Show Notes
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Today's guest is Walter SIPE.
Walter SIPE was a pediatric gastroenterologist before switching gears and becoming a psychiatrist. He has a private practice, he also testifies as an expert witness in cases focused around trauma and child sexual abuse. Welcome, Walt.
Life is about to
start
the trauma extension
is a great
honor to serve.
Thank you Charna happy to be here. So glad to have you. And also to give you some context, Walt is not only a psychiatrist that I trust and refer my clients to. He's also a good friend and someone that I thoroughly adore. So happy to have you here. It's mutual Charna. You know, I have particular curiosity and interest in your work as an expert witness. And I know that it's tricky because there might be certain things you can talk about and other things you can't write. Right? And so in terms of how much you can share how much detail you can get into, obviously, if it's an active case, you can't and I'm curious, I know this, but I would love for you to share with our listeners, how did you come to this work? How did you start the process of testifying? What compels you
to do it? Right? Well, it's an interesting story. And this is in some ways, this was passed down as the family business to kind of go to the beginning. You know, my father was actually a Benedictine monk, and then a priest. And he developed an interest in pastoral counseling and became a therapist. Initially, it was a therapist at the same time, he was a priest, and met my mom who was a nun at the time in the late 60s at a Catholic psychiatric hospital in Baltimore. And even though he got married, he left the active priesthood. He was very interested in the practice of Catholic celibacy, both how its practiced and oftentimes being practiced in the breech. So, he wrote several books about the practice of Catholic celibacy. I think initially, with the idea of being of service to the church, probably not surprising to most of your listeners, the church didn't want what he was telling, and essentially was banned for speaking on church property for many years. And this was the late 80s, early 90s. And around that time, the very first cases of plaintiffs that were kind of like launching complaints against creased abusers started to come out. And many of the early plaintiff's attorneys that were involved in that work, found my father's work and started hiring him as an expert witness really on how the church practices celibacy, how they keep documents.
And so that really developed kind of in the late 90s, in the early 2000s. He was, I think, involved in hundreds of cases, for any of your listeners who have seen the movie spotlight. He's He's not characterized as a physical character, but he voice on the phone actually giving information to the Boston Globe team who really eventually revealed on kind of an international stage, the degree to which institutional cover ups were really underlying pre sex abuse. So that kind of feels long, but it's as brief as I can be. So through that, when I switched into psychiatry out of pediatric gastroenterology around 2011 2012, I was asked to give a couple of talks to some of these attorneys groups on how memory and trauma functions the neurobiology of trauma, some of the physical health effects of trauma
and through that I became introduced to some of these plaintiffs attorneys. And so I was retained on many of those cases. So I didn't I certainly didn't seek out being an expert witness, particularly not in the domain specifically of adult survivors of sex abuse, and I do other work as well. But that has become that was predominant because of that connection with my father. Yeah, I actually really hope at some point, I don't know if you're interested in writing a book, but it's so compelling. And this idea of this kind of legacy of service is very profound. Right? You're not a it's not like my dad was a cobbler. And so am I, you know, it's a pretty intense legacy.
Yeah, the joke, celibacy is not hereditary. But yeah, despite all that, there is interesting parallels with my father that, you know, maybe go down that cul de sac, but the more psychologically minded your listeners would be can can guess that, you know, so, along a more personal line, I'm really curious, did you know what your dad was doing when you were growing up? Didn't track the dates? Like, is he doing that work? When your sense of it, right? I mean, certainly not the depth wasn't really involved in the academic world. And it's quite interesting. You know, there's the talk show circuit. And back at that time, there was Montel Williams, and Donahue Oprah was when she was doing kind of a more classic talk show. And so when his first book came out, I think it was somewhat sensationalized. So it got on the talk shows, because, you know, he estimated only about 50% of crease at any one time, or even practicing the letter of celibacy, let alone the kind of the higher spiritual practice of it. And he also estimate at that time, about 6%, of active priests were sexually active with minors. And of course, at that time that felt like a kind of like, scandalous, sensationalized number. And I think that over the past couple of decades, that's pretty much been borne out that in most diocese, where there's records of kind of like complaints, at sort of diocese wide level that numbers pretty much held up. Yeah. And did how was he able to get the act? Did he have access to the information about the complaints and things like that? Like, how did he assess in some cases, you know, I mean, in his work as a therapist, when he was working at a place called St. psychiatric institute, you know, he basically saw off hundreds of either priests, sexual partners, of priests, victims of priests, individuals, so he kind of got it from all angles. He described his methodology as sort of ethnographic he was really moved by the work of Margaret Mead. So he got a lot of critique from maybe sort of sociologists that his work wasn't necessarily quantitative, but you know, ethnographic model of sort of being of a culture and being in the culture and really being able to describe the culture from close contact. And that's how he always viewed his methodology. And so I think, as more quantitative studies have come out, and again, it is sort of what the litigation has revealed over the last couple of decades, those numbers are pretty accurate. That's amazing. And I'm really also curious about your parents, parents, and how they responded
to your parents leaving the church having chosen a certain path. And I also don't know, you know, some of this is I don't know this, we haven't had these conversations about how religious their parents were, you know, how did they first respond to them wanting to be nuns and priests. And then when they left, what that reaction was
the most, I think the most negative reaction was from my mother's mother. And you can imagine it's both from the family and actually institutionally, you know, which is I don't think it's very controversial, say, the Catholic Church, cool institution, it was really kind of like my mom that got the brunt. You know, the sort of the seductress, the person who took a priest away from the priesthood. So I know that there was, I think there was some difficulty around, you know, with the family at that time. And the, by the time I had any awareness of family dynamics that wasn't particularly salient, as I recall it, but I believe that was actually that was my mother that was going to was going to be terminated from the psychiatric hospital they were working at not my father. So I recall, there was a story of them perhaps lawyering up for wrongful termination. So it's interesting. I think there was, you know, there was a bit of scandal, as you can imagine, it's sort of that archetype. You know, The Thorn Birds, the priest and then we're, you know, brought together by loves. I loved that video series. It was like so taboo and titillating for me. Oh, my God.
That's hysterical. Was there a big age difference between your parents? No, they're almost Okay. All right, The Thorn Birds there's this, you know, not big age gap. But yeah. What were you mean part of it also, too, is you know, although I went to Sunday school, and that confirmed, I think that one thing my parents did do is they kind of encouraged intellectual and spirit
Feel freedom. So I think there was always I was brought up more with a questioning. So sometime in middle school that I came across a copy of the book, Siddhartha, you know, and so once they start reading Herban essays, early adolescence that that was the end of it for like organized religion, so to speak. Questioning is not something I associate that with Judaism, but not with Catholicism. So right, yeah, you were a little rebel. And so your parents grew up. Right. So your father, you live through witnessing your father, you know, writing this book, testifying, seeing all the things that that that may have brought up for your ad, people's responses to your dad? And what kind of toll did that take on him? And perhaps your family? It was a big toll. I mean, as I said, I kind of started questioning so there was no for me, disillusionment with the Catholic Church. I think with both my parents, particularly my father, there was a really profound disillusion that because I think his work started off as an act of service to the church, right, even though he left he, you know, he left they went through the kind of the Catholic bureaucracy to get a dispensation. So they could be still be married in the church, by their by a priest, you know, they, they didn't leave in a disgruntled way. And so I think it really it took him by surprise, the degree of negativity. I mean, I think it's probably be surprising to others that he was surprised. And, you know, that included, you know, his monastery, St. John's Abbey, which he was very attached to, and said their own scandals in Minnesota. So I think there is the disillusionment process. And I think later on, he's really quite a, he's a teacher. And he's, and he's not very, I think the confrontational nature is he started to become an expert witness took a huge toll on him, because even as an expert witness, your your, the intention is really to be sort of a neutral party to kind of give your expertise. But in practice, if you're retained by one side, the other side's going to do their best to, they try to you and your credentials. And I think that was always very difficult for him. When his credentials, his education, his methodology, was impugned were opposing counsel would, you know, from the side opposing the one that pertains him? We try to misstate what he was saying. I think it was very draining because he wanted to be a teacher, he didn't want to be didn't want to be an argue were. And I think that was was very, very difficult for him. So I think he felt compelled to do the work. But it was also very draining. It's so intense to think that he went into something with this intention of being of service. And when it all comes unraveled. And it actually I don't know if you've seen the cult documentary, The vow, did you watch that? Oh, my gosh, it's so well done. And but just this idea of the guy who made that or who's the subject of it, you know, he was he was a documentary filmmaker himself thinking the same thing. Like he was part of an educational community. And he thought he was being of service in this huge way. And then And then, you know, what he comes to see is like this, his teacher, who he thought was this brilliant, man, it just all starts to fall apart. And he sees through it by the end, you're gonna listeners are gonna have to watch the bow. It's about the Nexium cult in New York City. Yeah. But you know, in some ways, I you know, seeing that the valley, I think there seems to be a kind of almost a genre called expertise. Yes. Screaming. I do think in some ways, the vowel does a disservice to the subtlety of kind of institutional power. And what happens, right, because I think watching that,
it very quickly becomes, in my sense, the protagonist, there's how can we be so stupid? How could we have gotten into this? And, you know, I think there's a scene later on where they're at a coffee shop, and someone's by never involved in something crazy like that. And I think what that misses is not that many, whether it's called sweater, it's a religious institution, whether it's a school.
I think the danger in the poll is not that it's charlatanism. Or it's all fake.
It's actually predominantly, oftentimes very useful, very helpful things.
And that's the hook that allows individuals in power to utilize their power. Right? For example, you know, my father, it's like, he got an education. He escaped from an abusive household. He loved the sense of ritual. He loved the sense of history, there's a sense of belonging and oftentimes this belonging and so there's, you know, the Catholic Church has done I'm not certainly not getting get into if they do
I'm wearing good or bad in history. But I think there's very clearly it's, you know, there's charitable goods. And I think oftentimes,
the very real good that any organization does becomes then the justification for the bad the sort of the ends justifying the means.
And, you know, I think that's something very similar that we miss, particularly I know you're, you're wanting to talk a little bit about cults, but I think what people miss is they say, Oh, that would never happen to me. And I think that is often reinforced, because when we come forth with the sensational practices are the abuses, it seems obvious that we wouldn't just go for that. But what we often miss is there's oftentimes people find a sense of like, maybe there's some psychological practices that are really valid, right, that a CBT therapist would say, that's a positive reframe, oh, yeah, there might be a sense of belonging, or real true attachment, or sense of loyalty and support from others, that somebody who has been bullied
may never have experienced in their life. And I think when we look at any kind of whether it's a call, whether it's institution, it's not so much way too good against the bad, that's not what I'm trying to say. But that, oftentimes, there really is something of value, that it's very understandable that an individual would want and I think more to the point, not everybody ends up victimized. That's right. We think the Catholic Church and there's been
1000s of, for example, young people have been horribly victimized. And yet, there's many people who go to church, they were never abused, and they find a sense of ritual.
If we look at something like Nexium, there's probably a number of people who went to a workshop got motivated to like, find a new job and have a conversation or like, Hey, that was great. I didn't get into deep. And I think that subtlety is often missed. But I think it's important to bring that subtlety out, because it starts to explain how power can then be abused, wrong, and the abusive, deceitful power, it's often power that comes from offering
a lot of value, a lot of legitimate value. And then using the attachment, that legitimate value, and then making a left turn for purposes they're serving now, the institution and not the individual. Absolutely. And, you know, even I think I thought that they did it, well actually Nexium, there was the what 7000, I can't remember the number 700,000 what the number was, but a lot of people were served and found value. And there are a lot of different things like, you know, what even say, landmark being one of them that some people go like, that's a cult, but a lot of people have gotten tremendous value from it. And
that, I think we like to think, well, I have enough ego strength, right? Like, I have a strong enough sense of self that if I was in a situation, that is considered a spiritual community, sexual liberation community, self evolution, community, whatever it is that I would not fall prey to a situate. And then maybe there is something to that. It's like that certain things make someone more vulnerable. And I'm very curious about that. But I think that you're right around this piece of not judging or assuming, like, Who can that happen to? Like, there are people who may judge someone who's sexually assaulted, and be like, well, I'd never put myself in that situation. It's like, well, that that could happen anywhere. You don't know. You know, you don't know what could happen. Right? Yeah. And if so, that's oftentimes the damage. And I've worked on several cases, where the real damage of the sexual assault is, in fact, the very sudden and overwhelming disconfirmation of that belief. I, I can't believe like, it's almost like that belief from before. I would never let this happen to me, becomes weaponized after the assault.
How could I have let that happen to me? I was never gonna let I know. I would have said no. And yet there I was frozen. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know how to react really.
When we talk about trauma, the worst damages of the trauma are the ones in which a victim doesn't attribute to the trauma. What I mean by that is, if somebody you know, is having a flashback or somebody's like, I'm angry, they might be angry at their abuser. But it's often the shame with this is the part that was my fault. That really is the part that is you know, as therapists that we have to work the most deeply with and that's the part that's often the most
resting. Right? Well, and I think of shame as a, you know, as humans, we have such a hard time with powerlessness. Like it's the most intolerable thing we can deal with. It feels like like close to death, we're helpless. We're out of control. And that shame gives us a false sense of power. That if I could blame myself as a four year old, like, I should have said, No, I should have fought back. And the reality of I wasn't strong enough. You know, I think most therapists shame is one of the most challenging things to deal with. When I've thought about that, to me, where I really see shame showing up it's not so much with powerlessness, but with confusion, right length, in other words,
oftentimes, shame arises when there is something that's so overwhelming talking with little kids. It just doesn't make sense. Sure. How can this be happening? And the only way to make sense of the world is there's something so bad going on?
Well, it must be. If there's something wrong here must be something wrong with me. It's almost a protection from confusion. Because I think that there is something tricky about powerlessness, because we know in trouble and people feel immobilized and they can't act.
That can be very difficult, right, that can often engender bad trauma. Right?
Although I do notice there's something else oftentimes, it's even worse is I have worked with people where they've been subjected to quite obviously coercive violence, right? Through this. And sometimes when there is a sense of moral clarity, like I had no choice, I was powerless, but almost that, but I had to comply.
It's easier to externalize what happened versus somebody who was like, could I have said, No?
Did I drink too much? Was I flirting? That, to me is oftentimes even worse than powerlessness is ambiguity that what could I have done differently?
Did I want that? Did I like why me and why not others? That needs I think, literally, in institutional cases, where there's often a sense of a victim revering the,
you know, the abuser. When you say institutional cases, your meaning like in schools, or churches or religious organization, sports, anytime, where you already have a pre existing kind of power hierarchy, that's not necessarily inappropriate, right? In schools, there shouldn't be a hierarchy between a student and a teacher, it's just that in those situations, then that means that there has to be a mindfulness of that power. Right? Well, and then there's the setup.
For I'm being graded, I'm being judged or evaluated, I need to do it right, I want to be a good girl or boy, you know. So that dynamic is built in.
I just want to mention something because your listeners, you know, kind of may be aware of like, I will sometimes when we're when referring to individuals who have who've suffered a trauma, interpersonal trauma, whether it's sexual, or, you know, sometimes we use the word victim, sometimes we use the word survivor. And I think that they're both applicable in certain times, I noticed that for me, when working with individuals, I will tend to use the word victim, when what's alive for somebody is self blame, right? Because I think the victim carries connotations. And one of the connotations is, it happened to you, you're not to blame. And so sometimes I think it's important too, for people as part of their gross history to kind of recognize I was victimized.
The downside of victim is that it tends to emphasize the aspect of powerlessness, right, right. So I think that there's often a progression from somebody recognizing Wait, this wasn't my fault. I was the victim power was exerted over me, too. And now that's in the past now that's in the past, I can take on the ended identity from it's my fault to I was a victim to now I'm a survivor, I'm Screw this, I'm alive. And those traumatic adaptations that got me through something, I can start to shed those and find new ways of actually expressing life. I just want to name that because I know that some people have that mindset of victim to meeting and I think it can be in certain situations, but I think it's also important, particularly for people who are still dealing with a lot of shame to recognize that piece of like, before you can move on, you have to give up that it was my fault. Right? Well, the starting place being acceptance of what lies and that's part of that thing. Like I know for me personally, even being a woman, being able to fully own being a woman was a really and my femininity was a really hard thing to do.
Because I associated that with vulnerability and powerlessness, right. And so and even on a clinical level like for myself working with, with clients with them. So a therapist, emotions that arise in them as they're working with a client is called countertransference. I'm not speaking this to you, obviously, Walt, but to the listeners. And so countertransference that once showed up for me working with a client that was so helpful, I really saw some stuff about myself was they said, Can't it all happen while I'm asleep, like I was doing body work with them, and they kept falling asleep. And it brought up so much for me and what I realized she because she had a princess fantasy, like she just wanted to be rescued. And it really tapped into the part of me that had not let myself be vulnerable and had not let myself surrender to any was like, I can be a queen, but I cannot be a princess, you know. And so being with that vulnerability is a massive part of the healing process. And so to be able to acknowledge, I was, I was powerless in that situation.
Right? My body, it can feel like your body betrayed you when you freeze. Right? Right. But instead, it's like, oh, there's a, you know, my, my cerebellum assessed. This was what you have to do to survive this situation, you are not strong enough to fight or run away, you know? So yeah, no, I think these distinctions are all really important.
So coming back to
your work, testify testifying. And what have you learned? What have you taken away from being a part of this? And? And what told has it taken on you?
I'm still willing to the second part of that question. It's still trying to figure that out. You know, I think it's someplace probably the total can be can be hidden, as you know, I've been dealing with some physical complaints. Oh, yeah. And I can't say for sure that they're related. But I certainly can't say that they're that they're unrelated. I think, you know, more Morse, specifically, art of this work that I'm dealing with, is it really,
it's very challenging to actually sit with the people that have been with the extremes of what we might call human cruelty.
I think particularly the individuals where there's, it's been the kind of the institutional, right, where they're in some kind of structure, whether it's a school, whether it's a religious organization, where it's not just they were abused as an event, or abused by someone as an individual, but literally the entire
how they've been living is kind of constantly traumatic, right. And to some degree, it's like working with, I'll give more specific examples. But like, you know, working with the veterans coming back from, for example, Afghanistan, or Iraq, where the, for example, improvised explosive devices were such a constant presence, that even if they go out, sort of, say, beyond the wire, they have to wear their body armor, they have to be so vigilant. And you know, if you look it on video could be a routine, boring, just kind of a car is driving around. But everyone on there, that kind of constant threat that at any moment. And I think this is what happens, oftentimes, I've seen is that you have individuals who have been abused as events, and we think of that as the trauma. But when you get in an environment where the trauma could happen at any time where you could be abused, where you could be beaten, that itself is this kind of chronic stress that you can never, ever let your system down for a moment. And the toll that that takes I think, is just so enormous. And it's not intuitive for people who haven't experienced that. What's remarkable about that Walt is so you know, you're you're speaking to extreme situations. And you've probably seen this as well, that as therapists, you could have a client who
their father had a loud voice and would yell, and that was the extent of it. But what that created in that particular kid, not every kid, but that particular kid's nervous system, the not knowing will I be hit, or maybe hit their parent lost their temper in a situation that didn't make any sense to them, because it's really not about them. It's about something that happened at work, that this feeling of like, When am I going to have done something wrong? What did I do what is wrong? I don't the not knowing
in itself. So if a kid can grow up and have, you know, cortisol running through their system as a result of just being yelled at, let alone you know, so it doesn't have to be a comparison thing. Right. But
as someone who grew up with a lot of developmental trauma, birth
trauma, sexual abuse, etc.
It was eye opening for me to go like, wow, it helped me stop minimizing my own experiences because we can, no matter how bad it is people, I think always say, well, it could have been worse.
And which is true? Yeah. I wouldn't know if that well, and to Zen go like, wow, like, we are just really, we are really different beings. And we come in and like, what is one person has just a more sensitive nervous system than another, we're not all the same. What impacts one person? I mean, there are things that we can measure that we know that will more likely cause long term PTSD or complex trauma.
But what's amazing, and it comes into a whole conversation about resilience, right, like, Well, why do four kids in the same family under the same circumstances?
You know, respond differently to treatment? Right? There's so many factors. Right. I think what you're pointing to to pull out from there, I think so much of the kind of the work as an expert witness trying to clarify matters for the court cases that we're sort of wired to ask the question, What happened to you like what happened? Because we can see that we understand the external world, right. And we couldn't get that from physical trauma. What happened? I got in a car accident, I broke my arm, you know. But with a particularly with trauma, that's not purely physical work, at least the physical effects are, it's sort of a level of brain chemistry that's not really accessible to us. It's not what happened to you. It's, what's the reaction? How did you have to cope with what happened to you? And really, I think that's a shift.
So there's a little bit more awareness, I think, culture, but really, the trauma isn't what happened? Yes, it's the response to what happens, right. And that's why one person's trauma can be another person school of hard knocks. Right? You know, I mean, people kind of say to that, which does not kill me makes me stronger, sometimes.
Or, you know, it leaves you scarred and battered. So there's like any adversity, when it's manageable, actually can build resilience. And we actually know this, right? We have this intuitively that, you know, if you have a hyper attuned parents, since a child never has the experience of being misunderstood, they never have the experience of being alone. They actually don't do well as adults. Yes, wearables where they're never going to get that again. And then what would be for most people like a sort of a trivial misunderstanding feels like a disaster.
But we do know there's something called stress inoculation, that normal healthy development involves a series of manageable stresses
that allow for an adaptive response that gives us the opportunity to then respond to the next stress. And I think with trauma, I kind of give the idea that
we can often think so too little stress leaves us without any capacity. It's a little bit like weightlifting, if you send an astronaut into space.
These men and women are some of the, you know, most well trained pessimists, you know, on the earth, they come back from a zero gravity environment, they can barely walk, their heart has lost capacity, they have premature osteoporosis, because they don't have the stress of gravity, their bodies no longer adapted, we think about when individuals go into the gym. They induces stress that then causes an adaptive response. Right. But as I say, people Trump but you develop get better at catching pianos, no matter what you practice.
And I think this is important understand is what's that difference between a stress that at the time was manageable, was there support for it? This is a big issue, right? For many people. The difference between a trauma and something that gains resilience wasn't what happened.
But what did the Carrick How did the caregiver help them process it? Exactly. That's so great. So the same event with a parents that said, What happened to you know, this was your fault. How are we going to deal with it can actually be a growth opportunity?
where someone's like, I don't believe you. Why did you let that happen? That's often where the trauma lies. It's not in the event. It's in the person, particularly children, but this goes across ages, it's when the person who suffered a potential trauma seeks care, right? When the care is received, that can be transformative. When there's a sense of invalidation. It's often that's the moment where that event gets actually encoded as trauma. I'll never forget, I'll never seek help. Again, no one cares for me. It takes it from a specific event, and then it becomes generalized into something that then lives in their life.
As a trauma and lives in their, you know, the it supports the shame. Right. And that's such a, that's a huge piece that I think about in terms of the work you're doing. And the you know, the cover ups, the institutional cover ups of this kind of stuff, the amount of gaslighting that's happening on an on a institutional level to make kids feel like what's happening is crazy. And it didn't happen. Coming back to I want to circle back to cults. Because this is something and what do you think about like, what are some of the distinctions that make the difference between a legitimate learning community a place where people might be seeking sexual healing and sexual freedom, right, there's so many in the Bay Area. And I know that we have a lot of friends that have participated in these things. And I know that I've flirted with some and
you know, and even my, even the Strozzi Institute where I went to school, there's a lot of jargon that came from from Assad and stuff like that. So people would be like, Oh, that's a cult. Because there's distinct language that's kind of alienating to other people. What do you say to those folks that would say, well, that's a cult, like, what makes the distinction between?
Well, let me just preface this by saying, you know, I mean, there's academics that study cults that they're they have their practices are, quote, deprogramming, and I'm certainly don't have that, as you pointed out with being mental health professionals in the Bay Area, we're interfacing with people that are constantly, you know, doing workshops and things like that. So to me, I would say there's a couple features. One is when
personality starts to trump the teaching, right?
And in other words, and I think this is what you see oftentimes, is we're saying what gets people into coats, it's not that there's a charlatanism, it's actually there's something of value. There's often a teaching that has value, but at some point, the attention whether the attention is structured so that it starts to shift to the teacher, rather than the teaching. And I think this is where you often see that pivot. People get in,
they respond to a teaching, and then it shifts to the teacher. And I think that's where people can lose themselves, right? Like, how did I get into this? Well, how they got into it, is that there was some sort of teaching value, this practice has had a concrete value in my life, whether it's a sexual practice, if it's some kind of like, psychological reframing practice. But then what happens naturally is when people get value, they look to the source of the value. And it's hard to theoretically say, the values in the teaching, it kind of naturally gets tied up with the teacher. And once individuals start to see that the teacher has value, then when the teacher starts to provide teachings, or suggestions, they're not really in service of what got somebody in the first place. But in service of the teacher or the organization, that's where you start to see something that's more of a cult, right, like you mentioned, kind of landmark er s, which is starting in the Bay Area, and is kind of like kind of the granddaddy of large groups. I think one of the reasons it does get nailed and kind of cold call is that people come out, they have a lot of excitement. And their marketing is based on sharing word of mouth, and encouraging people. And that can feel really clunky. But one of the things you know, having done some of those programs that I think is valuable, is yes, they're encouraging people to invite, but they're more than that. They're encouraging people to connect with others outside, right? Get back in touch with a parent get back in touch. So there's a kind of an outward focus, right. So the teachings I do think that teachings are predominant. Maybe it was different in the days of winter Earhart, but I think that there's a sense, where's the call, all of a sudden, the loyalty starts to shift from what am I doing with these teachings? To who's the teacher? What's the organization, that I think that's really the biggest thing that often will show up as a sense of loyalty or disloyalty? Right? That kind of if I'm working with people, you know, for any educational program, your loyalty should be you paid for the program. That's the exchange of energy, when there starts to be a sense of, I'm feeling disloyal, I owe something to this organization to this teaching beyond what I've agreed to kind of pay, that tends to also be a bit of a red flag for me. There's also this sense of the gray zone of how much
there is motivation is involved. And this is where this is not a clear distinction. Right? Because many people find that
a little motivation, a good coach is just that they're kind of a motivator. Right? And this is that gray area. You know, when we think about a good coach
They're known for getting people to perform at a level they didn't know they could perform it. And that's a value in some situations, right? That's oftentimes what we talked about is great business managers, great athletic coaches, great tears, theatrical directors, at the same time, that capacity to motivate is often what gets people a situation where they would do something that they otherwise wouldn't normally do.
And by the way, it's not actually a coincidence, that we see that oftentimes people that are abusers of power are coaches, teachers, theatrical directors, right, because they're skilled in the art of motivation. Right. And I think that's a very tricky place. And so I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about being in a structure, but at some point, people that are involved in organizations practices
has to be
can I be responsible for what I'd be motivated to? to do? It's very tricky. And for some people, that gets very foggy
in the orgasm, gank orgasmic, and I can't remember the exact Yeah, in a Netflix, one of the things that came up there, and I know it's come up with in other, I went through a period when I had COVID. And I've watched a lot of cult documentaries, right. I've been in a lot of conversations, people, but that have been in them or adjacent to them. But one of the things is like how much you know, certain people like Nicole in that documentary, it's like, how much could she get away with, and so on that line that suddenly goes from I'm being of service, and I'm helping motivate you and step outside of these restrictive inherited belief systems. I'm liberating you from being oppressed by
your limiting thoughts to I'm going to see how much I can get away with how far can I push this? Like, what? At what point does someone cross over into being a sociopath? Do you think that they're built in that context? Or that they came into it as that from their own wounding?
You know, I think I definitely don't want to go the armchair. cutted. Nicole, the other client? Oh, no, don't you don't specifically speak to Nicole, but just in general? I think there, you know, there is.
You know, I think one of the things is a sociopath is sort of no conscience from the beginning. Right? As individuals who work in trauma,
we actually understand that to heal from trauma, there has to be some exposure to things that make you feel uncomfortable, and feelings are a big part of the impact of trauma is that the system oftentimes loses its discernment for what's dangerous, what's not dangerous? Yes, there's an avoidance of actually valued activities because it carries a reminder of trauma.
So I think in my sense, the most
problematic leaders aren't necessarily the sociopaths, but they're the ones that sort of take
a valuable technique and apply it without sensitivity.
Right? Because we actually, as we understand that even working with trauma, we're kind of it's this kind of finding, what's someone's window of tolerance? Can I invite you into being a little more uncomfortable? Yes, that we know that avoidance actually perpetuates trauma.
And exposure therapies are kind of like the mainstay.
Now, but that doesn't mean more is better. And that's and if they would, oftentimes is very difficult in these group situations, particularly large groups that are offering some kind of healing from past trauma is that their methodology, when applied in a group situation, is not going to land this same for everybody. It's going to almost be a bell curve. So you will probably have people for whom that motivation, that invitation legitimately was healing, but there's going to be people in that room in that organization, and they see everybody else moving forward, taking risks, having legitimate breakthroughs, and they say, I want that. Yes. And it gets to be too much. But they don't know how to say no, they don't know how to say the shame comes up. And I think that's the real danger. That's exactly right. Right. That's the real danger, I think. And that's the, you know,
I think those are the kinds of group leaders, those are the kind of organizations I think do the most damage than the true sociopath who was kind of literally constructing it from the get go with no regard for others.
Right? I had a conversation with someone who still is actively part of one taste. And the thing that I was trying to communicate to him was exactly what you just illustrated, which is right. I don't believe in a one size fits all approach, whether it's a diet, whether it's a yoga class,
and definitely not around sexual healing. And that if you don't have a curriculum, if you have something that's really encouraging people, like, people who have a trauma history are already usually out of touch with their boundaries and dissociated or their boundaries, or they didn't have the right to have boundaries. And so you put them in a group context. And then there's pressure and shaming if they don't participate if they have any reluctance to participate. And that's where the problem lies, as well as not evaluating people in advance. Like if you're doing these really intense practices, which I just want to acknowledge, like, I really see a lot of value in the practices and certain practices that they taught. But if you take someone as someone who works a tremendous amount with sexual trauma,
someone will come in all gung ho wanting to work on their sex life, but we have to completely rewind and what we're working with is tolerating the sensations that arise when you say no. Yeah, just actually getting a very embodied No, before you can have this authentic, yes to orgasm, you know, and so
without having that kind of training, and without knowing that, it's like, you don't even realize the harm you're creating, because you're like, Well, if 80% of the people are getting benefit, like, let's throw the other 20% to the wolves. But those are the guys coming forward. You know, they're dismantled by their experience. Right. Right. I think that's a good way of thinking about you know, the groups, it's, I think that stands, is it pressure, or is an invitation, right? If there's no invitation to stretch boundaries, it's hard to really orchestrate something that's going to, you know, because stretching boundaries leads to growth. True. But I think that's the difference is the energy of an invitation. You know, I had a teacher who said, If you want to see who someone isn't motivate them, that's a bit extreme. But I think it points to that.
When given sufficient external motivation,
people will agree to do things. I mean, this is just the whole notion of peer pressure that they wouldn't choose otherwise. Yeah. And the more sensitive, the more extreme, the more potential if you're working with traumatized populations, or the more kind of potentially activating the activity is, the more it is really imperative to any kind of group leader, organization facilitator therapist, to be very mindful, like this is an invitation as you said, you can't really have an authentic Yes, unless, you know, it's an option to say no.
And not just an I mean, this is the thing that makes me crazy, like you've ever gone to these group, like cuddle parties, or could be a sex party or any of these things where it's like, we really care about consent, everyone gets to say no, now let's move on. And it's like, if someone is has a history of trauma, and they don't know how to feel what No, feels like in their body, right, literally freeze and can't access their voice. That's the tricky part. Right? So there really, there needs to be very attuned leadership.
Versus this is the curriculum that's going to work for everybody. Right? You know, so so for those people that are interested that are out there, and they're finding these, you know, I think there's a, I can't remember what it's called, but a school in Portugal, that's very popular for people to arrive here. Yeah, it's America. Right. So there are these different there? Are these different communities out there, and they're people that are wanting to seek and access sexual freedom? And
what are some of the pitfalls? What are the things that they can keep in mind to stay awake, and perhaps, stay aligned with their values and be safe as they pursue that process?
I think, you know,
I think having an individual therapist is invaluable, right? Having an individual that outside the organization that outside of the group, where you can kind of get a reality check.
So it doesn't mean you stay away from all groups or you stay away from Ball communities, you stay away from anything that's even remotely sexualized, because a lot of value can happen in those. But I think it's almost like having sometimes they think about the movie Inception, right, you know, where they have like that link back to the like the previous state you have somebody in a sense, it's on the outside that knows you, that has your personal growth and well being at heart and
can help you discern, how are you feeling about this? What are the double checks? What do we need to watch out for then can help you reflect on how do we know that you're dissociating? How do you grow? I think that's really important, right for those individuals, and I think this is true
See, because many of these groups, they sort of have this thing of like, we don't do therapy therapy dwells in the past and worrying about your future. And I mean, you know, that drives me bananas. It's like, it's not like a therapist, we just go and like, tell me about your mother, just so we go swimming in the past, it's like, tell me about your mother. So we can see how you're interacting with your mother in your present day relationships, actually. And I do think that it's, it's a little bit of a tangent, but it's a red flag for me, when I see coaching modalities, organizations that kind of use a straw man version of therapy.
Like, it's some version of like, 1930, psychoanalysis, to describe all of therapy, and then stay, we're not that because the thing about people with trauma, they don't they want to be over it. They don't want to go into bed. So I think it's very seductive. Oftentimes, when some of these transformational a large group of modalities
kind of build themselves as like, we're not past focused, or future focused.
This sounds great. I want to be done with that. That, to me, is where people get can really get into trouble, because then you say, we're not about the past.
But when the past comes up, and it inserts itself into the present, there's no holding of that.
And I think that's an important piece, right? So I'm also looking for whether or not you're in therapy, that orientation towards trauma, you know, is there a kind of dismissiveness of the past? Yes, we're moving? Are they kind of playing on that human desire to just be done with the bad and we're just gonna go right forward towards your sort of honoring of there's something to heal. This is, you know, there's, is there a space where there's choices offered? Right? Is choice built in? How much? What really is the opportunity to participate or not participate? Right, if there is that you kind of mentioned that in the Bay Area, there are practices that involve explicit sexual practices touch to some degree, I think it'd be very useful for somebody to talk to how many people choose to participate, you know, what's how, you know, if somebody chooses not to participate? Do they sit off to the side? Or do you have facilitators that are managing them and are sitting with them, so that they're not being other? And I think those are the kinds of questions that in general, I think would be useful. And anything else that you want to add around that when I think about the same question as it applies to people putting their kids in schools, like all these different situations that you've testified around? And how can I as a parent, you stay awake to
tracking the care of your children?
And the hands that they're in? I know, that's a really big question, too. That's a really big question. I think the place it's less about tracking the care than like, how are you tending towards the discussions you're having with your I mean, I would dare say that in the current environment.
Most schools, if a school, you know, most schools at this point are hyper aware of their legal liability. Right. So I think, I mean, this is one of the we talked about being a hyper litigious society. But I think one thing is that litigation around child sexual abuse is really, I think, had a very positive impact on sports teams, on on schools, if there's a real awareness that you better have a policy, and your teachers better be following it. Like think as a parent to kind of track who's seen my kid kind of misses the point a little bit, rather than, like, how am I'm seeing my kid? Right? Like, are we tending to the relationship? Are we able to talk about boundaries? Are we able to talk about like,
what's appropriate, what's not appropriate? Tell me about the people that you're seeing, you know, like that. I mean,
as you said, this is a really big seeing by now I know. I'm like squeezing a huge question into the last few minutes of an interview. Well, maybe what I'd like to leave people with is maybe it's just the top level organization is that particularly I guess, for parents who have been abused? Right, exactly. There is probably the tendency to track the environment. Is the environment safe for my child? Is the environment not safe for my child?
And I think that working through that trauma is coming back and not being unattentive to the environment. But can I be more attentive to like, what are the skills What are there? am I teaching my child to be resilient? am I teaching my child to manage those environments that I can't directly control? When I'm not around? I think making
that shift is I think the kind of the top level thing, the important one for parents. Yeah, that's a hard one around the topic. I know a lot of people that have been,
they were raised in cult type communities. And so when a parent is a seeker of a certain thing, or sees value and what the teacher is teaching, and then you bring your children into that environment, and because you're getting value you turn away from, it's kind of like with a inside of a family system where you couldn't imagine this, you know, grandfather that you love abusing your child, right? Or this priest that you love abusing your child, because you get so much value or Michael Jackson, would you love them abusing your child? You know, whatever, quite frankly, you know, many people that are that that was the issue. They were hit. They were disbelieved. Right. And I think that this is, you know, we've been having these discussions, I think, fortunately now.
I like to think that there's not this sort of automatic deference to institutional authority figures that there was,
you know, a generation or two ago, and certainly probably not even 10 years ago.
And I don't think this means that we should have automatic suspicion. But you think that at least, that there's that awareness now? Yeah, you know, but again, it's I think it's listening to her, you know, it's listening to the child, it's building, I think the task of parents is often say, when you can't prepare them for any environment. I mean, we just look at how rapidly things are changing.
If you're trying to control your child's environment, that's not going to work.
But it's like building resilience. And I think that is, and by the way, resilience is the antidote, in some ways I view resilience is the resistance to being traumatized.
And the definition of resilience is the ability to manage stress, whether it's physical stress, emotional stress, confusion,
and
be strengthened by it, or at least not be damaged by it. That is what resilience is. And I think that's the ultimate task of parenting.
Thank you wolves. I will I wish that we both had time to just like, keep talking for hours. I know, we got to go and pick all these
conversations for the next year. So yes, you're gonna have to come back and continue a conversation with me at some point. And I'm also wondering, is there any, is there a practice that you would like to lead our listeners in?
When they could, perhaps builds
more resilience? Or what were you going to say? Well, yeah, you know, one, one practice that I came out of my work doing mindfulness based cognitive therapy for depression is something as simple as called a three minute breathing space. And I think many people get hooked on mindfulness, it's like, I don't have time to sit on a cushion for 25 minutes, you know, they, I think people think big, I need a meditation practice. And what's enormously useful is having something that in a few moments, you can kind of tap into your center. And you can even do it with your eyes open if you're, you know, waiting in a particularly long checkout line for exam. So something that's accessible. So if we have time for that, I'd be happy to. I'd be happy to do that right now. Yeah. All right. So wherever you are listening to this, if you're sitting down and you can safely close your eyes, then
the invitation is to do that. If you're not driving, you can let your eyes gaze gently. And if you're driving, probably maybe just pause on this and bring attention to the road and come back to this later.
So from the space that you're in right now, just take a moment to just notice you're having thoughts.
Just nothing to fix or change. Just become aware of just being a human being and to being a human being means that you have thoughts
and allowing those thoughts to be there.
gradually bring the light of your attention from your thinking to your breathing.
Just noticing
once again without trying to shift or alter anything that you are breathing,
and it's happening
narrowing your attention down.
See if you can locate that one point
on your abdomen where you feel the breath
the most.
can feel that stretch as you breathe in
Never least
as you breathe out
tending to that one point
just a few cycles of breath
and hold holding that point your attention
gradually starting to broaden the layout of your attention
until it's back on your entire abdominal wall
now including your chest to cage
including the awareness of your throat
perhaps feeling
the breath as it enters your nostrils or mouth.
Then letting that awareness of breath expands
beyond your lungs and abdomen
as if it were extending out into your limbs,
your hands your feet
on top of your head
as much as possible, experiencing your full breath, breathing your body
continue to broaden your attention out. Become aware of where you're sitting or where you are.
Preparing to expand outward noticing the sounds outside of you.
Maybe opening your eyes to see your environment newly just as it is in the present moment.
Just taking the time to just notice what it is to be a human being just as you are in this moment.
And that's it.
And then the invitation is to try and you know doing that through the week. And if you're somebody who is looking to develop a mindfulness practice and you've gotten stopped already, on January 12, by perhaps expectations that you feel you're not meeting just
so you can just drop into this little three minute breathing space. When do you have a moment throughout the day.
Beautiful. Thanks for joining us today. I really appreciate my global audience. In order to support the podcast I've started a Patreon where I plan to release exclusive content you won't be able to find anywhere else online.
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You can find my patreon@www.pa T ar e o n.com backslash li d o p e n pod CAS T to learn more about how you can support our community please go there. Another way you can support the podcast is by rating reviewing and sharing it with friends in any way that you choose to thank you so much for doing that it's much appreciated. You can also follow me at laid up in podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate life.org Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself
