[00:00:00] Charna Cassell: Welcome back to Late Open Podcast. During my hiatus from recording , I've been building an online course on how to live the passionate, pleasure filled, peaceful life you want, reduce self sabotaging behavior, and gain control over your nervous system.
[00:00:14] Charna Cassell: Creating courses for people around the world to understand the impact of trauma on their nervous system and relationships, and how they can heal is something I've wanted to do for over a decade. I'm thrilled it's finally happening. I'll keep you posted as to when it's launching. For now, you can also sign up for my newsletter, read my blog, or send questions to be answered at charnacassell.
[00:00:38] Charna Cassell: com. Today's guest is Misha Byrook, a leadership coach and consent educator. He specializes in supporting men who've done sexual harm to take accountability and restore integrity with their partners and communities.
[00:00:52] Charna Cassell: Welcome, Misha.
[00:00:54]
[00:01:41] Mischa Byruck: Hi.
[00:01:42] Charna Cassell: Hi. I've been looking forward to this conversation. I found out about you through Charlie Glickman, who, to give you a little context in case you don't already have this. We, we worked at Good Vibrations together when I was in my 20s.
[00:01:58] Charna Cassell: So like, oh, you know, 20 years ago. Right? Over 20 years ago he was the head of education, of educational programs, and we received extensive training when we were working there. And then he remained a resource for me after I left Good Vibrations, I might be teaching a class on, you know, sexual identity, gender, something like that, and I would reach out to him and talk curriculum. And so I have a lot of respect for Charlie and I can't remember. Oh, maybe I'd reached out to him to find out about different suggestions for guests. And he told me about what occurred around being canceled.
[00:02:42] Mischa Byruck: Mm hmm.
[00:02:43] Charna Cassell: And and so that's the context with which he mentioned your name, that you're on his team and you're assisting him in rebuilding and being accountable for his impact.
[00:02:58] Mischa Byruck: Hmm. Yeah, it's so special because as you can imagine, so few of my clients want me to talk about them. I
[00:03:05] Charna Cassell: Mmm. Mm hmm.
[00:03:07] Mischa Byruck: consent. Charlie is really literally maybe one out of one or two people, maybe three who have given me their consent to like talk about this work. And I, and I, and I still don't actually.
[00:03:20] Mischa Byruck: Feel comfortable, like talking about the content of the work, but even just revealing that they are my client,
[00:03:25] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:03:26] Charna Cassell: Is huge.
[00:03:27] Mischa Byruck: the permission is really huge. And yeah, so, so the, the relationship that I have with Charlie is that I wasn't part of the community justice process that he went, went through for two or three years.
[00:03:39] Mischa Byruck: I was brought on as like, after that process had concluded in order to support him to do the work of actually saying like the summary, here's what I did. And you can find that in his separate medium account, like a letter to my communities, like, here's what I did. Here's how I grew. Here's how I've changed.
[00:03:59] Mischa Byruck: Like, here's how I've taken accountability and. You know, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm going to be out there again on my, on my, my, this is, I'm now going to lead my life which is such a special and, and, and delicate, such a powerful thing to do, right? Like, you know, to, to say like, okay, like I've, I've taken accountability where I could, I've really, really looked.
[00:04:24] Mischa Byruck: Here's what I've seen, and now I'm gonna lead my life. I'm gonna go out there and do my thing. And I'm also part of his ongoing accountability team. So me, along with Alyssa Morin and Dr. Hazel Grace Yates and that's not private. That's something that the three of us have all agreed, like we're on his website, you know, that's not, this is not private.
[00:04:44] Mischa Byruck: We're his ongoing accountability team, which means that, like, if you have a problem with Charlie you can report it to us via his own website. And you can let us know, Hey, I don't think this guy should be teaching, or hey, I don't think this, this person is safe, or hey, this person harmed me in some way.
[00:04:59] Mischa Byruck: And yeah, in the world of like, in the freewheeling world of like coaching, and where there's really, there's almost no government regulation, and I think it's really important that we, that we, that we create systems to hold ourselves accountable. And I think what Charlie's created is really beautiful.
[00:05:17] Mischa Byruck: I also perform a similar function for various other teachers, and I have the same system for myself,
[00:05:23] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:05:24] Charna Cassell: hmm.
[00:05:24] Mischa Byruck: preventative practice. You can report me, if you're, if you've got a problem with me, you can report me to Angel Adeyoha, who runs Folsom Street Fair, and to Marsha Budzinski, the author of Creating Consent Culture, via my website.
[00:05:37] Mischa Byruck: Right? Anyway, I just, I just love, love it when people create proactive accountability systems. Like, I could talk about just proactive accountability systems this whole time,
[00:05:46] Charna Cassell: Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And that's really, I, I really do want to talk about that. There's so many directions we could go, but this is the piece that, and I love how, how you really lit up when when we were, we started talking about that. And. Because I, I feel like even if someone may have the, on a conceptual level, that they want that, they want to be accountable, they may not know what that can look like.
[00:06:10] Charna Cassell: And I also even think, I'd like to break it down even into smaller chunks, like, what is accountability to you? How do you know, how, you know, like,
[00:06:19] Charna Cassell: I
[00:06:19] Mischa Byruck: such a big topic.
[00:06:20] Charna Cassell: I know there's so I mean there's so many we we basically because I know that you you focus a lot around around consent as well and that's been a subject that's
[00:06:29] Mischa Byruck: I guess I do, like, I have to call myself a cassette educator because that's like the language that's used,
[00:06:34] Charna Cassell: yeah.
[00:06:37] Mischa Byruck: but like, I actually... I really, I don't like, I don't actually usually even like that framing because talking about consent education is setting, first of all, it's a really low bar. Second of all, it creates the very false conception that consent violations are the only form of sexual harm that exists or that we should be aware of, which is not true.
[00:06:57] Mischa Byruck: Consent violations are relatively like. small form of the interpersonal harm that we do to each other, and the hurt that we cause each other, and many of which is, much of which is preventable. And organizations that just focus on consent tend to miss things like abusive power, Things like emotional harm that isn't, you know, things like even, even structural or systemic abuse, none of which is really a consent violation.
[00:07:24] Mischa Byruck: And yeah, a lot of, a lot of modern feminist theorists like have like Jessica Valenti or Amiya Sreenivasan have talked about, like, we can't, have, have talked about the importance of going beyond consent, which is why The course that I run with Bonobo Network, the Bay Area's largest sex positive organization, it is called Beyond Consent.
[00:07:44] Charna Cassell: Right, right.
[00:07:45] Mischa Byruck: Bonobo Network has been around for a lot longer than I have. And they've been setting, I think, some really important standards for not just, like, what it looks like to create a consent culture or a, I think, kind of, what I would call a harm prevention Pleasure focused, power aware culture.
