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The Curious Case Of The Bait & Switch with Sabrina Cognata

On the season opener of LaidOPEN Podcast, we welcome LaidOPEN Podcast producer Sabrina Cognata as our guest. When Charna receives a message from a listener who wants to potentially work with her and then sends a sexually explicit message, Charna reaches out to producer Sabrina who says, “Make art, not war.

In addition to being a producer of a variety of podcasts and projects, @sabrinasee is the creator of The Dickoupage Project aka @thedickoupageproject, which you can find on IG. Initially, the dick pic art project was available online, but you can sign up to read it via her Patreon, to get a better idea of her work and how it influenced and informed the conversation she has with Charna.

Together the two talk about consent, vulnerability, boundary crossing, the motivation behind sending unsolicited dick pics, fight, flight, and freeze responses, anger, manipulation, and of course, the bait and switch. The episode ends with a fantastic exercise from Charna to help address a variety of reactions when you find yourself in a situation where someone you trust or attempted to trust has set out to manipulate you.

Welcome back to late open podcast. I'm your host Charna caselle. And during my hiatus from recording this podcast, I was building an online course on how to live the passionate, pleasure filled and peaceful life you want, reduce self sabotaging behavior and gain control over your nervous system. Creating courses for people around the world to understand the impact of trauma on their relationships, and their bodies and how they can heal is something I've wanted to do for over a decade. I'm thrilled it's finally happening. And I'll keep you posted as to when it launches. For now you can also sign up for my newsletter, read my blog, or send any questions you'd like to have answered about healing relationships and living a vibrant life after trauma at Charna Today's guest is my Podcast Producer, Sabrina cook nada who is also a writer, an artist, a producer and an editor for this podcast and so I'm thrilled to have her here welcome Sabrina Hello, hello. Hi, I wanted you to be my co host guest today for a very particular reason. So I see you as almost like my an alter ego, who is super fierce in kick ass and does not take any shit even more than the I already feel like I am that compared to a lot of people out there. And and you have some stories that have blown my mind about how you operate in the world. And maybe lucky listeners, she will share some of them with us today. But I, I just got a thumbs up from the Phantom ghost who lives in my Zoom. Baby, we want to hear those stories. I swear to God, it's haunted. And so I received a message from possibly a listener or someone who has found me somehow through the internet who was pretending to be a potential client. And, and it's what I would call the old bait and switch. Because it was actually a sexually assaulting message. And it was it was there were a couple of messages. And you were one of the first people that came to mind when I was like when I was filled with a sense of fury vengeance as well as a free initial freeze response. When I got over the freeze response. I thought what would Sabrina do? I wanted to like to tap into the workings of your mind. You've become a kind of interesting resource, my psyche. I mean, you wouldn't be the first to say that. Why don't you read the letter so people can have an idea of why it was so jarring and why you felt like you wanted to do something about it. Yeah. So first, I'll say that the initial message I received, I responded to an offered the guy a bunch of resources because my private practice is full. The first message was titled overcoming sexual confusion, trauma and working on overall sexual confidence and helping with learning how to last longer. So I want you all to know that if you are writing me genuinely to do some psychotherapy or healing work, this would be confidential and I would not be sharing something like this. But once you assault me, you cross a line. And all bets are off and I don't owe you anything ethically. So the that first I'll just read that message. The first message was really interested in meeting you and potentially having a couple of sessions around my unhealthy views regarding sex and problems I have in my current life and sex life. I really need the help and we'll do whatever it takes. Please get back to me at your earliest convenience. Thank you so There was a level of urgency and eagerness and I thought, Oh, this guy, you know, he genuinely wants some support. So I took the time to respond genuinely provided a bunch of resources. And then he actually tried to friend me on facebook. Of course he did. And so I did not respond to that. So yeah, if you're wanting to be my psychotherapy client of mine, don't friend me on Facebook. And then a couple of weeks later, I received this message. Really, I'd like to explore kinks and fantasy and Fuck you and your ass while you own my cock, on and off in your mouth. And wherever else you may want, and want to learn to hold my pop and make you squirt like a fountain. I just want to have a wild night of crazy kinky sex, and possibly drugs. One, God bless him for offering you drugs, he probably would need it too. He did say we're at wherever you wanted the penis to go. You know what I mean? Like you said, so thoughtful after attempts. Right? There's some silver linings. I mean, I don't know how long you waited to contact me after you read that. But like, I would say it was the same night you were like, Oh, you have to see this message. And like, what can I do? I feel very violated. And it wasn't like over the course of one evening like, she messaged you. You responded with, you know, information and resources. And then weeks later, she was like, You know what, I should circle back and tell her I'm gonna come on or like that will heal me. Truly. Yeah, it's it's an interesting thing, right? It's not like, this was impulsive. It was more strategic in some Yes. You know, like to think about, should I respond to this web server couple a couple of weeks later. Well, we eventually discovered that this is not this is an account, that's probably a fake account. So whoever this was, probably didn't sign in right away and check the message. You know, I hadn't even I hadn't even thought about that. I mean, you know, yeah, so what you're right, that when I received this message, it felt like, I was punched in the chest. And as I describe it, I can feel it right now. And it's like a, everything kind of froze and got hard, it's hard to breathe, it squeezes up into my throat and into my face. And everything from my ribs down kind of disappears. So there's first a freeze response. And I want people who are considering sending messages like this to, to, to women or to anyone to know, this is not a sexy turned on body feeling. This is the feeling of fear. And, and, and maybe that's your turn on. And maybe that's your intention. And I don't want to be afraid. So don't do it. That's a conversation you need to have with somebody. Like if fear is your kink. That's a conversation that you have with somebody ahead of time. Like if you try to make me afraid, God fucking bless you, I'm going to drag you to hell, I don't want to feel frayed. And I'm not agreeing to feel afraid for you for fun or for fantasy. That is key what you just said, which is consent, right? There's this piece here around consent, and it's a very different thing. I mean, obviously, he owns and acknowledges and I don't like to use the word healthy or unhealthy. But this guy does on in the message, I have unhealthy views around sex and problems. And so he's acting out, he's acting it out. And he is showing me directly. This is what you'll be working with if he if it was a genuine message. Right? And I don't doubt he does, or otherwise he wouldn't assault a stranger this way. Right? Because that's what this is. It's whether you send a picture of your deck, or whether you're, you know, writing writing soliloquy is about it. Yeah, you know, it is assault. Yes. Whether you're touching me with your hands or with your words, it is assault. If it's unwanted, if it's unwanted. Right, you know, either find someone to sex with you know, that's consensual. This versus not, but it's not as exciting. I understand that. It's not as exciting when you have to tell the person hey, I want to make you feel like shit. That's gonna make my dick hard. I want you to feel the worst ever because because to have that conversation, you the other person may be like, Okay, well, why? Because I'm that person and be like, Okay, well, I want to get into the darker shade here before like I fucking jolly Rogers or whatever. Like, why why is this your thing? Why do I have to put up with this? Well, so here's the thing, right? I mean, again, for some people, you can consensually work out a scene and that's the case that you just you just suggested it's like, well, you know, making you terrified is going to make my deck hard. I think for some people Well, that's the case. But the other thing, and this I actually just went to my high school reunion, and I confronted a boy, well, he's a man now a very big tall man. But as a kid in, in photography class, he would grope me and grabbed me and he would grab my breasts. And I had avoided him for the last three reunions. And I made eye contact with him. I was like, You know what this list for sure. I want to get something out of this experience, because so far, it's really pretty vacuous. Like I, I looked at him, he said, Hi, because he hadn't even said, Hi, because I would avert his gaze. And I said, let's talk. He's like, Am I in trouble? And we know this is what's amazing, Sabrina. So I can I describe the situation. And it was very unconfrontational. Because I was basically like, so I'm curious what you thought about this over the years, because I really wondered, I thought I made up a story that he felt ashamed. And that was why he wouldn't make eye contact with me. And he was uncomfortable with what he had done and felt remorse, because he didn't even realize he had done it, you had no memory, no memory. And here's the reality. And I said to him, it's because it was insignificant to you. And when you have strong positive or negative emotions, it lays down memory tracks. And then when you revisit those, it reinforces the memory tracks. So this was a memory that was very impactful to me. He wasn't the only one. And it was, it was very distressing. And my body continues to heal and release trauma from this band of armoring and energy around my chest