Show Notes
The Pleasure Process: Keys To Cultivating Embodied Desire with Susan Morgan Taylor
Charna Cassell: [00:00:00] Welcome back to LaidOPEN Podcast. I'm your host, Charna Cassell, and today's guest is Susan Morgan Taylor. She's a somatic seggs therapist who helps couples deepen their intimacy and create lasting, fulfilling connections with over 25 years of experience in Somatic Healing. She developed the Pleasure Keys Process, a powerful approach to reigniting sexual and emotional harmony in relationships.
She's also the creator of The Pleasure Keys Retreats, and a host of the Seggs Talk Cafe podcast. Susan is a woman after my own heart. She's had such a rich, interesting background and intuitive healing and body work and her own sexual healing path led her to becoming a sex and somatic therapist and working with couples and helping them have more embodied pleasure. And it's just a testament to, [00:01:00] you know, a certain amount of courage that it takes to be this kind of practitioner. I think that, that there's a lot of fear around seggs and seggsuality for people.
And you need a guide. You need to know that you can get to the other side of this. I know that that's what I've been for people and that even, you know, as I, when I was a kid and reading certain books like, Someone survived this experience to write this book, or someone survived these experiences to then heal and, become this kind of practitioner gave me a sense of hope.
So I hope that you find this useful and, , and inspiring. So here we go. Welcome Susan
Charna Cassell: [00:02:00] I'm so glad to have you here today.
Susan Taylor: Thank you for having me. I'm excited for our conversation today.
We're gonna have a lot fun.
Charna Cassell: Yeah, there's, there's lots of ways I was saying offline that our paths intersect in a variety of ways, and you have a background in massage therapy being an intuitive healer.
, And I'm really curious about the different ways that you've blended that with your work around somatic seggs education and , couples counseling.
Susan Taylor: Yeah. Oh, such a big question. I mean, [00:03:00] yeah, it's so interesting in life how, you know, you kind of move on from one thing, but it still follows you in some way.
There's some part of that that still, it becomes a part of you. And I feel like at this point in my life, my work is very expressive of the many different avenues that I've collected over the years. , So. I would say that, you know, the intuitive piece, a lot of that journey for me when I was doing intuitive healing back in 2008, I, I just adore.
I love doing that kind of work and, but really how it's shown up now is it really just helps me dial in to my clients. And I work a lot with couples, primarily with couples, and I can, I really am able to kind of. Feel into what's happening kind of beneath the surface. And we just drop in and we get quiet.
And a lot of that came out of learning how to just trust myself. Mm-hmm. So I think my time as an intuitive healer, it really taught me how to let go of needing techniques. Techniques are important up to a [00:04:00] certain point. They give a certain structure and they help give you the gateway in. But if there comes a time where you have, the technique can only serve you so far, and then there comes a time where, where.
You know, the work teaches you, and this is, it's sort of like a martial art, like you'll hear that if anyone's ever studied martial arts, that's the same concept, right? You kind of learn the moves, but there comes a point when you, the move then moves you, the dance dances you. And so largely that's really how the intuitive work shows up.
It's just,. Really using that to dial into feeling into that space between, as I'm working with a client, I think the somatic work, so somatic meaning of, or pertaining to the body. I know that that word sometimes needs clearing up. I don't know if your listeners, you know, need that clarification, but a lot of people do.
I've always worked with bodies. I was a massage. My first career was as a massage therapist. I've been a dancer my whole entire life, and. I think that the sensitivity and touch, you know, touched base work when I, when I really started to study touch and I've done a lot of work with Betty Martin's Wheel of Consent.
That's a [00:05:00] huge influence on my Pleasure Keys Process that I, that I do with my clients. It really was a game changer for me in terms of really learning the dynamics of, of pleasure and really understanding, like, wow, all those years when I was working in a spa, uh, or working for myself, you know, doing touch base work, it, there's all the lights came on.
When I really started to learn how to clarify, for example, this is the one question I say every couple needs to know the answer to. Mm-hmm. But it's such a game changer of really who is this for? Am I doing what I'm wanting to do? Am I doing what? Let's say in the massage situation, what my client actually wants, you know, there's really, we really don't understand the profundity of that clarification.
Mm-hmm. But when we do and how that applies, especially when, um, we're talking about seggsuality or desire mismatch with couples, which is one of my specialties, it really can be an absolute game changer to understand the depth of that question and why it's so important to answer it most in most situations when there's what I call like the train wreck moments. That couple, a [00:06:00] lot of couples that come to me anyway have had a lot of those. To the extent they're avoiding seggs and intimacy altogether because it's just gone south and they don't know why. They don't know how to, how to back out of it and how to start over.
It's a lot of times 'cause we don't understand who the moment's happening for, who's the touch happening for? Who is the thing that's being done to, or the one who's doing, whose desire are we actually following? So. In all my years spent as a massage therapist. I did that for 25 years, , you know, kind of full-time and then part-time as I did different things and went through graduate school and all that.
But it's always been a part of my life using touch and it really helps to tune in that level of sensitivity and awareness. But having that understanding that there's a difference of who it's happening for, it's a game changer. And I mean, we, there's so much inside of that question. Mm-hmm. But I'll just kind of leave it there.
'cause I don't know what direction we wanna go today. But
Charna Cassell: There's, and inside what you already said, there's like five or six different beautiful openings. Yeah. Yeah. , you know, the, the, the, also the, the thing that you're touching on that's important just as a practitioner, 'cause I wanna get into your [00:07:00] couple's work as well, but is, um.
Who, who is the, who is the touch happening for, or what is the like as a practitioner, not having an agenda. Yeah, but listening. For what is wanting to happen for like, listen, actually listening to the client. And that's something that you're modeling for these couples. Yeah. Right. Versus having, you know, a partner being like, I'm gonna make you come, like having an agenda.
Because it feeds their ego in some way rather than actually, what does your partner want to happen or what does your client want to happen?
Susan Taylor: And even that can be a really dangerous space to play in. Now there's a certain level of intuitiveness and feeling into the moment, but that is in is wonderful, but I think that that can also become a trap because sometimes we can feel that somebody wants something, but we could be totally wrong.
We might be totally wrong. So there that, you know, and that's one domain to play in, [00:08:00] right? Yeah. Like intuitive, intuitive massage, for example. The style of massage that I did for a period of time, um, or just teaching couples erotic massage is wonderful, but there's also so much more that can come when we have the clarity and we have, we're empowered in using our voice.
