Freya Graf Interview
[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Welcome back to Late Open Podcast. During my hiatus from recording , I've been building an online course on how to live the passionate, pleasure filled, peaceful life you want, reduce self sabotaging behavior, and gain control over your nervous system.
[00:00:14] Charna Cassell: Creating courses for people around the world to understand the impact of trauma on their nervous system and relationships, and how they can heal is something I've wanted to do for over a decade. I'm thrilled it's finally happening. I'll keep you posted as to when it's launching. For now, you can also sign up for my newsletter, read my blog, or send questions to be answered at charnacassell.
[00:00:38] Charna Cassell: com. Today's guest Freya Graff is a holistic sex educator and coach and Yoni mapping therapist with a passion for dismantling shame, stigma, and taboo. Welcome Freya.
[00:00:50]
[00:01:35] Charna Cassell: So good to have
[00:01:36] Freya Graf: Thank you so much. Yeah. Pleasure to be here.
[00:01:39] Charna Cassell: I wish that my listeners could see this fabulous backdrop that you have. It's like a, a painting of curtains parting like vulva. And it says the Labia Lounge. It, it's pretty
[00:01:57] Freya Graf: Full disclosure. I am in my wardrobe. I've got a little tiny walk in wardrobe. It's very cramped, but it's the best for podcasts. And this poster behind me is the cover art for my podcast, The Labia Lounge, and um, I've got it behind me so that you can't see that I'm in my wardrobe.
[00:02:13] Charna Cassell: Well, if I were to just tilt my computer to the left or the right, you would see dresses. Shoes. Yes, exactly. So I, you know what better if you were to, if our wardrobes a k, a, our vaginas, no, you enter in and you see a fabulous collection of robes and shoes. So we we're in it. We're in it together. Yeah. So I, I would love to start with, because not everybody, first of all, knows what a yoni is, but not everyone knows what yoni mapping is. And if we could start with that, that would be great.
[00:02:52] Freya Graf: Yeah, absolutely. So Yoni Mapping is It's a modality, a healing modality for people with vulvas, vaginas, yonis the modality I practice is, is called yoni mapping therapy. It's actually like a, a registered and accredited modality. It's all very official, which is quite rare for, for yoni massage. It's, it's a pretty unregulated sort of field and there's a lot of gray area.
[00:03:21] Freya Graf: In terms of you know, a lot of people use the term Yoni mapping or Yoni massage to, to call what they do. But it's, it varies so much. So I, I can speak on, you know, there's a lot of similarities, Yoni massage, generally a massage of the vulva and the internal pelvic space, the vagina. But my modality that I practice specifically.
[00:03:43] Freya Graf: Goes a little bit like this. So it's a minimum three hour session. I have client arrive, we have a pot of tea, we chat, I do a talk therapy component where I'm sort of getting, getting their sexual history and their background and some context for what they're struggling with and what they'd like some support with, you know, what they want to work on together.
[00:04:03] Freya Graf: And then I'm giving them some really kind of key educational pieces around their bodies and their menstrual cycle, sexuality, intimacy, communication. Whatever is kind of relevant for them. And I can tell it would be helpful. I give them some home play practices to take home and start, start implementing to, you know, improve on the areas that they want to work on.
[00:04:24] Freya Graf: Maybe it's, you know, they can't orgasm with a partner or they have pain during sex or there's numbness or crippling self consciousness and body image stuff. You know, there's a lot of things people come for support with. And then when we've finished the talky bit. We move towards bodywork and I do a full body massage to relax the whole body and drop them into the parasympathetic nervous system, which then kind of creates enough safety and surrender to move towards some genital touch.
[00:04:53] Freya Graf: And I do an external Vulva massage, where I kind of start giving them a bit of a guided tour and showing them naming the different anatomical parts starting to get them really present with the experience of being touched in a very therapeutic and nurturing way in this. area that usually would only be touched if it was very clinical and medical and like, you know, pap smear or inspection by the, the gynae or erotic and sexual where there's obviously a lot more energy and charge and there's the back and forth dynamic, you know.
[00:05:32] Freya Graf: Um, there's, there's less room to be super, super present with like what sensation you're noticing or whether there's an emotion arising and just receiving that and observing that. So in these sessions, you know, it's such a neutral safe space. They can just observe, they can just kind of curiously notice what they're feeling when I'm massaging their inner labia on the right side.
[00:05:54] Freya Graf: And then if it's similar or different on the left side and you know, is there numbness? Is there pain? Is there tension? Are they feeling. a hot flush rise to their face or some anger or sadness. And so the, the kind of mapping begins there with the external touch of the vulva. And then if they're feeling comfortable, we move towards internal massage inside the vagina.
[00:06:16] Freya Graf: And I just use one finger. I massage my way all around the pelvic floor muscles. There's, you know, ligaments and tendons and muscles in there that go from the jaw all the way down to the pelvic bowl, from the ankles all the way up and attached to the uterus and the cervix. And there's so much that kind of crisscrosses through that pelvic area that I can massage through the vagina and release tension, release you know, emotions and memories and traumatic energy that has been stored inside there.
[00:06:47] Freya Graf: Start to bring better circulation into the area, oxygenation, therefore more sensation.
[00:06:54] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:06:54] Freya Graf: Um, and basically start bringing it all online and waking it up, activating things in there, creating new neural pathways so that the brain is actually aware that this area exists inside there, you know, cause we sort of think of the vagina as a penis shaped tube and maybe we have.
[00:07:12] Freya Graf: A dildo or a penis go up and in, we might, if we're lucky, have some fingers curl around and hit the G spot, but generally we're not getting the full picture of like that internal landscape that is, you know, the entire pelvic bowl. And so I'm starting to like bring focus and awareness on all of the walls of the vagina, the back, you know, I can touch someone's tailbone from inside the vagina.
[00:07:38] Freya Graf: I can work with their cervix. We can de armor. Layers of numbness or scar tissue, you know, trauma that's been tucked away for another time because they couldn't handle it when the, you know, the event happened and we're just working with what comes up so that can look like, you know, tears. Trembles, anger, it can be cathartic, it can be really gentle and nurturing, it can be very educational because I'm also kind of showing them where their G spot is and this is the A spot and this is how you find your cervix and basically just, yeah, just giving them a bit of a guided tour and an experience of their internal pelvic space that we just haven't had before.
[00:08:20] Freya Graf: You know, no one, no one really experiences that, it's quite rare. So that's the general flow of what happens in a session. And obviously it's different with every client and depending on their unique challenges and things that, you know, they, they're presenting with, like it will look different every time, but yeah, it's basically a really, really cool modality that, that is aiming at.
[00:08:42] Freya Graf: You know, sex education, reconnection with our bodies and our vaginas increasing pleasure, increasing sensitivity and like interoception, you know, that awareness within our body. And and people can get a lot of, a lot of different things out of it. I can, I can chat about it for ages. I'm going to cut myself off there.
[00:09:00] Freya Graf: Cause obviously I'm pretty passionate about it. But yeah, that's,
[00:09:04] Charna Cassell: No, absolutely. No, I love it because I was like I have there's so many threads inside of what you said, right? So many different directions our conversation can go. And, you know, one of the first things that you mentioned that I think is so important to, to underline underscore is the difference between what most vulva bearing.
[00:09:27] Charna Cassell: beings are used to, which is okay. I'm either going to be very clinical in the, you know, I'm just going to be disconnected and someone else is in charge of my body and knows more about my body than I'm supposed to know. Or, you know, you're in a sexual situation and, and those situations people don't necessarily, sometimes people are frozen up and sometimes people are, are, you know, So afraid of hurting another person's feelings that they're not giving active live feedback.
[00:09:57] Charna Cassell: And I just wish that, that Yoni mapping or here we have something called sexological bodywork And I just wish that, that internal touch in that way, that there were enough practitioners with integrity and good boundaries, that this was really normalized, and it was something that, that everyone was, had the opportunity, like it was covered by insurance, can you imagine?
[00:10:22] Charna Cassell: And, and, and people got to know, they're like, oh, and you would go into your, your sexual relationships going like, this is what I know I like. And you felt safe articulating that, like how brilliant would that be?
[00:10:37] Freya Graf: Oh my God. What a game changer. I often think that like, Oh my goodness. Can you imagine if this was just so accessible and so normalized, you know, and it's starting to become more, I wouldn't say mainstream, but it's less fringe now. It's less esoteric. I, I've started marketing myself more to the, you know, the label and like the kind of more mainstream person, because I feel like the spiritual community, the conscious community, they kind of get it.
[00:11:06] Freya Graf: They're a bit more on board, but I love working with. Just your average person who probably would never give this sort of thing the time of day, but I'm marketing myself to prenatal and postnatal women and people with pelvic floor issues like incontinence, scar tissue, you know, chronic tension, pain during sex, because there's very physical kind of manifestations of more emotional and energetic stuff that may have come from, you know, sexual trauma, sexual shame that are now manifesting And so, and it just, yeah, and so I'm really trying to bring it more into the mainstream and make it more normalized because, you know, really it's not that different from a pelvic floor physio.
[00:11:48] Freya Graf: Yeah. So, I mean, it is, it's pretty different, but it's, it's just as beneficial.
[00:11:54] Charna Cassell: what's important and I've actually people have come to me after, you know, pelvic floor physio hasn't worked for them right and I do, I don't do, I don't do. And I've even thought about getting certified to do this because I feel like it's such an important piece, but I refer people out right.
[00:12:12] Charna Cassell: And I do other kinds of fully clothed non genital contact body work. You know, I even work with like the so as, or even working inside the mouth right you can work with the jaw and indirectly work with the pelvis. But there's so much, I mean, I really see pain as a pathway to so much awakening, right?
[00:12:35] Charna Cassell: There can be sexual awakening, spiritual awakening but that it's, that it's a messenger. And so if you're having pelvic pain, there's, there's that part of your body is communicating something important. It's not being listened to, and it really wants you to, to get directly in touch with it, in touch pun intended, you know? , yeah, it's great that you're, that you're targeting targeting, I don't like that word exactly, but making an offering to women in a certain, you know, pre and post natal when I think that so many people have massive trauma and during, you know, during birth that is, is not addressed and not acknowledged.
[00:13:16] Freya Graf: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Big time. Big time. And you know, we often just, just get touched in this space in quite a disempowering way. Like you were saying, like it's, it's, especially in the medical scenario especially once you become pregnant, like it's like your body's not yours anymore and people are really doing stuff to you and it's very invasive.
[00:13:38] Freya Graf: It's very violating, you know, it's super disempowering. And that. In itself, like, is quite traumatic and so often, like, I'm trying to kind of counterbalance that and give someone an experience that is honoring and empowering and they're completely in control and I'm not doing something to them, you know, we're co creating the experience and they're totally in their power.
[00:14:01] Freya Graf: Because, you know, then in a sexual setting as well, like often, yeah, we, we, there's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of expectation, there's a lot of other underlying stuff and dynamics going on there that mean we aren't really able to be fully present and to fully enjoy receiving, you know, touch and pleasure.
[00:14:21] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Well, and you know, you're, you're re preparing the body, right? It's when I think of, I mean, I've had years ago, I had a one session, one internal dearmoring session. And it wasn't, it wasn't in the vein of focused on pleasure, right? Like I've referred someone to a sexological body worker who maybe my client is pre orgasmic, right?
[00:14:49] Charna Cassell: And so they're really exploring, like, what feels good. I was going in so solely for how does my body, as a result of sexual trauma, how might it be holding trauma in in my deep, deep tissues, right? And how you know, we think like, okay, so you can hold, let's say you, like I, years ago, I, I fell on roller skates and I ripped my hamstring and, and it's all the way from my, the back of my knee up into my sits bone.
[00:15:18] Charna Cassell: Right. And I know it took like, it's taken a long time to heal, but, but what happens there in your face is like all screwed up like that. And that's the, you know, that's, that's literally. Yeah, the whole body braces and so it takes very little when you've had any kind of whether it's a physical or sexual or emotional trauma, the body just kind of does that, that subtle gripping and tightening.
[00:15:43] Charna Cassell: Right. And so it could be a leg, but it could also be a vagina. Right, or your, like, your cervix. And you know, I've had a couple other guests. Are you familiar with Olivia Bryant? She does love, I really, really Yeah, she does cervical orgasm stuff and, you know, de armoring your own cervix. And one of the things that I really like that she addresses in some of her courses I think is really important is that you know, like, if you have a cervix it doesn't have to be that there's been some kind of direct Sexual assault for there to be armoring that's held internally, be like sexual shame you know, because of religion, because of culture, because of slut shaming, like all the things, and that the work that you do, I imagine, is also de armoring things that people may not even realize they're holding.