[00:08:06] Mischa Byruck: I know it's more of a mouthful than just creating consent culture, but like, consent is such a low bar that I really think we're doing ourselves a disservice by focusing on it so much. And Bonobo Network is really aligned with that. Misha Bonaventura and William Winters have created what is now, like, kind of in the rarefied little world of organizations that are dedicated to creating sex positive spaces safely.
[00:08:27] Mischa Byruck: Basically the gold standard for, for, for for how to hold those spaces. And it's not just a set of like procedures or policies. It's really a way of organizing community and a way of being with accountability. And yeah, you can check them out at bonobonetwork. com. Com. I do not work for them.
[00:08:48] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:08:49] Mischa Byruck: I'm partnered with them, but I don't get any money for, you know what I mean?
[00:08:51] Charna Cassell: Right. You're not advertising them.
[00:08:53] Mischa Byruck: No, I'm not like, but like, definitely like thought leaders and due respect and I just don't want to claim any credit there.
[00:09:00] Charna Cassell: Right, right. So I'd asked how would you even define what accountability is
[00:09:04] Mischa Byruck: I wanna hear how you define
[00:09:05] Mischa Byruck: accountability
[00:09:07] Charna Cassell: how, you did support Charlie in creating more accountability, like, so there's the ongoing, there's that initial phase of confronting harm that's done, and then there's also the continued support.
[00:09:23] Mischa Byruck: So much. Oh my gosh. Yes, and I will happily answer this, and I also want this to be a conversation, so I'm curious about, I'm curious, and you're, I'm always actually curious about this with therapists, of like how, if you can see that a client really needs to be held accountable, or do accountability work, like do you, do you, can you, do you have the consent to like poke and prod and push them to be like, actually, let's not talk about your childhood or how bad you feel, let's talk about how you can take accountability.
[00:09:49] Mischa Byruck: Anyway, I have questions about that. With almost all therapists, I'm curious about that. And whether or not that's even allowed or okay or anyway.
[00:09:57] Charna Cassell: Yeah, you know, I mean, I can't,
[00:09:59] Mischa Byruck: you speak to that before I do? Like,
[00:10:01] Charna Cassell: what'd you say?
[00:10:02] Mischa Byruck: can you speak to that before I answer the question?
[00:10:04] Charna Cassell: Yeah, you know, it's a, it's kind of going to be a long rambling answer. So I was a coach. I was a somatic coach before becoming a psychotherapist. So I do not claim to speak for all therapists. I, my approach, my approach is, is, is, is unconventional, but I, I think that I'm able to, because I care about the people that I work with, even if I've worked with somebody who's caused harm, I still really deeply care about them.
[00:10:31] Charna Cassell: And because I know what they, what they also care about, right, I can hold the bigger picture of the things in their life and how the trajectory that they're wanting to move towards. And so I use that as a framework for gently guiding them in a particular way. I mean, there are certain things like I'm not going to tell someone you have to stop drinking, right, or you have to stop having sex with that person every time you get, you know, you get, despite the fact that you get a yeast infection or a, you know, bladder infection every time you and your body's communicating something, but I will provide.
[00:11:09] Charna Cassell: I will work with the part that might be experiencing harm or causing harm and I will make distinctions so that it's not all of who someone is. They're not reduced to the thing that's harming themselves or the thing that's harming another, right? So it's like getting into the intricacies of that so that they can, they can step out of shame enough.
[00:11:31] Charna Cassell: That they can face what is occurring.
[00:11:36] Mischa Byruck: Mm.
[00:11:36] Charna Cassell: I mean, I could, this is a subject we could just talk for hours on because I would say accountability is my, is one of my love languages.
[00:11:44] Mischa Byruck: Me too.
[00:11:45] Charna Cassell: Yeah, and what I've seen over time is that people's relationship to accountability and how they define accountability or understand it, when I use that word it means so many different things to different people.
[00:11:57] Charna Cassell: So that's where I'm really, because one person it's like, they immediately get on the defense when you say the word accountable.
[00:12:04] Mischa Byruck: Yep, I've seen that too. Lots of times, sure.
[00:12:07] Charna Cassell: And, and so I think language is, especially like English language is so imperfect and as you were saying with consent, reductionistic, right? It's like there's so much, it's a big umbrella, there's all these things that fall under that. And so yeah, so we can keep talking about accountability, but I'm, I'm really curious, like what's, given this is your, it's your, basically your line of business, right?
[00:12:29] Charna Cassell: That's what you, you breathe. Hmm.
[00:12:32] Mischa Byruck: is. It is. And I think accountability is such a big word that I tend to think of it in the same way that I think about God. Like, I think of accountability as having many, many definitions and having all of them be true based on the context and having that be okay.
[00:12:49] Charna Cassell: And I, I want to say something about that. That's, it's so interesting that you've used that parallel and I've never heard somebody say that, but when I was 17 and I was on this retreat that was kind of in the vein of vision quest that I did through my high school. There was an elder I was speaking to and I was really conflicted and confused about what spirituality was.
[00:13:15] Charna Cassell: And I, you know, my mom was Jewish. I wasn't raised with religion and I saw people not being accountable. And it was so painful for me. And the amount of hypocrisy.
[00:13:28] Mischa Byruck: In what way?
[00:13:30] Charna Cassell: In what way were they, was it painful or were they not
[00:13:33] Mischa Byruck: Yeah, no, in what way were you seeing people not be accountable? I'd love to hear what
[00:13:36] Charna Cassell: Oh, oh, well, I was raised around drug addicts and there was, there was every kind of abuse occurring and I wasn't being protected. People identifying as Buddhists but then not seeing any practices that coincided with that. And so I really resisted the concept of spirituality at that age. And then this elder said to me, well, what if you were to think about it like this?
[00:14:05] Charna Cassell: And this is the definition that I've carried forward into my life, which is you know, what if you, you know, being accountable for how your spirit impacts others and how their, their spirit impacts you. It was, and just that to me was my introduction to what accountability could be. Thank you. And I was like, oh yeah, that I can get behind.
[00:14:25] Mischa Byruck: Hmm.
[00:14:25] Mischa Byruck: I love that so much. It's such an elegant definition. I've also, I've also just heard so many different wonderful definitions of this word. I think accountability is essentially a lifelong spiritual practice. Of aligning our words with our actions for people in the public eye, I think a lot of being accountable is recognizing the reputation that you get at the projections that people will put on you, the expectations that they'll put on you and that you are taking on by being in a public eye or a public figure or a leader or a teacher and not just aligning your actions with what you think is okay, but aligning your actions with what you.
[00:15:02] Mischa Byruck: What you should at least be aware of is the image that you're putting out into the world. If you're saying, hey everybody, I'm a Buddhist, but you're not engaging in any Buddhist practice, you might be out of integrity being accountable to everything you're saying in the world.
[00:15:17] Mischa Byruck: So, and I say this as someone who speaks a lot, who like wants to put words in, like who feels that my like, my mission in life is to put words out.
[00:15:25] Mischa Byruck: And every time I speak, and every time I utter a single sentence, I'm... Saying something that my actions have to then match and a big part of my own accountability practice is, is, is, is, is constantly reflecting on not just my actions matching my values, but my actions matching my projected image.
[00:15:46] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yes. Yes. And this piece, the piece about congruence, right, congruence between words and actions. As is a really important part of what my semantics training was, and it's what I help people do right. It's like even when you're sitting with someone and you're having a conversation and they share a story that's devastating and heartbreaking, but they're laughing.
[00:16:11] Charna Cassell: Right, there's that moment of incongruence so being able to actually be present and track that in others as well as yourself, so that you, you know, it's it's aka attunement. If you're not attuning to others and paying attention, then you're more likely to cause more harm.
[00:16:28] Mischa Byruck: Generally speaking, that's, that's been my experience.
[00:16:30] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.
[00:16:32] Mischa Byruck: I also, I also really, I think it's important for me at least to mention that when I think about accountability, I think about. integrity. And a lot of what I think about is exactly like what you were saying is connecting my understanding of my impact in the world with the standards of behavior that I want to hold myself.
[00:16:56] Mischa Byruck: And when I teach, a lot of what I teach is, is skillful repair practice, just such a beautiful and very context heavy, context specific art. I teach a lot about the importance of what, what my teacher, the Reverend Bridge Feltus, who's based in LA and is amazing amazing teacher, look her up calls restoring integrity.
[00:17:18] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:17:20] Mischa Byruck: And she's given me her blessing to kind of share this, this, this learning. But when you restore integrity, it's when you see that you're out of integrity and that you have to get back into integrity. And a lot of times that I like to say that accountability demands a witness that even if you haven't done harm to anybody, even if you've just fallen off your diet, it's actually really helpful to be witnessed and I'm going to go back onto my diet.
[00:17:44] Mischa Byruck: This wasn't about like Me harming you and apologizing, like, or even if it's like it might have affected you, but you don't really care. It's like, I was five minutes late to our meeting, right? Let me restore integrity for that. And then there's steps to do that, that I'll follow and that I've made into a practice.
[00:17:59] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:18:00] Mischa Byruck: Even if you're like, yeah, I'm cool with it, like, you're fine, like, what I'm asking of you when I restore integrity is, would you be willing to witness me restore integrity and allow me to take advantage of your presence and your witnessing and your mirroring to help me return to the path that it's important for me to be on?
[00:18:21] Charna Cassell: Right. Right. So with self, not always with other. And
[00:18:26] Mischa Byruck: Yeah.
[00:18:27] Charna Cassell: that's a really important distinction.
[00:18:29] Mischa Byruck: And, and, and when, when it comes to interpersonal harm, I think that that's, that's also still really relevant. You know, a lot of what we do with my, what I do with my clients is dig into where they were out of integrity with their own values, not just. Where my act, I was misunderstood and I recognized that they were hurt.
[00:18:51] Mischa Byruck: No. Where was I out of integrity with my own values? Where is, if it's important to me to be trauma informed, if I've put that out there, where was I not acting in a trauma informed way? If it's important to me to be compassionate with my lover, where was I not being compassionate with my lover?
[00:19:07] Charna Cassell: hmm.
[00:19:08] Mischa Byruck: Owning that tends to be a lot more personal, a lot more difficult, requires a lot more introspection.
[00:19:13] Mischa Byruck: than getting to a place after, after harm or conflict, which is of, of just being able to say, I see it from your point of view,
[00:19:22] Charna Cassell: Right.
[00:19:23] Mischa Byruck: right. It's a different,
[00:19:25] Charna Cassell: it is very different. It's very different. And I, you know, it, it, it makes me really curious about who are the people that find you and, you know, because there's probably a much smaller pool of people that are self driven, I would imagine, compared to the need that's out there around the amount of harm and initial defense.
[00:19:50] Charna Cassell: But then I know that Charlie was also initially quite Defensive and he came around to being able to see himself in such a holistic way.
[00:20:00] Mischa Byruck: I think the people who work with me tend to be visionaries there's something, there's something really profound about someone seeing that they could use professional support. Around accountability and integrity practice. And they, right, they have to pay me money, like a good amount. And, yeah, you kind of have to be willing to look at yourself in a really, in a, like, you really have to be willing to go deep under yourself and really go, be uncomfortable, be willing to undergo a transformational process in order to, you know, do real accountability work, and I think anybody who works in that field will agree.
[00:20:43] Mischa Byruck: That you can't be, you know, and I've made the mistake, I'll just own, like I've made the mistake of working with friends informally who were overly resistant, like they weren't ready, you know, or my medicine wasn't right and they, and I didn't use all the, all the tools at my disposal that I use in my professional practice with my friends to, and, and it's tended to maybe not be as much of a service to them and sometimes been a disservice to them.
[00:21:08] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:21:09] Mischa Byruck: really need to be at a place where you can, like, overcome your own shame reactions, your own defensiveness, and I can support with all that, to support you to, like, get deeper into a relationship with accountability and integrity that will allow you to transcend cancellation concerns, that will allow you to, to, to walk a light, walk a path of, of deep integrity moving forward and moving out.
[00:21:31] Mischa Byruck: You know, so it's so important to me that like I'm values aligned with my clients, my clients tend to be like deeply, wonderfully loving, charismatic men. They're, they're, you know, many of them are leaders who didn't learn the skills of power awareness. And mostly that, you know, like power awareness is a skill.
[00:21:49] Mischa Byruck: It takes a lot of skill to, to, to train our brains, to orient, to like how might we be being perceived by people in a down power role.
[00:21:58] Charna Cassell: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:21:59] Mischa Byruck: Especially if we're like, I don't know, cisgender, and able bodied, and white, and American, and like, men. You know, like, there's a lot of like, just unseen power dynamics that we have to train ourselves to be aware of that are not obvious.
[00:22:14] Mischa Byruck: And it's a fucking skill, and it's hard. It's a skill.
[00:22:18] Charna Cassell: Right.
[00:22:19] Mischa Byruck: to, to, to, to orient towards that, and... Mitigate your own power, and be aware of it, and mitigate your own actions, and diffuse power in certain contexts, or name power dynamics in certain contexts, be aware of how you might be landing in certain contexts, discipline yourself in specific contexts, apply boundaries to yourself when no one is forcing you to,
[00:22:41] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:22:42] Mischa Byruck: you know, maybe say no to certain opportunities for intimacy or sexuality or for power when they're offered. In a world, That will punish you for being accountable and reward you for taking everything that you can.
[00:22:58] Charna Cassell: Right, right. That's, that's the system that everything is based in here and, and and so given that and given that there's that training that you know you're providing, how do you know if someone comes to you, how do you know or you can see someone I mean it's like, what's the starting point, how, when, how can you tell if someone is ready, like they may perceive that they're ready but you may see something else like what are you looking for going this person is actually Coachable and has the capacity to be accountable and live in integrity in a way that they perceive that they are or want to be.
[00:23:36] Mischa Byruck: Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm looking for is a sincere desire to to make a contribution in the world it doesn't always start with having a checkbox of like, is this person adequately shamed already? Like, that's not, like, I, I don't truck in shame. I hate, don't like the term positive shame or some, like,
[00:23:59] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:24:00] Mischa Byruck: shame has no place in my practice at all.
[00:24:02] Mischa Byruck:
[00:24:02] Mischa Byruck: And a lot of what I do supports clients to like hold themselves in dignity. I don't think it's actually really possible to be accountable without a whole lot of dignity. Like it's not, I don't trust the apology of someone who hates themselves. You know, I don't, I don't trust it. I don't think energetically it's coming from a very clean place.
[00:24:20] Mischa Byruck: There's a lesson in anti racism about this. Like, you can't trust white guilt. You know, it's not a trustworthy stance if, if a white person's like, I just feel like a guilty, like, what, what should I do, black person? Like, please tell me, like, that's not a trustworthy place to be coming from. , but those are all stages that everybody goes through. It's important for me to accept people like where they're at. Like if they have a desire to make a contribution in the world, my job is oftentimes to connect them being an integrity with the contribution that they're here to make.
[00:24:51] Mischa Byruck: Most people aren't accountability and integrity geeks like me, you know what I mean? Like most people don't get off on this stuff. Most people are just trying to live their life and what, when they're being asked to be. Accountable for harm. it's a distraction from the life that they're here to lead.
[00:25:04] Mischa Byruck: And fear that emerges, especially in this cancel culture world is I will never be able to make my contribution. If the purpose of my life, the source of my dignity is the contribution that I'm here to make. As a leader, as a business leader, as a teacher, as a organizer of others, you know, and everybody I work with is a leader in some way, right?
[00:25:25] Mischa Byruck: Like, genuinely,
[00:25:28] Charna Cassell: hmm.
[00:25:29] Mischa Byruck: and they're, they're here to make that contribution. And so I say, like, if you can see the connection between the contribution you're here to make and walking a deeper path of integrity, I can support you on that path.
[00:25:42] Charna Cassell: And would you encourage like, you know, you said that you work with a lot of visionaries that they set these structures up, you know, as,
[00:25:50] Mischa Byruck: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:25:51] Charna Cassell: care, right? Mm hmm.
[00:25:53] Mischa Byruck: I work as much as I can. I work with people preventatively. I work with people who are emerging leaders. I get lots and lots of guidance and support for myself because I'm an emerging leader, but I work with a lot of people who like have just taken on a leadership role in an organization, for instance or someone who's you're right.
[00:26:10] Mischa Byruck: Who are like, Oh, wow. I have a lot of new power, you know, like, let me work with a coach in order to make sure that I'm, I'm holding this power in integrity. Like, yes, very, very good. Especially if, you know, as in, as often the case, no, like you've, you, you, you have not received teaching and certainly not right, what it looks like to hold power in deep integrity, especially around sexual access.
[00:26:41] Mischa Byruck: And I can't emphasize this enough, like, so often it's just kind of like this unspoken thing of like, the more power I get, the more access to sexuality I'll get, and, and that is good and normal in the way it works. Is it resonating
[00:26:54] Charna Cassell: I mean, it's such a it's such a huge topic. And last last season, I actually did have William on in a conversation, a group conversation about one taste. And I'm, I'm very, I'm very fascinated by, by cults and, and leaders who
[00:27:17] Charna Cassell: like what, what creates sociopathy, you know, and like what creates abuse of power and is it does one, you know, is there already that tendency. Or does getting that much power create the tendency to abuse? Is it, is it the access, like sometimes with, especially with spiritual gurus and healers, right? Is it other beings that are working through them?
[00:27:42] Charna Cassell: I mean, I sit with this, I'm very curious about this question because I've seen so many people that I respect or people that other people respect abuse their power when they could be doing so much healing. And it makes, it has made me cautious to be like, I was like, I never want to cause that kind of harm.
[00:28:01] Charna Cassell: Like if you automatically step into a leadership role, are you going to be turned into someone who abuses their power? So that's why I love this conversation because I think preventative care is so great. Right. It's like Chinese medicine for your, for your accountability and integrity.
[00:28:19] Mischa Byruck: I love that you mentioned Chinese medicine because I think that developing deep and ongoing and constantly evolving accountability and integrity practices is the critical flip side of the coin of power acquisition. The more power you acquire in life, the more important it is to walk the path of integrity.
[00:28:41] Mischa Byruck: And, and a lot of what walking the path of integrity tends to look like is. As more powerful you get like mitigating your own power, like getting advisors, getting supervisors, like check, like finding ways to check yourself and also say that there are no standardized ways that I would recommend to do this.
[00:28:56] Mischa Byruck: I think a lot of what it looks like to develop systems for your for yourself is to develop systems for yourself is to find ways that this works for you to know your own temptations and to be like, yes, like. It's tempting for me as a workshop leader to always flirt with the woman that I'm the most attracted to right after the class.
[00:29:16] Mischa Byruck: What am I going to do in my practice to not be that guy?
[00:29:21] Charna Cassell: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:29:22] Mischa Byruck: Because I'm aware of the, what the impact of that kind of behavior Right on the rest of the class and the the diminishment of trust that that will make in me as a teacher be like, oh, I see, he's just doing this to get laid, you know, like, and how, how, if my mission in life is to be a teacher, then like, how do I maintain the integrity of the teaching environment?
[00:29:43] Mischa Byruck: And again, no, this is requires like radical self knowledge, you know,
[00:29:47] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:29:48] Mischa Byruck: and, and sacrifice bless, like, I'll give you a concrete example. I know a spiritual leader in the Bay Area. Who assumed a leadership position in a synagogue and right, so he's a rabbi. He's also divorced father, you know, but he's like, oh, the sec, you know, now that, you know, I, I might go to sex parties, but I never play.
[00:30:08] Mischa Byruck: I don't, you know, that's a sacrifice that was important for me to make because it's not about me, like even worrying necessarily that I'm going to abuse my power. It's the perception of others. Like, people might see me socially, and that's just like, it's, it's too fraught in terms of perception. So, like, he's really power aware of it.
[00:30:28] Mischa Byruck: He's also, God bless him, he's also someone who, the second he assumed that role, immediately got the organization that he's working for to pay for an ethics advisor for him to meet with every other week. Right? These are beautiful examples of someone knowing themselves.
[00:30:43] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:30:44] Mischa Byruck: Right? Enough to set up systems to mitigate their own power, to restrict themselves because of negative perceptions that might, might spring up.
[00:30:53] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:30:54] Mischa Byruck: Um, and to prioritize the thing that they're there to do. To say, it's more important for me to be an effective spiritual leader than it is for me to have free ranging access
[00:31:07] Mischa Byruck: to sexual, uh,
[00:31:08] Mischa Byruck: opportunity. That like restricting myself is good and right and okay. Like, I don't, you know what I mean?
[00:31:15] Charna Cassell: hmm. I completely know what you mean. And
[00:31:17] Mischa Byruck: No one forced him to do that either.
[00:31:18] Mischa Byruck: No one was like, you needed, right. But like, I, I think it's beautiful to welcome that in when you're, when the people around you are saying, you know what, Misha, like, maybe you should, you know, do this or maybe, you know, you know, like, can you figure out something that's, that, that might be useful for you, given Given this, you know, I, I, I, I keep myself very, very strict on the straight and narrow in terms, in a lot of, in a lot of how I act in the world because my mission in life is more important than just pure hedonism.
[00:31:46] Mischa Byruck: And I, I, I don't think that we have a right to pure hedonistic opportunity if we wanna be leaders. I don't think that's. And I think we should accept that. But I also want to talk about your, your earlier question about like what leads to power abuse. And I,
[00:32:00] Charna Cassell: oh, oh, yeah, I mean, there's so many. There's so many threads. Holy cow. Yeah, I think that one is so important, and it actually leads to a different question, which I like to ask folks, which is, what is sexual freedom to you?
[00:32:15] Mischa Byruck: well, I think sexual liberation is the, is, is, is a beautiful, it's a beautiful, sexual liberation is very, very beautiful. And the flip side to sexual liberation. That's very convenient for people who are naturally very empowered and dominant to ignore. Very convenient for us to ignore. The flip side to sexual liberation is accountability.
[00:32:38] Mischa Byruck: Huh. really can't have sexual liberation without accountability and responsibility.
[00:32:44] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:32:44] Mischa Byruck: You know? And I push back against the idea that sexual liberation without accountability and responsibility is a good unto itself. No, I don't think unabashed reckless hedonism is the answer. I think pleasure Like, centering a world around unabashed hedonism makes sense as a revolt against Puritan American sexual repression and patriarchal ethics.
[00:33:14] Mischa Byruck: However, I think the world we're trying to create, like, elevates pleasure. Without centering hedonism and, and elevates harm reduction without becoming automatically punitive or, or Puritan, we, we, we, you know, the world that I want to create is, is about nuance. It's not about like, just, it's like a, like a free for all.
[00:33:40] Mischa Byruck: Like, I really don't think that that's That's how the world works. I don't think it's a trauma informed perspective. I don't think that that takes into account, like, how actual humans are, you know. A good example, and I, as you can tell, like, I'm a very loud person, right? Like, I'm, I'm loud. I'm unabashed. I don't hold a lot of trauma in my body.
[00:33:55] Mischa Byruck: I was raised with a lot of love and privilege. When I walk into the world and I shine my light and I, like, share my, one of my supervisors said this very elegantly, and it's, it's something that I stick with and it's helpful for me to repeat. When I let my guard down, others tend to have to put theirs up.
[00:34:15] Charna Cassell: Mm.
[00:34:25] Mischa Byruck: And a lot of the clients that I work with are that kind of person, people who want the opportunity to let their guard down, to have sexual freedom, to be their big unabashed selves. And in our world, that's the kind of thing that tends to make others... We might not have that level of freedom that they have in their body.
[00:34:45] Mischa Byruck: Put their guard up.
[00:34:46] Charna Cassell: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
[00:34:50] Mischa Byruck: And so I don't, I don't, I think sexual liberation in practice has meant a free for all for already empowered men. And I think that we can do better.
[00:35:01] Charna Cassell: I love that. Yeah. You know, a topic that I find myself doing a lot of education around in my sessions with couples and with individual men is attunement. And I think that that's what you're also speaking to.
[00:35:20] Mischa Byruck: Please, tell me more.
[00:35:22] Charna Cassell: Well, just in terms of it's a beautiful thing to be able to be fully in the present moment, to be embodied, to be fully expressed.
[00:35:32] Charna Cassell: and, and then it's a tricky thing. How do you, how do you get to be fully in the present moment, but also aware of your impact and how do you attune to and dial? Like just, you know, it doesn't have to mean like shut it down, but tune in to those around you.
[00:35:51] Charna Cassell: Especially, I mean, again and again, so much of what happens with harm, and I think for, I think so much harm could be reduced if attunement was taught in high schools.
[00:36:03] Mischa Byruck: Mm
[00:36:04] Charna Cassell: To, you know, all, all beings. But boys in particular. And
[00:36:09] Charna Cassell: because I think Right, you know, when you're when you're overwhelmed by internal sensation and it could just be excitement and enthusiasm like most of us have sat next to a table full of drunk women who are like, you know, it's like you're like, Oh my God, that's intense.
[00:36:24] Charna Cassell: Because you might be in a different space. And so you don't want to, you don't want people to be to be reduced, have their joy reduced, you know, and shut down and yet,
[00:36:38] Mischa Byruck: such a delicate balance,
[00:36:40] Charna Cassell: yes, yes. And so. You know, attunement is, is how does someone, when I picture, I'm picturing a teenage boy right now, it's like how do you be with all this overwhelming these hormones and these sensations and these desires and actually see the other being in front of you and notice they're not holding their breath, their shoulders are around their ears, their eyes You know, wide open and their bodies frozen and then make a choice in that moment that goes beyond maybe they're saying, Yeah, sure, it's fine.
[00:37:13] Charna Cassell: Let's do it. But their body says something entirely different.
[00:37:19] Mischa Byruck: yeah, 100%. And I think if you come from a more marginalized place, talking about sexual liberation tends to evoke Like empowerment and talking about attunement tends to evoke the repression that you're already feeling. So like, don't, like, like I, I've talked to a lot of people where they, where where when I use some words, they hear me trying to repress them,
[00:37:41] Mischa Byruck: you know?
[00:37:41] Mischa Byruck: And if, and if you come from an opposite place, if you tend to feel a lot more empowered, then right, then there's, there's, there's almost the opposite experience. You, you know, there's sexual liberation is. Oh, finally, I've found a place where I get to let my big freak flag fry, I get to peacock, I get to dance big, I get to fuck big, I get to be my full and unabashed self, finally.
[00:38:07] Mischa Byruck: Because I have been trying, I have been tamping down my fire for all these weak people around me. My whole life. And I want the chance to live, and I want to be around people who, you know, who, who appreciate me for my big, brash, et cetera. You know, oh, oh, it's so tough. It's so tough to talk about these things, knowing that people come from such a, the audience that might hear or the people that might listen to this come from such a spectrum
[00:38:38] Mischa Byruck: of, of, experiences and that the, every word I say is going to land radically differently.
[00:38:44] Mischa Byruck: For people with different life experiences. It's almost impossible to communicate.
[00:38:48] Charna Cassell: Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting when I, you, you asked me offline about the, about how the podcast was going or what my experience was and how, and I can't remember exactly the question, but when I first started recording Because I'm used to working individually or even if I'm in a group if I was teaching a group I can track everyone's facial expressions of their bodies and I can stop and address what I'm seeing when you're speaking into to an audience.
[00:39:19] Charna Cassell: That you can't see and you don't know how they're receiving it and how, and if it's causing harm, because I do care so much about that. I'm so, it would, it would it would stop me. I couldn't, it was hard for me to start talking and free flow because I wanted to address everybody's needs. You know, and you can't do that and you have to, if you're going to lead, if you're, you have to recognize that there are going to be times where you, you don't speak to everybody.
[00:39:47] Charna Cassell: Okay. Right, you, you, you can't meet everyone where they're at all the time. You can course correct, and I really appreciate and would like to get more into what you're saying about repair, because that's what we, we can learn how to repair, you know, anyways, I'll pause there.
[00:40:03] Mischa Byruck: No, I just, I love that. I love, and I thank you for weaving that in about your experiences, speaking out into the, into the ether about, and I'll just, I'll just name that, like, it's such a sacred responsibility to be a teacher in general. And I've seen firsthand that the way that the way that people react to me, if they're disappointed in me is. Like, when people are disappointed in their tea in a teacher, it feels like betrayal.
[00:40:40] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:40:43] Mischa Byruck: And when people are disappointed in someone who's holding them at their most vulnerable, It could feel like a deep, deep betrayal. So it's one thing to feel like, ah, like my math teacher, like didn't really, you know, didn't really live up to what I perceive to be a standards. But when you're talking about someone who's like teaching about the most vulnerable thing there is, like.
[00:41:07] Mischa Byruck: Daddy kink, which is something I teach, or sexuality in general. Like, the level of disappointment and betrayal if I fall down in any way is so profound. And I like, I humbly submit myself as someone who can hold that. And, and I'm, I'm doing my very best in, in this life to be, to be holding it really with like a lot of trepidation and a lot of like.
[00:41:31] Mischa Byruck: Checking myself again and again and again, because there are places where I've misstepped or said the wrong thing in a class that's like, turned everybody off or turned some people off and there are places where, like, I've, I've stepped out of my integrity you know, as a leader, multiple places. And, I mean, oof, yeah, it's, it's a constant tension. And I think one of the biggest places of growth for my clients is, is the moment where they realize just how much power. They hold
[00:42:12] Charna Cassell: Mm
[00:42:13] Mischa Byruck: all the power. They don't want it. They didn't ask for it. Even they didn't consciously say like, oh, I'm gonna be a Sexological body worker and I'm gonna help hold power or like I'm gonna you know Be a party organizer.
[00:42:27] Mischa Byruck: I'm gonna organize this party and and I you know, it's about my will to power
[00:42:31] Charna Cassell: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:42:32] Mischa Byruck: party for their friends, you know and Oh, like even though I wasn't a boss. I'm not Donald Trump. I'm not Elon Musk. I'm not Jeff Bezos I'm not a millionaire, but I hold power. And by power, I mean I have the ability to harm through a single word.
[00:42:53] Mischa Byruck: I have the ability to radically, negatively impact the people in my sphere of orbit, you know? Man, I can't. And the truth is, when most people hear me talk about this stuff, they're like, oh god, how fucking heavy.
[00:43:12] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:43:13] Mischa Byruck: To be constantly thinking about power all the time, like what, you know, like, ugh, like what a burden. And I get that, frankly. a real skill to kind of like, live a life of joy and also be constantly thinking about power dynamics everywhere you go.
[00:43:27] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm.
[00:43:28] Mischa Byruck: It's kind of a hassle at first. I think it's really important though. I really
[00:43:32] Mischa Byruck: do.
[00:43:33] Charna Cassell: what's interesting there is that it's It's a privilege to choose that, versus, you know what I mean? I mean, there's a lot of the population that's always dealing with the impact of that and the reality of that, and they don't get the choice, and so it's such a funny, one of the things that Charlie said that I really appreciated,
[00:43:55] Mischa Byruck: Thank you for saying,
[00:43:56] Charna Cassell: Yeah,
[00:43:57] Mischa Byruck: Thank you for saying that.
[00:43:58] Charna Cassell: no, but it's true.
[00:43:59] Charna Cassell: It's totally true. You know,
[00:44:01] Mischa Byruck: Ugh, you're so right. You're just so right, right? Ugh. My white, my white dude ness is showing through.
[00:44:11] Charna Cassell: And I mean, and this is the thing is I, I know white men and women that do gender equity training to, you know, all cognitive bias training, all this stuff. And it just because you're doing excellent work in the world doesn't mean you also have blind spots. And we all do. And, and so that's why I love going.
[00:44:30] Charna Cassell: Oh, so I. Yes, I will do my best to be conscious, and I want, I'm choosing a conscious path outside of spiritual practice, but just through the way I live and interact with all beings. And. I still recognize I won't catch everything because we know that we, whatever we're looking for is what we see, right?
[00:44:57] Mischa Byruck: Yeah, yeah. And you gotta, if you're not inherently going to see those dynamics training yourself to see them as a real skill takes real practice. You know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's an ongoing practice to be constantly, you know, I've also, I also have recently Learned ways to refute the argument that like, oh, I should be power aware in my professional life or when I'm actually in leadership positions at the head of the room or, you know, on stage, but when I'm around, like, my intimates, like, I don't need to be aware of power, you know, like, or when I'm like at my social in my social life, I shouldn't necessarily need to be aware of power and Yeah.
[00:45:38] Mischa Byruck: You know, one of my advisors was like, Oh, what a perfect white supremacist conceit, Misha. I was like,
[00:45:47] Mischa Byruck: aww. How delightfully convenient to like have places where you don't have to, you know, you don't have to worry about that stuff anymore, right? Like I was like, oh,
[00:45:54] Charna Cassell: you're like, I get to, I get to, you know, like women come home and take their bras off and it's like, you know, like, or like take your sweater off, you know? And instead it's like, yeah, I get to take a break from all this stuff that most people have to walk around and continue to
[00:46:10] Mischa Byruck: around.
[00:46:10] Charna Cassell: navigate.
[00:46:11] Mischa Byruck: And, and. Yeah, yeah, no, no, we, when I say lifelong practice, I mean, incorporating into the fiber of your being, incorporating accountability, integrity, and just being, and then learning to live with the discomfort of your own self critique, without going into shame, being willing to be radically vulnerable in an attuned way with the people around you, knowing that not every repair or power awareness conversation will ever look the same, that it's about it.
[00:46:43] Mischa Byruck: The context, sometimes it makes sense to name Power Dynamics, and sometimes it's really kind of overkill and too much. When to shut up, when to participate, when to lead, when to stand back, and it's never obvious, and it's never one kind of cookie cutter answer, and it's never one size fits all, and I can offer frameworks, but not formulas, and.
[00:47:09] Charna Cassell: And so along those lines, when someone doesn't have the, the financial resources to seek you out, to have you on retainer or as their coach, right?
[00:47:23] Mischa Byruck: Yeah. Yeah. Like, what, what, what does one do?
[00:47:26] Charna Cassell: yeah.
[00:47:27] Mischa Byruck: Well, I, I offer my course free. I mean, I charge 700, but it's free if you can't afford it. You know, it's no one turned away for lack of funds, you know, so, you know, like, please, if you want to learn this stuff, like, feel free to take my course, like, I, I, I, I try to charge people with a lot of money, a lot of money, and I try to make it available to people who don't have money or don't have access to the financial resources for free and even that's not enough because people don't necessarily have the time or the financial freedom to invest time in thinking about this stuff.
[00:48:03] Mischa Byruck: And I think It makes sense that yeah, I, I mean, a lot of what I've got, the feedback that I've gotten from my courses and workshops is like, why aren't people teaching this stuff in school? And it feels like I'm kind of like offering secular, like moral education from a secular perspective, even though I do have like a religious and spiritual life personally, like I offer it in a secular framing.
[00:48:24] Mischa Byruck: But yeah, like, teaching morals, ethics, accountability, and integrity, and repair, like, a lot of people are like, yes, this should be taught in school,
[00:48:31] Mischa Byruck: like, we should be teaching embodiment in school, we should be teaching attunement in school, we should be teaching power awareness in school, we should be teaching historical context, like, yes.
[00:48:42] Mischa Byruck: I love it when a conversation gets there, because I really do feel like, At the end of all conversations about the work that you and I do, like, it comes back to like, why isn't this stuff being taught in school? It's like, kind of like, oh, this is familiar ground to tread on. And we're really, we're really, yeah, societally, unfortunately not ready.
[00:48:59] Mischa Byruck: So, I'm left to like build an independent LLC business around, around it. And the business model that's available to me is to, is to consult to people with the ability to pay 500 to a thousand an hour. You know, and I try to cost subsidize. Everything else with that, you know, and I do chart sliding scale and, you know, I'm also, I'm also weirdly really trying to like create a market, you know, like, please, if you're interested in this and you can afford it, pay top dollar, like create a market.
[00:49:34] Mischa Byruck: Like, let me be a beacon for other people who want to do integrity coaching work to see that there's a business model there. I think
[00:49:43] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[00:49:43] Mischa Byruck: it would be a useful thing for our society. I humbly, humbly submit that.
[00:49:49] Charna Cassell: Yeah. How incredible would it be if you got to be like, if you could work with, if there was actually politicians that were like, you know what, I really want this. And that it was required that like presidents, all politicians had to have their own systems of accountability that didn't look like the way they're already established, but, but they're taking, you know, they're, they're bringing a lot more heart
[00:50:20] Mischa Byruck: yeah, our, our, our country created a lot of really elegant checks and balances and it just personally what it looks like to have a deep personal integrity practice. Like, I'd love to think that our leaders have that. I don't think a lot of them really do. I, you know, some really do, you know? Here's a good example of like, like, my story or impression is when I see Mike Pence is someone who's like wrestling with integrity and accountability. Isn't that interesting? Like, I hate his politics. You know, and my story or impression is that this person actually has a moral compass that he's wrestling with at certain times and he's balancing political expediency, his own lust for power and influence and desire to be in the history books, his own relationships, and he's like in that, in that same struggle that all of us are in. Where it's never about just being a purely moral being, and it's always about like, oh, but I'm also ambitious, and like, is it okay for me to be a little pushy if it means making the sale? Or is it okay for me to be a little whiny if it means getting the, my boyfriend to take me out to dinner? Is it okay for me to be a little guilt trippy if it means getting this person to commit to me?
[00:51:29] Charna Cassell: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:51:30] Mischa Byruck: I think we're all out of integrity in a certain way. But like, what a lot of people on the left do, which is dismissing half the country as evil. Like, please don't do that. Like, that's to me really, really harmful. Like that's, you know, I don't believe in dehumanizing Donald Trump. I don't believe in canceling human beings. I think it robs us of our humanity.
[00:51:51] Charna Cassell: Agreed.
[00:51:52] Mischa Byruck: I really like I don't I think we could radically disagree. I think we should protest. I think we should be on the picket lines. I think we should hold people accountable. I think we should ask, you know, we should protest and get people to leave their jobs if we don't think that they're fit. Yes, all that.
[00:52:05] Mischa Byruck: But like, in our souls, like, let's remember that we are human beings all struggling to be in integrity. One of the, one of the deepest lessons that I have, that I've gained from the deep privilege of like working with people as they struggle with their own integrity is remembering that there but for the grace of God go I. Like I'm no different from you. I'm not, I'm not superior to anybody I work with. I'm not superior to you. I'm not superior to, you know, like, there's no, We all, we're all out of integrity in our lives in some ways, you know,
[00:52:41] Mischa Byruck: we're all in harm in little ways. All the time.
[00:52:45] Charna Cassell: Right. Yeah, I think of it. I always get the visual of a slider, like, you know, like, like old school you know, editing or audio equipment. And it's like, you can slide it this way. And maybe there's, you know, bombing a country and you slide it this way. And it's these small ways that we inflict harm on ourselves or others.
[00:53:04] Charna Cassell: And, you know, when Trump was elected, A very common thing that I was asking my clients was how are you trumping yourself, you know, how are you bullying yourself and we have, we have this range of ways that we keep ourselves in check or try to feel safe or protected or manage who we are and we have all of those parts, you know, we have that we're projecting out and, and wanting to banish in other people,
[00:53:36] Mischa Byruck: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:53:37] Charna Cassell: And so that's that, that's that, that work that we need to do with ourselves so that we don't always see things in black and white and we can live in the gray.
[00:53:47] Mischa Byruck: really, like, living in the gray is the real skill, you know? And it's so easy when you see someone harmful, you know, and really do harm, right? I mean it. Like, when you see someone who's really doing harm, villainize them. And everything in our society contributes to that, to lead to that, you know? We don't have yeah, a really beautiful book on this is Danielle Sered's Until We Reckon.
[00:54:15] Mischa Byruck: She runs one of the largest restorative justice organizations in Brooklyn called Common Justice. And she talks a lot about how, in our criminal justice system, we don't demand accountability. Like, punishment isn't accountability. You know, if I murder someone, I never have to apologize, even if I go to jail for it.
[00:54:35] Mischa Byruck: I never actually have to look someone in the eye, say I did the thing, look at their family, like, own it. Like take, like really sit in what she calls the fire, sit in the fire of accountability of just sitting with the discomfort of like the pain that I have caused. Our criminal justice system and the way that we've organized our society around harm, like, doesn't lead to accountability, right?