Because I think in the dynamic you just described, what can sometimes happen is maybe that person that feels that this, their partner wants this kind of touch. Like, oh, I just feel like this is what you want. But that might not, what if that isn't true? And that partner's just gritting their teeth. Yeah.
And they're like thinking, well, maybe he's just doing this 'cause that's what he wants. It's not really feeling good for me, but I'm gonna go along with it. But the whole time he was thinking that's what she wanted and that's the very kind of scenario that happens. All the time. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's wonderful to have the skills and the framework and the common language to be able to clear that up.
And that's largely, you know, what I do in my work with the, the Pleasure Keys Process that I developed is really about creating that clarity. From there, then you have the choice. You can choose to apply that and use it or you can choose to kind [00:09:00] of be loose with it. Yeah. And maybe you do play on the edge.
I'm just gonna feel into what I feel like your body's asking for. But it sure is helpful if that other person is empowered in knowing their limits and able to speak up of like, this isn't working for me. , Right. Being able to have the voice and they have that shared language and shared framework is really super important for depths of pleasure and org*sm potential and all these wonderful things that are available when we play intimately.
Charna Cassell: And you mentioned, , it for a moment, but the Wheel of Consent, which is a really important component of, of how you work. Yes. Why don't you just go a little bit over that so that Yeah people have clarity.
Susan Taylor: Well, so yeah. I mean, so that's a, a body of work developed by Betty Martin and she's just an amazing , seggs educator who developed a body of work called the Wheel of Consent, and at its core the wheel is really about creating clarity. Like it, it's hard to describe it because it's really an, it's an experience.
It's not something that you can watch a video on. She did write a book on it, which is what lovely, but even reading a book on it or watching a video, you cannot learn that work by [00:10:00] just watching a video or reading a book. The way we learn it is through the embodied experience of it, through the actual somatic lived experience.
Four different dynamics of touch that happen, and largely it's dependent on that question of who is this happening for? Meaning, whose desire in this moment are we following? Now, it might not even have to do with touch. Like why I think this work is so groundbreaking, so illuminating.
It doesn't have to have to do with seggs or touch because we could have many moments in life where something's happening and you know, one person maybe is thinking the other person wants it and so they're just going along with it. They're not happy about it, but the other person is thinking, well, I was doing it for them and they weren't happy about it either.
You know, any, we could just look at, there's so many moments that happened like that in life, right? But it's nice to be resource and the ability to know how to clear that up and quickly. It's not that we have to have that clarity all the time, but I look at the Wheel of Consent and the Pleasure Keys, by the way, which are very influenced by Wheel of Consent, is really a tool for creating clarity.
And when we have clarity, what happens? The natural byproduct of clarity is there's [00:11:00] more confidence and there's more connection, and there's more. We also get pleasure. Pleasure actually has, a, there's a structure to pleasure. And so what we're doing when we create that clarity, we're, we're consciously creating the context for deeper connection and more pleasure and doing it on purpose.
And it's very easy to do.
Charna Cassell: And, and how your use of the way of consent fits into the Pleasure Keys and like what, if you could spell out what the Pleasure Keys are.
Susan Taylor: Yeah, well, the pleasure case, there's three triads and that consists of what I call wisdom codes. And so there's sort of nine wisdom codes, and it's a framework for understanding how to create that clarity.
So, one of my favorite ones, it's easiest to talk about in a soundbite, like in this format, is what I call the three Ns, which is Notice, Name and Negotiate. . So noticing being the very first, um, well, it's not, it's the second triad notice name. Negotiate is the second triad of the three triads and the Pleasure Keys.
Yeah. And noticing is really that first step. It's really about [00:12:00] being, becoming aware of physical sensations that are in the body. Because what's happening a lot is we're often up in our head. We're in the past, we're in their future. We're anywhere but here and now. And so as we shift our awareness and awareness is one of the Pleasure Keys of the first triad, by the way.
And they all kind of, sort of feed into each other. Yeah. But as we cultivate our awareness and we, we can focus it onto physical sensation, immediate, something really cool happens immediately. We become more president. We're immediately here in this moment now. We don't have to clear our thoughts for an hour stare at a wall, meditate for on a mountain.
You know, like literally in this moment, we can just shift where we're holding our attention at any one time. Is my attention up in my head? Am I on my to-do list? Am I thinking about yesterday or tomorrow? Um, is my attention on the room around me or is my attention on, you know, just noticing the physical sensations.
That I'm aware of. What else am I aware of? So the ability to notice is really the gateway in to all the other [00:13:00] dynamics we work within the Pleasure Keys and I, I, the same is also true in the Wheel of Consent. Um, I have some different ways that I've embodied that work and I bring in different pieces and influences of Dao seggsuality and mm-hmm.
Um, some different things that I bring in. But really the ability to notice if we don't have good access to that, we won't have access to what we want. Yeah, good access to really know what's my yes, what's my, no, what's my, maybe we will not be able to access that. And so what happens is a lot of times couples go to immediately trying to negotiate something.
One partner wants something, , the other does or doesn't, let's say they don't usually, that's usually when people have problems, right? Yeah. When everything's aligned, it's easy. Yeah, I don't think I'll be like, oh, we all want different things. And they go maybe into trying to getting the thing that they want, but they don't have the, these first couple of pieces in place of the ability to notice what's happening, what's my body feeling in response to my partner's request?
How do I know if I'm a yes or no? Or maybe I'm a maybe and if I'm a maybe then what? What needs to change? What do I want? Or what do I need so that I could provide that thing? So that's all [00:14:00] under the skill of noticing.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. And
Susan Taylor: the second skill is. Ability to give voice to it, to actually ask for or speak the thing I want.
I need, or even sometimes it's just I notice and sometimes it's, I notice that right now I don't know. I don't know what I want or need. . Sometimes that's what's true and when that's happening, oftentimes the way to work with that is to just slow down. Reduce intensity. Take a little a break. Just P, just pause and be still.
We allow so little time for that. We always want sort of the immediate thing, the immediate answer. I have to find the thing that I want, find the thing that I need. And sometimes when we don't know, it's just a matter of, let me just slow down. Maybe I just need to breathe. Maybe I need to just take a break.
Okay. And then maybe something bubbles up and I can then, I can then name it. Then the negotiating is the third triad, and that's a much more complex, , and nuanced thing that's. Too difficult to actually put into words. It's really a lived experience that deals with the different dynamics of how do we actually negotiate an experience where two people want different things.
We [00:15:00] have to have a giver and a receiver. We have to pull the giving and receiving apart. Mm-hmm. And in order to do that, we have to know whose desire are we following. Mm-hmm. Who or am I gonna follow what you wanna do and , am I willing to do that thing or are we gonna follow what I wanna do? And you're willing to do that thing.
Am I willing to do it with an open heart? It's different than me wanting the thing. I might, it's possible I might want the same thing my partner wants, but it, it's more likely that maybe, okay, you want that thing. It's not really what I, it's not what I want at the same time right now, but I'm willing to give it.
I'd be more than happy to do that for you. Mm-hmm. And give you that thing like to, I would, I'd be more than thrilled. . A lot of times what's happening is we're giving out of obligation. Right. Oh, you want that thing? I have to. If I don't give it to him, he's gonna get upset. No, he did that for me yesterday, so I better do this thing for him today.
You know, instead of the slowing down, let me start to notice what's going on. And I love the question of what would I need so that I could maybe move a little closer. Like if someone's just not sure [00:16:00] there are a no, there just might be something they need they can give to themselves or ask for from their partners so that they could move a little closer in the direction of a willingness.
But we don't wanna ever wanna push that. You know, that's not, it's not about forcing ourselves to do something or get to the thing. The most important thing is that slowing down and the noticing the naming and then getting really good at those skills. The negotiation skills in the third triad,
Charna Cassell: and you named so many different pieces that could help two people who have like different desire levels come closer together.
Yes. Is there any, anything else that you would add to that? Because that is Yeah, it's, it's a big one. If you're a seggs therapist, that couples came to you and they have like, one person doesn't wanna have anything to do with seggs. One person has a lot of trauma. Totally. just, sometimes there's just a different amount of desire, but often one, there's a big shutdown for one person.
Susan Taylor: Yeah, that's true. And my specialty, because this, I was this woman, my specialty is low [00:17:00] libido women. With high libido husbands or partners. Mm-hmm. Male, male partners. So like I know that place so well. 'cause I lived it story, you know. . And I understand a lot of times what's actually happening. So in women's seggsuality, there's a lot of different things that can feed into that alleged or apparent low desire.
And it's not about hormones. See, that's where we get, we kind of go sideways. Mm-hmm. There's, there are certain times where hormo hormones do play a role in our desire for seggs. There no doubt about it, but it, we cannot be reduced. To hormones. Yeah, and I, I've worked with clients, God, I had this woman I worked with many years ago when I was first starting my seggs therapy practice, and she was 25 years old.
, She came because her partner just wasn't in, she wasn't interested in having seggs with her partner. Her partner wasn't interested in having seggs with her. You know, they just had this whole thing going on and she, um, said, my doctor put me on testosterone pellets. You know those pellets that she's 25?
Yeah. It's the whole thing. She's 25 years old. I'm like, are you low? And I mean, you're 25. Well, come to find [00:18:00] out, like not too far into our work, she lost interest in seggs because her partner was shaming her. Yeah. And putting her down and like, you're not gonna wanna be vulnerable and open and seggsy with someone who's putting you down Hmm.
And criticizing you. So it does, it's not about hormones. Yeah. , So I know, I think I lost the thread of what you, I was, I had a point to what I was saying.
Charna Cassell: You were, you were starting to say there are multiple things that can contribute to a lack of Oh yes. Desire in, in a heteroseggsual woman.
Susan Taylor: Yes, thank you. And it's not just hormones, we, so that's where we go wrong. So a lot of times how I work with that is about, we use the Pleasure Keys, we slow down, we learn how to relax, relaxation, and learning how to be present in what's happening in the body.
And then learning how to notice a name tho those two things. First and foremost, there's another piece to this as well. Is that, you know, we have this idea, there's high desire and low [00:19:00] desire and you know, end of story. And we hear a lot in the seggs therapy world around, um, contextual desire versus spontaneous.
Responsive desire versus, which I think is great and it is a thing, but that even that conversation I think is too limited because it's leaving out the arousal map. So the arousal styles or what's called like the erotic blueprints. A lot of people are familiar with that work as well. So we're, we have these different, , archetypes for how we.
Get seggsually aroused and turned on. And it is not the, there's like five main ways, right? So, so one partner might be wired like as the seggsual, like overt seggsual touch. Like let's just get down to g*nitals and kissing and butt and boobs and like the thing, get to the org*sm, get. But if you're with a partner who is wired, let's say energetically or sensually, that will shut them down very, very quickly.
And so, so we need to have, because there's wire, their gateway into seggsual arousal is through a different pathway. It's through tension, distance, [00:20:00] spaciousness, light touch, not going straight for the g*nitals. So you can see how, if we don't understand. Stand that it's very easy to get stuck in this high libido, low libido, uh, myth.
What I really believe is a myth, right, is a myth because if we just reframe the conversation, we're much more empowered in that and we have, , more resources available to us to find our way through it, rather than somebody feeling broken or like they need to be fixed. Mm-hmm. Which is how, you know the couples I work with, you know, the women come in and they really feel like it's their, it's my problem, it's my fault 'cause I don't, you know, I'm low desire and he needs it more. And, , I need to raise my desire to meet his. And it's really what it really is, is what's the pathway in? How do we find the gateway in for you? Right.
Charna Cassell: Right. Well, and, and what, what is desire and what activates it. Yeah. And you know, for one person, 'cause I also, I deal with male clients who also have that, right.
So it's, it's like it can be very gendered and then other times it's. It's
Susan Taylor: Absolutely. [00:21:00] It's not just like the, the typical, the woman has the low desire, the man who's not. That just tends to be what came into my realm. Totally. And I think that's, 'cause that was my story, right? I was the uninterested party in my marriage and then when, you know, how I got to where I'm today, it was like totally finding my way out of that and mm-hmm. Waking up to my seggsuality and being able to help other women through that. But you're right, it, it does go the other way as well. And a lot of times that's partly why, because they have different, um. Blueprints or arousal maps. Mm-hmm. Different ways of actually entering into where they desire to have like genital stimulation for.
Example or intercourse or what we consider the more overt seggsual ways of connecting. But that's ano, you know, we go into that too. There's, so, and we have to broaden the definition of what is seggs, It's very limited.
Charna Cassell: When you're working with, people who identify as heteroseggsual.
Absolutely, yes. You know, when I easy to get caught in that trap. I worked at Good Vibrations many years ago, and it really helped [00:22:00] me see how many men live in this very narrow little box of like what is okay to want. Right, right, right. And then when there, you know, like there were a lot of men who came in with a tremendous amount of shame around wanting to put things in their butts.
Yes. Especially when they were in straight relationships. Right. And, and you know, just as, as an example, but so when you're, or heteroseggsual couples who only know about PIV pen15 and 🌸 and where like even foreplay expanding foreplay is, is a radical act. Yeah. And so it's like, oh, actually taking the time to arouse and to, and, you know, and it could be that it's, yeah.
It's energetic or it could just be that somebody needs a little more time being touched in other places Besides True, yeah. Mean directly on their clit*ris.
Susan Taylor: We never Yeah, that's true. And is, you know, the female body, the way we're wired, we have the same amount of erectile tissue as a man that's just spread over a larger area, and it usually needs a [00:23:00] little more time before it's gonna be like, oh yeah, like I'm ready for physical contact and physical penetration.
But we also discount the fact that, org*sm and seggs can happen with no touch happening at all. I mean, I've had some of the craziest org*sms with my partner not even touching me, just from breath and eye, eye contact, like the energetic, like hot, like what? Like, so I mean, I don't even need the physical. I, you know, I love that part too, but wow.
There's, there's just so much more out there available to us. And I think that can come down some to some of the sacred seggsuality talk too, that you mentioned you wanted to go into.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. That's, well, that's exactly, that's a perfect segue because that, that's a, it's, it's an area that I'm particularly interested in. Yeah. And I would love to hear about, for you, moving from a place of being in a, you know, a relationship where you identified as having low desire and then moving to the trajectory of moving through and discovering sacred seggsuality. And if you could [00:24:00] also define for the listeners who may not know what that is Yes.
What it is, and then also your personal experience of moving into it. How you discovered it?
Susan Taylor: Absolutely. I mean, I think to start, I always, you know, when I was sort of shut down in my marriage and not wanting seggs, like at all, I was even like low desire. I was like, no desire, more or less, you know, every six months maybe I'd, you know, get the urge.
Mm. Um, but always knowing, always feeling I know something more is possible here. That was really what was happening for me. And I, I, there was something more that I wanted. I just didn't know how to, I didn't know how to get it. I didn't know how to create it. I didn't know the pathway there. I had this inkling of it, this feeling in me, and I had heard about, oh wow, it'd be so cool to have like a full body org*sm or mm-hmm.
You know, but I just had no idea how to get there. , And was really stuck and. My awakening happened when I, you know, I left the marriage and eventually underwent the study of my own seggsuality after another like very short relationship a couple years after the marriage ended that sort of left [00:25:00] me in the same place that I felt like I was in in my marriage.
Just sort of feeling like, well, totally unfulfilled and knowing more was possible, but realizing I'd always made my partner responsible for my pleasure. That was really what came out of that. That was the defining moment where I just said, you know, I just want something different so bad. Like, how do I learn this?
And I made a declaration to undergo the study of my own seggsuality and like within a week I was up at the yoga studio and this book jumped off the shelf at me. Tantric org*sm for Women by Diana Richardson. I read it cover to cover probably within a couple of days, and I started to apply the approach to seggs that she, , was speaking about in that book in my own time with my own body.
So I, I was not in a relationship. I'm like, which was actually really nice. Yeah, it just gave me time to dive deep into myself, but a lot of what it is, is really, you know, what is sacred seggsuality? I'll give you my definition of that in a minute, but really it's more than anything about getting present.
It's about slowing down and getting rid of this goal and getting [00:26:00] out of the mind. And so one of the things I had discovered about myself as I embarked on this journey and started to slow down, get really present and get rid of the goal, no more goal. When I would touch myself, it was no longer about trying to just get it off and get to the org*sm.
It was like, okay, let me just slow down and notice what am I feeling in my, and this was before I had all the, you know what I do with the Pleasure Keys? Now, I hadn't found Betty Martin's work with the Wheel of Consent, so I didn't really know what I was actually doing. And I'll, I can talk about that in a minute.
But slowing down notice. Seen sensations in my body getting really, really present. And from that place of deep presence of actually not being in my head anymore.. I also got rid of using fan. I would always use fantasy to like get off, to get to org*sm. And I was like, okay, I really wanna learn how to be in my body.
I wanna, I wanna have this, you know, a different experience. So I learned, I just set fantasy aside completely, and I started to get present in the body. I started to notice what's happening in my g*nitals when I would touch myself, and I actually had a lot of lack of sensation down there. Mm-hmm. Like, I [00:27:00] didn't feel a whole lot.
It was shocking. I was like, oh my gosh, what's going on? But I slowed down, I breathed, I said yes to the feeling of numbness. And an amazing thing happened, and very quickly I had all kinds of emotional releases that started to happen. All this old grief and sadness and anger, frustration, that was all being held on that I just poured outta my heart.
And after I had these big emotional releases, I suddenly started to feel more. I had a self-pleasure session a few weeks later. This was not long into my, you know, I'm gonna figure this out, declaration really just a few weeks. I had an experience where I was self pleasuring, touching, and just, you know, being fully present, not trying to get anywhere, not trying to create any kind of a feeling.
Having way more sensation in my body, I suddenly had this experience of this wave of pleasure to roll up through the bottoms of my feet. My hands were vibrating. My face was like numb and like tingling, and this wave of just pleasure and [00:28:00] sensation rolled up through my whole body, shot out of my heart.
All this love started pouring through me. Tears started running down my, I was like in this state of ecstasy, and I have this realization like, oh my God, I'm having a full body climactic experience and oh my God, pleasure lives in my body. This is in me, love is in me. org*sm is in me. You mean that guy that promised he was gonna give this to me?
It's not in his hands, it's in mine, it's in my body. So it was this moment of deep empowerment of realizing that if I could find this pathway within myself, I could help other women find it. And that I was no longer dependent on like grabbing onto a relationship for love or expecting a man to come in and give me these crazy wonderful, you know, blissful seggsual experiences.
I knew the pathway within my body and I knew I could show really any future lover how to access that. I mean, that's what happened about six months later or so. I did attracted lovely man into my life who was really open to learning and, and [00:29:00] growing and you know, we had a, a lovely time together, just like implementing in the relational space.
Like a lot of the stuff I had just figured out on my own. Let me pause and I want to go to the definition of sacred seggsuality, but I'll pause there for a minute and let you
Charna Cassell: end up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually just moving forward, it would be great if we go a little slower so that we could, 'cause there's so much that you're saying that I would, that I would love to even pull out a part even more.
Sure, sure. 'cause there are a couple things. One thing that's feels really important to, to note in that story, is how relaxation is also about being with the, the moments of tension. Yeah. And, and the pain. And what you were willing to do is to go into the center of the pain or the emotion, which helped you then like, like tension.
If we're trying to avoid something, it, it's like we can't, yeah. We can't quote unquote relax. Like if you're in a massage and someone's rubbing you and it doesn't feel good and you're like, just, just, it's okay. It's okay. You [00:30:00] just get tighter and tighter. So being entering into the thing that you might wanna avoid actually allowed your system to release.
Yes. And then, then days later, it allowed you to have a full body org*sm because whatever. Right. Perhaps emotional blockages. Then you were able to move through them and that's, that's just so beautiful.
Susan Taylor: Yeah. And it's such a good point that you make. And so we can use the bodywork analogy here. Okay. Yeah.
'cause I know you'll get this. , There is a form of tension release in the muscles. Like I, I'm not sure if it's trigger point therapy or, but it's where you actually on a very tight muscle, you actually apply pressure and contract it more. So if your shoulder's real all the way up to your e you know, tight massage therapist might say, I want you to lift your shoulder to your ear as he or she's applying some pressure on one of these muscles here.
And what that actually does is then the muscle, [00:31:00] suddenly it, lets go. So I call, the concept that I call this in my work is called the concept of embrace. Yeah. But the principle of embrace, which is really truly a practice. This is also by the way, a sacred seggsuality practice. We can talk more about that and, and what that is.
But the practice of embrace is about saying yes to exactly what's there as it is the way that it is. And we tend to think, I have to relax, so immediately I'm trying to do something. If you're trying to do something now, you're automatically creating more tension in the body. Tension is the biggest obstacle to pleasure, by the way.
Charna Cassell: Exactly.
Susan Taylor: Right. Whether it's mental tension, emotional tension, physical tension, it's all a manifestation of, , many things. But it's an obstacle to our ability to experience pleasure, org*sm bliss, , desire. It gets in the way of everything, but if we're trying to get rid of it, now we're creating more tension.
So what we wanna do. Say yes to the tension and turn the volume up on it. Yeah. So in my self-exploration, one of the things that happened, I'll get, this is a good example of this. I [00:32:00] encountered, well first there was sort of numbness, like I didn't feel a lot in my g*nitals. Mm-hmm. And I thought I got really upset and like I should be feeling more.
. And the tendency was to resort to fantasy. Let me do that 'cause I know how to do that. Or to like apply more, more pressure, more sensation. Hmm. But because I was trying something new, I was like, wait a minute. No, no. If I want a new experience here, I'm not gonna use fantasy. I'm not gonna try to make something happen by like more sensation.
Right? That's a lot of times what we do. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to cultivate more sensitivity. So I, what I did was I just slowed down and I just said, what if I just say yes to the numbness and I just relax and I dropped towards that and, and, and this is a question I'll use a lot. I do this with my clients, but I do this with myself back then, you know, what else do I feel when I'm numb?
What else is there? Mm-hmm. And next thing you knew, there was all this sadness of just not being, you know, like this grief, this sorrow. So immediately I'm not numb anymore. Right. I'm feeling now.. So that state can shift very, very quickly. Mm-hmm. When we just, we don't make it wrong. And that's really [00:33:00] what relaxation is.
It's saying yes to the thing. And it's also meeting it through physical sensation. Like that's what I think we, people like try to relax. Well, the best way to relax is just to notice physical sensation, actually. Like it's literally that simple. You do that for long enough, keep bringing your mind back as you, your mind wanders somewhere up and come back physical, you'll probably take yourself into a sleep state actually.
Mm. Right until you get practice staying conscious while in a deep, , alpha or theta state, , of relaxation. Yeah. So physical sensation is really the gateway in, and that's why that key of noticing is so important as well, by the way.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. So beautiful. That numbness piece, it's really fascinating.
Even, um, the other day it's like seeing I do, um, I use martial arts based practices with clients. Oh, cool. And also. Do body work. And so this piece of, you know, even supporting the, like, you were describing, um, a, a, a shoulder that's tight, right? Yeah. And, and it's like, oh, let [00:34:00] me be as the practitioner, let me be that scared part of you, or that, you know, shocked part of you, or the part, you know, like.
I'll hold that tension so that the rest of them can relax. Right. Yeah. That's awesome. And so it's getting to explore that and sometimes, you know, the practitioner can amplify it and support it so that the rest of you gets to go like, oh, what a relief. I don't have to hold that all by myself.
Susan Taylor: Exactly.
Charna Cassell: and then that numb, it's, you know, going into whether it's emotional or physical pain. So essential because as you illustrated with that as well, that the numbness can shift so quickly. If we actually, like, it could be like, I'm afraid, wait, now I'm numb, or I'm Oh. And then I'm suddenly sad. Mm-hmm.
It's like how layered they are versus just being like, I'm blank. And it's like, well, what's the quality to the blankness?
Susan Taylor: Right. Yeah. Because if you think about numbness is a, you know, it's a survival response. It's an dissociative response. Oftentimes it's a way we [00:35:00] avoid, avoid feeling something we don't wanna feel.
It doesn't feel safe to feel, we're scared to feel, yeah. It's really a protective mechanism, which is great that we have that. The problem is when it gets frozen in our nervous system and then in our bodies, to the extent that, let's say we are. Totally not interested in seggs. We lose our desire for intimacy or seggs, which is a byproduct of that sort of shutdown, which a lot of that can come from just relational, contextual things mm-hmm.
That are going on, you know? Mm-hmm. If you're with someone who's abusive, like that's not gonna be a safe place to open seggsually or to just have seggsual desire because you are in the wrong part of the brain usually, right? If you're in that prefrontal cortex, your amygdala is activated.
It's looking for threats all the time. We have to be in that parasympathetic, where the amygdala is quieted down. We're in our hind brain. We're in a state where. Like seggs and digestion and hunger. All those things live in the parasympathetic when that, um, active part of the brain is quieted down when there's a sense of felt safety in the body and also in the relational space if we're with another human.
Charna Cassell: [00:36:00] Yeah. And, and so, you know, for one person that numbness can come from like being shamed in, in your relationship from somebody else. It's childhood seggsual abuse. So there's like a real range of experiences that create numbness internally. Right. In like in the c*rvix or in the clit*ris, or it just, even in the heart.
Absolutely. All these parts. The whole body. Yeah. And, and for you, the process of un numbing, right? Mm-hmm. Like de numbing was, was it, um, that one experience, I mean, it's like all these pieces over time contributed to removing and working with layers of numbness, or what was your experience?
Susan Taylor: Well, I mean, my experience, was it how I look at this work?
Mm-hmm. It's really just a pathway. And so I think as women, if you've had given birth to children, I have two kids, I don't know if you do or not, Charna. It's, but it doesn't [00:37:00] matter. It's okay. You can find the pathway regardless. And even men who don't, you know, give birth, can find this pathway as well. It really is the birth process, which is, it's a path of surrender. And so I think it's, I'd like to look at it this way rather than like a thing that I did to like get rid of the numbness. It's really was a pathway that I found by slowing down, relaxing and just say, learning how to say yes, let me feel more, being willing to feel the pain.
That my case, it was mostly emotional pain saying yes. . So give me more, let me feel more. Take me deeper into this. I say yes and leaning towards that discomfort, and that was the place where. The gates opened and from that there was a different perspective and a different, there was more sensation in my body.
'cause I was no longer avoiding feeling, you know, there was a lot of grief in my case. I was no longer avoiding the grief. I went all the way in, I asked for more. I turned the volume. I mean, know it sounds sadistic. Give me more, let me feel more. Take me all the way. I just want, you know, I'm ready. I'm ready, I'm ready.
And that's the [00:38:00] birth process as well. When we give birth, it's about surrender and saying yes and sinking towards, you know, if a woman's in birth and labor and she's backing away from the pain, she's holding her breath, she's resisting that process, it's gonna be much more painful. It's gonna take longer, be much more unpleasant.
And it can, you know, it still might hurt, but it can be over much more quickly if we are able to relax. And so it's really a pathway, and that was really what I had discovered. Mm-hmm. Was that pathway. And I was no longer afraid to let myself feel deeply. And to have whatever emotion was there, whatever sensation I was just learned to say yes to it.
And so that, you know, became a process. And I would say it's an ongoing journey, though there's not nearly the amount of debris there, as I really deepened in that work. It's really a feminine spiritual path of sacred seggsuality where we're literally using our. We're using our seggsual energy, but also our, our physical seggsual anatomy and learning how to breathe into that and take consciousness into that because we [00:39:00] hold wounds from lifetime's.
Collective trauma or personal trauma is held in the circuitry of our body. And so I. That work, you know, the sacred feminine work, I have a teacher I studied with on that. . It really moves the needle when we just are able to learn that quality of embrace and breath and softening and just saying yes.
And then the gates open and things look different and literally like that's pleasure in life force and org*sm. Live there right under with the anger and the fear and the frustration. That's part of it. So we can just say yes to that. The bliss is also like, , enmeshed with that they're not actually separate.
Charna Cassell: Exactly.
Susan Taylor: There's a gateway into org*sm. Like anger is actually, can be a gateway into org*sm. I've had that experience as well. I'm just in a healing session
Charna Cassell: And grief, right? You know, it's like as big as your container is for grief. It's that big for pleasure and joy and cry your way into org*sm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, but also the, it takes a [00:40:00] certain amount. I mean, I'm, I imagine you've seen this as well, especially if you're working primarily with, with women. , My male clients will do their, their m*sturbation homework. Women so rarely do. Yeah. Over like 23 years. I know of working with women, you know, working with, with people around this, women, I can count on my hand the number of women who will do that homework.
And so the courage that it took for you to move towards it is, is exceptional, right? Yeah. Where you were like, okay, I'm willing, I feel like, , my female clients. Have a lot more willingness to feel their grief, even go into their anger, but mm-hmm. But pleasure's a really tricky one. It's loaded, right? Yeah.
Susan Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that, you know? Yeah. In, in a male body, obviously the genital anatomy is hanging outside the body. I mean, they're touching that in the womb, you know, like it's normalized that little boys are gonna touch themselves, whether it's for girls, our stuff's internal.
There's a lot more shame around it as well. You know, [00:41:00] like we're given messages. I mean the word pudendal nerve. The pudendal nerve, which enervates, , part of our g*nitals means shameful. Like, that's literally the translation of that word and it's Right. So it's like just built in that, yeah, I think we've all had experiences I did as a kid being shamed for exploring my body seggsually and, oh, don't touch that.
So for women it is, so it's important to do that. But you're right, I think I've had that as well. And yet that was the place that moved the needle for me the most was making that time to actually touch myself, g*nitally seggsually. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was the place that really dialed it in for me. , So I think it's unfortunate that so many women are reluctant or resistant to spending that time with themselves and moving through the very thing that's probably in the way of whatever reason they're coming to you for.
Right. Like the shame or the feel, the fear of being selfish. If I feel too much pleasure or it's dirty to feel pleasure or whatever the thing is that's there, I guess, you know, that's the thing to work on.
Charna Cassell: All, all of that. Right? And it can be so complex because there [00:42:00] can be, there can even be org*sm as a child when you're being abused and so it gets so complicated and pleasure.
All these things kind of get like merged together, melted together, and how do you like peel them apart and start to go like, right. You know, there can be. Excitement and anxiety can be separated. Pleasure. And you know, and shame can be separated. Back to sacred seggsuality. Yeah. And if somebody wants to step onto that path and explore having a more spiritual relationship to their seggsuality instead of having it be so transactional.
Yeah. What are some of the components.
Susan Taylor: It's really not as seggsy, I think, as people want it to be. When you hear the word sacred seggsual, it sounds so mystical, and it can be, you know, it certainly can be, but it's not usually the place that we start, right. It's very mundane. Where do we begin? We start with the body.
We start with noticing. We start with feeling. We start with relaxing. We start with saying yes to the [00:43:00] thing that's there we can say yes to. I notice that I'm wanting to get somewhere. Right now I'm noticing I want this to be more, this moment to be more than what it is. I'm noticing. I want Susan's answer to that question to be more exotic, you know?
