Show Notes
Brett Chamberlin Interview
[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Welcome back, friends. I love that you're spending your precious time with me. Today's guest is Brett Chamberlain. He's the founder and executive director of OPEN, which is the organization for polyamory and ethical nonmonogamy. Welcome, Brett.
[00:00:19] Learn how to live, embody. Your life is about to unwind. Cover your tools and start healing Leave trauma intention you your desires come true How can you live laid open?
[00:01:04] Brett Chamberlin: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with
[00:01:07] Charna Cassell: Yeah. I've been looking forward to this conversation.
[00:01:09] Charna Cassell: So you have over a decade of movement building experience that started in the environmental movement, And I'm curious what precipitated your shift towards building cultural acceptance awareness and legal rights for nonmonogamy.
[00:01:25] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. I always love starting with a personal story because, of course, this work is so personal for so many of us. It's a deeply relational field.
[00:01:33] Brett Chamberlin: So my backstory is that I've been doing organizing and activism for really my whole life, starting with anti war work in my home state of New Hampshire and in college progressing a little bit more into the economic justice field. I was in New York City as a student when Occupy Wall Street was going on, so I had the opportunity to be at the front lines of that movement. And then after graduating university, I cofounded my first nonprofit, which was an environmental nonprofit focusing on supporting student led 0 waste initiatives in college campuses. And that's really where my career continued for the next 10 years or so, was in the environmental nonprofit sector. That's the work that brought me out to the Bay Area where I moved in 2016.
[00:02:12] Brett Chamberlin: But it was when I moved to the Bay Area, surprise surprise, a typical story, I got more involved in the the polyamory and the sex positive communities here in the Bay Area, and it was transformative for me. I started to experience not just really deep personal growth, a depth of community that I had so long been really thirsting for. But I was also surprised to find in looking at this space through the political lens that I can't help but hold up to every space that I'm involved in to really uncover and start to unpack the long underserved political implications of nonmonogamy and of sex positivity. So, for example, I was surprised to find out how many of my friends, even here in progressive areas like the Bay Area, were not able to be open about their nonmonogamous identity because they were afraid of losing their job, for example, or of being denied housing or facing other all too common experiences of stigma and discrimination. And I felt like there was an opportunity to do some organizing in this space.
[00:03:18] Brett Chamberlin: Now there are lots of phenomenal advocates and organizers that have been really doing incredible work in the non monogamy space for many decades, and we we really stand on their shoulders. We stand on the shoulders of giants. It felt like there was an opportunity to do something more. So in conversation with a range of mentors and advisers and fellow advocates, made the decision to ultimately quit my position, leave behind my salary and my health care, and in the beginning of 20 22, started putting together the pieces for OPEN, the Organization for Polyamory and Ethical Nonmonogamy. And we are just now 18 months old.
[00:03:51] Brett Chamberlin: So we're still a young organization, but I'm really excited by the work that we've been able to do. And I'm also very keenly aware that we're really just at the beginning of what I think is gonna be a deeply transformative phase for the nonmonogamy movement as the momentum just is really, really mounting here.
[00:04:09] Charna Cassell: That's a courageous move, you know, to to to walk away from the security of a position that is familiar and you know how to navigate and to be at the very beginning of a of a movement, you know, to be basically 1 of the founders.
[00:04:25] Brett Chamberlin: It was A bit of a roll of the dice. Uh, You know, I also wanna recognize the privilege too that I'm able to bring that holds privileged identities, right, as a as a white cisgendered male. You know, I had a degree of security that allowed me to to take a bit of that leap and also benefited enormously from being in a space geographically and culturally and socially, where I have people that have incredible experience that they could bring to the board of directors, where we have access to a lot of wealth in the Bay Area through the tech sector, people that could really support this work.
[00:04:56] Brett Chamberlin: So, yes, it certainly was a bit of a roll of the dice, and I also wanna acknowledge that I'm someone that was uniquely positioned to take advantage of that. And I think, you know, generally speaking, the people that have privileged identities or have these types of opportunities, my opinion, have have an obligation to really leverage them. And so I'm very grateful to be in a position to have been able to do so.
[00:05:15] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:05:15] Charna Cassell: I appreciate you saying all of that because it was it was a question that arose for me. I was like, wow. How does that get funded? Especially given the stigmas and the things that you're, you know, you're looking at wanting to create legislation and change laws and anti discrimination laws and and, you know, establishing a precedent. And so I I'd be curious to hear more about that as well,
[00:05:38] Brett Chamberlin: Well, let me first unpack, yeah, a bit about our theory of change.
[00:05:41] Brett Chamberlin: So this really is threefold. So it starts with changing the perception of the non monogamous community. Right? So this is cultural awareness. It's about pushing back against myths and stigmas.
[00:05:52] Brett Chamberlin: It's about holding up more affirming depictions of healthy nonmonogamous families and relationships and really bringing visibility to the space, of course, because people, really, for all minority identities, such as nonmonogamy, polyamory specifically and other forms of nonmonogamy, people don't trust and have trouble accepting what they don't understand. So if we can help people see that non monogamous folks are just like them, they're your neighbors, they're your coworkers, they're in your faith community, they're members of your family, they can really help demystify this and help people wrap their head around it and accept these identities. So that's the perception element. The second is what we call the practice. Right?
[00:06:32] Brett Chamberlin: So this is effectively helping people do nonmonogamy more effectively, more skillfully, and experience positive outcomes. So it's about creating opportunities for people to learn, connect. It's about providing resources that help people navigate complex systems that are designed for mon monogamous, typically, spousal relationships and really just move through the world in relationship and family structures in a world that's not not often designed for us. So that's perception, and that's the practice. And then the third, which is really where the rubber meets the road, is power.
[00:07:05] Brett Chamberlin: So this is about building the power and the capacity of the nonmonogamy movement to make the changes in the world that we so need, to create more space for us to live, right, for us to build families and relationships that bring so much joy and connection to to so many of our lives and yet are still so often on the outside of of our culture and society. So within this power bucket, there's really 2 main interventions. The first is what we call our open workplaces initiative. So this is an effort to advance acceptance and inclusion for non monogamous professionals in the workplace. Alright.
[00:07:40] Brett Chamberlin: And the idea here is that we spend a lot of our lives at work, and yet it's a space where people often feel they're most constricted from showing up as their full selves from being open about their nonmonogamous identities. These experiences are extremely common. It's, again, not uncommon for people to lose clients or even be fired from their job on the basis of their nonmonogamous identity. And because nonmonogamy or relationship structure generally is not a protected category, it is totally legal to fire somebody just for the structure of their private intimate relationships. So that's our open workplaces initiative which folks can learn more about at open dash love dot org slash open workplaces. Then the second component of our power strategy is our legislative advocacy. So our main intervention right now focuses on advancing nondiscrimination protections on the basis of family and relationship structure. So the relationship structure element introduces protections for nonmonotonous families and relationships. It also reinforces existing protections for LGBTQIA plus folks. And then the family structure element of the that law, in addition to, again, reinforcing those protections for non monogamous families, also brings in a range of other alternative family structures in outside of the conventional, quote, unquote, conventional nuclear family, a married parent, their biological children.
[00:09:03] Brett Chamberlin: So it expands those productions to include multigenerational families, blended families, I. E. Step parents and step kids from multiple marriages, single parents by choice. It helps build a bigger coalition and recognize and protect not just the way that people are constructing their relationships, but also constructing their families, which goes hand in hand with that.
[00:09:22] Charna Cassell: Yeah. There aren't that many people that have this just very straightforward conventional, like, you're still married. Your parents are still together. It's like, I have a half sister.
[00:09:31] Charna Cassell: I have ex step siblings, etcetera. And then when you think about how you know, what are the what are the laws in place? What are whether you're visiting someone in a hospital, whether you're, you know, you have health care, all those things, like, how how complicated that gets and how limited our laws are.
[00:09:50] Brett Chamberlin: Exactly.
[00:09:51] Brett Chamberlin: It's less than 1 in 5 households in the United States fit the model of, again, in big air quotes conventional because, of course, as as you're hearing, it always was a minority structure, but of the the sort of traditional again, big air quotes nuclear family. Right? So that is married parents with, you know, their own biological children. So it's that's the huge minority. The the most the majority of people in America are living by themselves or with multi generations under 1 roof or with multiple, you know, kids from different partnerships or in multiparent or multipartner households.
[00:10:37] Brett Chamberlin: Employment, It's inheritance. It's custody. It's immigration. It's a taxation visitation, family and medical leave. It's a whole slew of benefits that are just denied to people that are in multi partner relationships or or frankly are living on their own.
[00:10:53] Charna Cassell: Right.
[00:10:54] Charna Cassell: Yeah. It's I I read on your website, only 18 percent of families fit the traditional role of 2 married parents. Oh,, Your website said, so research indicates that 10000000 Americans currently practice nonmonogamy, and I was really curious about how the info was being gathered.
[00:11:13] Brett Chamberlin: Yes. Yeah. And it's probably more than that. So
[00:11:16] Charna Cassell: I'm sure.
[00:11:18] Brett Chamberlin: yeah.
[00:11:18] Brett Chamberlin: I mean, that's that's a conservative estimate. And, frankly, I just reran this math. Even conservatively, it's probably more like 13000000, and as I said, probably more like that. So this comes from multiple studies over a couple different years. I believe the number that we cite there uh, uh, is uh, by by the researcher doctor Amy Morris.
[00:11:34] Brett Chamberlin: She's a really phenomenal researcher really bringing a lot of incredible attention to the nominogamy space. And so the number that has come up from multiple different studies and surveys over multiple years, about 5 percent of American adults. So that's where you get to, you know, 10 to 13000000. It is probably much higher because when you look at changing generational attitudes, you see that from a 20 23 YouGov poll which was a representative sample of a thousand American adults, you find that 1 in 3 millennials so people, I suppose, about 40 or or younger, 20 to 40 or so, I think, is the current bracket express that their ideal relationship structure is something other than complete monogamy. So 34 percent, that's huge.
[00:12:18] Brett Chamberlin: So I think there's a reasonable case to be made that the non monogamous population is as large or larger than the LGBTQIA population. But for so long, it's been a hidden identity. It's been something that people aren't sharing or aren't open about for very valid reasons, right, because many people are at risk of stigma and discrimination. And so this has led, I think, to a conception even within the non monogamous community that there are fewer of us than there actually are. But it really is, you know, again, over 10000000 American adults.
[00:12:48] Brett Chamberlin: And if you look at people that will be in a nonmonogamous relationship at some point in their life, right, The 10 to 13000000 number, that's people practicing nonmonogamy right now, identified as such. But people that will be in some sort of nonmonogamous relationship at some point in their life goes up to 1 in 5 adults. So these these are issues that just touch on a huge, huge portion of the American population, and, certainly, the numbers are are similar, although there's less research available across much of the world.
[00:13:16] Charna Cassell: You know, I I don't often get into the the details of studies and numbers and and feel like all of that. But I feel like it's important here given my hope is that listeners who are feeling insecure or are hiding part of themselves will go will have some kind of relief and get to exhale and go, oh, I'm not I'm not alone in this. And it's the same, and I don't wanna necessarily draw.
[00:13:44] Charna Cassell: There's no parallel, but when people are survivors of some kind of sexual trauma or sexual abuse. Right? Like, the numbers who reports because there's so much shame around things that people are working through, often so many things don't get reported. Right? So anytime you're dealing with any where there's a stigma around an identity or an experience, the reported numbers, I think, are gonna be way lower than the reality.
[00:14:10] Charna Cassell: You know, I even had I I so I work with I'm I'm a I'm a trauma therapist. I'm also a sex therapist. And so over the last 20 years, I've worked with a lot of different people in creating relationships that work for them. And um, you know, outside of what dominant culture may prescribe for you. And and as you said, it can be very surprising that even in the Bay Area, there are people that may have been practicing polyamory for years, but then there's this anxiety about being out at work.
[00:14:43] Charna Cassell: Right? So,
[00:14:44] Brett Chamberlin: Yes. you're kinda taking that number on its face. You know, if you work in a company, you have a hundred people, you are quite likely to think perhaps that you are the only nonmonogamous person there. Well, statistically speaking, there's probably 4 other people that hold this identity as well. Another really interesting research point that I think was really relevant to this conversation too is the finding that preference for nonmonogamy does not vary significantly across different demographic groups. So it actually does not vary considerably across race, region, religion, education, income.
[00:15:18] Brett Chamberlin: So people often tend to think that this is something that was clustered among, you know, younger or or more coastal or urban, quote, unquote, elites, right, or or hyper progressive people. But in fact, nominogamy is widely practiced by people from from all different different identities.
[00:15:34] Charna Cassell: I think that's a really important fact that's very interesting because I think that you're that's that it is an assumption I think a lot of people make. Right? Like, as you pointed to at the very beginning, it's like, who are the people that have the privilege to live outside the bounds of what's prescribed?
[00:15:57] Brett Chamberlin: Exactly. Right. Right.
[00:15:59] Brett Chamberlin: So I think the question and this sometimes skews people's perceptions. Right? The idea of the nominogamy is something that, you know, wealthy white people do. I think that perception is certainly not supported by the science, but it's understandable where that comes from because, again, similar to how I was describing my privilege. Right?
[00:16:13] Brett Chamberlin: If you own your own company, if you're own your own employer, if you have a strong financial safety net and, you know, the material support of your community, for example, was less important, well, it's much easier for you to be open about your identity because there's less risk of that stigma directly impacting you. But if you're somebody that is living with other marginalized identities, we certainly understand that these these harms and these risks compound. So that's 1 of the reasons that 1 of the things that we certainly encourage people to do, if it is safe for you to do so, is to open up about your nonmonogamous identity. So, again, you know, big asterisk. This is not encouraging people to put themselves at risk of harm jeopardize their job or their personal, you know, material or physical safety.
[00:16:55] Brett Chamberlin: But if you are someone that is supported within a progressive workplace, that that has supportive family and friends and feel safe doing so, opening up about your nonmonogamous identity is the best thing that you can do to improve visibility for our whole community and, by proximity, to make it safer for other people to live with or ultimately be open about their nonmonogamous identity as well.
[00:17:19] Charna Cassell: Yeah. It's an example of the personal being the political.
[00:17:22] Brett Chamberlin: That's exactly it.
[00:17:25] Charna Cassell: Mhmm.
[00:17:25] Charna Cassell: And and, you know, all that said, again, it's so interesting to me. I I know a number of therapists that even though we may work for ourselves, are are not out and open. Right? That there's still the fear even though you're attracting your own. It's like, you know, you get to choose who you work with.
[00:17:42] Charna Cassell: There's still that that fear of assumptions that will be made and who will choose to work with you or who won't. Right? Even though you could make your whole practice just focused on that in the Bay Area.
[00:17:55] Brett Chamberlin: Right. Yep. Yeah. People are afraid of getting pigeonholed, you know, very understandably.
[00:17:59] Charna Cassell: Mhmm. Mhmm.
[00:18:01] Charna Cassell: And and so so 1 of the things that I would love to illuminate here is there's so many things that folks who are in monogamous or heterosexual relationships take for granted? You know, like, little things like status on Facebook. Right? Being able to to so just what are some of those small things that people can suddenly go, oh, wait a second. I this is something I don't even think of as a right or a privilege.
[00:18:32] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. It's interesting that you note the Facebook status thing because this was actually 1 of the first campaigns that OpenRAN when we launched last spring was an open letter and a petition to Facebook, which got thousands of signatures, noting that their relationship status features fundamentally exclusionary towards nonanonymous people because you can only list 1 relationship status, and you can only tag 1 partner. So you can say you're in an open relationship, but, of course, that label doesn't fit people. And if you have multiple relationships and a polyamorous relationship or or other forms of dominogamy, you just can't be open about that.
[00:19:06] Brett Chamberlin: So it's it's just 1, you know, illustrative example of how nonmonogamy gets pushed to the edges and how monogamy is so overwhelmingly treated as the default by our society. So a few other examples some of which I mentioned earlier in that that list, but family and medical leave. Right? So you can only add 1 married spouse or domestic partner to your health insurance. You can't have multiple partners listed.
[00:19:29] Brett Chamberlin: You know, again, medical leave or bereavement leave. Right? If your spouse is in the hospital, you can take time off work under, you know, federal policy to go be with them. But if you have a spouse and another partner that may be equally as important and significant in your life, you might cohabitate, you do not have that that right. Hospital visitation and power of attorney are other examples.
[00:19:50] Brett Chamberlin: Immigration is an interesting 1. We had a a community member who shared in our community survey that we run each spring that they were attempting to immigrate with their partner. And throughout that process, the immigration officer who had access to their tech saw that they were in a multipartner relationship and therefore said well, clearly, this is not a valid relationship, and they deny their immigration status. Housing is another 1. Right?
[00:20:14] Brett Chamberlin: So many regions or areas are zoned as single family residences. And housing providers may see that if you're in a multipartner relationship they might believe that constitutes it doesn't constitute a single family. Or sometimes they'll just stigmatize the identity and say, oh, well, you're polyamorous. Like, clearly, you're gonna have people coming and going and partying and so on. Like, I I don't wanna rent to you.
[00:20:37] Brett Chamberlin: So those are just a few of the, you know, more more larger and prevalent ways, but it it really is just so, so many different. And I think at the top of the stack is really just the fact that all of this is, as I said earlier, is entirely legal with the very limited and recent exception of Somerville, Massachusetts, which this spring, the March of 20 23, became the first city in the US to pass the protections that I mentioned earlier. So we are starting to see this shift, but there is a a lot of work to do still to really roll this back and create more space for nonmonogamous people to have access to the same rights and protections that we afford to legally married folks.
[00:21:14] Charna Cassell: What do you think allowed for that to be passed in I mean, so, by the way, my sister my niece was who was just visiting for the last week. They all live in together in in Summerville. So I was like, yay, Summerville. What do you think allows allowed that to get past there?
[00:21:30] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. So, if I wave a bit of backstory, in 20 20, the city of Somerville and then closely followed by Cambridge, Mass and Arlington, Mass passed a plural domestic partnership ordinance.
[00:21:41] Brett Chamberlin: So this means that with multiple partners, you you can go in, register your domestic partnership, and gain access to some of the benefits that are associated with the domestic partnership. So if folks aren't aren't familiar, domestic partnership is fairly similar to the kind of legal institution of marriage, but it it's more accessible, and it doesn't have the same kind of social or religious implications that a marriage can. So that was in 20 20, and that came about, I think, my understanding is I won't say it by chance, but it was simply the fact that Summerville and Discover didn't have a domestic partnership ordinance on the books. And so in writing 1, members of city council said this is an opportunity for us to move the ball forward and be more inclusive. So fast forward to end of 20 22 and eventually 20 23 you've got a really phenomenal young city council member in Cambridge named Willie Burnley junior who said we need to take this 1 step further.
[00:22:30] Brett Chamberlin: People can register their plural domestic partnership in Somerville, but, technically, it would still be legal for their employer to to fire them on on this basis. So, Willie introduced this legislation in Somerville, worked with a range of advocacy organizations, a small coalition including Open and an organization called the Polyamory Legal Advocacy Coalition, which is another really important ally in this fight and the bill was passed this past March. Since then, the city of Cambridge, Massachusetts, just across, I think, just next door to Somerville which, of course, is where Harvard and MIT and other institutions are based, has introduced an identical bill, which as of time of recording which is October of 20 23, it looks like that is poised to pass, hopefully, within the next month or 2. And Open is also working with city council members in Oakland, California. And did I say Oakland?
[00:23:21] Brett Chamberlin: Open is working with folks in Oakland and in Berkeley to draft similar protections. So from those very first cities and the really wonderful example of of Willie and others who really helped get the ball rolling, we're working to expand the field of protections. And, ultimately, the vision is that nobody should be at risk of these types of, you know, totally legalized stigma or discrimination simply on the basis of their private consensual relationship. So we're hoping to see the spread to other cities and ultimately to the state and federal level. So if you, listener, if I may plug, are somebody that's interested in advocating for these these interventions in your city would love to hear from you.
[00:23:59] Brett Chamberlin: Open is available to provide resources, provide support, really help you get this conversation started in your community. So folks are welcome to email us at info at open dash love dot org. We are really excited to work with you and help you pull together a grassroots coalition, start reaching out to city councilors in your city so we can expand these protections to cover more and more people.
[00:24:22] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And and are there people in other countries? Countries? Like, are there precedents set and laws in place in other countries that you are aware of that are you're using as models, that you're in communication with? I'm just curious outside of the US, or are you really very focused?
[00:24:41] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. We're fairly focused on the US.
[00:24:43] Brett Chamberlin: You know, certainly, I'm conscious that nonmonogamy is is a global practice, and so we always wanna be as as inclusive and accommodating as we can of folks from other countries at the same time just by merit of, like, needing to have some constraint on where we're focusing. And, you know, as somebody that's grown up in a US context, I'm a little bit more familiar with with the legal context here. There are certainly other countries that have greater rights for these types of alternative social and family structures. So Germany, for example, recently introduced a policy that allows anyone effectively to register their relationship and assume a series of of rights and privileges that are normally really only associated with legal marriage. So you and your roommates or your polyamorous pod or your best friend can go in and effectively access quite similar to the domestic partnership protections that I just referenced.
[00:25:36] Brett Chamberlin: 1 thing that is interesting to note, though, that is unique about the US context is because we have very little in the way of a social safety net. Right? No guarantee to housing. No guarantee to health care. It's much more salient here.
[00:25:49] Brett Chamberlin: Right? So if you live in in Germany or, you know, France or the UK or any other countries that have universal health care, it's much less important whether you're able to add both of your partners to health insurance because you all get health insurance from the state. So here in the US, because we are so reliant on this family model as the foundation of our social rights and social safety net, it's much more important that those family models be more accessible and inclusive for folks with with multiple partners.
[00:26:20] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:26:20] Charna Cassell: No. Certainly. That's why I just wondered. I'm like, that's it seems like it would be. The stakes are a lot higher here.
[00:26:27] Charna Cassell: And the thing that that really frustrates me as someone who is not like, neither of my parents ever got married to each other or to anyone else. So I was not raised with a certain prescription and and pressure to to live a certain way, and and I've always really valued my friendships. Right? So so people don't always think of, like, polyamorous connections. They they they automatically perceive that there's gonna be, like, sex involved, right, versus, like, having these deeply intimate friendship networks and valuing those.
[00:26:59] Charna Cassell: And and, you know, what you repeatedly see in American culture is not just monogamous partnership, but just partnership. Like, a sexual connection, a romantic connection is is supposed to be valued above all else. Right?
[00:27:15] Brett Chamberlin: That's such a great
[00:27:17] Charna Cassell: It makes me crazy.
[00:27:18] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so glad that you raised that. And this is really important when we talk about this topic because the idea is really should not be to expand the privileges of the monogamous romantic relationship to include nonmonogamous romantic relationships, it should be to challenge the supremacy of romantic relationships in our society as a whole.
[00:27:38] Brett Chamberlin: Right? Because we should also ensure that we are thinking about people you know, it's it's it's not a fine line. That's 1 of the my favorite things about nonmonogamies is it really helps to break down this bright line where every relationship has to get pigeonholed into aromantic partnership or just a friendship. It creates this much more freedom for people to establish the relationships and kind of pick and choose the elements that matter to them. So it could be romantic.
[00:28:02] Brett Chamberlin: It could be intimate. It could be life partnership, financial entanglement you know, networks of of care and providing mutual care and support and so on. So, yeah, I I'm really glad that you raised that point. I think it's really important that that not get lost, that this is about liberating human connection entirely, not just from the monogamous mold, but to really give people the space, the autonomy, the skills, and the vocabularies to establish whatever relationships are are rewarding and fulfilling and and desirous to them.
[00:28:30] Charna Cassell: That's great.
[00:28:31] Charna Cassell: I was that was exactly where I was was wanting to direct us was towards how it how you see polyamory contributing to a broader human liberation. And if there's anything else that you would add to that that you just said.
[00:28:46] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah.
[00:28:46] Brett Chamberlin: And this is what really excites me. Right? So I think about this as the sort of, like, narrower short term, you know, interventions and then the, like, wider, deeper, more transformative interventions. Right? So so the narrower intervention is is what we've just been talking about.
[00:28:58] Brett Chamberlin: Right? It's about in the shorter term over the course of the next, you know, decade or so, really meaningfully confronting and ending the forms of stigma and discrimination that are experienced by nonmonocompous people. Right? So that's that's the basic of the first level. Underneath that is this broader, you know, ultimately generational and really deep social transformation where we can move from a society that really privileges the the very narrowly defined family model as this highly atomized, highly individuated, ultimately consumer focused unit, right, where every individual person is out to get theirs, maybe partner up with 1 other person and be defined as as a household, which you know, so often in our consumer economy, a a consumer identity.
[00:29:43] Brett Chamberlin: Right? And moving us, in my opinion, back to to a very much older model, which is also a a forward looking transformative model of a more cooperative, more connection oriented, more community focused, more consent based model for establishing not just, as we say, romantic relationships, social relationships, you know, family networks, which you can think about as the sort of return to to to the tribe, right, to use a word and build a society that is more focused on connection and cooperation instead of consumption
[00:30:22] Charna Cassell: Yeah. And just to go back to your environmental activist work can you say more about I I can't remember if you create did were you part of making a documentary?
[00:30:32] Brett Chamberlin: Yes. So my previous role um, where I was for the the 5 years, this was the role that I moved out to the Bay Area for, and then this is the role that I ultimately left to start open, was in an organization called the Story of Stuff Project, which does advocacy and education that works to confront our consumption crazed economy and really look at the whole life cycle of the things that we use and attract with, where we come from and where they go after we're done with them. And our work for a time really focused on plastic traveling to Southeast Asia, getting this really stark footage of traveling to Southeast Asia, getting this really stark footage of fields of sometimes openly burning fields of plastic waste, much of which is imported from the US.
[00:31:14] Brett Chamberlin: So you could pick up an Amazon package envelope with an address in Montana or Idaho and see it smoldering in a field in Indonesia. And then following the production, the release of the film led the grassroots distribution, so so helping to plan, you know, thousands of grassroots screenings in countries all around the world. And then that film ultimately won a news and documentary Emmy for best documentary in 20 20. So this issue, this this is still really near and dear to my heart. Right?
[00:31:39] Brett Chamberlin: The question underlying it is, where do we derive our identity and our value and our meaning in the world today? And I think the default and certainly the the kind of conventionally prescribed American model is you define it by your status by the things that you consume, and that has really come at the cost of this much deeper level of connection and of community that, of course, is really at the center of our evolutionary history. Right? Like, people a thousand years ago, 10000 years ago were not running around around in monogamous, married nuclear families and, you know, comparing who had the the fanciest, you know, obsidian dagger and pelt knife. Right?
[00:32:15] Brett Chamberlin: They were working together in these highly connected, cooperative, small group units. And we've lost that, and it's taken a real toll. It's degraded our our mental and emotional health, our capacity to collaborate and cooperate in the world. And we desperately I mean, I think that's that's the state of the world right now just cries out for a better capacity to connect, to make meaning together, to support 1 another, to understand the world cooperatively. And so this is not to be prescriptive about non monogamy.
[00:32:47] Brett Chamberlin: This is not to say everybody needs to be non monogamous to save the world, but I think that the non monogamous space has something really, really important to offer to the world in this moment.
[00:32:57] Charna Cassell: Well, and I'll I mean, I've got I'm gonna start I'm gonna start crying because of what's happening in the world right now, but
[00:33:04] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah.
[00:33:06] Charna Cassell: just take a moment because I just things are just so polarized.
