Ep. 108 The Secret Life of Dreams with Bonnie Buckner

Show Notes The Secret Life of Dreams with Bonnie Buckner Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Hi, welcome back to LaidOPEN Podcast. This is your host, Charna Cassell, and I have a special treat for you today. I have this tendency where I have these really enlivening and dynamic conversations with my guests after I stop recording and I have this fantasy that one day I'm not gonna stop recording and you're gonna all get to be part of it. I feel very grateful for what I get to do and the conversations I get to have and these remarkable beings that I get to spend a tiny little slice of time with. Especially when I've read someone's book, it feels so intimate and like such an honor. Today's guest is Bonnie Buckner. And she's a creative dreamwork expert, the author of "The Secret Mind: Unlock The Power of Dreams to Transform Your Life", and the founder and CEO of the International Institute for Dreaming and Imagery, where she teaches individuals and organizations how to use dreaming and imagery to enhance their [00:01:00] creativity, learn problem solving tools, and to discover and bring to fruition their great dream of self. Welcome, Bonnie. Bonnie Buckner: Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. Charna Cassell: There were a number of [00:02:00] synchronicities when your publisher reached out. I had just completed recording another guest who does dream work. Oh. And I was like, oh, this is really interesting. Like, you know, in waking life, it seems like there'll be clusters of movies that are released around the same thing of like baseball movies or Bonnie Buckner: Yeah, the Volcano movies. The contagion movies. Yeah. Charna Cassell: And so there's like, there's something in the collective unconscious that was like. This is a good idea. Let's do this right now. Hmm. And one of the things that I, I really loved the introduction to your book, and one of the things that you, that you talk about is the decline in creativity. How the same part of the brain, the same neural network system relates to empathy, relates to problem solving, relates to dreaming. And, [00:03:00] uh, so this, this thing of like, oh, how interesting. There, there, there's this need for collective dreaming right now. Bonnie Buckner: Oh yes. Now more than ever. Charna Cassell: And collective problem solving and in increase in empathy versus decrease in empathy. And so as you were kind of laying that all out, I was like, I was just seeing it unfold. Almost like in a dream, the way the, it's almost like the images and like your, your thoughts. I was connecting the dots and thinking like, oh, this is an important book. Like, it looks like one thing, you know, like, oh yeah, I have control over your life and transform your, your, you know, your inner blocks. But it's like, oh no, this is, this is something that we need to do as a collective. Bonnie Buckner: I would love that. I hope it catches hold. I hope people start dreaming together. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Do you ever do that to do collective dreaming or dream groups? Bonnie Buckner: Absolutely. So I have an Institute, Institute for Dreaming and Imagery, and we teach dream classes and there are some people [00:04:00] that have been taking classes with me for many years. We've been dreaming together a long time and. There's an energy that starts to develop with people who've been dreaming together for a long time, and we begin to sort of start to work around a similar theme, not that it's planned at all, it just emerges. And with that emergence, we all start to get a little piece of this facet that facet, and it's really interesting. Charna Cassell: The way that we can kind of set intention before going to sleep, like for people out there who don't really remember their dreams, they can set the intention, I'm going to remember my dreams saying it out loud or writing it down and then, you know, that can pick up momentum. Do you also as a collective, ever focus on world problems? Bonnie Buckner: Well, we don't necessarily focus on world problems, but it comes up. But it comes up [00:05:00] in different ways. Mm-hmm. Like you talked about at the beginning, a few minutes ago of this dream, this book is about dreaming as a collective. It's more than just, you know, unblocking ourself, but mm-hmm. Just quote unquote, yeah. I just shouldn't unblocking ourself. Right? Huge. It's where exactly there, there's, you know, conflicts that happen that, can be avoided and things can be smoothed out. And that can change whole systems. It can change the way teams operate. It can change the way organizations are run. It's so powerful. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was actually recommending your book to, uh, some a, a client who's the head of a a of a large organization, um, and. Working to impact climate change and I, I was talking about it in, in these terms of like creative solution, like how do you access that part of your mind that [00:06:00] can come up with. Bonnie Buckner: I mean, we do teach dream incubation. I haven't sat down with a group to incubate climate change, for example. Yeah. But what I can say about that, and this is really important. The people who've been dreaming for, you know, a little bit of time, not even a lot, just a little bit of time with me. Mm-hmm. Begin to dream of such greater possibilities. And, you know, right now, I, climate change is a big thing for me right now. Mm-hmm. Because there's a lot of people, you know, the latest statistics have come out of the biggest ever climate study. You just shivered, so... you know, people's anxiety is through the roof about climate change. Mm-hmm. Well, I see in many of my dreamers, dreaming of a verdant world and a peaceful world, a green world. Having that image and the experience, the felt sense of being in that is so important because if we just rest in this place of [00:07:00] anxiety, we don't solve problems, we totally stagnate because we just feel like, you know, it's like, let's pull the covers over our head. There's a monster in the closet, but I don't wanna look at it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. When we start to see possibility like that. Then we are much more interested in finding solutions for it. Mm-hmm. It motivates us and moves us, you know? Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. And so the, the same, the default mode network, that relates to. Creativity and dreaming. Also anxiety and depression. And I'm curious have you had clients who have trouble ruminate with rumination and or existential dread and then use dreaming to shift from a, a space of rumination into a place of possibility? Bonnie Buckner: That happens all the time at the institute. I mean, that's a, a key feature of this work is, you know, that kind of rumination [00:08:00] is a stuck emotion. Yeah. So I know you read the book so you know about the life plan and it's about, you know, our life force energy stagnating. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that ruminating, one way I can speak to that is. It's a repetitive nightmare. It's just in waking time. Yes. So all of the tools at the institute for working with, you know, shifting those kinds of dreams into clear dreams and great dreams and dreams of light apply because whatever we're dreaming at night, we're having a, a corresponding experience in our waking time and vice versa. Charna Cassell: Yes. So. You know, my listeners, I'm a somatic trauma therapist, and so my and and a seggs therapist, and really what that's all about to me is exactly this is vitality is the what hinders what blocks vitality and what allows it to flow, and that's. I love that your dream book goes [00:09:00] in that direction. It's very somatic, it's very sense based. So any people listening who are very interested in somatics and don't think like, oh, dreaming, streaming, like this is, this is the right dream book for you. Bonnie Buckner: I mean, people do think, okay, dreaming comes from your head. It's kind of like a fantasy. No, it comes from our bodies. It's our bodies that are alive that are interacting in the world. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I love your, the way that you break down. People have thoughts. You're gonna be able to say it better than I, but people will have thoughts and they, they don't realize that there's an image that came before the, the, the words that they're speaking that informed that thought. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah, like people say all the time, I just did a talk for a group of business owners who we did this simple little exercise where I had them see the image of a challenge they're facing and draw that image and then draw the opposite of that image and then figure out. Mm-hmm. What goes in between [00:10:00] that? How do you get from here to there? Mm-hmm. And it was so interesting because everything they drew as the image of their challenge was common. Things we say, oh, I feel like I'm just like stuck in a dark pit in this project and I can't see the light. Or I feel like I'm pushing a boulder up a hill. Yeah. That's the image we have to shift inside of ourself. Totally. And we say it commonly all the time. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm a very visual person like very play, very playful imagery and, and that's how I get a lot of information when I'm sitting with another person. Right. That there are images that come into the space before a client uses their words to describe Absolutely. Their experience. And I imagine you have a lot of access with this. Bonnie Buckner: Absolutely. And not only are those images sort of like there, we can kind of feel them, but also the body is an [00:11:00] image. And whatever posture, whatever gesture, whatever facial expression people are having, that is so telling of what's happening on the inside. Charna Cassell: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel very, very aligned with that I'm tracking a lot of those pieces and, um, and it's, you know, we all crave being seen and so when you actually mirror back and can share an image that's not even spoken or a micro seeing. Speaking to the micro expression that's occurring in the moment before someone's even aware of that feeling, you know, something in them relaxes 'cause they feel so seen and so held in the, in the space. Bonnie Buckner: And also, you know, words trip us up. Like all of us can understand, even if we can't articulate it, certain images, we kind of do have a feeling of what that means. And when we try and then explain it, words. We end up [00:12:00] using metaphors on top of metaphors to get our point across. You know, that image is like, and then we say another image and then we say another image. Sometimes it's just so much easier to speak an image to people. And I had that happen to me this week. A person that I'm doing a little project with was seeing it going in a different direction and had some hesitation to say that to me because we had kind of, you know, we'd done several steps. Then she has a dream about it. And she said, I just wanna tell you this dream. And she was like kind of sweating. And I was like, okay. And she tells me the dream and I was like, well, then we go in a different direction. I mean, it's so simple. It's so clear. And I had already been feeling it like two hours before our phone call. I was thinking, I think this is gonna go in a different direction. You know? So it's speaking to... that collective, as you say, because we were both thinking about this meeting and it just kind of put it out into the [00:13:00] space. And then it was so easy and she was like, do we need to talk about it? And I said, we just did. You told me the dream and I'm on board. So... Charna Cassell: The flow. You just mentioned something that I would love to go into, more deeply, which is, so you were feeling, you were sensing something and I had the question like, how is that showing up in your body? But but also, so key here that hasn't explicitly been outlined is the connection between dreaming and building intuition and, and building that self-trust. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. So for me, dreaming and intuition are the same thing. You know, I kind of like to break down the word my teacher did this intuition, it's inner teaching tuition. Dreaming is the same thing. So. We call it intuition in the daytime, but it's really plugging into that dreaming self. And how that showed up for me literally is I was kind of moving about in my day doing things and all of a [00:14:00] sudden I felt like, mmm, there's a little hole in here. I'm kind of missing something. Or kind of like a cloud passed in front of the sun. And so I took a minute and that's the key thing, how often these things happen and we don't take a minute. I took a minute, I kind of felt into it, and then it was an inner knowing that there's gonna be a shift in, in what's going to happen. I can't quite articulate how that little hole and that little shadow translated to that, but it did. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. And something to underscore also is the importance of practice. Yes. You're clearly, you know, masterful around taking a minute, and you've been in a practice for, you've been in a practice for a, for many decades around dreamwork. Bonnie Buckner: I have been in a practice for many decades. [00:15:00] Not even call it masterful as so much as that's my lifeline. And I think, you know, for many people, so. We have a program at the Institute for Young Dreamers. Hmm. And this is really important because all of us are dreamers and unfortunately at a certain age in our upbringing. An adult mentor, a teacher, a parent, all of the above with all great intentions tells us. To not pay attention to ourself, to not pay attention to our body in some way. And we start to distance ourself from that. So when we become adults, it's can, it gets murky. Can I trust that inner feeling? How do I know what if it's not right? And I was so fortunate to have a father and a grandmother who... supported that. I mean, my father would [00:16:00] ask me many, many times, what's your feeling right now? Is this gonna happen or is it not? And you know, this is, yeah. kinda a, a side note, but I grew up on a ranch in Texas and when I was young, I had a 4-H project of showing lambs and my dad would turn me loose and, um, hold, you know, pen of a hundred lambs and he would say, find me the lamb that's gonna be sick in three days. So I had to pay so much attention and all of these little exercises taught me to pay attention to. My inner self, the outer self, these signals. So it's not so much mastery as Yeah, I've just done it. It's embodied. And I know the reward of it. Charna Cassell: Yeah. And it that leads right into. The next thing that I love that you, speak to in your, you know, in your book, which is, it's embodied, [00:17:00] right? So mm-hmm. And that's, and, and embodiment. Not just being something that, it's like living fully in your body, but being connected to your values, how you orient, how you see things, it's like very embodied and, and just, uh, becomes how you relate to the world in waking and in sleeping life. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. And you know, we have so many different exercises we give people to help them come back to their bodies. I know you probably have a million as well, like coming back to our bodies is so important. Every time we take a wrong road it's because we've somehow like jumped out of it in some way. Charna Cassell: Yeah, it's, I, I, I was containing a lot of, emotion as you shared the story about your, your dad. Felt deeply moved by that. And, you know, just thinking about what a difference that would make. You know, even, you know, you, I'm, you know, what's happening in the United States right now, the kind of [00:18:00] leadership or lack of leadership that we have, and just thinking like when someone needs to have power over versus attuned to who's sick in this space, the lack of, of, teaching and presence. That they must have had from their own parent, right? That lack of attunement that they had for themselves, you know? Hmm. And so there's just a lot in that image. It was just really so sweet. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. I was very blessed. Charna Cassell: It's so sweet. Yeah. And multiple, but you know, generations. Bonnie Buckner: Yes. And that's why, you know, now we're so adamant about, this program for Young Dreamers, and it's so interesting because we give them a homework at the beginning. Go ask your parent or the person who raised you, your guardian. Do they have a dream story? Mm-hmm. And everybody comes back with one and then the parents start emailing us and saying, I haven't thought about that in so long. I'm interested [00:19:00] now. I, why didn't I ever tell that to my kid? Because often those dream stories are often from the mother, and they're often about knowing that they were pregnant or knowing if it was a boy or a girl. You know, having the sort of sense of their person inside them. Charna Cassell: Well, and it's interesting, like, thinking about the connection between dreaming and embodiment and is, is dreaming a tool to help you become more embodied or... what's my question? I was thinking about how disembodied I had to be as a child. But I have, I've always been a lucid dreamer, like a very, very rich dream life. And you know, the, you talk about great dreams and the distinction between different kinds of dreams. And I used to fly and ride bikes way before I ever knew how to ride a bike. You know, I'd be like riding a bike in my dream and then I'd go from riding a bike to flying, you know, having these really, and [00:20:00] it was really sweet for me to to think back to a time that wasn't safe. Like my external world was not safe. Yet, I would have these awe inspiring wonder dreams, wonder filled dreams. And so it was a way, it was an opportunity in a way. It's like I, for me to be more, I was more embodied in my, in my dream life than I was in my waking life. Bonnie Buckner: Yes. And what's so great about that? Yeah. And one of the things that. I think is one of the gifts of lucid dreaming is, you know, whatever we feel physically, we know it's real. That's, that's really our barometer of what's real and what's not real. Is what's physically felt and the experience of lucid dreaming is you use the words awe and wonder filled. It's also the sense of... capable. Look what I can [00:21:00] do. So if there was a childhood where I wasn't able to do as much in certain times and places in my life, that reminder of that experience of how real it is, of how much I can do. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Is really important. Charna Cassell: Right. When you're talking about the Dream Institute and working with kids and thinking about like, well, how do these kids find you? Is it families that are already really invested in the wellness of their children and the resilience of their children? Or are you working with kids that are also neglected and, and have a lot of trauma? So that was one question that came up because their, when kids don't have those external resources to support them. Being reminded and fostering, you know, those, having those seeds planted is such an important thing. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. I mean, we work with all kinds of kids. We typically, typically work with like foundations that are doing projects, [00:22:00] performing arts foundations that are doing some kind of like creative development with kids and things like this. We have done some projects with, displaced persons groups and housing and, and things like this, especially in Europe, so people from Ukraine and Syria and Afghanistan and, you know, that's another amazing and wonderful thing that children are so... They're little superheroes, every one of them. Mm-hmm. And it's really the adults that take a lot longer to move somewhere new in their life. Mm-hmm. The kids, they just like bounce and keep going. They're amazing. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Mm-hmm. Charna Cassell: So resilient in certain ways. Right? I was just visiting a friend and the daughter who's five, had nightmares a couple nights in a row. So, what's your advice for a parent who's navigating a child who has reoccurring [00:23:00] nightmares? Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. You know, it's so easy to just talk about nightmares to a kid. I hesitated before saying that because just one caveat. Mm-hmm. You have to speak the dream language because kids speak dream all the time. Mm-hmm. And adults tend to adult eyes, everything. Mm-hmm. So, for example, one young person we worked with, there was this terrifying nightmare of this black swan that flew into the. Playground and everybody ran to the corner and it was so terrifying for her. Well, you play with it. So what does this swan really want? Can you find another perspective? Oh, maybe she wants to be a friend. Okay. Is she still terrifying? No. So, you know, you just move with what is presented. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to sharing this episode with them, with the, with the parents. 'Cause I also was like, [00:24:00] what's, how much do you, when you're interacting with, I mean obviously people know you're a dream expert, so I imagine they would actually ask for your support if their kid was having a nightmare. But I sometimes hesitate. It's like, unless a resource is being asked for. Bonnie Buckner: Oh, I don't impose anything on any adult or anybody. Mm-hmm. They have to, you know, be interested. Yeah. But I'll tell you, I made a, a fun little animated video on a dream that, a friend of mine's son had, and she said. He's asking for mom's friend to talk to him about this nightmare. Will you talk to him? And I was like, yeah, sure, no problem. So he said, you know, I've lost my superpowers. And I said, what superpower? And he goes, I don't know how to fly anymore. And I said, " Well, what happened?" And he said, "Well, I had this dream that we were all in a village just kind of doing stuff. And there was one road leading out of the village and suddenly this big scary wolf came and everybody [00:25:00] ran inside. And it was only me left outside and the wolf was blocking the path to leave the village. And I tried to fly. 'cause normally I can fly in my dreams in this moment, and I couldn't fly anymore. And so I've lost my superpowers." So we did a very easy exercise. We went back into the dream and he had told me, you know, I have, you know, friends who have dogs and I know how to give them treats. So I said, reach into your right pocket and pull out a treat. And he said, oh, I pulled out a pink healing crystal and suddenly he and the wolf were flying together. And it was all fine. And he had his superpowers back and I told him, I said, you never lost them. You know, and he was up to, be MC for school play. Hmm. So he got scared about that and after that he did a great job and it was all great. But see, this is the adultizing that wasn't needed. That little piece wasn't needed just dealing with the wolf. And by the way, like you riding the bike [00:26:00] when you didn't even know how to ride a bike yet. Mm-hmm. My friend said to me, we've never talked about a pink healing crystal ever. Like, I don't know where that came from. Mm-hmm. It comes from the collective, it comes from other things that we can sense and know. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, the, the, there's a very specific somatic thing that I would do to fly that I always remembered, and it's like a, it's like a, like my eyebrows raise up and my, my, I do this thing and then I can like shoot up and fly. And so I was just watching you. Is there, are there some universal repetitive movements and things that you see people describe? In order to, to, for instance, in order to fly, Bonnie Buckner: to fly in lucid dreams. Charna Cassell: Like, like one thing. Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Maybe I haven't thought about, you know, what people do to make themselves fly in lucid dreams. Charna Cassell: Well, if there's this very specific sensation that I do, yeah. And then I, you know, way before I ever saw an image of like, astral travel, and then you like kind of see this movement and I'm like, oh, is it, is [00:27:00] that, is it the same movement or... yeah. Bonnie Buckner: I know in my lucid dreams very frequently, one of the things that I do is I just throw myself like diving to the ground, and as soon as like right at the second you think, oh my gosh, our head's gonna crash on there. It opens into an ocean, or it opens into another world. Or it opens into a door or something like this. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: So I don't know if there's like a universal movement. Charna Cassell: But that's, that's what's interesting. You know, people, the cliche is that people say if you're, if you're falling off a cliff and you're about to die, you'll wake up before you die in a dream. But what you're saying is that what could seemingly feel like a nightmare in one moment? Like there's a plummeting, you know, whatever you're plummeting down to the ground, you suddenly, something opens into, you know, all this possibility. Bonnie Buckner: It has for me. Charna Cassell: Yeah, that's, and, Bonnie Buckner: And become an intentional movement. You know, [00:28:00] there's, there's been dreams where I've thought to myself, I've become lucid in the dream. And it's like, no, this needs to, to be different and I dive. Charna Cassell: Mm. Bonnie Buckner: You know, you lift up. I dive. Charna Cassell: So I am curious about sex dreams, right? So sometimes, you know, I'll work with people who say they're not, they're not orgasmic. And I'll, and I've asked people like, well, do you ever have, do you ever have sex dreams? Do you have orgasms in your dream? And and it's interesting 'cause they're like, well, yeah, I have an orgasm in my dream, but I don't think my bo, I don't know if my body actually does. And my experience is that yes it does yes it does! Absolutely. Like if you were to, you know, connect. I don't know, an EEG and like body scan technology like it would show. So say more, please. Bonnie Buckner: Well, I mean, these are probably more female identifying clients that you're talking with? Charna Cassell: Right? So there's talking about, it's like the proof is, you know, not proof [00:29:00] is in the pudding. That's a little too icky in this context. Yeah. So we know what a wet dream looks like for a man. But yes, exactly. Someone who doesn't have a penis. Well, they Bonnie Buckner: may be wet too. I don't know. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bonnie Buckner: Ask. Charna Cassell: Oh, yeah. No. Well, I, I have, and I would say yes, but it's this interesting, what I, what I feel like it points to is that the interesting place of... you know, very linear adult thinking that doubts. Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: So here's the thing. I wrote a piece recently for Psychology Today about this experience I had with a friend of mine. I was about to see this friend. I had a business trip into that town, and I've known this friend since I'm 10 years old and I haven't seen this friend in a long time. Mm-hmm. And I called her to like, set up all the details and she said to me. Don't expect your happy friend. I'm really not in a good place [00:30:00] right now. There's a lot going on. There's a lot everywhere and I'm just not in a great mood. And then before the date that I arrived, she had a dream of us as kids again at summer camp, riding on a, a truck at the back of a truck with our legs hanging off our knees, touching, and you know, our feet dragging in the tall grass a little bit. And she said, she woke up, she called me and she goes, I had such joy, so much joy from this dream. And then she kept it. So when I got to town and saw her, she was very, you know, up and everything. She said, that dream changed everything. I remembered that I can be joyful, that even in the midst of things going on, I can be joyful. And I can receive my friend and have a joyful experience. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So our heads, our thinking, our old patterns, our old behaviors, the things we've [00:31:00] closed off to ourself and our thinking mind mm-hmm. Can intrude upon what our body can access. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Like this joy. Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. That my Bonnie Buckner: friend was feeling. So the, the big challenge of dreams that my friend did so wonderfully is. They give us an experience. But then when we wake up, we have to choose, are we going to allow ourselves to be new, to let go of that old thinking that we went to bed with and enter a new space? Or are we gonna fall back into the old thinking? Charna Cassell: Yeah. The allowing. I also, it, it has me think about menopause like perimenopause and people's experience where there's such a tangle of like, you know, physical sensations and em, and emotions that, that suddenly can come out of nowhere. Their anger, anxiety and and the use of dreaming to potentially shift that.[00:32:00] And is there, is there anything that you wanna say about that? Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. And just, you know, hormones have a lot to play in our dreaming and menopause is a wild ride for many because it's a major life change. Mm-hmm. So as things are changing. We're experiencing all of these different emotions and things like that. So if you can imagine moving to a new city. That's also a big life change. And it's turbulent. It's turbulent in our waking time or trying to figure out things like even like, you know, where do I catch the bus? Or where do I, you know, and it makes our dreams turbulent. So. Yeah, we're having that kind of move inside our bodies when we go through menopause. So we're gonna have these kinds of dreams and it's just, you know, they can be incredibly illuminating because we're [00:33:00] also shifting psychologically, there's a big shift moving from, you know, one major life chapter to another. And we have to also give a little space for a physical shift as well. You know, these sort of big moment dreams. You know, some people go through menopause and they have like suddenly two weeks of like major sex dreams, right? And then it's like they don't dream, they don't remember their dreams for like two weeks after that. And they're like, what happened? Because it's up and down. Charna Cassell: So for instance, if somebody is dealing with, either a shock trauma or just, you know, unexplainable anxiety and in their body. One of the exercises that you have in your book, it's like being in, in that felt experience, like it to be anger, whatever the emotion is. And then [00:34:00] doing a 180. Looking at this, looking at the whatever is happening in the dream. And so this could be a waking life dream or it could be a sleep time dream, I'm imagining. And being with that thought, being with that sensation or that scenario from a different perspective and noticing what happens in your body or how, how would you say it? Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. So part of that exercise is, the example I used is about anger. And so just to, to use that, to take it off the anxiety for just a moment. Yeah. It's, the exercise is a waking exercise is to see the image of anger, feel it in the body, and then sweep out those feelings with a strong garden broom off to the left, always sweep out to the left. And then breathe out and imagine doing a 180 and see the exact opposite and feel the exact opposite image. So maybe it's a, you know, beach or a [00:35:00] golden wheat field or whatever someone's gonna see and feel. Charna Cassell: Why always off to the left? Bonnie Buckner: It's just a way of pushing things out to the past. The right is moving into the future, and the left is the past. So We wanna sweep those feelings out. So, you know, things that sort of, you use the words when you describe that anxiety thing. Now we can come back to that. Of it rising up in you, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, everything contains its opposite. So the thing around that exercise is seeing the opposite. If something's rising up in me. Then I can focus my feet really firmly on the ground and let it settle back down. You know, we don't even have to close our eyes. Like it's so simple. And I know a friend of mine is a Tai Chi master, and when she went through menopause, she said. I just would start to feel a hot flash coming up, like it was a, a big red ball and I would just push it back down. [00:36:00] Yeah. And she didn't have any problems going through menopause. She's like, come up, and I would just push it back down. So it's about, you know, clueing in again, to loop back to something we talked about earlier, to what our body sensations are, what's happening, and then move it into a different direction. Charna Cassell: Yeah, I have a teacher who talks about who's in now, almost in her seventies. And whenever there would be a hot flash, it would be a reminder for her to ground, and then she would simply. Be present to that and, and it would shift. You know, it's, it can be tricky when we have so many things we're managing in our lives. If there's children and work and you know, that people in, in social media and all the things coming at you for people to see, to be empowered to realize that they can be more of a conductor and they can find those pauses that you were referring to earlier on. Right? Bonnie Buckner: Totally. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: One of the things that we can do, of all of [00:37:00] that list that you gave, every single thing on that list, minus potentially the children, are things that can be set down for at least two minutes. The power of two minutes is incredible. People forget that and they, you know, there's this sort of mentality of like, oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed and that's really big. So I have to do something really big, like going away on a retreat for a week to deal with it. Two minutes, just set something down, get quiet and listen to yourself for two minutes. That's it. Charna Cassell: Knowing that you are worth giving yourself that, right. That, that, I think that's a, an epidemic problem. People just deciding I get to be, especially for moms, right? I get to give this time to myself. And if you're in fight flight, if you're in that kind of, your nervous system is just chronically jacked up, not even [00:38:00] believing and seeing that you can take that time for yourself, and the world is not gonna fall apart. Bonnie Buckner: It's not, and you know. It's not just you giving it to you. Yeah. It's you giving it to your kids and your family. Totally. Because a jacked up mom doesn't help anybody. Charna Cassell: Absolutely. I'm so curious about the use of how color plays into mood state Dream. Bonnie Buckner: Think about it this way, dreaming comes from our bodies. So if I'm having a nightmare, what's, what kind of colors do you see when you're super angry? Yeah, like mocked in anger. Mm-hmm. Are you asking? Yeah, yeah. I'm asking. Yeah. Most people say red. So reds, blacks, you know, when we're scared of something we can't see it. It's murky, it's dark. These [00:39:00] are the colors of our emotions of anger and fear, and so it's the color of. You know, it's finding its way into form in our dream. And you know, it's a very real thing to only see red. People will describe a waking time situation. I don't remember what happened. All I know is everything just was kind of like red or everything went dark, and then like three hours later I was like. Why did that person yell at me? Like, yeah, we come to, you know? You know, conversely, when we have these moments of just incredible brilliance in our life, there's this explosion of color, like really deep colors, beautiful colors. We approximate that as well to nature. I know outside my window right now, there's this incredible fuchsia, crepe myrtle, and just standing there like everything is [00:40:00] expansive in me looking at this color. And so these are the kinds of great dream colors. You know when a lot of times these days people look at like the Hubble telescope colors and it's all celestial, and these greens and purples. We feel celestial sometimes within ourselves, you know? Charna Cassell: Absolutely. Yeah. There are parts of the book that reminded me of, hypnotherapy, like self hypnosis, the use of counting down. To kind of bring yourself into a space, and I was wondering about the influence of that because I'll, I'll use from hypnotherapy using colors or a gesture to help anchor a new positive felt experience into somebody's body. Bonnie Buckner: Hmm, well, I don't know hypnotherapy, so it wasn't influenced by that. I do know that, Colette Albu Scott, who is the more modern sort of, teacher of this particular dreaming [00:41:00] lineage. She used that her father was a renowned neuroscientist, and I don't know if that came from him or her, but she used that to go from looking out. To looking in very easily, you know, relaxing into the body, shifting the breathing and be getting into a receptive state. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Beautiful. The, the other piece that feels really important to say is, is the use of guided imagery in, you know, whether it's healing something physically or emotionally. And I'm curious about that as it relates to dream work in terms of, 'cause again, like there's art. You make a very clear point that we're, there's waking dreams and sleep time, dreams, and that we actually have so much more control than we think we do. And if we conduct these experiments or [00:42:00] exercises through our own, whether it's someone else that's guiding us or we are guiding ourselves, what have you seen? Yeah, the healing potential around like, like physical ailments. Bonnie Buckner: Well, the thing about our inner self is the language of our experiencing is image. So I use a different term than guided imagery. Because it's not about, you know, there are certain kinds of guided imagery, that are quite scripted. And what distinguishes, um, this work of like going back into a dream to address a necessity, for example, is to tap into our spontaneous inner imagery. So from a cognitive and neuroscience perspective, image is our blueprint for action. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: So I am sure all of your listeners have done this. I actually did it earlier today. You open the refrigerator and just stand there and like you become a zombie because you don't really have in [00:43:00] mind yet an image of what you wanna eat or cook. It's not until we have an image that we actually can make an action. Which means that that image is where we can change that action. So if that image is blocked, I can go back in and I can work with that image to shift it. And it shifts me in total. But the thing is, it's spontaneous because our body. Is quite spontaneous. Healing is spontaneous. It's not scripted in any way whatsoever. You know, every medical doctor will tell you, I give the same pill to a hundred people and there's a hundred different reactions to it. So the way our body wants to move to shift itself is unique to itself. So if I am, you know, having a nightmare, that I'm being chased by a monster. And I go back into that dream to shift it in my imagination, and [00:44:00] I turn around to face the monster. The monster may change just by virtue of the fact that I turned around to face it, or in that moment something else may appear that I can work with. So it's really important to stay spontaneous with our images because the body is always looking to come back to a fluid and open space. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: And so it's gonna give us images to help us do that. Charna Cassell: Completely. I do body work with clients and have very much personally experienced how much I've healed through imagery and the, the images that arise when I am in that state. And it's something, it's one of the things that I feel frustrated around, around like... I offer free guided meditations to people. And, but I, I really enjoy the one-on-one. Like, what is specific to you? How would this meditation shift to [00:45:00] what's happening for you in this moment and so I, I don't, I even doing a podcast, doing something, speaking to a general audience rather than like that. The, the specificity of what is going to be evocative for you is, yeah, I find that somewhat challenging. But I love the fact that, I mean, 'cause you're working with collective dreaming. There is a way to do it that addresses and allows for everybody's unique unfolding. Bonnie Buckner: There is, and the, the thing is, and I, I can't say this enough with people, is all of us have the tools we need to solve our problems. They're already inside us. They belong to our imagination. And that word imagination has been, burdened with some negative connotations in that same. You know, period of our childhood where it's like, [00:46:00] climb out of your imagination and get serious and learn algebra, you know, that kind of thing. But it's our imagination that tells us how to solve problems, how to look at something from a new perspective, how to, you know, imagine different outcomes to something. So. When people really sort of root down into that and realize that the things that are coming up in the imagination are not fixed. Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: I can interact with them. I can hear what they have to say to me, and I can also, you know. Interact and shift certain things. If there's a door that's shut, I can open it. If there's a dark room, I can turn a light on in it. There's so, it's so much more playful and we move into healing and balance very quickly when we do that. Charna Cassell: And this piece that you just mentioned, it's seeing what the. [00:47:00] What's, what's the necessity? Is what you talk about in your book? Like what's the action? Oh, it's dark. I can turn on a light. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. Charna Cassell: I could flush the, the, the toilet's overflowing. I could flush the toilet. Bonnie Buckner: Exactly. But it's amazing how much that trips people up. Charna Cassell: Oh, yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah. You know, when I, sometimes I say to people, okay, you're in front of a toilet, it's about to overflow. What are you gonna do? And they just kind of stand there. And they're like, I don't know, I maybe get a mop. I'm like, no, you just flush it. It is like, it's so simple. Yeah, but it's getting into the habit of understanding I can take action. I don't have to call someone else. I don't have to wait for a janitor. I can do it. Charna Cassell: I actually felt very seen by that particular example because I had a reoccurring nightmare throughout my, like a, a long portion of my life, not just childhood, about wading [00:48:00] through, like feet of kaka in public restrooms. And so it's just like this, oh, it's just, it's repulsive, right? And so it feels out of your control. Because you're like, well, clearly if it was as easy to flush it, but, but you're talking like going back. It's almost like playback theater, getting to rewrite the ending and waking life, to that dream. Bonnie Buckner: We're not scripting it. Just intervening. Yeah. Charna Cassell: Allowing, trusting you can overcome that freeze response that may have been creating that blockage. And you can take action now. Bonnie Buckner: Just by going back in, you've overcome it. Charna Cassell: Yeah, yeah. Choicefully going into the poop room. Bonnie Buckner: Exactly. As I said, if I had a dollar for everybody who's had a poop dream, I mean. And you know why you can think about it? Oh yeah. It's our body. We do it every day, [00:49:00] hopefully. And so these things, laughter appears and dreams. Fear appears and dreams. Poop appears and dreams. It is the human experience. Charna Cassell: And we feel so much better when there's, when there's flow there. Exactly. Right. And when there's not flow. Right. It's like... there's, there's something going on. Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Exactly. Charna Cassell: Yeah. And so is there another exercise that you would like to speak us through? That, that we can do around? I mean, it could be anything really. Bonnie Buckner: You know what I wanna leave people with really? Charna Cassell: Yeah. Bonnie Buckner: Is to start writing your dreams and really make a practice out of it and just get curious about what comes up in the dream. Mm-hmm. That's another place where we tend to halt, oh, that was too weird for me. Mm-hmm. And don't write it down or don't [00:50:00] speak about it. Instead of that halt and that dismissal, just get curious what might this be saying to me right now? And play with it, be more playful with the inner self. Charna Cassell: And how can people find you if they, whether they have children that they wanna get involved in your institute or directly work with you? Bonnie Buckner: Institutefordreamingandimagery.com or bonniebuckner.com or on Instagram @DreamwithIIDI or @bonniebucknerdotcom. Just spell out DOT. Charna Cassell: Good to spend this time with you, Bonnie. Bonnie Buckner: Yeah, you too. Thank you. Really, thanks for having me. Charna Cassell: I hope you found that as interesting as I did, and I do wish you were part of the dialogue I had with her once I stopped recording. Unfortunately, that's not the case, but if you are interested around having a more central relationship. To life your waking dream. [00:51:00] You can work with me individually, you can do my online course, or you can join a group that I'm gonna be offering starting in January, an in-person opportunity. And if you just wanna start to check out more about somatics and embodiment and looking at how our belief systems inform how we move through the world and our relationships. You can check out my workbook at charnacassel.com. You can read more about my work at passionatelife.org. And if you'd like to stay connected, you can join my newsletter or follow me at LaidOPEN Podcast on Instagram and Facebook. That's L-A-I-D-O-P-E-N-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. And thank you so much. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together.