But that's the, that is the paradox. Mm-hmm. That really truly is the paradox, and that in a sense is what makes it. It makes it sacred. Mm-hmm. Because it's not so simple. Right. The mystery is revealed in. Understanding that the duality there is really no duality yet. We learn through duality. Mm-hmm. We acknowledge the duality, but it's really all, it's all one thing.
So I was talking a minute ago about anger. Could be as we feel, feel, feel and say Yes. Yes, yes. All the way through it turn, it can turn into pleasure. Mm-hmm. Can turn into a lot like literally cause full body org*smic experiences. So how does that happen if anger is this? Thing I'm trying to not feel. And so largely the sacred seggsuality path, how I see it, is a path of union.
It's a path of, , non-duality, of non-dual, like learning to [00:44:00] understand all sensations that arise. They're neither good nor bad. Mm-hmm. Now I can say one feels more pleasurable than other. And I, we develop preferences for things as our human condition. We prefer things, but sometimes that can be limiting as well.
It can keep us in this idea of separateness, and when anytime we're doing that, we're cutting ourselves off from an aspect of the divine, an aspect of God, which is available to us through our se. seggsual energy is the life force energy. It literally is the thing that creates life, physical life. New humans come from seggsual engagement physically, but also the energetic piece. How does that whole human grow in there? Isn't that just such a mystery? It's amazing. You know, where is that even coming from? I mean, it's, if you really like trip out on that for a minute, you know, it's like, whoa. Mm-hmm. So if you look at the seggsual energy, it's truly the most powerful force in the universe.
And all of life is seggsual. I mean, I can't even look out the window and not see seggs everywhere. You know, it's [00:45:00] everywhere and it's how we got here. And so how, how could that not be somehow holy or sacred? It's not separate. And where we go wrong is we separate it. We say, you know, that the religious programming that we have that seggs is sinful or dirty, m*sturbation is wrong, or it's somehow not part of God is, that's the biggest sin of all.
That's the biggest lie of all. In the religious brainwashing. Mm-hmm. It's the biggest misunderstanding is that our seggsuality is somehow separate or dirty or shameful. And that's just been the programming that's been put through the collective consciousness of our modern day culture through the, the distortion of the truth.
Charna Cassell: Right. Well, and this, this piece that's so important, the dependence on keeping things as dual. Mm-hmm. It's because in the reality, if there's, if there's full self-acceptance, which is like having a non dule relationship with yourself, right? It's like, oh, I'm gonna accept this, this, , you know, this angry part of me and this, [00:46:00] this joyful part of me and like all aspects of myself.
Yeah. If I embrace that. Then there aren't these contractions that are stopping pleasure or just energy to flow through my system, which then if I come together with another body, yeah. Allows it to flow through both of us, which is a, a, a really profound experience. But I, I think it's so important to be, like, this is also a, it can be a solo path.
It can be a, a solo practice that you then, yeah. Ignite with another person.
Susan Taylor: Absolutely. Yeah. It's right. And it's really about our relationship to things. Yeah. So what you're speaking to in a solo practice, it's our relationship. For example, one aspect of the solo practice is what is my relationship to my emotions and my contracting around them, crystallizing around them, not wanting to feel them.
Am I outta control with them and just totally unconscious around them and vomiting my emotions all over everybody? Or am I in a place of surrender and awareness and presence? Mm-hmm. Relaxation, presence and awareness. That's [00:47:00] the first triad, by the way of the pleasure, keys, , and in right relationship.
So that I can, , begin to cultivate re relationship non-dual. It's, we learn non-duality through duality. I mean that again is the paradox. Yeah. And one of the ways in sacred seggsuality and sacred relationship that we create that, , seggsual charge and erotic energy, that desire to come into seggsual union is through duality, through like consciously creating difference.
That's the thing, literally, that causes combustion to happen, right? We have to have spaciousness. Mm-hmm. We also have to have to, , different like the polarity of, . Of the energies is what cre literally creates that magnetism and it's so fun.
Charna Cassell: What's so interesting, right, is, is I, I, I would love to just have a conversation about paradox.
Like I could talk for an hour about paradox, but it, but it is because there is this piece, it's, it's like, okay, so polarity creates this attraction and this turn on, [00:48:00] and yet. What we're also looking at is union. Yeah. And we're looking at one person is a mirror of the other and our system is actually not separate.
And so I I, right. It's just such a, yeah. Paradoxes are endlessly interesting to me.
Susan Taylor: Yeah, me too. And it's the nature of the universe. It's the nature of the divine paradox. Mm-hmm. I mean, we could go on and on about this, but Exactly. You know, there's different paths in the spiritual tradition. We can look at the path of transcending.
All that is right, transcendence. But there's also the path of embrace, which is saying yes to that I am the all that is I am everything. The consciousness is all. It's it. You know, there's no separation. It's all God or none of it's God. And I have to transcend and I both are right. Both are pathways into to wholeness and union.
Yeah. And oneness. Right? One is through transcending, the other one is through moving through and, and embrace, which is a, just a slightly different pathway.
Charna Cassell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The thing that's, uh, [00:49:00] I, I've been thinking about lately and interested in is the complexity of when you have a, , like, so I wrote an article about, , One Taste recently.
Oh yeah. When you have a community or a, a path that's about spirituality, but also seggsual, you know, seggsuality and there's how psychology holds ego, and then how the spiritual world holds ego. Yeah. Right. And so the spiritual world hold holds ego as something to dissolve while healthy, you know, I don't like the word healthy, but in the psychological realm.
You need a strong enough ego, you need to have a strong sense of ego. If it's fragmented from trauma, usually. Yeah. But to have the ability to know what feels good to you and to take a stand and give consent, you need to be embodied and have good ego strength. Yeah. Right.
Susan Taylor: Hmm.
Charna Cassell: So what is, what is, [00:50:00] um, seggsual freedom to you?
How would you define that?
Susan Taylor: Well, yeah, well, I'll tell you what, it's not for me. It's not, you don't have to like take your shirt off and run around the lake and, you know. Have an open relationship, like, you know, all those things are fine.
I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with that, but I think we have this idea that I'm not seggsually liberated unless suddenly I'm in a polyamorous relationship and I'm going to seggs parties and I'm really flamboyant with my seggsuality, really free with my seggsuality externally to the world because I'm not like that.
I'm a little more reserved, you know? But I feel pretty liberated and pretty confident in my seggsuality, but I don't have a need to like have to. That's fine. If that's what you wanna do, go for it. That's awesome. So I think it's really about finding what it is for you. How do you wear your seggsuality in a way that's authentic and unique for you?
And how well do you know yourself, right? How well do you, are you in touch with what your needs and wants and desires are? [00:51:00] Are you able to both give and receive? Fully and unconditionally. And I don't just mean necessarily in a seggsual way though. Yes, that's certainly part of it, but are you able to open yourself to deep receiving?
From life. I mean, that is seggs. Seggs to me is just about connection and the cycle of giving and receiving, which are one thing. They appear to be op opposite, but they're equal and yet opposite, and it completes the cycle. So how good am I at discerning that? Am I able to, what's my capacity for receiving? Can I expand that capacity?
Can I also expand my capacity to give willingly, not out of obligation? Right? That's conditional giving. Mm-hmm. But really unconditional. So seggsual freedom is knowing oneself. Yeah. And finding that pathway within your own self. And I think in order to do that back to the ego conversation, we have to know ourselves.
We have to have a sense of self in order to transcend the self, to dissolve the self. It's gonna usually work out a lot better for most of us and be less, far less traumatic. [00:52:00] 'cause it's a pretty intense, moment going through an experience of sort of when that part kind of. Dies. That can be kind of a scare.
Mostly terrifying momentarily. Mm-hmm. But so, right. So to have that groundedness in that, to be able to move beyond it and into a different experience, to dissolve. We need both. We have to be able to hold ourselves in that, but also be able to to move beyond it. In order to do that, we have to have a, some kind of container to hold ourselves.
Right. Otherwise, it's just, what am I surrendering into? It can be very much scarier, really. Absolutely right. So there's two, it's like the duality, right? Mm-hmm. There's the, the witness and the creator and the creation are one thing it's just about the relationship between the two. The one who's witnessing and the one who's experiencing.
Charna Cassell: Yeah. Beautiful. And is there a particular practice that you have been in that helped you? Learn how to, on a somatic level, on an emotional [00:53:00] level, surrender and keep surrendering.
Susan Taylor: I mean, again, it's not seggsy. This is not like some crazy mystical, no, but it literally is the simplest thing. It's, yeah, it was just learning how to actually feel, learning how to hold my awareness in my body on sensations first.
First physical sensations from their emotions, from their energy. Mm-hmm. And from energy. Whoa. Now there's like this other world opening through energy. I mean, there's a whole realm there. Universes that are not accessible. Otherwise. So starting with the most obvious, which is the physical sensation, just learning how to be present in my body.
And there yeah, there's different practices for how to do that. Um, one that really helped me, and this is easy 'cause your listeners can look it up, um, there's a pr, a yogic practice called Yoga Nidra. Ancient yogic practice. One of my absolute favorite things that, you know, has a lot of the [00:54:00] elements of what I've, what we've been speaking to, uh, around relaxation, presence, awareness, noticing, literally it's a practice of noticing and as physical sensation and working with duality.
What's so great about it is you just lay there on the floor in a really nice, comfortable, you can put in a whole bunch of blankets and pillows down, make a little nest, you know, and you're just kind of being guided through it. You're listening guide or you can guide yourself. I find it helpful to have an audio to guide, but that practice helped me a lot as well as.
Before I found Yoga Nidra even, um, just the self-pleasure practice, but some people need a little more structure. Yeah. Right. And so I was just flying blind. I'm like, but I was able to hold myself in it and keep myself up. But if you need more, um, yoga Nidra is wonderful. I also have a, if your listeners would like, and I can give it to you for the show notes, I have a.
Guided meditation called the Sensual Awareness Practice, which is maybe like a 15 minute practice that incorporates the same principles as yoga and dry. I can give you the link for that for your listeners. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Yeah, it's very, it is very simple. The solutions often are very, very simple, and [00:55:00] the reason they're hard to do is because we're, you know, largely we get lazy or we're expecting something much more glamorous than that.
Right, and that's the ego, right? Yeah. So if you can let that part go and show up fully for the thing, and trust, just trust the process, trust your body and get curious. See what happens. Find out for yourself. Like just do an experiment on yourself. That's the best way. And gateway in to start to experiment and start to notice what you're.
What's available right now in this moment. And, and the more you're able to notice, get more refined in that. The more things start to open up, the more you start to notice and the more you, you'll find that pathway in to the sacred through the physical.
Charna Cassell: Beautiful. Thank you. And how else can, can the listeners find you?
Susan Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. So my website is pathwaytopleasure.com. That's where all my stuff lives. , And then I also do have a, an ebook called The Pleasure Keys, which talks about the first triad. If your listeners would like to get a copy of that, it's at pleasurekeys.com. And that walks you [00:56:00] through those first three triads.
And there's some practical stuff in there as well that's useful for if someone wants to kind of learn, like how do you take these first steps? That ebook is really lovely for that as well.
Charna Cassell: Awesome. Thank you so much.
Susan Taylor: Thank you.
Charna Cassell: If you've learned ways of being from your family of origin that don't serve you, the reality is that you've been practicing unconscious behaviors for decades, and you have to engage in new practices in order to unlearn them and do something different.
Studies show that it takes 30 to 60 days to create a new habit. So really nobody can create this change besides you. You're the one who needs to make that choice.
Unless you engage in new practices under stress, you'll default to what you know best and what you've practiced up until now. You can't think your way out of this.
For over 35 years, I've been training and investing my time and energy into to increase my own self-awareness and my own capacity to do things differently than how I learned to do them.
I have found that there are very key [00:57:00] practices that help people, myself included, transform. You may notice that I include practices at the end of each of my podcast episodes. I've created a course based on what I see as these key principles, and it's filled with a month's worth of daily practices, and you'll receive these videos along with exercises you can do on your own in order to transform your habits.
For more information about my course, Pathways to Peace, Mindful Practices for Transformative and Vibrant Living, you can go to charnacassell.com.
Once again, thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed that episode, please like rate and review and share it with your friends. If you'd like to stay connected, you can follow me on facebook or Instagram at LaidOPEN Podcast. That's L-A-I-D-O-P-E-N-P-O-D-C-A-S-T, and you can find out more about my work at passionatelife.org, or you [00:58:00] can join my newsletter and read my blog and take a course with me or buy my workbook at charnacassel.com.
We all have different capacities, but I believe in our capacity to grow and change together. Until next time.