[00:33:11] Charna Cassell: So when I think of the need for collaboration and connection, it feels very urgent.
[00:33:20] Brett Chamberlin: Mhmm.
[00:33:27] Charna Cassell: Excuse me. The piece that you're bringing up around when there are black and white definitions of how we are supposed to be to be accepted and to be successful, then that also creates so much fear that people are living within. And if they don't fit inside those boxes of of, like, how I'm supposed to behave to be an acceptable human and you're filled with you know? So follow me here.
[00:34:04] Charna Cassell: Right? So you're filled with shame. You're filled perhaps with powerlessness. And what people do when they feel powerless is they wanna move to power.
[00:34:14] Brett Chamberlin: Mhmm.
[00:34:15] Charna Cassell: And often what a company's power is a lot of, you know, like, that that jump, the least vulnerable emotion is rage.
[00:34:23] Charna Cassell: And there's an acting out, and there's a an attempt to grab and to reclaim power in a way that is is like a frantic it's coming from a frantic desperate place rather than I'm the I'm if I'm accepted, if I accept myself and I and I accept a level of flexibility in gray and there's permission for people to exist in a range of ways, then there's so much less of that violent acting out. You know? And so I think of it on an individual level, and I think of it on a systemic level. And and there's so much acting from fear right now. And I know I'm just kind of going off on a random tangent, but like, my I just my my whole body right now is just kind of like like, , feeling the anxiety of what's happening in the collective,
[00:35:26] Charna Cassell: you know, as I think about that.
[00:35:27] Charna Cassell: And I think if if there's anything, like, what are all the things that we can do to contribute to more humanity? Because humanity is what's so lost
[00:35:36] Brett Chamberlin: Right.
[00:35:38] Charna Cassell: inside the polarization.
[00:35:40] Brett Chamberlin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think that there's something really fundamentally liberatory about these alternative, not just relationship structures, but, fundamentally, these very deep ways of being.
[00:35:50] Brett Chamberlin: Right? That I think part of the sickness of the world right now that you're identifying and that we're all so deeply feeling is this reduction of the world and of people into its you know, in the case of the the materials economy, like, it's raw material components that should be extracted and converted into material goods. And in the case of kind of sociocultural element, it's about pill pigeonholing everyone with these very narrowly prescribed identities and modes of connection. And yet on the extractive side, we know that it's really killing our world, and I think that as we look around at the social side, we see the many implications of the the social side of that. Right?
[00:36:31] Brett Chamberlin: The the the rise of the the incel rage of, you know, the the the overwhelming prevalence of intimate partner violence and sexual violence the fundamental breakdown of our social systems and of our capacity for for civic cooperation. So, again, you know, I I don't mean to be too grandiose here and say, you know, nonmonogamy saves the world, but I think that it really is part of the medicine. It's a it's a lens. Right? And as we confront these deeply harmful systems, even the people that aren't nonmonogamous.
[00:37:01] Brett Chamberlin: Right? Because there's plenty of people that just want to be monogamous, and then it's totally well and good. Right? Like, we celebrate them too, but I think that we can also liberate them. They are victims of toxic monogamy and a prescribed monogamy culture, just like men are victims of toxic masculinity as well too.
[00:37:17] Brett Chamberlin: So I I really think that just by untangling this mess, like, there's a there's a lot that we can learn here.
[00:37:23] Charna Cassell: Well and I you know, just in again, in very simple terms, when there's a lack of self acceptance,
[00:37:30] Brett Chamberlin: Mhmm.
[00:37:30] Charna Cassell: There's a a huge ripple effect, you know, on how you treat yourself and how you treat others.
[00:37:36] Charna Cassell: And then who are the people that are, you know, then making the laws? You know? Who are the people that are the judges? Who are the people that are in power? Who are the people that are our our police officers, etcetera?
[00:37:49] Charna Cassell: And so I just feel like if if more people were,, in a state of self acceptance, which which is really what I feel like this touches on. Right? When you're when you're liberated to exist outside of what dominant cultures for however you know, and it's not that old as you said. It's like, we think, like, you know, uh, I don't when did when do you think monogamy started to be instilled in as a model? Like, agricultural society, when did
[00:38:24] Brett Chamberlin: Mhmm.
[00:38:24] Brett Chamberlin: Even more recent than that, it really was with the rise of of and that the prescription that people should be in these strictly monogamous relationships and then particularly during the the feudal era and then really setting in getting set more in stone during the the Victorian era. Right? So quite recent modernity and was largely a political and an economic arrangement. Right? So it was that if you wanna have an alliance with the neighboring, you know, warring kingdom, you marry your daughter off to their prince or, of course, you know, you pay someone a dowry to take your extra, you know, daughters off off your hands because, you know, they can't work the factory or the field.
[00:38:58] Brett Chamberlin: And then with the industrial revolution, this is where you really see that sort of married couple and the nuclear family model really, again, becoming reinforced principally as as an economic unit. Right? So when you see the move to wage to wage slavery, to use a somewhat loaded term you see the the male party typically going off to work in the factory and the female party doing unpaid labor to maintain the household. Now interestingly, again, particularly in the Victorian era, monogamy was always somewhat of an artifice, right, because adultery and affairs were actually extraordinarily common. There was certainly an idea that, you know, you should just be discreet and not be open about it, but it was kind of understood that everyone's spouse was principally an economic and a political arrangement, and that passion and love and romance and certainly sex were actually dangerous to be incorporated as part of that because it jeopardized the whole political and economic construct there.
[00:39:54] Brett Chamberlin: So it's really only very, very recently that there's been this this idea as a very modern construction that you should find your 1 true love and you should get married to them and spend the whole rest of your life with them. And, again, asterisk here, That model is attractive and appealing and works for many people. We certainly don't fault them that. But the idea that there should be a 1 size fits all approach that we don't even question. Right?
[00:40:16] Brett Chamberlin: And, you know, we we don't even we don't teach kids about relationship models, and we don't even teach them how to be in a monogamous relationship, no less nonmonogamous relationship effectively. Right? Like, what could be more fundamental and important and how to relate to other people and, you know, be an intimate romantic partnership, something that is so fundamental to the human experience. And we leave people to just figure it out from, you know, watching rom coms and seeing that, hopefully, the example of their parents, which is often as not, is, you know, gonna gonna leave them as gray. So I I digress a little bit there.
[00:40:47] Brett Chamberlin: But, yeah, this is all to say. Monogamy is is very recent, and it brings a lot of baggage with
[00:40:51] Charna Cassell: well, in that whole last part you know, that makes me crazy. Like, 20 years ago, I I got certified as a a somatic coach, and my whole focus was very much in wanting to create relationship and and embodied sexuality education in public schools. Like, that was I'm like, if we all just had some embodied relationship skills, what a difference that would make. It's completely lacking, and so I appreciate the component of your of your theory of change in creating relating skills. Right? Like, all relationships all relationship structures need more tools and more practice, and that's another 1 of those assumptions that gets made in in, you know, heterosexual relationships and and monogamous relationships. It's just like, oh, you're supposed to just be able to to make it work, and you're just supposed to be able to cruise and have fun and whatever.