[00:16:44] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:16:46] Freya Graf: definitely. Definitely. And I'm often just reminding people, you know, I know that you're very used to being in your head and being able to kind of psychoanalyze things and understand things and you want to know like why this and how that, but sometimes it's not important and it's absolutely not necessary to like consciously understand something or like what you're releasing.
[00:17:07] Freya Graf: It, your body is really clever and it's wise, and it's just important that you let it do its thing. And with the de armoring, that's really common that. There'll be huge like waves of emotion or releases that will want to come up as the de armoring is happening and they don't necessarily understand where that's from or what specific event or, you know, there's layers and layers, there's intergenerational stuff, there's, you know, the sexual shame, there's the very, the sort of like less tangible, less explicit trauma that's not like, you know, a horrific pap smear or a sexual violation.
[00:17:41] Freya Graf: It's just. A lot more subtle micro traumas that happen over a lifetime and get passed down through generations. And so, you know, I just really encourage people to be as comfortable as they can to just let whatever wants to be released and flow out, be expressed because we spend our whole lives, you know, especially now.
[00:18:02] Freya Graf: We're mostly in fight or flight, we're mostly in a state of contraction, whether that's really intense, you know, tension in the body or just a slight contraction that we're not aware that we're holding, but we're all holding stuff without realizing and we're all way more stressed and contracted than we realize.
[00:18:18] Freya Graf: And so, you know, when you give the body this opportunity, you know, to feel safe, to feel nurtured, to feel deeply relaxed and start to unwind, like that de armoring is really powerful and your mind doesn't have any part in that. Like it doesn't need to be involved. Yeah.
[00:18:36] Charna Cassell: It's so, that's such an important part is, you know, often when I'm doing body work with people that their body could shake, they might cry, they might, there might not, there might be emotional memory or content, but there may not be, and they can be so surprised. By what's arising when, you know, maybe sometimes there's physical contact and sometimes there's not, there's just presence, you know, that I'm just being present with them.
[00:19:05] Charna Cassell: And I think what you're touching
[00:19:07] Freya Graf: totally.
[00:19:08] Charna Cassell: which is so important is attunement and. Like when you just have someone that's whole, that's spacious enough to allow something to move through you. It's like, how often do we get that? Sometimes we're blessed with an incredible partner who's spacious that way, but other times we really do need practitioners to hold that kind of space.
[00:19:31] Freya Graf: Yeah,
[00:19:32] Charna Cassell: And we don't, we don't even know what attunement is or what it could look like until we've had it.
[00:19:39] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So special when you do have that, that experience. 'cause it is quite rare and like the body's hungry for it. Like our nervous system is dying for that. And you know, we need it now more than ever before in the, the sort of busy, stressful lives that we are leading. I saw did you happen to see a little I can't remember where it was, somewhere on Instagram, but there was a video where they hooked up a woman scanny thing, little electrodes in her brain. And they like took a brain scan before, during and after an internal yoni massage. And they sort of found that it just dropped her, like it changed her brain completely.
[00:20:21] Freya Graf: Like she was, you know, in very deep meditative brain waves. What is it? Alpha or and, and areas of her brain that were activated were completely different. And it was, it was really interesting because it just showed how deeply nourishing and nurturing and like restorative the practice is because it's something just so, so deeply relaxing about.
[00:20:44] Freya Graf: I mean, if you feel safe and if you've got a good practitioner about having like an internal vaginal massage, it just, if you feel safe enough and comfortable enough for someone to be in that space and start massaging their way around in there and like, you know, the cervix obviously is connected to three different pairs of nerves and, and the nervous system through the vagus nerve.
[00:21:04] Freya Graf: And that is. Powerful stuff. Like people come out feeling like they're on drugs. They're just so relaxed. They're on another planet. And I'm like, I don't know if you should drive yet, you know?
[00:21:15] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:21:16] Freya Graf: so there's something really powerful and potent about, about internal work. I feel like,
[00:21:21] Charna Cassell: Right. It takes internal work. It gives new meaning to internal work.
[00:21:27] Freya Graf: yeah, totally. Yeah.
[00:21:31] Charna Cassell: a big fan of neurofeedback, which is what, you know, I'm imagining the G Cap that they were wearing. And I think that that's just, just putting a plug out there. If people are healing trauma and they're needing to rewire their nervous system, I, that's another thing that I wish was covered by insurance is like.
[00:21:51] Charna Cassell: And, you know, everyone got neurofeedback Yeah.
[00:21:55] Freya Graf: know. It's, it's not as specifically targeted cause you don't do the QAEG brain scan beforehand and have a tailored approach to you. Like if you were to do neurofeedback in a, in a clinical setting. Yeah. But nowadays, and I've got one, I've been using it, I love it. Have you heard of the Mendi?
[00:22:11] Freya Graf: The headband that you can buy and you just do neurofeedback on an app on your phone with this little headband that reads the oxygen levels of your prefrontal,
[00:22:18] Charna Cassell: Well, so, yeah, you know, I, the Mendi I'm not as familiar with, but years, so a couple things that I have, like, so years ago, you're, so there's what's it called? Oh my God, math hold on for a second. Let me think. Not brain math. So this is, this is my brain pre menstrual cycle. Like I can't access words.
[00:22:39] Charna Cassell: What? Heart math. Heart math. Do you know what
[00:22:43] Freya Graf: Oh, okay.
[00:22:44] Charna Cassell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:45] Freya Graf: I've heard
[00:22:46] Charna Cassell: It works with your heart rate variability and you know, you can have it as an app. You can put it clips to your finger, your ear lobe. If you go into a clinic, you know, a neurofeedback clinic, it clips to your, your fingertip.
[00:22:59] Charna Cassell: So there are these different devices, but what's really cool if you, if you can go into a place where you get a brain map, you get to see a map of your brain, and then as you do these different sessions. you can see how your brain changes and you can, you know, and you can induce certain, you know, brainwave states.
[00:23:19] Charna Cassell: And I have a loose it's called a Lucia number three hypnagogic light machine, which induces more alpha and theta brainwave states.
[00:23:28] Freya Graf: Cool.
[00:23:29] Charna Cassell: but it's I just wish it's, it's, it's an accessibility thing. I just, you know, maybe the, the Mendy is, is really affordable and I hope it is, but I just wish that more people had access.
[00:23:40] Freya Graf: Oh my God. Totally. It is. So it's cause yeah, I did some neurofeedback in, in a clinic and it is unbelievably expensive. And you know, in the end I, I think I heard a podcast with the Mendi founders and I was like, Oh my God, love what you're about. And they wanted to make it as affordable as possible.
[00:23:58] Freya Graf: So it's like 300 bucks or something. Like it's so chill compared to like one neurofeedback session that was like 350 or something. Yeah. Not covered by insurance. Like, yeah, it's just not accessible. Most of this biohacker stuff, like the optimization stuff is just, it's for the very rich people at the moment.
[00:24:16] Charna Cassell: Yeah, it's infuriating. I mean, I, I was really lucky to connect with a person who you know, I paid for a set of sessions and then she ended up just gifting me. She wanted to keep working with me
[00:24:27] Freya Graf: Oh, wow.
[00:24:28] Charna Cassell: all these, it was like, she would have just kept working with me. And at one point I said, you know, my client could use this more than me.
[00:24:35] Charna Cassell: Can I Would you be willing to work with her for free instead? And she did, which was amazing, you
[00:24:41] Freya Graf: Wow.
[00:24:43] Charna Cassell: yeah. So some people are really just like, they really want to help people heal and it's not all about the money, but it's, it's, that's a frustrating piece. But that's great. I love, you know, going back to what you were saying that the, it was, you could see through her map the way that it shifted her, her brainwave states.
[00:25:05] Charna Cassell: Right. And shifted her deeper into her body out of a thinking space, but in that creative or meditative zone space.
[00:25:14] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool.
[00:25:16] Charna Cassell: and we, we all need more of that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'm curious, what was your relationship to your sexuality like growing up and, and at what point did you start to delve into some of these healing modalities for yourself?
[00:25:34] Charna Cassell: What was the turning point there?
[00:25:37] Freya Graf: So I was just totally crippled with sexual shame and there was no like overt obvious source, you know, like no obvious cause I didn't come from, you know, there's a lot of ones that crop up a lot that I hear. time and time again with clients. Obviously, sexual abuse, molestation, you know, forms of sexual trauma, religious upbringings and the church and things like that can, can be a big influence.
[00:26:05] Freya Graf: I didn't have any of that, at least to my, you know, that I had accessible in my memory. And so it was really confusing because yeah, I would have like boyfriends and stuff who would be like, Oh, are you sure you haven't been sort of interfered with at some point? Like the way that you behave and kind of feel like in the bedroom is like, surely something's happened to you.
[00:26:27] Freya Graf: And I, I had no kind of answer to that, but. I think it was just, yeah, layers of little microtraumas, lots of bullying and body, body image stuff. You know, I was absolutely rippled with self consciousness. I couldn't be naked in front of, you know, partners, even if I'd been with them for years, I just couldn't let them see me naked.
[00:26:45] Freya Graf: I didn't want to be touched. I didn't, you know, want to do. Any foreplay, it was like, we go from kissing to like dick and vagina. No, I don't want you to touch me. I don't do oral because that's, I'm disgusting. And I also don't do it on you because that's degrading. Like I had all of these kind of narratives around what was degrading, what was slutty, what was, Too embarrassing, too shameful.
[00:27:11] Freya Graf: And I don't know where they came from. Like they just, you know, they just permeate our culture. And obviously they came from so many different sources, but yeah, I was really, really fucked up around sex. And it just was, it was just getting worse. Until I sort of thought at one point, maybe I'm asexual because like, I hate sex and I just don't want to do it.
[00:27:29] Freya Graf: And, but I, I love love and I wanted the intimacy and the connection, but I, I didn't want to be touched and I didn't want it like I was. Terrified of penises, you know, I, I couldn't, I couldn't get near a dick without. Starting to feel like sweaty and, and, you know, the thought of putting one in my mouth, like I didn't give, give a blow job until I was in my twenties because I thought I would just burst into tears and freak out and run out of the room.
[00:27:58] Freya Graf: And so there was a lot of things that, you know, I struggled with that got in the way of my relationships and my kind of self worth, self esteem, my confidence in the world and obviously in relationships. It was really holding me back like majorly, I didn't, I didn't touch myself until I was like 19 or 20 and then I, I was so grossed out by my own vulva that I put glad wrap around my fingers to, to self pleasure because I didn't want to actually have skin on skin contact, you know, like all of these things that when I think about now I'm like, Wow.
[00:28:32] Freya Graf: Wow. Well, wow. That's so heartbreaking. Like, where did that come from? How did I live like that? And I guess it just got to a point where enough was enough. And I just thought I cannot live like this and I can't keep. Ignoring it, like each time I would be with a new partner, I had to go through the whole thing of like, Oh, okay.
[00:28:50] Freya Graf: Yeah. So like, I don't do this and I don't do that. And I have to keep my fucking, if we have a shower together, I'm wearing babies. And if we have sex, I'm keeping my bra on and you're not allowed to touch my boobs because I was horrified about how small they were. And I was horrified about my pubic hair and my body hair and just everything.
[00:29:07] Freya Graf: Like it was, it was just exhausting to be so uncomfortable in my body. And then of course, like, The impact that I had on pleasure and enjoyment and connection, you know, like it was a disaster. And so I think, I think my gateway into feeling strong enough to work on that was I, I started getting into personal development scenes and, you know, went to a few workshops and I had lots of mental health challenges as well, depression.
[00:29:34] Freya Graf: And I think when I started working on my mindset and my mental health through these avenues and noticing what a big difference that could make, you know, making progress, feeling really excited that I can shift, I can shift the way that I look at the world and, and, you know, my consciousness and the narratives that I'd always just.
[00:29:56] Freya Graf: taken to be gospel, you know? And because of that, I was getting a bit of traction there and feeling inspired and excited and like, Oh, wow, I do have a bit of control over this. And look at me working on myself. I was like, all right, I'm going to tackle the sex stuff. And I started I really threw myself in the deep end, actually.
[00:30:14] Freya Graf: I, I went to some like seven day tantric kind of sacred sexuality retreats and stuff. And dear God, I actually am so relieved that I didn't, I mean, some of the stuff that I was finding myself doing at those things, I don't know how I didn't run for the hills traumatized as fuck. Cause honestly, like there's a lot of seedy stuff in that space and there's a lot of risky, like, a lot of opportunity for being re traumatized. And I did say that somehow it didn't happen to me, like somehow at each step of the way, like I must have just, you know, once I'd tackled one fear or insecurity or done one exercise that was really on an edge and I'd accomplished that I'd feel really like.
[00:30:56] Freya Graf: Good about that. And then the next thing that I do was like just within my reach. And so I never pushed myself too far, too fast. It was a delicate balance. I definitely could have. And when I look back, I'm like, Whoa, okay. That was, yeah, that was risky, risky stuff throwing myself in. Cause it's so unregulated, like I was saying.
[00:31:16] Freya Graf: And yeah some of the workshops that I. Yeah.
[00:31:32] Charna Cassell: want to pause you there first of all, I just want to acknowledge how profoundly courageous it was given, you know, seriously, I mean, you have to, obviously, you know that, but just, I want to just kind of slow down and rewind to the reality of where you came from and What it's taken, and that some people would never make that choice, they would, they would live their whole lives inside of that shame and inside of that deprivation, and not knowing, and that there's like some profound.
[00:32:08] Charna Cassell: curiosity in you and something wise that was like, you know, there's some, there's something else here. There's something else I'm willing to uncover. I'm really curious. I can't help but think because sometimes stuff is ours and sometimes it's not ours, right? There's ancestral trauma that we're holding.
[00:32:26] Charna Cassell: We're holding stuff for our mothers and our grandmothers and beyond like those. micro traumas from our culture and from being conditioned as women. And so that's where, where my thought went was like, wow, you're not just healing yourself, but you're healing your ancestors in the process that you've gone through.
[00:32:44] Freya Graf: Totally. Totally. Yeah. Thank you for acknowledging that. I think I forget how far I've come sometimes. And then I think about that and I just go, wow, actually, I could have just, you know, one different, you Step on the path. And I could have just never happened across this work or decided to change it and I'd still be there.
[00:33:06] Freya Graf: And yeah, it's definitely, like, I, I didn't know my grandparents, I, I know my nan was a gynecologist and so she was like one of the first kind of women in like this very masculine medical model. And she. You know, she had my auntie and my mom getting like nose jobs when they were like 13, they were on diet pills.
[00:33:28] Freya Graf: Like she was very, very appearance focused. Yeah. And, and so there's things like that, that I don't know a lot about, but I'm like, wow, okay, that would have definitely had a massive impact. And so obviously I could feel this. You know, this focus on body image on, on appearance, it was very normal to like put yourself down and put your appearance down and kind of criticize one another's appearances as well.
[00:33:53] Freya Graf: Like the women in my kind of lineage and and I think like her, her, my great grandma was like a pharmacist, so really like, really like in that mainstream medical Western kind of, which, you know, isn't very honoring of the feminine and, and like is not listening to the body. And it is. Yeah. So totally, I think you're right.
[00:34:14] Freya Graf: I think I'm, I feel like I'm really breaking a cycle and often that's a big motivator for me. It's like, I need to break this cycle so that I don't pass this on to my children.
[00:34:24] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Oh my God. No doubt. Yeah. I always, I think of all the work that I did. I mean, and I didn't, I'm not going to have children. I always thought I would. And I really thought that I was doing all of this somatic healing to be embodied enough to give birth. Like I really believed that was part of what my process was, was like healing my ancestry, but also, you know, healing for that possibility.
[00:34:49] Charna Cassell: So whatever unfolds for you. you've, you've broken this, you know, broken this cycle. And, and there is, there's so much, I mean, like sex is a microcosm in that, you know, whatever you're playing out outside of bed, it's showing up in the bedroom. And so the amount of shame and control, like someone else's belief that they could shame you and control you into doing these things to your body for your body.
[00:35:14] Charna Cassell: To be more acceptable or to be more desirable. And instead you're like, okay, let's try something different. Let's actually try to inhabit all your parts and see what you find is desirable. You know, that's
[00:35:29] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:32] Charna Cassell: How's your family? How do they embrace or not embrace what you do? Do they know?
[00:35:38] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah it's, yeah, it's an interesting one. I, I talk about this stuff on my podcast a lot as well, cause it's so fascinating and it's actually pretty cool. You know, I've always been the black sheep of my family, obviously like coming from you know, the, the, the pharmacist, the gynae doctor, that mum's a nurse,
[00:35:57] Charna Cassell: Oh
[00:35:58] Freya Graf: they were very much like, get a normal job, go to uni, do this, do that.
[00:36:03] Freya Graf: A bit snobby, you know, a bit kind of like disapproving of, of me for not going straight from high school to university and, and doing like the kind of cookie cutter expected thing. And so. There was already like a bit of like disapproval or pressure that I felt for like doing, you know, cause I, I've done lots of different kinds of jobs and trainings and none of them were like what my parents would have considered like a real job or a respectable, well paid kind of job that was setting me up, you know?
[00:36:37] Freya Graf: And so when I was training to do yoni mapping. I was obviously you know, fairway into my own journey, healing my own sexual shame, but there was still work to be done. There always is. And there was still like, you know, a bit of a hesitation or reluctance to share with them what I was doing because there's still hooks of shame in me.
[00:36:59] Freya Graf: And I was like, Oh my God, they're going to think, you know, whatever.
[00:37:02] Charna Cassell: Mm-Hmm.
[00:37:03] Freya Graf: And so I sort of kept it under wraps for a while and eventually my mum was sort of, I was, I was studying to be, I was doing an advanced diploma in yoga teaching alongside the yoni mapping. So mum knew about the yoga teaching and I worked at a kindergarten teaching kids and I was doing this yoni mapping training.
[00:37:24] Freya Graf: And so. She was kind of doing the usual, like, so like, when are you gonna, you know, get a real job? And I don't think she used those exact words, but it was like, when are you going to do something with your life? Like, set yourself up. Like what's going on? Come on. Fuck. I'm doing my, this yoga teacher training.
[00:37:42] Freya Graf: I'm working at it. Like, what more do you want? And I was like, actually, mom, I am. I am working towards something right now and I'm doing something that I'm really interested in and passionate about. I haven't shared it with you because it's, it's in its infancy. I'm, it's pretty vulnerable. I don't really want to open myself up to judgment and criticism when it's so fresh, but here we go.
[00:38:02] Freya Graf: I am happy to tell you about it, but this is like, This is a bit of a turning point. Like you can either accept it and be supportive despite what you feel and think about it and your kind of judgments. And I can actually let you in to my life and tell you what I'm really doing and we'll be closer for it.
[00:38:21] Freya Graf: Or I can just. Not share the things with you that are going to make you uncomfortable because I'm afraid of you judging me and we'll just have a surface level, you know, kind of connection where I share the things that are palatable and you don't actually know what's going on in my life and what I'm passionate about.
[00:38:37] Freya Graf: And she was a bit like, okay, well, and, and she kind of came to the party. She was like, no, like I'd really love to know, da, da, da. And then to her credit, you know, I told her about this modality and like, this was eight years ago, it was even more esoteric, even more like no one had heard of it. And if they did, they automatically thought, Ooh, sex work.
[00:38:56] Freya Graf: And so she would have been pretty taken aback and pretty like, Ooh, but because I'd already given her the like, ultimatum of like, suck it up and be supportive or fuck off she tried really hard and she was, she was like, yeah, she was, she was trying really hard. I could tell it was uncomfortable and a bit like jolting for her, but she was, you know.
[00:39:17] Freya Graf: Tried to be supportive and then actually over the years she has become genuinely supportive. I know she still thinks like, Oh, wouldn't it just be easier for Freya if she had a regular job? And cause like running your own business is hard and doing this sort of work is, is challenging and it's not, you know, I can't just get like a home loan easily and I, and I, and I don't have like a consistent paycheck and whatever.
[00:39:39] Freya Graf: So of course, as a parent, she's like, Um, but she started liking all my Instagram posts. She like sometimes shares on her Facebook to her 30 friends, you know, like my posts and she talks to her nurse friends at work about what I do. And she's definitely more supportive now that I've like stuck with it for so long and have kind of come into my own in the industry.
[00:40:01] Freya Graf: And she's been like, Oh, I actually learn. Lots of valuable things from your Instagram posts and your blog. And like, she's listened to some of my podcast and yeah, she's really like come round, but you know, it took a lot and it took courage on both sides and compassion for one another and how challenging it was to meet in the middle.
[00:40:22] Freya Graf: And and for the rest of my family, I think like, you know, they know, but they probably just talk about it behind my back and they do, they're a bit uncomfortable talking about. Anything to do with sex. So like, no one really brings it up or asks questions other than to maybe make a joke every now and then, cause it's just so out there for them, but they're not like, they're not like outwardly disparaging to me about it.
[00:40:47] Freya Graf: It's, it's a, yeah, it's interesting. They're not like super proud and excited for me, but they're, they're accepting enough, you know?
[00:40:55] Charna Cassell: Well, it's really, I mean, I think that's pretty edgy and courageous, not just of, it's not just of you, but your mom, like, sharing with her friends and, you know, what's interesting, so my dad, he went to Stanford he lived his own unconventional existence in prison most of my life, but he was still a snob, an intellectual snob, and and the first time he ever said he was proud of me.
[00:41:23] Charna Cassell: was when I was working at Good Vibrations selling dildos and vibrators. And he, because it was, I think it was because it was something he was so uncomfortable with, and he knew nothing about. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, every, I always felt like, cause I had a very, like, loosely tethered, every once in a while phone calls throughout my childhood with him.
[00:41:44] Charna Cassell: And it was always, if I won an art award, Why wasn't it in math, right? So I always felt like it wasn't enough, but it was so fascinating that the first time he ever said he was proud of me, I was selling sex toys. And, and I took that just, you know, and I just imagined what your mom must be going through, where she was like, Ooh, this is edgy, but I'm actually learning things, and so how courageous and cool is it of my daughter, whether she says that or not, you know?
[00:42:15] Freya Graf: Yeah. I hope so. Yeah.
[00:42:20] Charna Cassell: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing that, you know, if you take the, the Yoni massage out of it. And you just insert like, Oh, you chose to not be a doctor or a lawyer. It's like, how many people are on their path of self acceptance as well as standing up to a legacy of do what you're told inside your culture, inside their culture, you know, and how many people live lives that are dispassionate and how great that.
[00:42:51] Charna Cassell: You know, not only are you bringing more pleasure to people through your work, but you're also, like, living a life that you're clearly excited to, to discuss. Sure.
[00:43:01] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. I, I wouldn't have it any other way. You know, it would be great if it was a little bit more stable in terms of like, you know, financial and cause running your own business is tricky, especially on, on the fringes. And that's probably more what mom would have a problem with is just like.
[00:43:19] Freya Graf: You know, wanting me to be stable and safe and be looked after. And so for her, it would be easier if I'd just gone and gotten a normal job and I had that salary. So it's probably, you know, it is, it's always out of love and care that they disapprove of your decisions and think they know better, but I'm glad that she's at least kind of come around enough to, to support me and see that it's something that I'm.
[00:43:40] Freya Graf: You know, really, really passionate about and rewarded by, and I'm, you know, I'm feeling like I'm making a difference and I'm helping people and yeah,
[00:43:50] Charna Cassell: was the moment that you, because, you know, I think a lot of people, they'll go and they'll do their own healing, but they don't feel compelled. To choose that as a path, right? A career path. And so what was the moment that that was clear for you? Because, you know, I know for myself
[00:44:06] Charna Cassell: before I was a psychotherapist, I was a somatic coach. And it wasn't a question. It was just like, Oh no, it just happened because it was essential for my healing. And so I wanted to offer it to others. Mm hmm.
[00:44:18] Freya Graf: It pretty much was that. I don't think there was like a moment or a turning point or a decision that I made. Like I've always kind of just flowed from one thing to the next and something's presented itself and that's felt good. So I've just kind of taken that path. But with this, I think it was just so essential, so powerful and potent for my own healing journey.
[00:44:37] Freya Graf: And I just saw what a massive game changer it was. And then wanted to be able to help support other people find that same healing and get those same results and like change their lives because now I knew that that was possible and, and like, I couldn't imagine having not done that. So it was a bit like, I guess in my, you know, my healing, I'd go to workshops, I'd go to trainings, we were kind of working on our own stuff.
[00:45:05] Freya Graf: And then there was also little, little components of these trainings where we would be practicing on one another. We'd be doing, you know, tantric body work, de armoring sessions and things like that. And I've always been really into massage and, and body work. And I, you know, often. My friends would kind of confide in me or seek advice.
[00:45:27] Freya Graf: Like, you know, I find myself talking, doing the talk therapy bit quite naturally anyway. So then in the workshops, when we were doing this for one another, and then the, the partners that I'd work with would be, you know, expressing these amazing experiences and, oh my gosh. And that was so empowering for me because like previously I'd been terrified to like touch someone, you know, and all of a sudden I was doing like lingam massage, anal de armoring, sacred spot, internal vaginal massage and I, it was, I was doing that to face my fear of genitals and get over my stuff, but then once I got over my fear and I actually realized how powerful.
[00:46:08] Freya Graf: That was to be trusted to hold space for someone and someone be really vulnerable with me and then me create that healing, safe, nurturing space for them. Like that felt amazing. And I was like, Oh, I'm a really good space holder. And, and I've been there, so I really get it. I understand what they need because I was there not long ago.
[00:46:28] Freya Graf: And then that turned into like a passion for actually like. Giving the work and it kind of just flowed on from there. And then I sought out actual practitioner trainings and official kind of qualifications and stuff. Yeah, so it's sort of, it wasn't a decision. It was just, it was a calling, I suppose.
[00:46:44] Freya Graf: It just chose me.
[00:46:46] Charna Cassell: And what I'm loving is that you're talking about a spaceholder and I'm seeing you in the labia lounge with like the vulva curtains around you. It's like literal spaceholder. And then it's calling. It's like, hello, come here. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm
[00:47:04] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah. I literally feel like, cause everyone's like, so how did you get into this work? And I'm like, Oh my God, well, I definitely didn't like, you know, wake up in like grade three and go, I want to massage vaginas. And I definitely didn't go to the careers counselor and decide to take this career pathway.
[00:47:22] Freya Graf: Like it just, it just happened. And you know, it's been. It's been the thing that I've stuck with the longest and that I've actually, cause I, I did lots of different trainings and jobs and tried a lot of things. It was a bit of a process of elimination cause I have lots of things I like and that I'm good at and hobbies and I did the kindergarten early learning stuff and I did the cookery patisserie chocolate making hospitality like stuff and the chef stuff and I did.
[00:47:48] Freya Graf: You know, the business, like lots of different things, but I just would inevitably get burnt out and bored and it wouldn't be enough. And I'm like, what's my next thing? So this, this is, I remember after a few years just being like, whoa, maybe this is actually my thing. Maybe I've found, you know, my calling.
[00:48:06] Freya Graf: I don't know if I want to use that word, but like, you know, I've just stuck with it and it hasn't felt like a choice. It's just been a no brainer because it's something that. I've just become increasingly interested in and passionate about the longer I do it. And there's always more to learn and more avenues to go down to kind of grow and expand in this industry.
[00:48:26] Freya Graf: And it's so needed as well. It's like. You know, so I think it just, yeah, it's just happened organically. And now I'm like, wow, I've actually been doing this for like longer than I've done anything else. And I'm actually kind of carving out a bit of a niche for myself. And yeah, okay. Maybe this is my thing.
[00:48:43] Charna Cassell: Are there essential components that contribute to a deeply satisfying sex life or relationship to one's sexuality that you would like to share with our listeners that you've come across through your work with your clients?
[00:48:56] Freya Graf: Yeah. Yeah. Like, especially for people with vulvas and vaginas and like the, the sort of female arousal, you know, processes, it's so, it's so complex and layered, but there's, there's something that That I find myself talking about really, really regularly. It's a nice little framework.
[00:49:15] Freya Graf: It's easy to remember and it's just, you know, some people hear it and go, Oh my God, that's so obvious. Yeah. I totally work like that, but I never, I never kind of put it to words. And so it's helpful to, to share with partners, especially like male partners who don't have female bodies. It's called the seven gates of female arousal.
[00:49:32] Freya Graf: And it's just sort of like a little, like a rule of thumb, little blueprint when you're approaching someone with a female body the way that their sexual energy works, the way that those kind of feminine, like arousal cascades happen. It's really important that they're in the parasympathetic nervous system.
[00:49:50] Freya Graf: So they've got the, you know, the dilation of the blood vessels and the circulation to the pelvic bowl and their erectile tissue can engorge and therefore, you know, more sensation and pleasure and orgasm can kind of be come accessible. And we're often bypassing this because we're kind of going straight for the pussy or we're just like having like five minutes of making out and foreplay.
[00:50:10] Freya Graf: And then where, you know, we're going in for the friction based fucking, or there's just like Yeah, a lot of no no's that are happening really commonly especially in heterosexual dynamics. And especially thanks to, you know, things like porn and lack of sex education. So with the seven gates, it's like a nice little blueprint to follow so that we're making sure we're giving the body and, and the sexual energy enough time to drop into that parasympathetic state to really feel relaxed, to surrender.
[00:50:41] Freya Graf: Yeah. And therefore for the arousal to kind of take place and have time to build and then pleasure to develop and blossom. And so the first gate, the idea is you have to pass through one gate before you can pass through the next. And the first gate, not even touch, you know, it's just like energy, how you feel with this person, eye contact, smell, like are there pheromones, you know, alluring, are you attracted to them?
[00:51:07] Freya Graf: Do you have good conversational chemistry? Do you feel safe and respected and heard or like intellectually met by them? You know, all of these like. Non physical, non touch based things. And once you've got that down pat, you know, there's enough rapport there, then we can introduce touch and that's the next gate is like touch of just the extremities.
[00:51:30] Freya Graf: So like the non erogenous zones, they're like the outer bits of the body, the hands and the arms and like the legs and. It's not invasive or, or violating. It's not, it's not going to feel too soon. If you start to introduce touch with these like quite neutral parts of the body, and then you're working your way in bit by bit.
[00:51:49] Freya Graf: So the next gate is like, you know, the neck that's a little bit more intimate and close the face kissing and stuff. Then the next gate is the breasts and the heart space and the nipples, which, you know, obviously are quite linked to. The vulva, the clitoris, like the, the nipples have their own erectile network and they're very connected energetically, but also physiologically with the yoni.
[00:52:12] Freya Graf: And that will start to act as a bit of a bit of a like spark plug to get the, get the arousal going. And you know, the nipples, stimulating the nipples and the breasts, it activates that same part of the brain, that genital cortex that'll kind of get the, get the things, the juices flowing downstairs. And then the next gate.
[00:52:31] Freya Graf: As you know, the bum, the hips all around the pelvis, the mons pubis the, the outer labia and the inner labia are two separate gates. So like the outer labia, you know, it's regular skin where hair grows and then the inner labia like the pink moist bits. And it's, it's, it's important to kind of recognize that there's, for someone with Evolva, there's a really big difference between someone touching and stroking like the outer labia and the parts where it's, it's regular skin.
[00:52:59] Freya Graf: And the inner labia with the pink kind of moist, like mucosal membrane, it feels a lot more invasive if they're not ready for it to go for the pink moist bits, you know, it, it really is nice to just ease them into it very gradually and give them a bit of warning before you go for gold, you know, and also like, The mucosal membrane of the inner labia, the clitoral hood, the clitoris really needs moist, like, you know, either oily, lubed, kind of saliva, something moist and slippery.
[00:53:31] Freya Graf: You don't want a dry finger. You don't want anything abrasive or frictiony or grippy. That's not going to feel nice. So, you know, labia, outer labia, inner labia, and then the final gate is penetration of the vagina or anus. And that's because, you know, Penetration just really needs to be last after we've kind of worked our way towards that gradually so that, you know, enough time has passed for the erectile tissue to become engorged, because that takes a lot longer for a vagina than it does for a cock for them to relax, feel honoured, feel worshipped, feel safe, feel unhurried and un, you know, not pressured.
[00:54:10] Freya Graf: And so hopefully if you follow that roughly and you work your way from the outside in to the center and, and penetration you know, their body will have had a chance to actually build enough arousal and engorgement that they're going to feel a lot more pleasure when you do finally. Penetrate them.
[00:54:30] Freya Graf: So yeah, that can be, you don't have to follow it like step by step exactly. Every time. But as a rule of thumb, that's really helpful to know because it slows you the fuck down, which is very important. You know, like if I, if I had to give any, especially men, like a tip for, for women's bodies, it is just like, slow down, you cannot.
[00:54:50] Freya Graf: Gain anything by rushing and you can lose a lot by rushing and you can gain so much by slowing down and just like, you know, easing in gradually. Like there's no harm in waiting and being slow, but there can be a lot of harm in rushing and going too quickly. So just go slower than you think you need to go.
[00:55:09] Freya Graf: And that's probably a safe, safe pace.
[00:55:13] Charna Cassell: I think we could, we could all have podcasts where that's all that gets said. You know what I mean? Low presence, attunement, underscore, period, done.
[00:55:24] Freya Graf: yeah, yeah,
[00:55:25] Charna Cassell: Drop the mic.
[00:55:26] Freya Graf: Yep, you're a sex pro. If you can just do that, honestly, you're better than like 99 percent of
[00:55:33] Charna Cassell: Right. If you can actually feel your own sensations and turn on and actually turn your attention off yourself onto somebody else and be present with them, you're halfway there. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with the listeners and also your podcast and how people can find you?
[00:55:56] Charna Cassell: Hmm.
[00:55:58] Freya Graf: Yeah. Well, the labia lounge podcast just on, you know, all the usual podcasting platforms. My website is Freya graph. com. You know, my Instagram is just also Freya graph underscore the labia lounge. It's pretty easy to find just Google, Google, and you'll, you'll come across me. I've got a lot of content online.
[00:56:17] Freya Graf: And I, I have launched a, an online course that I'm really, really proud of and excited about called queen out. And it's for people with vaginas. And I created it because you know, Yoni mapping sessions and in person sessions, personal private coaching, it's not accessible to everyone.
[00:56:36] Freya Graf: There's not a lot of us that do it in the first place. And then especially for in person sessions for that, you know, vaginal body work, it's not accessible for many people. And it can be quite expensive to get multiple sessions. So the course is basically a step by step roadmap to learning how to do your own Yoni massage and de armoring.
[00:56:55] Freya Graf: And before you even get to that, there's a, you know, swathe of, of practices and guided. Meditations and visualizations and audios and home play exercises and lots of trainings and content. It's pretty much like my pride and joy. It's got all of my best like teachings and tools and techniques and everything that I would be working with people when I'm working with them privately, but I've put it into a, an online program so that it's accessible for all.
[00:57:23] Freya Graf: And then it works towards eventually doing your own body work and training your body to have. Multiple orgasms in various ways, release trauma, release tension, you know, rewrite the narratives around sex, release shame. It's, it's just like, Oh, I'm so, I'm so I'm pumped about it. Like to toot my own horn, it took me a year to make and it's like, it's everything, you know?
[00:57:48] Freya Graf: So I'm really, I'm really excited about that. So that's online. And it's just on my website as well under online course, if people are interested and I can give you I'll give you. You and your listeners like a discount code as well, if you like to put in the show notes. Yeah.
[00:58:02] Charna Cassell: And that's great that I'll also include that in my newsletter, which I, I send that out as a resource, like, so just stay in ongoing touch with me. I really like to offer a lot of free resources And I know what that takes to create a course. Congratulations. That's awesome. I love that.
[00:58:20] Freya Graf: Thank you,
[00:58:21] Charna Cassell: accomplishment. Yeah.
[00:58:25] Freya Graf: Yeah. Thanks babe
[00:58:26] Charna Cassell: . So good to get to spend a little time with you. I
[00:58:29] Freya Graf: Yeah, you too. I'm glad we could make it happen
[00:58:32] Charna Cassell: Was that as good for you as it was for me? If it was, we'd love it if you'd please rate and review it and share it with your friends so others can find us. If you have additional questions about living a vibrant life after trauma, we'd You can submit them at charnacacell.
[00:58:49] Charna Cassell: com. Follow me at Laid Open Podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionatelife. org. You can also sign up for my newsletter to stay informed. This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host, Charna Cassell. Until next time, keep coming.
