Show Notes
Dr Chelsey teaser vid responsibility of family
Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Laid Open Podcast. I'm Charna Cassell, and I have an episode today that I have really been looking forward to. One of my wishes if I could have anything come to fruition, it would be that every parent upon the birth of their child is gifted free parent coaching. And they would get the tools to raise embodied and regulated children. And in the process of that, they're getting that training for themselves, right?
You can't co-regulate, you can't rather regulate your child if you're not regulating yourself. Right? And so that means it's a lot of work, but it's something that is really essential and it's one of the things that motivates me to do the work that I do with parents. So this next guest is somebody that I've been really looking forward to having a conversation with.
[00:01:00] My guest today is Dr. Chelsey, and her expertise lies in applied educational, neuroscience, social and emotional learning, educational equity, and building calm, cooperative family relationships. And she makes a lot of fun videos on Instagram that provide a lot of very concrete tools and interventions. And if this isn't a testimonial, I don't know what is, but she actually works with her mom.
In collaboration to teach parents how to be more regulated for themselves and how to regulate their kids. So there you go.
Welcome Chelsey.
[00:02:00]
Charna Cassell: So good to have you here. It has been a long time since we met through Amy MacLain, who I know you worked with at Soul Shop. Can you give the listeners a little context? So what was Soul Shop about and how did you come to do what you're doing now?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Amy and I at Soul Shop worked mostly on teacher education. Soul shop runs, social emotional learning programs for elementary school age kids and professional development programs for their teachers. So that's the context that I met Amy in. [00:03:00] At that time I also had a couple of young, very young children and I was parenting my niece and it was hard.
There was four, three little tiny children and one big, giant child. And it was a very challenging time of parenting. And my mom had this parenting course and she just was on me to take it and I, I didn't want to I was like, who takes a parenting class from their mom? I already know all of this stuff.
And I eventually did take it to get her off my back. And I found a set of tools that really beautifully matched the theories that I was working with as an academic that transferred the, no, the stuff we were doing at Soul Shop into more practical, in homes, in families [00:04:00] kinds of modes. And so we revamped it and have been teaching it together now for many years.
Charna Cassell: That's incredible. And how is it you know, is there a discrepancy between how mom parented you and the skills that she's teaching all these other parents? Like, was there, you know, how is that to be co-teaching with your mom and learning from her in that way?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any such thing as a, as a perfect parent.
Yeah.
Nobody has that. I certainly am not that. I would not say she was that. She, you know, when she was parenting me, I would say she lived pretty close to these kinds of principles. She, we used to say like, oh, we're the Guinea pigs, right. She tried out on us but I would say she, she stayed fairly close.
And I certainly, you know, I definitely learn a lot from her. I learn a lot from watching her with my own [00:05:00] children and listening to her coach, some of our, our parents, especially those with, you know, those that have really truly, challenging children.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. That's, I mean, it's such a gift to have a grandma, to have another resource so whatever may not have been perfect for you as a child getting to see her parenting or, or like grandparenting your kids. Well, I imagine it's also healing.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah. It's lovely. Yeah. They, they adore her and she, she's great with them.
I have one who is, has a really have a hard time with math. I also had a hard time with math and I do not like all of the math homework that I have to do with this child, with the other two also. But it's really hard with the one who struggles.
And oftentimes I get frustrated and I'm like, you can go call her.
And they get on FaceTime and she helps do the math homework. It's great.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. So, so re so many [00:06:00] layers of resource there. Right. It's like there's one of the key things is nervous system regulation for the parents, right?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Just,
Charna Cassell: just like when you're training a dog, right?
It's, it's, there's a little bit of training with the dog, but it's really about the, the nervous system of the owner Sure. And how they are around that little being and what that little being is.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Mm-hmm.
Charna Cassell: How it's getting activated.
Right?
Yeah. So that's a big piece of, of what you do with the parents that you work.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: It's a huge piece. And I think, you know, our lives are so fast and there's so much happening and most parents, I think in the, you know, in this generation of parents want, they want it, they want to parent gently. They want the relationship. They don't want to be. Tossing out punishments or stuck in a yelling loop or whatever.
But it's hard I think for a lot of people even to notice like, I'm [00:07:00] kind of getting activated here and I need to have you do the math homework with somebody else.
Mm-hmm.
Or I need to take a moment. I had a mom the other day say to me, oh, I finally get it when my child starts whining. It was whining.
I think she was talking about when she starts whining like that, I need to check in with myself.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not
give her a consequence. And I was like, yeah. Totally. And you know, I think a lot of parents are. Don't notice, it's like are not in touch enough with their bodies to notice that they are getting activated until it's like the end of the rope.
You know, what people say is like, I gentle parent, I gentle parent, I gentle parent, and then I can't and I explode.
Charna Cassell: Right, right, right, right. And so for people who don't know the distinction between gentle parenting and more of an authoritative approach, can you break that down a little bit?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yes. So gentle parenting is a totally amorphous thing, [00:08:00] right?
There's not a single definition, there's a lot of things that exist under that umbrella. When I talk about gentle parenting or brain-based parenting, what we're looking for is like prioritizing the relationship and using the relationship as the driver to, to get stuff done.
To have to support the child to put their dishes away or get to school on time or whatever.
And so instead of you know, like doling out punishments where the assumption is kind of, I'm gonna give you a negative condition so that you don't do X, Y, and Z again. Right? Like, I'm gonna send you to your room and then you're gonna go in there and you're not gonna wanna have that experience again, so you're not gonna fight with your sibling.
Yeah.
I would call that sort of the other end of the spectrum. I would far rather have parents wonder like, why are they fighting with a sibling and what can I do to support them to get a different outcome? Like, what are the set of [00:09:00] experiences that this kiddo needs in order to show up differently?
Charna Cassell: Right. Right. And I, you know, what's so key here, at least from my understanding, is kids are really different. They need different things. And what's gonna work with one kid is not gonna work with another kid. And so if you're, if you're, you know, you're not just a parent, you're a parent in relationship with this kid in one way, and you're a parent in a relationship with this kid in another way.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Totally.
Charna Cassell: And totally. If you have multiple kids like you had, right? Yeah. It's like how do you shift gears in that quickly when you're trying to manage and orient to multiple relationships at the same time?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think it's challenging and when the thing that is kind of like front and center is brain and nervous system co-regulation.
Like there's gonna be times when I am more focused on one kid than the other two.
There's also [00:10:00] gonna be times when I have to parent them as a group, like as a little sibling unit. And that might mean that sometimes not everybody gets the most attuned ideal thing.
For them as a, as a unique individual.
And, you know, it's really the, it's like the pattern and the cadence of the connection and the regulation and the touch points that that matters. And so, well yes, sometimes. The three of them get what one of them needs, as long as all three of them are experiencing a pattern of connection.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: A pattern of regulation. That's okay.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. And you just, you just referenced co-regulation. So parents are co-regulating with their kids, helping their kids regulate. And then earlier the piece of like being in touch with your own body as a parent and being self-regulated. Right. You might have to co-regulate with your partner if you have a [00:11:00] partner, and if, but if you're a single parent, how do you learn how to self-regulate and become more embodied in how essential that is as a parenting tool?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I mean, I think as parents if we are not at the very least conscious to our nervous system aware it doesn't really matter what parenting tool you use, you could use the best parenting tool in the world. And if you're divorced from the fact that you're like really edgy and having a really bad day, and like cranky, it's gonna come out with tone and it's, you're gonna go up, up, up, escalate, escalate, escalate with your child.
And so I always think about it as like, okay, I don't have to be. Perfectly calm all the time.
I do have to like, know where I am in this space and in this relationship. And it is, it's hard. It's hard work. It's, [00:12:00] it's like I always tell that to parents, it is really challenging to ask you, especially if you're on your own or your partner is away.
Right? At that particular moment, it's very challenging to say to yourself, I have to bring it down and I don't have another person who's an adult here. To help me regulate. And so I have to do it for myself so that I can do it with my children.
You know, I always tell people they need to, it's like, we gotta find a five second something you could do in five seconds.
That's really all you have...
yeah.
Sometimes. Right. And is that the most ideal thing? Of course it's not. I would love for everybody to be able to go to a yoga class, but. That's always available.
And so then it's like, okay, what is available to you? Can you go wash your hands in cold water?
Can you get a cup of tea? Can you run up and down your stairs? What is the, the super fast practice that moves you back into your body so that you [00:13:00] can be take more responsibility for the emotional landscape of your, of your family.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. And what, what you're saying also really highlights you know, when people have, when they have their own trauma and, and they haven't, they haven't healed it or attended to it, it's certainly gonna get activated by these little beings and their needs.
And especially at certain ages, right? Like, let's say you were abused at five and then your kid approaches that age. Whether it's even conscious or not, you're, you know, what can happen is that material of like, like this kid's needs and you know, how they were, how you were or were not attended to.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah.
Charna Cassell: Can get activated in the system. And so it can be like this, this very intense dysregulation that may or may not even be conscious.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I think there are many, [00:14:00] many things like that that come up for parents as they raise kids. And it, I, it, it is it lot to ask someone to be with that kind of material while they're also making oatmeal.
Getting, finding socks, right? And doing all of the sort of daily life activities. And I also think it's quite healing to parent your child this way. And to do that work so that you can show up in ways that are nurturing that, you know, possibly you didn't get Yeah. Or you didn't get the way that you needed.
Charna Cassell: And it's such an opportunity too. I mean, as much of a, so much of life is a trial and, and, and it invites you to step into practices, right? Mm-hmm. And so knowing like it raises the stakes, you're like, I wanna perhaps raise my kids differently than I was raised, or I want to have, have my kids, you know, have a [00:15:00] certain experience.
And that's a pretty big motivator for a lot of my clients, right?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I can't think of a client that I have worked with for whom that isn't a motivator.
Right? People have the idea that they want to show up differently with their kids.
And when they have a child who is spicy, neurodivergent, strong-willed, whatever you wanna call it and is gonna push on that it brings everything up to the surface and it's like, okay, I have to learn a new way. And the way that we work with people is very action oriented, right. So it's like, okay, what are the actions, what are the words we're saying?
What are we doing? As opposed to like, why do I feel this way? Which sometimes people need to go from both directions. but it's, it's very practical.
Charna Cassell: One of the things you pointed to earlier was about tone.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Hmm.
Charna Cassell: So important, right? Like 30% of what we're, how we're what we're [00:16:00] saying, or 30% of communication is verbal and the rest is nonverbal and Yeah.
But even, you know, even though tone is verbal, just what that activates in somebody's nervous system. Can you say more about how tone can be used to deescalate?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah. Well, I think it goes both directions. And kids hear, and adults too. Children hear tone, impresses tone long before they under make sense of the language.
And that's true. That's true always right? It's like the brain processes the tone first.
Mm-hmm. And I think we have to really own. Own our tone. It's like you have to own it That needs to be on a t-shirt. That's so good. Own your tone.
Right. We, we communicate so much. Right. Even if we just like, go back to that math, that math homework example. Mm. If I'm sitting with my child and being like, come on, [00:17:00] you've gotta do this. We have to finish it. There's so much tone in that. I'm not even yelling. There's not even a child in here. Right?
There's so much tone and so much is being communicated that's gonna shut her right down. Mm-hmm. And so what we're, what we're shooting for is like, warm, engaged, positive, a tone that communicates like, I know you've got this and we're gonna figure it out together.
Mm-hmm.
As opposed to like. Oh my God.
You've gotta finish the math homework. And then of course there's gradations of that, right? It's like if I'm yelling or slamming a door or walking around with my shoulders really high, all of those things communicate tone to our kids also and, and work together to like create the culture.
Charna Cassell: Kids are also amazing at observing all of that, whether, you know, whether they're aware of it or not. But as they get older, I was teaching a, a class in a high school, a a, an embodied sexuality class, and it was, it was [00:18:00] the most, one of the more intense experiences of my life.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah, I bet.
Charna Cassell: But there was, there was one girl who was very intense and would, would act out a lot in class and kind of controlled the, the energy in the class. And I remember another girl responding and being, and pointing out as I was teaching this lesson, talking about, you know, like embodiment and cues and they're like, just like you're doing now, I see your jaws really tight and like absolute completely transparent body language.
Right.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah. I mean, it's true. It's so true and we bring with us all of that energy like into these interactions. I mean, I have this really vivid memory of a time when my kids were quite young maybe five or six years ago. And I had come home from like a super stressful day [00:19:00] and my dad had been babysitting, so they were like inside and it probably was this time of year or the winter 'cause it's like dark.
So I park and I'm like walking up and I can see this like happy scene, right? They're like dancing. They're playing with the dog, he's holding them. It's like really sweet. I get home with my stress out energy and he leaves. And then we just had the worst night. It was horrible. Right. It was like the milk spilled, the kids got in a fight, one of them threw the toothbrush, like we couldn't get to bed, just like all of this stuff.
And it's not like they also had a bad day. They were just having a dance party with a grandpa.
It was fine. I just brought all of this energy in and it kind of seeped in, right. And everybody took it on and they weren't, you know, they're not gonna turn around and be like, I'm having a horrible day.
They're gonna throw the toothbrush. Mm-hmm. Or pull the sister's hair or [00:20:00] whatever.
You know, I think we have to take responsibility for the way that our kids experience us and, some, there are some children out there for whom you can kind of fake it till you make it. And then there's other kids like that girl in the, in the class that you were teaching who are just gonna see right through that.
Right. And then I can say, wow, yeah, you're right. My jaw is really tight. This is a tricky moment. So that I can, I can bring it down and, and get present again.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
There are, so, I, you know, I don't have my own kids. I have a lot of clients with kids.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Mm-hmm.
Charna Cassell: And so there are a number of scenarios that, that repeat themselves, that are challenging
for the, for the parents that I, I work with. And and I would love for you to weigh in on a handful of scenarios. Yeah, totally. So, so one that is, seems to be a common situation is [00:21:00] and of course all of this is, it's tricky 'cause are you working from, you know, toddler to teen, you're parenting people.
So you're, there's so many different developmental stages that you're having to address. so with, with that understandably different, you know, answers would be different depending on the developmental stage. But, so let's say there's a kid who's you know, three and there's a preference for a certain parent, right?
Yeah. So it's all about everybody's got this. Yeah. Yeah. And totally. And then the other parent has to manage their own dysregulation in the face of feeling constant rejection.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Mm-hmm.
Charna Cassell: When this child is reaching for their other parent.
How do you work with that?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: That is a bit so common.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: And it's so hard. And I will say I have a set of twins. And when they were that age, I was the preferred parent for [00:22:00] one and the un preferred parent for the other one. And it's hard on both sides.
Mm-hmm.
It is hard to be the one that the child wants and it's hard to be the one that the child doesn't want. And I think if we could get the, if we could practice at two and three, having like a glass bubble around ourselves so that when I have a child saying to me, I don't want you, I only wanna go with daddy, or I only I, you, you're only mommy for bedtime or whatever.
That would be a great practice to have at age 2, 3, 4, so that it's not getting in there and I'm not making it more challenging by bringing my own.
Stuff.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: To the interaction. I often see this happening around bedtime is like a big one. Only mommy or only daddy can put me to bed. And I think it's very [00:23:00] important to build a lot of clarity and model a lot of disappointment. And so what I usually have families do is like, okay, we're gonna make a bedtime calendar.
It's a mommy night. It's a daddy night. And we're gonna alternate who puts which parent puts you to sleep. And it's, we're gonna make this calendar like three or four days and it's, everybody's gonna know I could put it on the fridge or like on the, you know, some common space. And when it's bedtime it's like, oh, it's a mommy night.
And if, you know, it's, if it's not me that the child wants and I, my face is on that calendar, I am gonna put the child to bed. Right. Because we've built in the clarity, like now I'm gonna put the child to bed and I can say, I know he is the best at putting kids to sleep. Ugh, he's so good. Right. And then I have to stay with it.
Yeah. Like, then I gotta [00:24:00] stay. And sometimes that means laying on the side of the bed so the child can't get out. Sometimes that means like waiting out a big upset. But what happens that messes everything up, right? Is sometimes then the other parent comes in and if I have set it up so that it's my, it's my night.
I can bring all the empathy and all the stuff to that. But the other parent coming in and intervening is gonna. Make it really challenging. I mean, of course if you are losing your mind and need to tag out and are just so escalated that you can't manage anymore, then of course I would have you tag out.
Yeah.
And let the other parent come in. But then we are gonna have to work on that in the future So that we build some clarity mm-hmm. Around it.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: And most people get a turn to be in both roles.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Right.
Charna Cassell: Is there a, a specific age [00:25:00] developmentally? Is it like four? Like what is, when there's a flip, like a, a switch to a different age?
Do do you track that?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: What do you mean? Like a, a different preferred parent?
Charna Cassell: Yeah. So that the kid may be like, it's all about all about mama or all about a certain parent for until a certain age and then there's a switch or no?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I haven't seen that. Usually it's often about like. The relationship that that parent has or does not have with the child. Sometimes it is like about the way that person interacts or doesn't interact with the child or the patterns that they've established. Sometimes it's just like, that parent works a lot and this one is here more often, and I just wanna be with her.
Right. So sometimes there's a big reason and other times there's not.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah.
Charna Cassell: And so also for the parent who's always kind of pulled on and, you know, wanted, right? It, it can be equally [00:26:00] challenging.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Oh my gosh, it's so hard.
Charna Cassell: Right? And like, you know, it's like body, body space. How do I take some Yeah. Space for myself. And so this is another one where. There's a parent who's being, like, their body parts are being, you know, maybe it's breasts, but like body is being grabbed and pulled on, not just at bedtime, but throughout the day or in the restaurant.
And how can the parent who's not being grabbed at support, how can they, how can they both establish developmental, like age appropriate boundaries as well as support one another in that situation?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to ask why is the child doing that? Is the child doing that because you're out in a restaurant and it's like sensory overwhelm and loud, and the trail doesn't really have a role and maybe they can't really see over the table.
Then I wanna solve for, for [00:27:00] those things. Is, you know, it's like what does this kid need so that they can have. They can show up differently.
I see parents all the time in this kind of situation who are just like, I am so touched out, I can't even deal.
And I know out, like I feel that, and it's just as saying what the boundary is is not enough.
Especially 'cause kids who are doing this are usually like under five, it's not enough to just say like, you can't touch 'em anymore, or you can't grab my breasts, or you can't put your head up my shirt or like, whatever they're doing. I have to, I can say that. And then I have to like, follow up with like some supports and the supports are gonna change and need to be attuned to the child.
Right. So. I actually was in this situation with one of my kids a couple of years ago. She was probably six or seven at the time. And we were in a restaurant that was like [00:28:00] too loud and too adult focused. We should, it, it's totally our fault. This was not a good place to take three kids to eat, but we were there.
And she was putting her head out my shirt and I'm sure she was hungry and it was loud. And we, you know, I told her not to do that a couple of times, which was probably my first error. And I'm sure my husband also told her a couple of times to stop. When we give a negative direction like that, we give it with so much tone.
And you know, to our earlier conversation, I'm I would be better served to tell her what I did want her to do. Yeah. Eventually I took her outside and we went on a little walk and like found some bugs and communed with the bugs. And then I could see that like the food was now on the table, so it's like, Hey, let's go.
We've had this connection. Five minutes, we're gonna go back in. Going back in means we sit in our chair and whatever the direction needs to be, We're gonna [00:29:00] eat our food as a, I'm not gonna say like, that means you can't put your head under my shirt again.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: It's just like that. Going back in means that we're gonna sit at the table and eat our food.
Are you ready for that? She was starving, so she was definitely ready for it. If she were to do it again, then like, one of us needs to take her out again.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Right. So like the problem is like we, in that kind of scenario, people let it go on for too long, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then it's like.
The whole head now her torso's under my shirt. Right. And I've let it escalate so much when in reality I would've been so much better served or to either me or my partner, like whoever's better regulated to take her out and give her some help before I ever got to that place.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. And I also heard you saying not speaking and not no negative language, right?
So before your nervous system gets too [00:30:00] disrupted. And also the repetition. And again, I'm thinking, you know, I've trained dogs but don't have kids. This idea of you, if you say, no, no, no, it's like you're giving them this. You're, you're just giving them the energy and attention instead of, that actually doesn't to give...
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: It does not work.
Charna Cassell: A negative command does not work to make a dog stop doing something.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah, it doesn't work for kids either. It, it usually escalates or makes it worse over time.
And then kids don't, I mean, parents say to me all the time, like, they do too, know what they're supposed to do.
It's like, well, do they really?
And I don't, I don't wanna leave this like ambiguity. I mean, ambiguity is so hard to tolerate. I don't want there to be ambiguity about what the right thing is. And so I'm just gonna remove that by giving it to them, like, here is the right thing.
Charna Cassell: And, and so if you were to put language to it in that moment, if you could go back in time before your [00:31:00] partner said, stop it, and you said stop it three times before, you know, like mm-hmm.
What would the positive framed language be in that moment? Like, hands, hands off, or, you know, like what would you...
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: It's probably something like right now we're coloring. Right. Or I could say hands on own body. My concern with that is that it doesn't really anchor her. Very well.
In, in like, okay, my hands are supposed to be on my own body, but what am I doing in this, like, overwhelming scene?
Right? How do I re-anchor into something else that's gonna help me get my needs met? And so I probably, it probably is something like right now we're coloring hands up here.
Or, you know, let's play a card game. Like, or that one of those hand games, right. Or something so that I'm giving her a way to engage. Obviously, you know, if a kid's pulling on you or getting in your shirt or like doing that kind of stuff they want you.
Charna Cassell: They want contact.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I'm gonna give them to you.
I'm gonna
give you to them. Mm-hmm. Right. That does mean you have [00:32:00] to stop having the adult conversation.
Right? I mean, if we went further back in time, like probably the right thing to do would've been to pick a different restaurant that, was more appropriate.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. And, and I find it, you know, in working with adults, just those in couples right.
Those moments of if we could go back in time, what are all the different choice points, you know? Like, how, what could we do different next time so that it's not just like this repeated setup.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah.
Charna Cassell: And so, yeah, note to self.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: It is a repeated setup. Oftentimes like. People have the same problems again and again and again.
And I, I'm thinking about a family that I worked with a while ago who had a 10-year-old with really big, explosive explosive reactions to all kinds of stuff. And we finally got them to give this kid what he needed before the explosions. But it's hard [00:33:00] because you don't, if you don't have the explosion, you don't necessarily know that you caught it.
'cause you're like, well, would I have had the explosion or what I Well, yes, you probably would've. But you didn't have it because you intervened.
Mm-hmm.
Right. And so then you people keep intervening and keep intervening and then it's like, oh, maybe I don't need to work so hard. Mm-hmm. And then the explosions start again.
Mm.
Right. And so, you know, it's protective to, to intervene faster. Right. If I have like a kid who's like splashing water out of the bathtub and I'm like, water stays in the tub and they continue to splash it, I would, I would probably pull that kid right out of that bathtub.
Mm-hmm.
Right? It's like, oh yeah, bath is done and here's your nice cozy towel.
If I let it go, like water stays in the tub, water stays in the, oh my God, I'm gonna lose my mind water in the tub, then yeah. Then it's over. Right. It's so much more protective for me, for my own nervous system to be like, oh, bath is done. [00:34:00] Lemme pull the plug and I'll get you a nice cozy towel.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: After the first time.
Charna Cassell: What about kids who are going through periods where they're hitting, where they're like, there's just a lot of physical lashing out.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: It's a stress behavior. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. And I, I think that's the first thing that I want parents to hold onto. Mm-hmm. Is that hitting is a stress behavior.
And then I have to ask like, why is this kid hitting? Yeah. Right. It's like, are they hitting because there's something about the play they don't understand. Are they hitting because the sibling is not letting them have the fidget? Are they hitting because their nervous system is just like super overwhelmed and giggly and loud and, ah, I can't even control my body.
Those are all, it's like, all of those things are different.
Mm-hmm. Right?
And so as soon as a kid hits, like, then I, that's my cue.
This kid needs some help.
And so then it's like, oh, [00:35:00] oops, hands on on body. And then I have to address like. What on earth is going on. Yeah. And if I don't know what's going on, I'm just gonna re-anchor the kid into something else that is like a positive engagement.
Charna Cassell: I have been the, you know, the listener to these different scenarios and mm-hmm. The thing that I, where my heart just sinks so much is when there's a divorced parent where you don't get to protect your kid half of the time and that there's very likely an abusive parent in the, on the other side of things.
And and, and as the kid gets older, if this explosive behavior continues and it becomes physically unmanageable, right? Like it be, they're strong, they get stronger and stronger. And it's like how to navigate that. It's like keeping your kids safe, but also not having a hundred percent custody and not being able to control what's...
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: So many families in this kind [00:36:00] of situation.
And all you can really do is parent your child the way that you know, they need to be parented in your own home. You can't control, you can't.
Yeah.
Right. I mean, I think what is, oh, what is hopeful for folks in that situation is that all of the research would point to like one solidly attached person.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: And you can be that person. It does. I mean, it's a big transition and I just, I have a mom right now who is in this sit exact situation, and she is, every time she gets her kids back, it is. A whole transition.
Mm-hmm.
And she expects, she has to expect that the behavior is gonna go up around the transition.
Transitions are really hard. They have a really high cognitive load and switching from home to home is a [00:37:00] big one. Yeah. And so she's really, we've really had to set up how she holds that transition.
Mm-hmm.
Right? So it's like she's holding it by, slowing it way down. She's like, got a snack in the car, she's really taking care of herself.
She's gonna have reduced language as soon as they come into the car. Right. They've got a pattern going that she's had to support with visuals and practices and like saying things the exact same way every single time because she knows it's gonna be hard. And so she's walking into that knowing like. I'm getting three kids who are gonna be edgy.
Like they're probably gonna fight with each other in the backseat of the car.
And so she was going into it, you know, with a groundedness and the expectation that like, this is, I'm gonna manage this.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. And along those lines also, in terms of, you've [00:38:00] mentioned attachment, secure attachment, having a child who's adopted and, you know, people adopt children at all different ages.
And we also know that perinatal psychology says there's an experience in utero that you know, that, that an infant is or a, a fetus is having. And what can adoptive parents do to address and create more secure attachment?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I want them to do the same thing that I want other parents to do.
Right. I certainly have many families that are foster families or adoptive families and, you know, they, they have to work harder,
right? It's like, I'm gonna expect that I'm gonna have to work harder. I'm gonna have to take care of my own nervous system more. I'm gonna have to slow it down more.
I'm gonna [00:39:00] have to like really eliminate No, not stop, don't. I'm gonna, I have to do those things because I have a child whose nervous system because of the trauma they've been through. Because, because of whatever reason. Right. Is more sensitive, activated, hypervigilant. And so from my perspective, that makes these kinds of tools even more critical.
Right. Because, you know, there are, and there also are some children who just, they just come that way. They just come a little bit more wired, a little bit more tightly. And maybe they have some kind of trauma history or maybe you get an ADHD or ASD diagnosis at some point in time, or PDA or something like that.
And maybe you don't.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Right. For whatever reason, 'cause you don't want one or because I, you know, for whatever reason. But what you do have is like the [00:40:00] behavior, the more reactive nervous system and the need to do, you know, to sort of 10 x your parenting.
Charna Cassell: All, same, same.
And then with neuros spicy kids or a trauma history, it's like turning the volume up on your own nervous system regulation and real extra attention to earlier interventions. Not using, not, don't stop all the kind of like negative languaging. Yeah. And the anchoring. I really like that. The, the, you know, again, with, with, I'm thinking of dogs, it's like they're chewing on something.
You don't wanna chew em, give them a bone you do want 'em, it's okay to chew. Right. This is a toy. Totally. This is not a toy. Right. Like redirection.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah.
So important.
Charna Cassell: And yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: So, so important. I also think most things can be solved with praise.
And people all, you know, the parents that I work with are like Chelsey you don't get it.
There's nothing to praise. This is my problems. My kid is like hitting like [00:41:00] crazy and like swearing and throwing chairs. And kids need a lot more praise than they get.
When It needs
to be high quality praise.
And I think this sort of like circles back to that conversation about tone.
Right. And our, honestly, even our own nervous system, right. It feels so much better to notice what your kid is doing well than it does to be like, are you seriously hitting again?
Right. It feels better, right? And that feeling state. I mean, it changes everything, right? It makes it so much easier for the kid to do what they need to do and for me to give them the kind of direction that they need.
So I, that's a really big one for me.
Charna Cassell: You know, positive reinforcement even with like, couples that I work with when they're not nice to one another and just the amount, like the, the meanness that can be in the space and naming that and giving them a simple exercise of appreciations, like every day.
[00:42:00] Acknowledging yeah. So that the, the cognitive bias of looking for the ways that the person is an asshole or looking for what isn't working rather than shifting totally into, let me orient 'cause I know every night I'm gonna give you feedback about what is working. Yes. You know, it's like shifting the goggles that you see the world through.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: A hundred percent.
Charna Cassell: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: And if you, it's like if you go to the playground and you just listen.
Mm.
Like if you just sit on the bench at a playground and listen to what people are saying to children it's like, don't go up the slide. Stop throwing the stand. Don't do this. Don't go over there. Not that way.
Over. It's like constant.
Yeah.
Right. And if you just, I mean, I would, I would quit a job if somebody talked to me like that all day long. I would, I would leave. Yeah. I'd be totally out. Mm-hmm. And so then the task is like, okay, I gotta, you have to change what you see.
And sometimes, you know, sometimes [00:43:00] that means like you have to praise just like a little tiny intention.
Of doing the right thing.
Charna Cassell: I led a rites of passage group, like 11 to 14-year-old girls, and there was a, a male guide for a boys group, and he was telling a story about this boy who couldn't sit still and was always like, you know, had ADD and was doing all the things.
And he gave him the, the title and the job as the, the Lizard Keeper. So it was like, like finding the lizard and keeping the lizard that became, and it like settled this kid's system down, which I love. I have a really sweet image of that. It's like, he's such a good lizard keeper.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah, totally. Kids need that.
It's like, oh, this is how I can like, show up here. Yeah. How I can anchor into this space. And most of the time when people have a child who's hitting. Or like doing [00:44:00] some other tricky behavior it's because they don't know, the kid doesn't know what they're supposed to be doing or they can't do it for themself yet.
Right. And that's such a beautiful example because it, like you can always come up with some way to orient your child. Mm-hmm. Right? It's like, the other day we, I was cooking with my kids and they were, it was like a cake. So there was like flour and stuff that was like going into the bowl and, you know, there's a limited number of cups of flour which means that not everybody's gonna get to put the flour in.
I had to give one, so they're getting a little, a little edgy. And well, I gave one of them the job of Egg Shell Crusher. Right. It's the same thing as Lizard Keeper. It's like, here's a, here's like a thing that you can crush these eggshells with. It's not really a job, but like, it is good for the garden.
Charna Cassell: It's so satisfying too though, right? I, oh, crushing eggshells. It's very [00:45:00] tangible and like tactile. Yeah.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: And then we're not fighting over like, who's gonna put the flour in.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Excellent, excellent. Creativity there. So a huge focus of my work with people of all ages is about embodiment, right?
Mm-hmm. It's, and that, that goes beyond anchoring yourself and your body. It's, you know, it's like your values, how you relate to others, et cetera. Mm-hmm. How do you what are some tools you could give a parent for how to raise an embodied child? Who knows what feels good to them?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Hmm. Yeah, I think that modeling is really important on that one.
And so I wanna make sure that I am noticing how my body feels and articulating that to my kids. Mm-hmm. I also think we want to our children to be to have experiences where they're being asked to read their bodies and respond to their bodies. Right. And with, you [00:46:00] know, I think this comes up a lot around sugar and sweets and food and that kind of thing for parents and, and kids. I personally think it's fine for a child to eat seven pieces of candy on Halloween and then have a tummy ache. or, or 20 pieces of candy. They're probably not gonna eat 20, let's be real.
Right. And then I'm like, oh yeah, how's that make you feel? Right. It's like if I have a kid who isn't reading their body, which is really common.
Yeah.
Right. Kids who like start doing something and then they have a pee accident or older kids that are like, I don't know, eating all this junk food and hiding it in their room or whatever.
On a little kid I'm like, oh wait, let me feel your tummy. Is it, oh, I feel the spaghetti over here. It's like, oh, there's the peaches. Right. And I'm just engaging with them about how things feel.
Right. And I think you can do that. It's not just food. Of course, there's lots of ways that you can and spaces you can do that.
I also think when kids. [00:47:00] Have the experience of like, I felt kind of weird around that person. Right. That's really important to, to tend to. Like one of my daughters recently, so they're 10. And so there's a lot of social stuff that is sort of like emergent and arising for them.
And they have a friend who they describe her as like, not having, I actually think they use the word boundaries, not having any boundaries and like sort of taking their stuff, but then getting mad, like reaching into their desk and taking a pen, but then getting mad if they wanted to borrow her pen. And as we're talking about that, it's like, oh, that, you know, like, I kind of don't like that. Like, that makes me not feel good. And it's like, oh yeah. Tell me more about how you feel when that happens. I definitely don't wanna say, oh, just give her, let her borrow the pen or like, just tell her, I don't know.
No, I want them to know that like, [00:48:00] there are signals in my body that I could listen to. Right. It's like when my tummy feels tight or when my chest feels that way. Like, it's okay to listen to that and say like, Hey, I don't wanna play. I think that's especially important for, for girls.
Charna Cassell: Not dismissing.
What your kids are, are feeling and reporting. I mean, it's hard if you're, if you tend to dismiss your own experience, you're going to dismiss your kids' experience. That's just like, it's, it's tricky for people. So yeah. People have to be connected to their own sense of awareness and not dismiss their own feelings and needs in order to be present to their kids.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Totally. And I, you know, I think this stuff happens in just like very small, granular kinds of moments. Right? It's like, happens on the way to school or it happens like when you're at the grocery store and like someone's looking at you kinda [00:49:00] weird. And there is like, there is a tension, right?
It's like I want my child to be able to, speak up for themself.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: And I also want them to, to notice like how, how I'm feeling. Or like an example of that is like, my kids don't like to, well they're, they're working on it, but they would prefer I order for them at a restaurant. And we've been in a pattern where I just order for them because they were just very little and now they're not as little.
Right. And they could kind of order for themselves, but yeah. We had to work on it. Right. And I might have a kid who says like, well I, my tummy feels funny when I'm at a restaurant and the waiter's asking me what I want and I wanna be careful that like, yeah, we could notice that. That doesn't mean I'm gonna be like, okay, you don't have to order at the restaurant.
It's like, okay. I wonder what would help.
Charna Cassell: Just, just that distinction and like, kind of like I, I see a like a knob that, a volume that like slides from here to [00:50:00] here and if here is totally being dismissive and here is always being like, oh, no discomfort.
You can never feel any discomfort. How are you feeling? Like, and, and so how parents can have a space where they're listening to their kids' feelings, but there's also you know, structure. There's also like, how do you keep stretching your capacity? You know, how do you build self trust in a kid? It's like, well, they have to do things for themselves.
You can't do everything for them.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah. And you can't, it's important. I think this is a really important thing for parents right now, because they, people want their kids to like, know about their feelings mm-hmm. And listen to their bodies and feel heard and. Sometimes they take it too far. It's like the next thing we know, we're talking about how you have all these feelings about brushing your teeth and it's like, well, let's let's just, [00:51:00] it's fine to have feelings about brushing your teeth, but let's move this forward.
So there's some movement here, right? And we don't get stuck.
Charna Cassell: And so in that example, how could a parent navigate that? Because I think, yes, we're in the Bay Area and California where we value feelings and there's a lot of reactive, intense, like toxic empathy in the, you know, American culture and very different parenting styles out there.
And so how do we find the middle ground?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Yeah. It's, this is really important. This is so, so important. And I, if it's an activity of daily life, I mean, I think this goes back to like, where is the resistance coming from? Like why, why is this going on? And if I'm trying to get my kids to brush their teeth and like move through the bedtime routine, I wanna think about like, what is the next step and is this a thing that I, [00:52:00] that where are like feelings really matter or is it just a transition problem?
It's probably a transition problem. Right? And so, then I am bringing my empathy. I'm like bringing the feeling kind of. Feeling in the way that I show up and I'm gonna break it way down. I'm not gonna be like, I know you feel mad. It's so, also so easy to get the feelings wrong. Right? So if I'm like, you're so mad about brushing your teeth, and my kid doesn't really feel mad, they feel, I don't know, frustrated and annoyed.
Now I've like layered on this experience that doesn't feel right to the child on top of the transition. And like, they're gonna throw the toothbrush at you. Right. I would far rather have you say something like, here we go, open drawer. There, it is right. And then maybe you start brushing your own teeth.
[00:53:00] Or maybe you have the, you know, the next step to, to move them through.
Charna Cassell: I could just sit and ask you parenting questions all day long, yet we have to end. So is there, do you have a brief exercise of all the different things that we've talked about, is there some nugget practice that you would like to leave our listeners with?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: I think that the, probably the most important thing is praise. And so if I was gonna have folks do one thing today, it would be to cha take a chunk of time and allow your language to move away completely from correction direction instruction, so that everything you say is a positive noticing of what your child is doing. And sometimes [00:54:00] that is like, you could use sports casting where you're just like labeling everything the kid is doing. Well, I wanna keep it authentic.
Right?
I wanna keep it authentic and real. But it's worth giving it a shot for an hour or two hours and then letting yourself off the hook and just noticing like what happens when I let everything else fall away and I only say positive things to this kid, what goes down?
And if you do need them to do something, like if it's dinner time and I need them to set the table. Quite possibly, I can just say, wow, you're getting ready to set the table. You remembered to get plates and forks, right? You're thinking about what else we need. I can move them forward that way if I must give a direction.
But that's, yeah, that's what I would say.
Charna Cassell: That's great. And you know, and I, for any of you out there that parents that are listening, try this also with your co-parents. [00:55:00] I, I feel like there's totally, you know, like the little kid who got criticized is so alive and so many parents, and they're so sensitive to feedback that frustrated feedback from their, from their partners, you know, and they, yeah.
We all, we all need a little more encouragement.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: We do. It's so easy to see, especially your partner, like all the things that they're doing wrong. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And everybody, everybody, adults need it too. Mm-hmm. Everybody needs to hear a little bit more about what they're doing well.
Charna Cassell: What you're doing is so essential.
And I honestly wish that every parent got to have this kind of coaching. It would be a really different world. So thank
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: you. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. It's been lovely to have this time together.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. And how can people find you if they wanna dive deeper, if they wanna work with you?
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Mm-hmm. Well, they could go to our website or they could go to our Instagram.
So my Instagram [00:56:00] is @DrChelsey_Parenting. Our website is guidingcooperation.org.
Charna Cassell: Great. Great. Thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Chelsey Hauge-Zavaleta: Thank you.
Charna Cassell: A couple years ago before I created my online course, someone asked me if I could teach everybody one thing, what would it be? And ultimately, as humans, we have the universal experience of being in these bodies that get dysregulated and overwhelmed when we're stressed out. And when I think of a population that is often the most stressed out is parents.
So I wanted to let you all know. Especially given the topic of this particular episode, which is focused around parenting and how to raise more regulated, calm children, is I'm starting a group in January. And it's not just for parents, but you are so welcome to get the support, to get the repetitions and practices that are gonna [00:57:00] rewire your brain through your body, through physical practice and the support of other people. There's value in venting and talking and talking it out.
There might be a little bit of that in there, but this is literally hands-on physical practice that we're gonna get to do on a weekly basis through the winter season. And I know as parents it's so hard to prioritize your own needs and yourself, and I'm encouraging you 'cause ultimately the payoff is huge for you to create more internal peace, which helps you slow down, see your behavior and respond differently. If this is something you want, I'm offering an early bird special until November 30th, so there's a reduced price. If you want more information, go to passionate life.org.