[00:41:44] Charna Cassell: And it's like, no. Actually, relationships take a lot of communication
[00:41:48] Brett Chamberlin: Yep. They really do. Before we respond to that point, I just wanna circle
[00:41:52] Charna Cassell: work. Yeah.
[00:41:56] Brett Chamberlin: back.
[00:41:56] Brett Chamberlin: I just wanna plug the author Stephanie Coontz, last name, c o 0 n t z, who has written a bunch about marriage. So a book that I'm referencing there is marriage, a history, how love conquered marriage. So just wanna highlight some of the the researcher I'm drawing on there. There's a really great episode of the podcast, Adam Ruins Everything. So folks may end up the TV show.
[00:42:11] Brett Chamberlin: There's a podcast as well that you can find. It's titled Matrimony Myths with Stephanie Coon. So just wanna highlight that really, really, really interesting interesting episode. You can learn a lot about the history of marriage. But to return to your point about teaching people about relationships, you know, this is 1 of the things that, like, I I get it, but, of course, it really bugs me when people are like, oh, non monogamy.
[00:42:29] Brett Chamberlin: Like, that's really hard. Like, that sounds really complicated. And it's like, okay. Yes. There is an extent to which, of course, more people necessarily brings a degree more complexity, but I think the real underlying aspect there is that we in a monogamous partnership, maybe it should be a little harder.
[00:42:46] Brett Chamberlin: Right? Like, people are relying so much on this social script. Right? We refer to the concept of the relationship escalator. Right?
[00:42:52] Brett Chamberlin: You go on your first date. You have your first kiss. You start becoming intimate. You move in together. You get married.
[00:42:57] Brett Chamberlin: You have kids. You buy a house and and that's it. And it only goes in 1 direction. And so there's so much of a reliance on this social scaffolding for mon monogamy that I think many people are kind of just sleepwalking through their relationships. And so in nonmonogamy, there's this, you know, freedom, but also this real mandate to be much more thoughtful and and deliberate about how we are actually constructing a relationship.
[00:43:21] Brett Chamberlin: And I know, you know, to speak personally. Right? Like, getting into the monogamy space was deeply transformative for me because all of a sudden, it was like, oh, like, how am I doing relationships? What what are the internal, you know, scripts that I've been playing out or pursuing that I haven't even acknowledged? Like, how do I bring real care and support to my partnerships? know, learning about boundaries and desires and vulnerability. Like, as somebody, you know, socialized as a as a cis man, it was incredibly important for me to not just learn nonmonogamy as a set of, you know, vocabularies and skills, but to unlearn toxic monogamy and all the ways that I was just sleepwalking through my relationships with these implicit assumptions. And I just wasn't even questioning because I wasn't even aware of them. Right? It was just this is how relationships are.
[00:44:08] Charna Cassell: Right. You know?
[00:44:09] Charna Cassell: And I think it it's kind of like, you know, if you're someone who wants to have a child and until you find out you can't, you know, and then you're it's like you don't you people just do the thing. They just get pregnant. Right? They don't have to really confront and look at why do I wanna be a mother? Why do I wanna be a father?
[00:44:27] Charna Cassell: Like, what do I want out of my relationships? So I think anytime in a way, challenge and struggle, they they work for you because they they help your you evolve as a as a deeper soul and spirit because you're like, oh, I have to ask some harder questions that if I existed, you know, inside of certain norms, I don't even have to have to ask those questions.
[00:44:51] Brett Chamberlin: Mhmm.
[00:44:52] Charna Cassell: Like, I came out when I was 15, and and I worked I was in a social justice summer camp.
[00:44:57] Charna Cassell: then I was a youth leader inside of it, and as a youth leader, you went through these trainings, and so you you had to ask these questions. And, you know, I remember at that age wondering, like, okay. So well, what's who am I inherently and what's a result of sexual trauma? Right?
[00:45:16] Charna Cassell: And so even that, like, just just questioning sense of self, whatever it is that has you question versus make assumptions about, well, ever all these other people say they're heterosexual, so I'm supposed to be heterosexual or they're attracted to boys. So I'm gonna just I'm just automatically attracted to boys. Right?
[00:45:39] Brett Chamberlin: Mhmm.
[00:45:40] Charna Cassell: And so, you know, all of these things that that just kind of build a more genuine sense of self as you you dig into the questions and you develop new tools and skills, and you try things on. And maybe you're like, oh, this actually doesn't work for me.
[00:45:58] Charna Cassell: This is you know? I've decided this is the path that I wanna choose.
[00:46:03] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah.
[00:46:04] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, like, for this to be truly transformational and liberationary, it has to be much more accessible. Right? I think we've made enormous gains in the last, you know, 6 decades, particularly since the the sort of, you know, summer of love and the kind of beginning of to open up minority sexual identities. Right?
[00:46:25] Brett Chamberlin: That they they they have the gay liberation movement as it was first called, now the LGBTQIA movement you know, sexual freedom movement. And and yet these types of personal transformation that sounds like you and I have have had access to and are such important parts of our stories are still so so limited or or difficult to access, particularly for people that don't have the types of, you know, privileged identities or economic privilege that you and I might. Right? So if you're not able to go to the expensive, you know, psychedelic medicine therapy or, I mean, god knows psychotherapy is incredibly expensive you know, transformational retreats and so on. It can be really hard to unwind this clock.
[00:47:04] Brett Chamberlin: Right? If you're living in scarcity, it can be really difficult to take a step back and to sometimes take what could be the risk to try a new way of being or to have a position of material security and emotional security in your life to step back and and do this deeper self work. So I just think that's a really important point to acknowledge too that this this is something that everyone should have a right to, and we need to be really conscious that we're doing the deep work, that we're bringing this to everybody, and that we are ensuring that this is something that is readily accessible to all people from all walks of life, from all backgrounds. And part of that is a question of, you know, the accessibility of these these learning itself. And part of it, as I say, is just the whole rest of the social justice and economic justice and racial justice framework.
[00:47:47] Brett Chamberlin: Right? Because people need to not be in scarcity or at material risk in every moment of their life to have the freedom security to do some of the more personal liberation and then sort of transformational work that we've been discussing here.
[00:48:02] Charna Cassell: it's also so it's first having the having laws in place and having more public conversations, right, that creates the visibility and it creates the level of of of more safety of knowing, like, oh, there there might be laws on my side.
[00:48:16] Charna Cassell: And then I'm just really curious about representations in the media and how do these images get more normalized versus being like a, you know, a funny sideline part of a t like, the politician. Did you see the politician?
[00:48:32] Brett Chamberlin: Oh, I didn't.
[00:48:33] Charna Cassell: Oh my god. You have to see the politician. But there's a trouble.
[00:48:36] Charna Cassell: There's a a threeple in the politician. But then I even think about things like I don't know if you ever watched the show The Bachelor or The Bachelorette. And so so, technically and I've been wanting to do a breakdown of this, like, using it using that to do trauma education, actually, looking at people's nervous systems. But, specifically, what's fascinating to me is that they're in these poly relationships until they're forced at the very end to choose 1 person. But they'll be like, I'm I don't understand.
[00:49:08] Charna Cassell: How can I be in love with 3 people at the same time? And it it just it's every single time they go through the same spiel, and they're all it's like I was like, what what how radical would it be if at some point because then the women all or the men, whoever, they all stay good friends even though 1 person's been chosen. And I'm just like, what would it be like if that person at the end was like, I'm sorry. I can't choose. We've we've discussed it, and we're all gonna stay together.
[00:49:36] Brett Chamberlin: Oh, lord. I hope we live to see that moment.
[00:49:38] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. I think that it's a really funny lens to look at The Bachelor through. I forget whose observation this was originally, but I recall seeing this in the the first first time on Twitter. So, but right. It's it's been effectively polyamory for the whole season until the very end, but they're just not calling it that.
[00:49:52] Brett Chamberlin: And, of course, nor are they providing the education, the support, and so on to make that
[00:49:56] Brett Chamberlin: healthier and more accessible. So this is, like, really traumatizing aspect, I'm sure, for the people on the show to be going through this experience without the real vocabulary or social support to to kind of hold that. Yeah. So with regard to your your previous question about polyamory in the media, nonmonogamy generally in the media, you know, we're starting to see kind of more and more of it popping up as plot lines, as secondary plot lines, you know, secondary characters that have nonmonogamy as part of their identity. I think you know, I I haven't seen all of what's out there, so would love to hear from folks
[00:50:26] Brett Chamberlin: if if there's something we're missing.
[00:50:28] Brett Chamberlin: Right? They can they can tweet or or message us on Instagram, write to us via our email, info at open dash love dot org. But from what I'm seeing, I think it is largely still something that is written as a as a plot line. Right? As opposed to just being something that the characters are.
[00:50:46] Brett Chamberlin: Right? So I think we're still waiting for our, like, our will and grace, right, or our modern family where there are characters that are, in that case, you know, queer or gay, and in this case, nonmonogamous, but it's not their entire identity or plot line. It's just just a part of who they are. So I I think we're likely to see that sooner than later because nonmonogamy and the movement is having this incredible key change moment, this incredible, like, rising wave. So I I think it's close.
[00:51:16] Brett Chamberlin: I think it's coming.
[00:51:17] Charna Cassell: So along those lines, I had a guest on my podcast, um, doctor Lori Beth Bisbee, who is the resident sex therapist on a show called the the Open House, The Great Sex Experiment on channel 4. So it's not unfortunately, it's not available here.
[00:51:36] Charna Cassell: But there's I think there's gonna be an American version. So, yeah, that's interesting.
[00:51:44] Brett Chamberlin: I'll do it.
[00:51:46] Charna Cassell: Well, so isn't it I know that Bonobo there's aren't isn't there a documentary crew coming to do some filming in the local community. So if people don't know what the Bonobo tribe is, they do a lot of educational as well as sex parties. They, you know lots of different resources available in the Bay Area.
[00:52:09] Charna Cassell: Do or do you know what I'm talking about?
[00:52:11] Charna Cassell: I I
[00:52:11] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah.
[00:52:11] Brett Chamberlin: I'm I'm not entirely sure what's what what's publish I I think what's okay to share is that there there is a documentary creator that's working on this. There's not a sort of production agreement in place, but they're working on getting some content that they'll then use to pitch to various networks because there is a really rich story to tell. And it it is I think people would benefit from seeing and understanding it because there's so many misconceptions. Right? I think that everyone thinks that every non monogamous person is, you know, living 8 adults, or they're going on dates every night, or that, you know, god knows that misconceptions about sex parties and play parties are right.
[00:52:44] Brett Chamberlin: It's just 1 1 riding pit of, you know, flesh and everyone touching everybody, and I think people would be surprised to see how much deep conversation and laughter and Disney musical sing alongs actually happens at a play party. So I am hopeful that this creates an opportunity for for really more authentic and vulnerable storytelling to people understand, to help people understand what this is, what this isn't, and ultimately, hey. That looks pretty fun. I I think I might be open to giving that a try. Because this is something, you know, as I was saying earlier, like, not just around the personal transformation, but also around the the social element type of it.
[00:53:17] Brett Chamberlin: Like, everybody should have a right to this. Right? Like, pleasure is such a fundamental human right. How can we make this more accessible to more people? Because right now, you know, as I say, non monogamy is is widely distributed, but certainly, the social sex element can be much more challenging to access.
[00:53:41] Brett Chamberlin: It can be somewhat more difficult to find you might be able to find dating partners, but to find a community event to connect with people or a play party to connect with people, it can be sometimes a little difficult to practice nonmonogamy to really find not just partners, but role models, communities of care, and support.
[00:53:57] Charna Cassell: Yeah. I you know, along those lines, I I thought a lot about during during COVID, during the pandemic, what was going on for people, the the challenge of navigating multiple connections and pods, but also the longing for connection and how that may have actually worked really well for some folks who had, you know, all their little needs met inside of a previously created pod and also you know? So I'm curious how you've seen the pandemic impact the poly world and and communities and inside people's real need for connection.
[00:54:42] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah.
[00:54:42] Brett Chamberlin: It's a great question. It's it's a really, really interesting 1 to think about. So it starts with the observation within the last, you know, few years, really, since 20 19, 20 20, there has been a huge explosion of interest in nonmonarchy, and that's evidenced in a a number of different ways. It's the formation of organizations like Open. It's the huge surge in attention to content creators and podcasts related to NomNogMe.
[00:55:05] Brett Chamberlin: It's like the growth of membership of communities like Bonobo. And so the question is, right, well, why is that? And I think there's a number of different factors at play. I I do think that the the pandemic certainly had something to do with it. Right?
[00:55:18] Brett Chamberlin: And that's that's in 2 ways. 1, people locked down, and many people sort of were introduced to the vocabulary of a pod even if it wasn't a romantic pod. And other people were perhaps locked down with their 1 intimate partner and was like, oh, you know, actually, I love you, but I don't know that I love spending every minute with you. They realized how much they needed social connection. And there was an an invitation to consider alternative ways of of connecting or forming social systems and pods.
[00:55:44] Brett Chamberlin: So So that's half of the pandemic question. The other half of it, I think, is there was a way in which this highly disruptive event just kind of shattered our sense of how the world is and how the world should be. And so there's almost this, I mean, deeply tragic, but also somewhat liberatory element to that, where there's this sense that, you know, f it. Right? Like, if if if everything is going up to pot, like, all the rules are off.
[00:56:09] Brett Chamberlin: Right? So that's the pandemic. The other elements I think are at play that are still really important to note is that, first of all, it's just where we are in terms of the progression of sexual liberation. Right? So for polyamory to and then the nonmonogamy movement to be what it is now, a couple preceding things had to happen.
[00:56:26] Brett Chamberlin: Right? So you have to have, like, the sexual revolution. You have to have access to contraception, right, birth control, like, a huge part of this. You also have to have, again, originally, the the gay liberation movement and then the LGBTQIA movement, right, because there's a similarity there and that you've got marginalized sexual identities, and yet the experience of marginalization is is fundamentally different. Right?
[00:56:49] Brett Chamberlin: There's a much greater urgency to the LGBTQIA experience because, nonmonogamous people, while it is a marginalized minority identity, nonmonogamous people are generally not being, like, murdered in the street for their identity. And so that those other sets of movements had to happen first. So I think it's this kind of moment in history has arrived where the foundation has been built. We now have a sufficient cultural vocabulary. And I I do think the pandemic gave a bit of a push um, and so I think we're seeing it happening maybe sooner or faster than it would have.
[00:57:21] Brett Chamberlin: But I think that this moment was was a long time coming regardless when you look back at just the progression of the last couple decades.
[00:57:29] Charna Cassell: I wish we had more time. I would love to get into that more, but we need to say goodbye for now. Is there anything else that you wanna say before we wrap up? And also, how can people find you once again?
[00:57:42] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah. I just love this conversation. It's such a joy to touch on. Just so many of the different elements of it.
[00:57:47] Brett Chamberlin: Right? I love getting into the bigger picture social transformation questions and just really contextualizing the nonmonogamy space, not just within history, but also within our our society and culture as it is and and as it might be. So just thank you so much for these wonderful questions, and just really hope the listeners enjoyed. We'd love to invite people to connect with our organization. So as you've heard me say, nonmonogamy really is now a a movement and we'd love for you to be a part of that.
[00:58:13] Brett Chamberlin: Individually, if you're in a position to open up, as I say, that's really the the best thing that individual people can do if it's safe for them to do so to create a little bit more space for others. And if you'd like to connect with Open to get a little bit more involved in our direct advocacy, whether that's through our open workplaces initiative, if you wanna start some of these conversations in your workplace, or through our legislative advocacy. So folks can visit our website at open dash love dot org. And if you wanna add open dash love dot org slash hello, that's where you'll see a landing page. It's got a link to our community Discord server where you can connect with other advocates and community leaders.
[00:58:46] Brett Chamberlin: You can join us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter instagram and LinkedIn, we're at open love org on all of those platforms. Join our email list.
[00:58:56] Brett Chamberlin: That's the best way to get our action alerts and to get invitations to things like our free monthly peer support sessions. And it's also where you can contribute. Right? Because, of course, it does take resources to make a movement like this happen. We're working on scaling up our team to just make sure that there is a real voice for the nominogamy movement and that we're really able to meet this moment and bring real dedicated resources to bear.
[00:59:17] Brett Chamberlin: So once again, the landing page is open dash love dot org slash hello. And, finally, you can reach out to us info at open dash love dot org. We'd We'd love to hear your feedback on this conversation, anything you think we missed, anything you wanna add, or or how you'd like to get involved.
[00:59:32] Charna Cassell: Beautiful.
[00:59:33] Charna Cassell: Thank you so much. I
[00:59:35] Charna Cassell: appreciate the work you're doing.
[00:59:37] Brett Chamberlin: Yeah.
[00:59:38] Brett Chamberlin: What a pleasure it's been to speak with you.
[00:59:39] Charna Cassell: I hope you're walking away from this episode with a more nuanced understanding of polyamory and inspired to get yourselves further and seek support in practicing with integrity should you need it. Endless suffering comes from shame, lack of self acceptance, and allowing what is versus making it wrong.
[00:59:59] Charna Cassell: This happens all the time in relationships. People make themselves wrong for what and who they desire, whether that is internalized homophobia or heterophobia, thinking you should want more sex or less kinky sex, you should wanna be a mother or be monogamous. If you are or wanna be in a poly relationship, there could be a lot of fear arising about going public with it, especially if you don't live somewhere like the Bay Area that has supportive communities to join. Here are a few books you can read to guide you. Open Deeply by Kate Laurie.
[01:00:31] Charna Cassell: Kate was also a guest on the Late Open podcast. You can listen to her episode Building the Relationship You Want. And PolySecure and Polywise by Jessica Fern, The Ethical Slut by Dosey Easton and Janet w Hardy. Some people are in a liminal space, uncertain of what they want. Even if you are clear on monogamy or non monogamy, there are many other nuances to consider when choosing a mate.
[01:00:58] Charna Cassell: Relationships are complex enough when you're in just 1. Being in multiple love relationships requires a level of presence, communication, and sophistication, not just a desire to get it on with multiple people. We don't all define a relationship the same way and don't have the same priorities or motivations. So just saying I love you means 1 thing to 1 person and something entirely different to another. Wanting a committed relationship is not very specific.
[01:01:25] Charna Cassell: Do you want an activity companion, someone to rock climb with daily while the person you're interested in wants someone to raise children with, and matching with someone with common interests is less of a priority for them.
[01:01:36] Charna Cassell: Someone else is looking to focus on emotional evolution and helping each other heal while that is the last thing someone primarily focused on having hot sex and and a travel partner wants. Another person wants to find a love to be of service and change our culture. None of these generalized wants or notions of what the function of a relationship is is wrong or right. Remember, these needs and wants are ever changing for many, so they may evolve and morph over time. Many people are surprised by the twists and turns their lives take, let alone their romantic entanglements and choices.
[01:02:10] Charna Cassell: You could be a lifelong lesbian and meet a man you fall madly in love with or vice versa. Here's some things to get explicitly clear about for yourself. Sometimes it's trial and error and you just don't know until you know. And other times, unworkable situations somehow work because of excellent communication skills. Here's an incomplete list of things to consider.
[01:02:32] Charna Cassell: How many days a week do you wanna see this person? How much alone time do you need relative to connecting time in person and via phone and text?
[01:02:40] Charna Cassell: Do you wanna have sex, or do you prefer less of a sexual relationship? If you do want more sex, how often is ideal versus how often feels necessary for you? Do you prefer dating someone with kids, or is navigating an every other week parenting schedule too much for you? What constitutes sex? For some, this is defined by penetration of any kind, oral, digital, or otherwise.
[01:03:05] Charna Cassell: How do you define it? What does casual sex mean to you? What specifically helps keep it casual? Do you know how to do this if you're exiting a 25 year relationship? How much emotional connection do you need to feel safe, present, and turned on before you engage sexually?
[01:03:26] Charna Cassell: Do you know what embodied consent is? What are the internal signals you feel when it's a yes? And what are the external signs that communicate ambivalence or no from your partner? What is your sexual pace? Do you want to have connected sex with all of your partners, or some casual encounters are okay with you?
[01:03:48] Charna Cassell: What else would you add to this list? What is important to you that you think gets missed by the dominant culture's expectations of 1 kind of partnership? If you've found this podcast helpful, share it with anyone you can, any way you can.
[01:04:03] Charna Cassell: Please rate, review, and share it with friends so others can find our community of healing. You can also follow me at Late Open Podcast on Instagram and Facebook, and read more about my work@passionatelife.org. You can also sign up for my newsletter to stay informed. This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host, Charna Cassell. Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself
