Show Notes
Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Hi, welcome back to Late Open Podcast. I'm your host, Charna Cassel. If you have an interest in altered states of consciousness, in wellness, in sound healing, in medicine journeys, in healing ancestral trauma, you're going to really wanna listen to this episode. Our guest today, Tanya De Young is a renowned singer, sound healer, and social entrepreneur.
She combines science, spirituality, and advocacy. As a co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia, she's been at the forefront of groundbreaking policy shifts, ensuring that medicines like medicinal psilocybin and MDMA are now legally available for patients with treatment resistant mental health conditions. I have been on my own healing journey for decades, and have deep respect for what it takes for this woman to not only do her own healing, but then bring it to the rest of [00:01:00] the world. And she's a pretty profound entrepreneur and interesting human who deeply cares about helping people reconnect to their own voices, to themselves, and connecting globally.
So without further ado, welcome Tanya.
[00:02:00]
Charna Cassell: So glad to have you join us. I am really, I've been looking forward to this conversation 'cause I know you've been up to some remarkable things over the last, how many, how many decades have you been in this field?
Tania de Jong: Yeah, I mean, I've been working within the psychedelic assisted therapy space. Well we, we launched Mind Medicine Australia in 2019. Mm-hmm. But I've been working like across music and creative. Endeavors and enterprises for pretty much all my life. So a long time. And, um, yeah, very passionate about what I do.
Charna Cassell: And can you , can you share some about how your heritage has influenced your interest in trauma healing, consciousness and resilience building and like the, the wellness space?
Tania de Jong: Yeah, so. I'm the daughter and granddaughter of Holocaust survivors. And so I've always been [00:03:00] aware that there was, you know, something within my DNA and, and just my ancestral lineage that was very traumatic.
And so for all of my life, uh, certainly as a performer and just as a human being, I've been trying all different types of modalities to be the best that I can be and to heal. In this lifetime as much as I can, and to also look back and see what, you know, what am I carrying that I shouldn't, that's not mine, and that belongs in the past so that I can just integrate what has happened, but not carry it myself and not be triggered by everything that's happened.
To me and my family. And so I've been trying things like, you know, all sorts of typical things like yoga and meditation, all of that, and mantra and tantra and hyperbaric oxygen therapy and all different other types of therapies. And then in 2016 I came across psychedelic assisted therapies and I read an article by Michael Poland [00:04:00] in The New Yorker, which was about a trial taking place at New York University and.
The patients, 80% of them went into remission after just two doses of psilocybin assisted therapy from their stress and anxiety associated with a terminal diagnosis of cancer. And one of the patients who was profiled in the article was a, a man who'd experienced intergenerational holocaust trauma. And so, as soon as I read this.
I just went, oh. It was like a light bulb just went off in my mind and I said to my husband, oh, we have to try this. And he also had trauma in his family and I think most people do have trauma either in their own direct family or certainly in the ancestral lineage. And so then he said, well, why don't we try and get into one of the trials?
And I contacted Robin Kahar Harris. The leading researcher of that trial. Who, who'd, who'd been interviewed in the [00:05:00] article. And we couldn't get into any of the trials 'cause we don't have a defined mental illness. Eventually we were introduced to a guide in the Netherlands and we ended up having a, a really life-changing experience.
The very high dose of psilocybin with, with him and the sense of oneness of. Being part of everything, everything being part of you, the connection to self, to others, to the planet was so profound. Mm. And remains so, and has remained so, throughout all these years. Of course, I've subsequently had more of these experiences in guided circumstances, and I do recommend that anyone considering this works with very experienced guides or therapists, because these medicines need proper integration.
They are called one of the five most meaningful experiences in many people's lives. And I've gotta say that was certainly on a par with, you know, my wedding day. Just the most extraordinary, [00:06:00] profound experience of, of healing and bliss and connection that I can ever recall. And it took me a whole year and my husband to, to then do another session.
So then we, we worked with the same guide a year later, but it took a year to integrate. Yeah. What was a very profound experience. And that was what really helped me to start. Accepting what had happened to my family and, and so many of my family members were murdered. And
yeah,
I had been pushing that away.
I'd been like, you know, I didn't want to be in a room. If there was anything about the Holocaust playing, I literally had to leave the room every single time. But after these experiences, I've gradually, received. Mm-hmm. More of what? Mm-hmm. You know, I can't change history. It happened. Yeah. But what I can do is I can just receive it in my being without it continuing to cause me harm or to shy away from it.
Because generally the things that we're [00:07:00] afraid to look at are the very things we need to integrate into ourselves to become whole. And so I've continued to do that and it's still, you know, it's taken an enormous amount of time and I don't think I'm fully healed yet, but I was carrying, in a sense, a badge of suffering.
You know, it was like. This suffering belongs to me, was in fact, it didn't belong to me. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I had to hand it back. And I've, I've handed it back with great love and with great gratitude because I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the sacrifices that my family and, and the members of my family made throughout that period in history.
I'm very, very lucky to be here at all given what happened.
So now I'm not carrying that anymore as much.
Charna Cassell: I'm so glad. And, And I'm also glad you had that your first experience was such a positive experience of connectedness and oneness. Yeah. You know, because it could also be there, it could be very different and, and you probably know this by now, having had multiple journeys [00:08:00] and there's this interesting, you know, the experience of oneness.
And you also know in terms of like epigenetics, that we, we do carry our, our ancestors trauma and our system and it sometimes can be hard to decipher between like what's mine and what's theirs.
Tania de Jong: Yes.
Charna Cassell: And. And then there's also this really profound thing that I believe that, that we don't just heal for ourselves, but we, we heal for our ancestors.
You know, and if you, if you choose to have children, like for future generations, right? Like the healing happens backwards and forwards.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. I very much believe that and I felt, you know, the spirits of many of my ancestors and I felt them. Being able to reach more light and go into the light more.
And I know that might sound wacky, but I really have felt that not at all, and I feel like I've been able to release some of the spirits that have been densely congested around me. [00:09:00] Through this work, but it hasn't been easy work. It's been hard work, and it's not just the medicines themselves. I mean, I've done a lot of other work with therapists and other modalities to really try to work out, you know, what is mine and what is not mine.
Right. Right. And that that is a really important thing that we all need to do so that we stop leaking energy and bits of ourselves. That's what makes us sick is when we're, you know, in the fields of others or we are too. Yeah. Focused on fixing everything and everyone around us instead of really being here ourselves.
Charna Cassell: Absolutely. It's, that's an, it's an ongoing challenge and, and life path that I also walk and you know, where like if when trauma even can start in utero, how to Yeah. Create those separations. And how to know, like even the way that the, it can interestingly show up in the body as like, , sticky tissue issues.
Right. Like, like [00:10:00] you know, even a boundarylessness can even show up in the physical form and, and how you just keep learning how to sense what is mine, what is mine to take on and what is, you know, what's my body versus somebody else's.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. Yeah. And it was so interesting when, in fact, I remember, now you've made me think of this, but when the very first experience of the medicines, I remember thinking that people put their stuff into you.
Like this stuff. Yeah. There's stuff in me that, yeah. It doesn't really belong here. And how come people can just stick stuff in you and how that, how's that allowed? You know, and, and we put stuff in others too, laid through projection and other things. And, and, and it was just really, it's been a real process to become more of who I am and yeah.
Remove some of this stuff off me.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. I, this is, I mean, it's a topic that fascinates me and, you know, I, i'm also one of the concerns that I hold around the [00:11:00] medicine space. I have a number of friends that are medicine guides and, like how trained is the guide at helping keep and create a clean space?
Because there's, there's, what's in us from what we've gathered throughout our lifetime and our ancestry. But then there's also what's in the physical space that we're walking into where we're doing our journey.
Tania de Jong: Mm mm
Charna Cassell: And then how the medicine opens you and how things can come in simply because your system is so open.
So I would love if, if you have something to say about that.
Tania de Jong: Yeah, no, no. I mean, that's really important what you're saying. And set and setting, which is what it's called in. And, you know, psychedelic assisted therapy are absolutely fundamental. So firstly, in terms of mindset or set, having the right attendance, the right guides, the right healers working with you is absolutely critical.
And being well prepared, setting clear intentions without being too prescriptive, I always think, because [00:12:00] these medicines often give you what you need, what not what you want. Mm-hmm. And, so, and that's, that's important. So I think sitting with the right people is extremely important to hold a safe container and then being in the right setting, you know, in often I like to be surrounded by nature so that I feel.
That the natural world is there and that there's not a lot of density around me of, of other people or other energies. And also knowing the space that you're gonna be in, knowing that there isn't bad energies in there, that there hasn't something bad hasn't happened there, that the energy space is very clear so that you can get a clear transmission of what's needed is very important.
And this is why we spend so much time at Mind Medicine Australia training therapists like you with a wonderful certificate in psychedelic assisted therapies, and we've so far graduated over 600 therapists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists, psychologists, doctors, social workers, OC therapists, [00:13:00] all sorts of different health practitioners, many of whom describe the course as the leading course of its kind in the world.
Not only because we have an extraordinary faculty. Which includes people like Gabor Matte, Bessel van der Kolk, and David Nutt and Rick Dublin and all those wonderful- mm-hmm- leaders in this field. But because there is a high experiential aspect to the training as well. Yeah. And people start to get a real sense of what is important around set and setting.
And so that as therapists, they can really set things up in the most connected and meaningful way so that when. Patients walk in that they can feel very safe and they can feel held in the space and free to express themselves however they need to. Mm-hmm. So that they can find the healing that they deserve.
Yeah. All of us deserves, you know, to have access to these sorts of treatments and, and find out who we really are. Mm-hmm. And you know, I was really shocked, like when I first did the medicine, it [00:14:00] was like. I've never looked at a seashell or a tree or the, the clouds or a blade of grass or anything the same again, ever since that day it was, wow, look at all the things I wasn't really looking at fully like I was going through my life.
But I wasn't really seeing mm-hmm. The multiple dimensions that are here for us, and we can exist in so many different dimensions. Actually, in that very first experience, I remember now too that there was this like red elevator button mm-hmm. That kept popping up in front of me and it was like, it was enticing me to press it so I could go to different dimensions.
Charna Cassell: That's awesome. It's, yeah. Did you, very cool. Did you push it?
Tania de Jong: Absolutely. Yeah. I've pressed it a few times and then I go, oh wow. Look what's here.
Charna Cassell: It's so profound given the amount of what I imagine. Is, uh, terror. Right. That was inherited and that [00:15:00] yeah. That cloaks as you know, knowing for myself the quality of vigilance that I moved through the world through Yeah.
Until I discovered somatic work. Yeah. And that there's a certain bracing and when you're. When you're in vigilance or when you're in a PTSD response and how your vision gets so narrow.
Tania de Jong: Yeah.
Charna Cassell: And so if you think about, if there's a habit of moving through the world with a certain kind of vision, I can remember one of my first somatic, um, body work sessions that shifted something around my vision, this band.
'cause I was always like, like stuck in shock.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. And also
looking so closely led things instead of allowing things in.
Charna Cassell: Suddenly, I remember I used to work at a place called Good Vibrations, which was a, a, a worker owned sex toy store. And so we had all of these colorful sex toys everywhere.
Right. And I remember going to work after the session. And I had a [00:16:00] coworker with blue hair and then the, and then the toys. And I was like, oh my God. It's like being in a candy shop. Like everything is so colorful and this is done through, you know, relaxing the fascia around the eyes. Yeah. And through breath work.
And so there's all these different ways that we can, alter our states of consciousness and also like take a veil off. So to speak.
Tania de Jong: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it really is. Like, you know, when, Aldous Huxley said, you know, you start to see beyond the doors of perception, it is like all the veils. Are removed and then you get this massive neurogenesis, like you can see that image behind me mm-hmm.
Of a, of a brain. And that's how I feel about my brain now. Mm-hmm. Like it's, it feels so much more connected across different hemispheres, and I'm able to make connections between, I've always been a real connector mm-hmm. Kind of person anyhow. Mm-hmm. But it's really interesting now because it's just like things come in and I think, oh wow.
I never would've thought about that before. [00:17:00] So I feel like, yeah, there's something really profound and eyesight is a very interesting thing that you're talking about. Because since I experienced these treatments, I do feel like I'm, I'm able to see much more to the side.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Tania de Jong: But also that's a protection thing as well.
It's good not to be. So yeah, when I focus forward that you can actually feel. A 360 degree energy around you.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Tania de Jong: And you can better protect your energy field that way as well.
Charna Cassell: And symbolically speaking, mm-hmm. I mean, there's the literal, but then symbolically speaking, being like, oh, I'm not just the only one who exists here.
No. Like being able to suddenly open to compassion and connection because when you're not safe, it's like in certain ways, especially if humans have caused the suffering, it's safer to be alone, to be like a singular person. Yeah. And people think like if I'm [00:18:00] tense and I'm ready to fight or run, yeah, I am safest.
But no, actually being relaxed in your system allows you to open to what you're talking about, which is 360.
Tania de Jong: Yeah, and you, you, it's true. Like, it, it is definitely true. Like you, you do, I mean, certainly since having the medicines, you know, I don't even wanna step on an ant talk about compassion. You know, I don't wanna harm a single insect or animal or anything at all.
I've always loved animals anyway, but, but insects I wasn't so thrilled about. But now it's like, you know, there's Scorp, I mean France at the moment, and I say five scorpions in the house since I've been here. They're not big scorpions. Don't worry.
Charna Cassell: Oh, scorpions.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. But you know, like these are things that I just wouldn't have been able to even contemplate doing before.
I would've screamed out for my husband and told him to either kill them or,
yeah, remove
them or whatever. But now I'm the one who's actually removing these insects very kindly, putting them back out into nature where they belong.
Charna Cassell: I'm curious, have have other people in your family are [00:19:00] your, did your or, I mean, I'm, are your parents alive still?
Has anyone else also taken psilocybin besides your husband?
Tania de Jong: no. So my mom knows all about it. And my dad, before he passed, he was very supportive of what we were working on. But mom, yeah, mom's very supportive. I mean, I, yeah, I, you know, she's never sort of act up and said, you shouldn't do this, or, you know, and gradually, I think as time's gone on, she's become more confident and, you know, instead of going, oh, be careful on all of this.
Now she's sort of like, oh, you know, and I think she can see. The change mm-hmm. Um, in us both. And, but of course we know a lot of other people and, and there's many people we know that have started to work with these medicines over the last few years since we started the charity. Like including a lot of, you know, very senior leaders and others who, again, don't necessarily have a particular mental illness, but want to be Yeah.
Reaching their full [00:20:00] potential, their full creativity, their full productivity to make the most of their lives and just. See more of what's, what's here. Mm-hmm. And so we know a lot of people like that. And of course there's a lot of people who are very, very unwell, that have approached our charity and we get many approaches every single week.
And now finally, because Australia has become the first nation in the world to reschedule Psilocybin and MDMA, we are seeing quite a lot of patients starting to be treated. It's, you know, it's slow compared to the need. The need is enormous. There's millions of people suffering with mental illness in Australia alone.
Yeah, yeah. But little by little, more and more people are starting to be able to access these treatments and the psychiatrists and their clinical teams are just saying the outcomes are extraordinary and we are. So happy to hear that for them. because they're therapists and they wanna get their patients well, so these are new tools [00:21:00] in their toolbox.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Tania de Jong: But also, I mean, for the patients, you know, many of them have been suffering for decades, if not their whole lives. Right. And to get their lives back and to go into remission is something incredible. It's a, it's a real gift. And we are so happy that this is able to take place in a clinical environment because a lot of people don't wanna break the law.
They don't wanna go underground. Right. And also, you know, the risks of going underground are that, you know, you may work with someone who's untrained or doesn't use a pure medicine or the right dose, and of course there are some wonderful underground practitioners and you just have to do your due diligence.
You know, we have a wonderful list on our website. Legal, reputable centers and guides around the world, and I encourage people to, to look at it.
Charna Cassell: I'm, I'm curious, especially given you, you're, you know, you understand fascism and genocide and it has me think about colonialism [00:22:00] being in Australia and the Aboriginal people and wondering about your offering or how much.
I don't know if there is a relationship between, I know like, um, psilocybin is used in, in other cultures, um, but in ter, in, in, in terms of in Australia, like what the relationship between the Aboriginal and psilocybin is and if there is an offering back to Aboriginal people for healing the ancestral trauma of colonialism.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. Well, you know, we have been trying to connect with the indigenous community in Australia since we started the charity. Okay. And they're, they're very, I mean, it's, it's a difficult community to engage with because many of them are sort of more assimilated into. Modern day, or there's many people who desperately need these medicines in the indigenous community, but a lot of the elders don't really wanna share that much.
And Acacia is a, a [00:23:00] psychoactive plant. Acacia. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That has been used, by the indigenous people. And I think if you look at some of those beautiful. Songlines and the dot paintings of indigenous aboriginals. You can, you can see that they were probably having some Acacia or something like that.
I have spoken to some and that's still a piece of work that we are working on. Mm-hmm. Um. It's just tri it's just difficult. In a way, you know, I wish that they'd come and, and have a chat with us and we've put out a lot of olive branches to, to connect with them and mm-hmm. Not olive branches.
'cause not like we've done anything wrong to them because we're, you know, psilocybin is not an indigenous Australian medicine. That's for sure. Though psilocybin just grow in Australia. It's not something that. The aboriginals were known to use. Yeah. And Acacia is not something that I've tried and I'm, I guess I'd, I'd wanna do that with an indigenous elder or indigenous skill if I was gonna try it.
Charna Cassell: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, and I'm also in terms of, is it, are they all [00:24:00] individual sessions or at your, your center, do you do group healing because there's so much power in community healing?
Tania de Jong: No. Well, so it's very interesting 'cause we're just about, so we've just launched our Mind Medicine Australia clinic, which is a seven patient.
Sorry, A seven room outpatient clinic in Abbotsford in Melbourne. then There's a number of other clinics that have started in Australia as well, and most of them are doing one-on-one treatments, but one of the clinics that we're involved with is applying for some group therapy through the Therapeutic Goods Administration and the ethics committees.
And we certainly are very big proponents of certainly group integration therapy. Mm-hmm. we feel that would be really powerful and it is something that's. Very much a priority for us to, to get on the agenda also, because it will save a lot of money for a lot of the patients. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But also I think it'll create a better outcome because people start to start to see that they're not the only [00:25:00] one and they start to again, connect with, with others who've gone through a lot.
And there's an enormous amount of learning and benefit in that. So I, I love working in groups. And I think it's. A really powerful way to integrate these sorts of therapies.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Sense of belonging is such a deep wound for so many, especially when you've been persecuted. Yeah. For being who you are, you know, it's like That's right.
Getting a sense of connection and,
Tania de Jong: Yeah..
Charna Cassell: So important.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. So I really hope that we can give people that sense of belonging, and that's one of the things, these medicines Absolutely do. They make you realize that you're not never alone, you know? Mm-hmm. How could you ever be alone? Ramdas used to say that, and it's wonderful.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Tania de Jong: Video of his sitting by the fire, which I'm, I'm sure you've seen, and. You know...
Charna Cassell: it's a, a true paradox, right? We're always alone and we're never alone.
Tania de Jong: Exactly. But feeling connected is, is a thing, and it's the feeling of disconnection and separation is very much something that happens to people who are suffering with trauma and [00:26:00] mental illnesses, depression and addictions and so on, that they feel like it.
Us versus them, whereas we're all in this together and giving people that sense of, of oneness, that unity consciousness, yeah. That these medicines do is just beautiful.
Charna Cassell: Truly, truly, I, I was mentioning offline that I had just completed a Kundalini yoga teacher training. And a big, a big part of that training is, chanting and you know, there's a, a specific chant, that we do for two and a half hours.
Tania de Jong: Wow. So,
Charna Cassell: yeah, it, so any, just last week I had the experience. It, it was a, it was very, it was intense. It was ki a little brutal, but, um, felt like a medicine journey.
Tania de Jong: Mm. Right. Mm-hmm.
Charna Cassell: Because I've, I've had like really beautiful, like sensual more, you know, truly orgasmic experiences, chanting, and then there's, so, but this was really like, oh, this is.
This is two and a half hours long. I have no sense of [00:27:00] time. A lot of energy, a lot of like, uh, I believe trauma that's like lodged deep in the tissue was, was coming up to be expressed. It's like thinking about unexpressed emotions, unexpressed feelings. Hmm. You know, it's remaining, it's a feeling of like, like, uh, almost being choked.
Like it's still going. Yeah. We're, we're here. We still want to move. We're in your, we're in your throat, we're in your chest. I'm curious about your experience, especially as a singer, as an acclaimed singer, um, your use or interest in sound healing or like moving and, and, you know, somatically and, uh, energetically using sound to heal.
Tania de Jong: Yeah, well, sound is, is a huge part of my work. And the voice, the human voice is just such a magical instrument and really it inhabits a whole being, you know, really from the center of the earth to the sky. [00:28:00] Mm-hmm. So, you know, when we can bring that resonance and resonate with. Ourselves and allow our sound to come out.
Then we get our full voices being expressed. And that's really powerful and I, I really recommend people to do Sing Mantra together. And, and Kurt Hand, and I'm going to email you my new piece, which combines mantra with this beautiful new song Cool. Called, um, walking Each Other Home because I spent a week living with Ramdas in 2018 where he.
Said, we are all walking each other home. And I just love that, that phrase, and I love to think that, you know, yes, if we just reach outta hand and we're all together, we are going to the same place. We came from the same place and mm-hmm. Let's, let's reach out and, um, sound and voice. Something that you know, have been used since the beginning of human civilization to help people to build strength in tribes.
I talk about it a [00:29:00] lot in my TED Talk, how singing together changes the brain, and there's an enormous amount of research worldwide that shows that when we sing with other people, we get smarter, healthier, happier, more creative. We improve our memory, language, and concentration. It's like a super wonder drug.
And you see the brain cells behind me again. Well, that's what also happens when you sing, particularly with other people. So it's great also to sing alone in the shower, in the car, but when you sing with other people, the effect is massively amplified and it leads to an enormous amount of healing of body, mind, and spirit and a sense of connection.
So singing is free. It's something that we're all carrying in ourselves, our beautiful voices. And people may say, oh, but I can't sing. I was told I can't sing too, and that I should never bother having singing lessons at 14. And of course, my career has been largely around performing and singing all over the world.
So it's very important that we all acknowledge we have a voice and we just have to unlock it. It's like [00:30:00] all of ourselves, we all just have to unlock more of ourselves little by little. That I think is the journey of life. And when we unlock more of ourselves, we become more of who we are and we can express more of who we are.
We can give more, serve more, create more, heal more. It's just beautiful.
Charna Cassell: It's profound to me that you, uh, you know, as a teenager, despite someone saying you can't sing, you had the courage and the self-esteem to pursue that. Then that, not only that, because I know how fear just like squeezes this hole, the, you know, your esophagus in your throat and, and like just your throat can close up and it's hard to even let a sound out.
And so the fact that that part of your work has been, you know, helping people have a voice literally, figuratively, is yeah. That's really interesting. No, it's,
Tania de Jong: it's really important because. [00:31:00] Many of us, many, many people have been silenced. You know, and I talk about this in my TED Talk, and so they've been shut down in different ways, often starting in early childhood throughout, you know, often at school, you know, people get taught to think in boxes, so they're very afraid to speak out or speak up about
mm-hmm
what's really going on.
And I feel like we're at a point now where we all need to speak from our hearts from a point of truth. For us and start to call things as they are and create the world that we want to live in and that we want our children and grandchildren to live in. It's not to, to remain silent when things are not going well is, is the worst thing that, in my opinion, that we can do.
But a lot of people have been silenced and singing is a way to really start to express yourself and to allow it to happen. But the reason why I had the courage, well firstly, I didn't, for a couple of years, I did backstage in school, musical and stuff, and then I auditioned [00:32:00] for the chorus of the musical Oklahoma.
And to my amazement, I got the lead roles. And my friend who had, had, had said this to me, well, she didn't get in the chorus, but mm-hmm. No hard feelings at all little kids can be really. Horrible to each other and say things that, but unfortunately, we as human beings often take on what has been said to us at a young age, and we carry that our whole lifetimes.
And for a long time, I used to sabotage my performances and auditions because I'd have that voice in my head saying, you're not good enough. And. Mm-hmm. It took a lot to overcome that too.
Charna Cassell: What you said is so important regarding, you know, the more, the more we're able to connect with ourselves and be true to ourselves and access our own voice, then we're also, there's this responsibility given that we are all connected to also stand for other people.
And, yes. To not remain silent when what you feel [00:33:00] is something that's wrong, that's happening in your society or culture like speaking up Right. And not having another Holocaust. Although genocide is happening in many places, um, I'm curious, like, what, what would you say to the people in these different countries?
And of course I'm in the, the U.S.-- Who care about liberation, equality, and safety for all. Given you've been involved in you know, systemic change mm-hmm. And cultural change, like what, what advice would you have for us?
Tania de Jong: I would say that it's really important to, to not take a binary view, to anything like there is, you know, nothing is all good, nothing is all bad, no race is all good.
No race is all bad, no color of skin is all good or bad that we need to actually seek to understand one another and go into the field. You know, as Rumi said, there is a field, I shall meet you there and go into this, into the space of understanding where there's light that can [00:34:00] come in and start to actually build understanding of each other so that we remember that we, we are one, we are forgotten that we are one.
And as long as we are in this sort of split sort of polarity. There is this incredible division in the world, which leads to an enormous amount of suffering. And this right, wrong, yes, no, you know, all of this sort of stuff. It doesn't help us at all as human beings to to feel a sense of belonging or unity or to feel love and kindness.
And we need to go back to that loving kindness, that compassion that is within each of us, that deep wisdom that reminds us who we are. That the person that we're looking at, like, I'm looking at you now and your eyes are shining back into mine and hopefully mine are shining back into yours. And we remember that we are the one and we could switch places with that person at any time.[00:35:00]
And that was one of the great things that I learned through a lot of my work with, with One Voice Choirs really is that it's the luck of the draw. You know, where you're born, what happens to you.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah.
Tania de Jong: And we all just have to remember that you can't box people up and say, well, that person is that, or that person is this or the other.
It's generally not true. There's generally a lot of nuance and most people want to actually expand and, and feel connected.
Charna Cassell: Well, and then we have these leaders, right? We have fascist leaders who are more interested in power. And you have to imagine there has to have been deep wounding and disconnection to get into that, you know, that that head space of desiring power over connection and, um, authoritarian rule.
And, and I also, you know, I know that you're, you're also involved in Bhutan. The Gross National Happiness Center, which [00:36:00] is super fascinating and interesting to me that this king, and I use the word king intentionally, united in the United States. You know, there's somebody who wants to be a king and all ruling, but you can also rule and care about the happiness of, uh, the people.
Rather than the gross national product is the Gross National Happiness Center. And if you could say a little about what you're doing with them. I'm super fascinated. Well,
Tania de Jong: I mean, Bhutan's a very interesting nation and this Gross National Happiness Center has done some wonderful work to, to measure gross national happiness and some of the qualities that lead to that.
And I led a mission there last year. And I went on a mission the year before there as well on a leadership mission. It's fascinating learning about Bhutan, but there is also, there's also a lot of trauma and mental illness in Bhutan as well. Mm-hmm. Despite all of this and a lot of the young people are leaving for Australia and other nations because they can't earn a good enough living there.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So there [00:37:00] are challenges in Bhutan as well, and I often think, you know, what would happen if psychedelic assisted therapies could. Could come into, into that environment and help heal some of the suffering. 'cause there is a lot of trauma in the backgrounds of a lot of people in Bhutan as well.
Charna Cassell: Yeah, no doubt.
Tania de Jong: Wonderful place. I recommend people go and visit and go there with a real intention, not just as a holiday maker, but to really learn about. The place.
Charna Cassell: And, and so on that note, I was curious about the work that you're doing in Australia.
Have you thought about bringing it and doing it in, like, using the model that is working there in other countries?
Tania de Jong: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're approached all the time by other com, uh, countries. I mean, we're not gonna go there and do it for them because we don't have the resources. We are just a,
yeah,
relatively small charity that's just.
Kicking some big goals with a, mm-hmm. You know, an incredible team of people that, that we work with and volunteers and others. But certainly [00:38:00] we're being approached by a lot of people from other nations and leaders and governments and others who are wanting advice on how to move things along in their nations and, mm-hmm.
It's inspiring people. Like it's great to see Australia leading and inspiring other nations to make sure that these therapies become accessible and affordable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To as many people as possible who really need them and who qualify for them. And it's important to say that not every single person is gonna get benefits from these medicines.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. And
Tania de Jong: some people with some conditions are excluded from having them.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm
Tania de Jong: I don't wanna say that every single person can, can have these medicines, but they are a great option for a lot of people who are suffering. And I just pray that, you know, little by little more and more people can get access in the right setting .
Charna Cassell: What, what would you add? Anything else regarding what you see the limitations?
Tania de Jong: Oh, well, at the moment it's cost because...
Charna Cassell: Certainly,
Tania de Jong: Because these are not on the [00:39:00] pharmaceutical benefits scheme at the moment, but there is a number of health insurers in Australia who are starting to, to get on board, and then there's the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
There's the Department of Veterans Affairs who are starting to support some of these treatments. So that's a, that's a great start. And we also have a patient support fund. And if people out there listening and would like to donate, we really welcome your donations and we can pay up to 50% of the cost of people who are genuinely in financial need, which could be a veteran or a first responder, or someone who's, and we've already paid out a lot of money to support patients who otherwise couldn't afford these treatments through generous philanthropy.
Good. So yeah, I really encourage people to. Donate and support us. Get us, you know, go online, look at mindmedicineaustralia.org. We're a registered charity and support us, get involved. Join our mailing list.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:40:00] And, and I'm curious for you, you personally, if you have, a spiritual practice or daily practice that helps keep you grounded, connected, feeling vital.
Tania de Jong: I do. Mm-hmm. I probably spend, you know, quite a bit of time, probably at least a couple hours a day. I do yoga and stretching and breath work, pranayama, and I swim most, pretty much every day. Mm-hmm. I might, you know, try to use a steam room or some kind of hot cold therapy, meditation, walking in nature,
gratitude practice. There's a lot of things I do, and I also have a wonderful circle of healers around me to help me to stay as much as I can in, in peak form because I'm, I'm very busy and I'm doing a lot of, I'm juggling a lot of different balls in the area.
Charna Cassell: And are there any particular practices, and again, I'm thinking about your, your connection to voice and [00:41:00] supporting other people in accessing their voice. Hmm. Maybe there's a, an exercise like a, a, you know, five minute exercise that you could guide us through around that, or it could relate to anything, but really the themes that have come up throughout this conversation around voice and connection.
Tania de Jong: Yeah. I mean. Firstly, you know, there's a wonderful video of Ramdas, which I was gonna send you, which I, I really recommend, including with the program and, and the video that I'm gonna send you, the walking each other home. But, you know, I probably find alternate nostril breathing one of my great exercises, and that's where you breathe out through your left nostril, sitting up mm-hmm.
Beautifully in your chair,
and then breathing in through your left nostril, closing your right nostril. Usually on the count of four, holding for four, and then I breathe out with eight.[00:42:00]
Breathing in for four,
hold for four, breathe out eight,
and then I might hold actually again for four. Mm-hmm. Breathing in for four.
Hold for four. Exhale.
Hold for four.
Reading in for four, hold for four out for eight.
Charna Cassell: And you're using your fingers to alternate between. Yeah, nostrils.
Tania de Jong: That's right. Yeah. That's a very ancient practice. Yeah, and it's really great to do it in the morning where it really clears your head. It really helps you to discern what's going on in the day too.
Then there's all sorts of other things you can do. A lot of humming. [00:43:00] So I do a lot of like mosquito, like humming, like, hmm.
That clears out the cobwebs. And you go up and up and down the scale. And then there's also the Bray yoga one where you close your eyes, your nose, your mouth.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm.
Tania de Jong: All the sensors. And then you start to make like, it's like clearing out the cobwebs.
Charna Cassell: You're activating the vagus nerves with the humming. Yeah. You're calming your nervous system with the pranayama, which people, if that was confusing, you can can look it up on, yeah, just Google it.
Anything else that, that you want our listeners to know before we shift gears and give people your information?
Tania de Jong: I have some beautiful, music and songs, on my website and on YouTube, Spotify, all those platforms.
I encourage people to go. Download some of my songs and there's a, a range of songs there. Also I'm performing and speaking and presenting workshops all over the world.
So on my website, there's a lot of that. That's Tanya de Young, [00:44:00] T-A-N-I-A-D-E-J-O-N-G dot com is my website. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I welcome people to reach out. People reach out to me all the time. Mm-hmm. Join my mailing list and I'll keep in touch with my newsletters and just, yeah. I love to love to be with people and, um, share and serve however I can.
Charna Cassell: That's beautiful. Thank you for so much for the contribution you're making in this world and having the courage to do it.
Tania de Jong: It's a pleasure. Thank you for all you are doing.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Tania de Jong: And to therapists like you in the world. Thank you.
Charna Cassell: If you appreciated this episode, you can like rate. Review and share it with your friends. I'd appreciate that. If you'd like to stay connected, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram at LaidOPEN Podcast.
That's L-A-I-D-O-P-E-N-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. If you go to charnacassell.com, you can sign up for my newsletter where you can receive discounts and you'll be the [00:45:00] first person to receive certain resources and information about upcoming events. At passionate life.org, you can get more information about my private practice if you're interested in working with me as a client, and you can learn more about my approach to healing.
This has been LaidOPEN Podcast. I'm your host, Charna Cassell. We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Until next time.