[00:55:01] Mischa Byruck: It leads to punishment. And it's really different. And we think about this stuff, it's so ingrained in us that it's hard to even see, you know? It's just so deep inside us. You know, the right to a fair trial, right? We all want that. It doesn't work in interpersonal harm. There is never going to be a fair trial. Who's going to be the judge? Who, you know, like, let's, are we all going to be cops in our little hippie communes? You know, like, what are we talking about here, y'all? You know, we have to find different ways than the criminal justice society has taught us to interact with each other as inevitably conflict oriented humans. And that doesn't look like creating miniature hippie versions of the criminal justice system with little hippie judges and hippie cops and hippie trials. That's not what I would recommend. And yeah, and we're not, we're not, we're not suited to it. And yeah, so I think a lot about the importance of, of, of, especially of leaders.
[00:56:03] Mischa Byruck: I think, I think generally, I, I recommend that this start with leadership. I think if you're a leader of a community or a leader of an organization and orienting yourself around a vision of being accountable that you can embody and demonstrate is so much more impactful to your organization or to your community than. through a mandatory you know, some perfunctory consent training or some perfunctory anti racist training, I think will really, really, truly like developing a practice where people see, Oh, the leader of this organization is a white man, but boy. When he's out of integrity, he really owns it. He's someone who cares about his integrity and like is orienting towards it.
[00:56:44] Mischa Byruck: And he's someone who welcomes that kind of critique and feedback and doesn't get defensive when it's pointed out to him.
[00:56:51] Charna Cassell: That last part is such the challenging key, you know?
[00:56:55] Mischa Byruck: Oh yeah.
[00:56:56] Charna Cassell: I mean, you
[00:56:57] Charna Cassell: know, if we had, we, we need to, you know, perhaps you can come back on and we can talk about this, but you know, just, just the thing that gets in the way of people being accountable, you know, how shame and defense Ends up shutting down all the conversations and, you know, like you're talking about white fragility or white guilt and it does the same thing it's like, okay, so let's just collapse into either shame and tears, or let's get so loud and scary that everyone backs away and stops talking.
[00:57:35] Charna Cassell: accusing or talking or, you know, bringing the hard things up. And, and so how to help people in that beginning phase of shifting from that state into a place where they can accept all parts of themselves enough to be then accountable to others.
[00:57:57] Mischa Byruck: And a multi year long process for some, you know, to really be, you know, but honestly, like if I could point to any single skill that I think that I like, I'm proud of myself for having developed. It's not defensiveness when I get called out. Like,
[00:58:13] Charna Cassell: That's huge.
[00:58:15] Mischa Byruck: and, and my callouts have, have at times been salty, you know, like people don't always say the feedback nicely, you know what I mean?
[00:58:22] Mischa Byruck: And like that's, right, like that's, that's the skill is, is to be able to hold it without getting defensive. And it really is like one of such a deep interpersonal skill and And, you know, I've definitely fucked it up, fucked even that part up as well, but like, it's really, it's something that I've really trained myself on.
[00:58:43] Mischa Byruck: It feels weird to like, brag about it. I'm not even bragging. It's just, it's an important skill. It's just such a, it really, really is. And it, it takes people out of the, the combative dynamic. It's so hard to offer feedback. Offering, like saying something that you think the other person is going to like take personally or, or, or create fear or might even create.
[00:59:03] Mischa Byruck: enmity or, or antagonism is so hard to do. So like, oh, and, and, and my, you know, and I honestly, let me just, let me just say, I don't know, maybe this is like, I'd love to hear your, your perspective on this too. But like my, my, my experience honing that skill is not banishing all defensive thoughts from my brain.
[00:59:23] Mischa Byruck: It's simply learning to take all those defensive thoughts you know, and not express them. And then just go to my altar and express them there and express them to my therapist or express them privately or express them to my journal, you know what I mean, like, like, I have, I have defensive thoughts when someone tells me that I did harm.
[00:59:42] Mischa Byruck: My first reaction is usually to like, be like, no, I didn't. God, you're so oversensitive. I, right? Like my first, like my immediate gut reaction is usually to poo poo it, it's to dismiss it or to minimize it. I just have learned not to express any of that and pause. Yes. Let it enter.
[01:00:02] Charna Cassell: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. So, from a somatic vantage point, I would say it, it asks that you have the ability to contain your sensations and emotions, right? So, you, it's like you might feel like the edges of your body are starting to boil, they're like prickly heat, and you're like, Oh my God, this person, what are they even talking about?
[01:00:25] Charna Cassell: You
[01:00:25] Charna Cassell: know? And, and holding it. And, and breathing and grounding, relaxing your pelvic floor and feeling your feet are useful tools in a situation like that. And then as the person sharing what they're sharing, reflective listening is always useful, right? Being able to acknowledge what you're hearing and, and how they're feeling, even though inside you're like, what are they, what, how?
[01:00:56] Mischa Byruck: yeah, for
[01:00:56] Charna Cassell: And, and the other side of that deescalated moment of whatever they're feeling. There might be room for what you, what your experience is, but, but really and then to then go and explore that because once that initial reaction, you might be able to see the seed of truth and what they were saying. Right, but that there's a level of there's either meditation some kind of physical and emotional containment, having a bigger window if you know about the concept of window tolerance or what I like to call window of capacity to be with.
[01:01:31] Mischa Byruck: Mm-Hmm?
[01:01:32] Charna Cassell: so yeah, I mean that takes its own training, so when you're expecting somebody who doesn't have, doesn't have those practices to not be defensive, I mean it's, even people with those practices can still often be defensive.
[01:01:46] Mischa Byruck: Very much, very much.
[01:01:47] Charna Cassell: I would love,
[01:01:49] Charna Cassell: I would love to keep talking with you and we need to wrap up.
[01:01:53] Mischa Byruck: you wrap up.
[01:01:55] Charna Cassell: Is there, is there is there a place that people can reach you, where can they find your courses?
[01:02:02] Mischa Byruck: Yeah. Go to Evolve Men for my coaching and go to Beyond Consent Love. for my teaching. And if you're in the Bay Area, go to spirit fight club. com for a really dope embodied conscious offering for men.
[01:02:20] Charna Cassell: Where you get to beat the shit out of each other.
[01:02:22] Mischa Byruck: Like talk about our feelings after.
[01:02:24] Charna Cassell: I'm teasing.
[01:02:25] Mischa Byruck: No, no real talk though, actually.
[01:02:28] Charna Cassell: Yeah.
[01:02:30] Mischa Byruck: It's open. We can talk about, this is a fight club that we talked about.
[01:02:33] Charna Cassell: That's awesome. All right. Well, so good to meet you.
[01:02:37] Mischa Byruck: Yeah. You too. Thanks.
[01:02:39] Charna Cassell: Was that as good for you as it was for me? If it was, we'd love it if you'd please rate and review it and share it with your friends so others can find us. If you have additional questions about living a vibrant life after trauma, we'd You can submit them at charnacacell.
[01:02:56] Charna Cassell: com. Follow me at Laid Open Podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionatelife. org. You can also sign up for my newsletter to stay informed. This has been Laid Open Podcast with your host, Charna Cassell. Until next time, keep coming.
