception and obviously divorced any real meaningful connections in my life You know, but definitely got me into some trippy circles and things going on But it led me down a path that wasn't healthy for me. That's for sure [00:48:10] Christopher Branscombe: but [00:48:11] Christopher Branscombe: To heal from it, what I needed to do was accept it and understand that cycle. [00:48:16] Christopher Branscombe: And at some point compassion entered into it. And that's when I know when I'm working with somebody, if they actually are. Doing the deep dive as I call it or doing the heavy lifting because natural fruits come from it the desire to give Compassion, you know like these these human eyes these these this part of us that's really our best self starts to spring up every once in a while and it's like it's it's like it's so glaringly obvious when it happens with somebody that's Trapped because never once will you hear somebody that's ashamed of themselves say I I messed up. [00:48:51] Christopher Branscombe: It's always somebody else's fault Oh, they did this because Somebody that feels insecure and weak. They feel like they're reacting to something when nothing is being done to them. They're just very insecure. So there's this huge misconception in their thought process that this person is intentionally hurting me and I'm responding versus I'm just really insecure and I attack somebody for no reason. [00:49:14] Christopher Branscombe: Right. So there's this awareness that happens in the healing process where you go like, Oh, this has really been me most of the time, you know, like this is actually me. And, and in taking that responsibility, you feel extreme regret. And, and for the things you've done to people and realize that they were undeserving. [00:49:33] Christopher Branscombe: And, and in that process, you realize like this person did this to me under the same context. Yeah. [00:49:39] Christopher Branscombe: They had [00:49:39] Christopher Branscombe: just as much control over this trauma cycle as I did. It took me up to my mid 30s to really start coping and changing and being a different person. Well, this person was, you know, wasn't even 18 when he, when he hurt me, you know, so like to get into that space, forgiveness, compassion, these are the things that helped me cope with it. [00:49:59] Christopher Branscombe: And that's happened despite talking to him. Now, where I had to talk to him and he had some type of, you know, Insights that I was unaware of or like where did it come from in your life? You know the things that I gave to gunner is what I would want from him and to be honest with you That's how I gauged what I knew gunner would need I go. [00:50:16] Christopher Branscombe: What would it take for me to forgive this man? [00:50:18] Christopher Branscombe: What [00:50:19] Christopher Branscombe: would it take for me to go? Okay, I accept what you did And I held myself to my own standard [00:50:26] Christopher Branscombe: and then I [00:50:26] Christopher Branscombe: did that for gunner, you know, so that was actually how I measured what was necessary was through my own trauma. [00:50:33] Charna Cassell: I'm picturing people listening to this episode and I'm just really moved. [00:50:40] Charna Cassell: And I think that what you're doing is such is, is remarkable and it's such a gift. And I, you know, I'd wish this for, for everybody who's, you know, , been hurt by somebody and like the whole scale. So it's just, thank you. I just wanted to pause and say that I'm just really touched right now. [00:50:59] Christopher Branscombe: Well, I appreciate you creating in places like this where we can talk candidly and, , and really inviting a narrative like this. [00:51:06] Christopher Branscombe: I think that a lot of people are afraid to hold this kind of space and it's, it's something that. When, when we really feel it, it's just such a, you know, kind of like that lady today I watched in court, she was so overwhelmed making this leap of faith. I mean, like truly overwhelmed, but it was a survival function. [00:51:27] Christopher Branscombe: She, she was, it was done, you know, there was nothing left in the anger phase. So if you got five stages of coping, anger was done, you know, but that took 15 years. That's criminal. That's criminal to me. [00:51:40] Christopher Branscombe: And before she even got there, I was talking to, to my buddy's dad and I go, you know, I feel so bad for this lady that has to come and feel like she is being, her pain isn't valued by the system because they're not willing to punish anymore. [00:51:57] Christopher Branscombe: Mm-Hmm. . And I said, that's a fault of the system and us. She should know that we care. And more importantly, that, that there is a way out of this. Yeah, you know there there is a journey that can be taken that trans you're never going to not have the loss [00:52:12] Christopher Branscombe: but it transforms the loss into all of these amazing things that would never happen. [00:52:18] Christopher Branscombe: Otherwise ever you know and so [00:52:22] Charna Cassell: People [00:52:22] Christopher Branscombe: can't imagine what that looks like until they see gunner and I I stay it is how I mean it is People that find out that I was the one that tried to kill him at 19. They're like, what? You know, cause like, we are just like the thickest of friends. Like, I mean, we, we love each other. [00:52:38] Christopher Branscombe: I mean, I absolutely love that, bro. And he loves me. It's just this weird connection, you know, that. That develops because you're always going to be connected to the person that harms you. [00:52:47] Christopher Branscombe: Is it going to be a good connection or is it going to be a bad connection? That's what you need to resolve inside of yourself. What kind of connection you're going to have because it's not going away. [00:52:57] Charna Cassell: And a lot of people don't get the opportunity to, to change that connection with the actual person, right? [00:53:04] Charna Cassell: So many people, it's like, you just have to be, you know, I've done decades of forgiveness prayers, right? And then there's these layers you just keep excavating. It's like, Oh, okay. Here's the next cycle of healing the next cycle of forgiving the next cycle of rage, the next site that this emotion that I didn't fully feel. [00:53:24] Charna Cassell: Coming back to one of the things that you were talking about, it's the development of compassion. Right. And I think that I primarily work with, um, with people who've. Had the experience of of sexual assault in different ways or sexual trauma in different ways. Um, some people who are healing from shame around offending in a variety of ways, but exactly what you described in terms of the like the people that you're working with. [00:53:54] Charna Cassell: I feel like the same thing applies , And I don't really, a survivor is, I don't really like the word victim, but, these small steps that you take to accept what your needs are, to accept yourself, to be present with yourself, the, the by product is self compassion, right? And then the more compassion you have for yourself, the less shame you have internally, then the more you feel connected to the rest of the world and to other people. [00:54:20] Charna Cassell: Yeah. [00:54:20] Christopher Branscombe: It's, it's a, it's an interesting concept to realize that no one can forgive you. Only you can forgive you. And that's a real deeper understanding of the healing process is to know that you could forgive me a hundred times over. If, if I can't receive it, it doesn't land. I'm not healed. I'm not transformed. [00:54:41] Christopher Branscombe: And I could [00:54:41] Christopher Branscombe: forgive you a million times. If you don't feel worthy of that forgiveness. It's not going to land in a way that's actually going to heal you. At some point you have to realize and accept that the things that you did were probably the only response you had to what happened. I recently read a book by Robert Sapolsky called determined, and it was really powerful for me to read, you know, and it's challenging the idea of free will and stuff, which always gets people all kooky, but the end result of it at the end was. [00:55:12] Christopher Branscombe: You know, it was very powerful to say that if we take away responsibility, you can no longer judge someone. They're the result of their environment. The impetus actually lies on the community. The community bears the biggest responsibility because they're the result of their community. And so it takes away judgment and it also puts the impetus on present action, meaning the only change that we can actually receive is present. [00:55:43] Christopher Branscombe: Right now. And whatever block we put in the road is now on the road. But if we don't ever put it on the road, it doesn't exist. So if we keep that cycle going and never introduce something new, nothing changes. [00:55:56] Charna Cassell: Right. [00:55:57] Christopher Branscombe: So it's this really powerful idea. Anyway, that's a whole different subject, but I really love it. [00:56:02] Charna Cassell: You may have to come back and we can have that conversation. Just one other thing about that. It's it's, you know, there's these these trauma cycles. They can either be external or their internal. And if we keep going into a place of you know, not making a choice. to go in a different direction for ourselves, to not interrupt the story, to not allow ourselves to be free of the shame by, by actually learning new tools, then we're self perpetrating, you know, we're just perpetuating it internally. [00:56:36] Christopher Branscombe: So, so in the context that I was just sharing with that determined idea, so it's the same idea, but just a little different. So say that it's not a choice, it's an opportunity. So somebody, anybody. In a real opportunity to share it and get rid of it will do so In a non real opportunity, they won't so Your job or my job in the moment is to introduce the opportunity. [00:57:01] Charna Cassell: Yeah. [00:57:02] Christopher Branscombe: Cause they're going to take it. [00:57:04] Christopher Branscombe: They can't not take it because it's the only result that's necessary. Right. So they're calling for it. It will manifest. So, you know, it's, it's, it's really this idea that, you know, when we take that idea of culpability out of it and say like, there's no other way that you could have responded to this than what you knew. [00:57:22] Christopher Branscombe: We are the product of what we know and have experienced. And we play those things out. From a child, I look at an eight year old and I go, I built the ethos of my life off of that child's thinking. It's absolutely remarkable that I'm still alive or that I coped and I lived and it's, it's, it's something to take wonder in and to go, that child somehow knew how to navigate those ugly things that you were experiencing. [00:57:46] Christopher Branscombe: You should revere that child. You should have. You know, deep respect for that. Now, did it guide you the right way? No, but how could an eight year old child do anything else? Right. So it's like this, I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's weird. What, what seeps in afterwards, you know, you realize like, wow, you know, this, this kid survived all of this. [00:58:07] Christopher Branscombe: But it's amazing that any of it existed, right? Like, so I don't know. There's there's a lot of layers to it [00:58:12] Charna Cassell: Oh, oh So many, you know, i'm thinking about my meditation this morning and what came up there was Like just even in utero and birth trauma, right? Just like going all the way back there and what that little being that little premature baby fetus Did to cope and it set up a certain pattern You Uh, and certain strategy and story about weakness and story about survival. [00:58:41] Charna Cassell: Um, and so I was, you know, I was holding that tiny little being this morning. And, and being grateful for the strategies that that part of me chose, um, that, you know, that there's physical fallout as a result of that, you know, the way those belief systems and patterns then affect your physical health. [00:59:05] Charna Cassell: Right. . [00:59:06] Christopher Branscombe: Definitely. And one thing that it also takes besides judgment is it also takes away the idea that it takes away ego, because if you're the result of your environment, you didn't do it. You're not up here and somebody is down there. [00:59:21] Christopher Branscombe: That person would be you if they had your life. You know, so like there's this this way that really I I call it being humble or full of integrity or what? Everybody has different terms for it. I guess in buddhism. It would just be enlightenment But you know, it's just this idea that we're all so interconnected when we're available for it Even when we're not we're still interconnected. [00:59:44] Christopher Branscombe: It's just that that we're transmitting pain versus interconnection and You know The loss of it is so palpable that we always want, if you've ever tasted it, you always want more of it. And you would, it's what we're built to be and what we are is a sense of interconnection. And so, you know, when, when I look at people and their healing process and, and, and I watch their lives completely change just because they're available. [01:00:07] Christopher Branscombe: They don't, it's not that they're inviting anything new in. They're just not pushing it away. It's already there. Can they, can they embrace it? Can they hold it, you know, without feeling that they don't deserve it? You know, so the journey is really about everything. And I remember I used to tell myself this when I was in prison with Life Without the Possibility of Parole. [01:00:26] Christopher Branscombe: Everything I absolutely need for my journey, whatever that is, is present. It's all available to me right now. I just have to find it. I have to be open to it. I have to take the challenge. Like things would hit my chest or I'd be like, I have no idea why I feel like I should do this, but I'm going to do it, you know, and have a new experience, you know, and, and, and that leads to just the most surreal responses in our lives. [01:00:53] Charna Cassell: What it sounds like, you know, cause you didn't say this directly, but what it sounds like is you're. Listening to there's some somatic wisdom that's arising in you. Your body wants to move in a particular way. Some observer can think, Oh, my God, I'm crazy right now. Like, like, what am I doing? [01:01:10] Charna Cassell: But another part of you knows this is what you need to do to, to move that energy that's bound in your system out. Is that kind of what you're pointing to? [01:01:20] Christopher Branscombe: It's, it's absolutely that. I, I, through my studies of psychology and my own personal experiments, I've realized that the, the collective unconscious or the unconscious mind is so vast and seemingly abstract to our conscious reasoning because it's polarized, right? [01:01:36] Christopher Branscombe: The unconscious mind isn't polarized and it is, I think, more in tune with the flow of the universe or the way that things are actually transpiring and it is intimately connected. Um, And I look at it and I say, if I'm listening to that, it's not always going to make sense to me, but it's always guiding me in the right direction. [01:01:53] Christopher Branscombe: So I follow it, whether it makes sense or not, because I know that it has my purpose in store. So, and it, and I mean, miraculous things. I mean, when I say miraculous, I mean, time and time again, it's just like, it's so ridiculous how much comes from that space, you know? So it's not so much a belief as a knowing now I just go, yep, that's. [01:02:14] Christopher Branscombe: My journey and I encourage other people to explore it and see what they find, you know, [01:02:19] Charna Cassell: absolutely. I would love, , to continue just this particular conversation, you know, and I I had a home invasion in January and holding it like, instead of this happened to me, this happened for me, talking back, circling back to opportunity and knowing that this experience was an opportunity for me to feel through and move through another layer of, you know, PTSD. [01:02:47] Charna Cassell: Cause it brought up childhood stuff while I'm creating a course about self regulation. Yeah. Right? And it's like perfect. It was like, I'm, I'm in it, full trauma response, observer, being able to watch like how and how crazy, how it feels like it controls and it feels true, your perception of everything and everyone and observing the nervous system, like being in it and observing it all at the same time, but also trusting that there's ultimately some kind of piece of healing and wisdom that's coming from this. [01:03:23] Charna Cassell: insane situation that I could just write off as like Oakland crime, but no, I, I hold it really differently. [01:03:31] Christopher Branscombe: Yeah. That's a powerful way to become empowered and to develop resilience and to do all of the things that I think we all admire and respect in people is that ability to transform things that are meant to destroy us. [01:03:45] Christopher Branscombe: Into things that give us purpose well being and meaning right and and it is always a challenge it is it's um to me when something is off putting to me it gets my full attention because I'm, not up put very often and to me That's the next call to action because that's the only thing that can prevent me from being in that place of peace and well being So I look at and I go But through pure curiosity much as you were just describing really well is like i'm feeling this You This isn't me. [01:04:15] Christopher Branscombe: This is my experience, but this isn't me. What do I see in this? Feel it, experience it, get it in my body, get it in my mind. Because if you can see it, you can transform it. If you can feel it, you can transform it. But if you don't do those things, You're just going to live with it. However, it is set. Right. [01:04:35] Christopher Branscombe: And so that ability to have the courage to look to experience and to rely upon the resources we've created community conversations like this, being inspired by what's happening in our lives, our past, you know, just saying, like, we've been through a lot. We can be through a lot more and it only gets better, [01:04:55] Christopher Branscombe: right? [01:04:56] Christopher Branscombe: It only [01:04:56] Christopher Branscombe: gets better. [01:04:58] Charna Cassell: And I, I like to ask people about freedom and what their definition of freedom is. And I feel like you just answered it, but is there anything else you'd add? [01:05:08] Christopher Branscombe: , I would say that is, that to me is freedom is to me, freedom is interconnection. It's that idea that. We're the most free when we have the ability to let go of our expectations and really have the experience that's happening at any given time. [01:05:28] Christopher Branscombe: And I would say those moments are the most liberating, the most refreshing, the most, um, you know, inspiring moments of our lives or when we're in that space. [01:05:39] Charna Cassell: Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like we could keep going. [01:05:45] Charna Cassell: I [01:05:46] Christopher Branscombe: know we could go on for hours. I could tell we could talk for hours, whether we're on this or not, but I'm totally open to talking privately or on here. [01:05:53] Christopher Branscombe: I love this space and I appreciate you. [01:05:56] Charna Cassell: I Absolutely. So, anything else, like how can people find you? Cause I could already imagine, you know, people that I would refer to work with you. If people want to know more and want to work with you, how can they do that? [01:06:10] Christopher Branscombe: Well, I have a website. it's just barebonescoaching. [01:06:12] Christopher Branscombe: com. Or you can look up my, my name, Christian Branscombe. com. Both of them lead you to the same site. And, you know, they have a Calendly account on there where you can sign up for a, uh, a free half hour, just a interview, or you want to talk about what's going on or see if the work I do fits for you, you know, that's kind of where I do that type of work. [01:06:32] Christopher Branscombe: And then otherwise I, you know, I kind of do stuff like this. I just run around and talk to people and have new experiences and I'm always open Projects and what people are doing, especially if it's, , community based, you know, trying to give people good direction or I'm always up for at the least advice. [01:06:50] Christopher Branscombe: And if I can get engaged, , I love being a part of things like that. So I'm always available. [01:06:53] Charna Cassell: Thank you for joining us. If you appreciated this episode, please like, rate, review, and share it with your friends. I'd really appreciate that. And if you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at Laid Open Podcast. That's L A I D O P E N P O D C A S T. All one word, as well as if you go to charnacacell. [01:07:17] Charna Cassell: com, you can join my newsletter where you can get information about upcoming courses, as well as discounts and resources that I share in my newsletter. And if you go to passionatelife. org, you can get more information about my private practice and the kind of work that I do. This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host, Charna Cassell. [01:07:39] Charna Cassell: We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Until next time.