from getting breast at an early age. And it's just wild, he went down a totally different route. He was like, Well, I've got daughters, I don't want them to experience that. I'm like, Of course you don't. She's like, buddy, he was like, but I don't. But we never even hooked up. And I'm like, Yeah, well, even if I did hook up with you, it doesn't give you in the right or permission to grab me if I'm saying no, and pushing you away. That does not give you the right to grab me. But but so I digress. The reason I brought that up was I don't think he maliciously was grabbing me to create fear. For me, I think that boys are number one. They're not attuned, because they're so hyper aroused. They're so turned on in their own little systems, they're tracking what feels good to them, or what they want, and their brains are not fully developed. And they have no impulse control. But, you know, I think part of the problem is how society is asked women to respond to that, because I'm the person that's like, touch me again, I'm gonna rip your arms off or shut them up your ass. And then we'll book and talk about how fun it is when other people touch you when you don't want to be touched. Exactly. Well. And that's the thing. It's like, well, then suddenly, you're violent. And you're, you know, where's your impulse control? Right? Like, why are we supposed to be the ones who have impulse control? I'm mirroring the violence that I'm I'm perceiving is occurring to my body. And just because you think what I'm doing is violent, doesn't mean it's not violent to me. To me. That's fucking a symphony of fucking beautiful music, or I'm speaking the common language of the Society of men that I live in. Because if I'm like, Oh, please, no, they're like, Oh, such a gray hair. I'm like Lamy gets so fucking not gray, that there's no question in your mind that if your brain body connection tells you to touch mine, the ins and blood, you will do a drawback. Or at least one bloody sound, hopefully to and like we, as a society, we teach women the most softest way to say no. And then men men literally in response to that say, Oh, I couldn't tell. So like, you know, in my opinion, in my vantage point, I am saying no, in such an abusive way in the language of MIT violence, that if they're questioning what the fuck that means, at that point, we have a real goddamn sicko on our hands. Like, I couldn't tell. I'm like you got Intel. That's why you don't need fucking arms, dude. That's why I don't have any arms. Okay, so. So speaking of blood, there is a story that you shared with me. And I would love for you to share. Then the bloody bathroom story. Okay, this is the story of the bloody bathroom and about maybe over maybe about 10 years ago, maybe over 10 years ago, this chick that I knew she texts me and she's like, come to Redondo Beach, there's a party. I get to this fucking party and it's not a party. It's like a girl drinking out a bottle of vodka that I know. And this guy whose house she's at, and his girlfriend, and the girlfriend goes to bed, and the three of us are drinking now and then I want to say somebody put a bunch of Xanax in the in the vodka. So the girl who invited me passed out, and then for whatever reason I laid on the floor next to her because I was like, I'm gonna pass out soon. And I do Pat. I think this guy acts like he's going to bed or something. And so like, I was like, Oh, she and I are together, we're fine. But she's like, passed out passed out. And at some point, it's like, I don't even know what explain if you've not most women will understand this. But it's like when you are in, like, the fucking fifth dimension. And like You're like asleep, but your brains like ditch wake up right now. And I'm like coming to and I realized that somehow this guy has moved her over and is now laying on the ground next to me, and is trying to put his fingers inside of me but I'm on my period. And I feel as I'm coming to you, I feel him like yank on the tampon string, but also act disgusted that I'm on my period. And to put blood on stuff would be too disgusting for him a fucking rapist. So he, like gets up. He says something like go back to sleep or something because I want to like have a conversation. I'm like coming to and I lay there for a while trying to figure out what the fuck went on. And then like, you know, I think at first it was freeze about like, My fight is so nuts. I get up and like, first of all, he yanked on a tampon string. That thing is coming out. You know what I mean? I'm like, Okay, well, now we're in DEF CON read, you know, so I go to the bathroom and inside the bathroom, it's just like, I am overtaken by rage. And I finished taking the tampon out. And instead of putting you into the toilet and the trash or whatever it was, I take it is I'm just dripping blood everywhere all over this bathroom. Now. I started to rub on the towels and on the mirror, and on the sink. And on the rug, the bloody tampon the soaked up tampons, and just like you know what, fuck this guy. Fuck this guy in Aramaic had blood on his walls. And then I don't have another tampon. I'm like looking in this bathroom. Like how they have no pain points in this fucking bathroom. So like, I have to leave dripping blood, like a fucking trail of tears all the way to my car, and I have some in my trunk. And we're putting a tampon in fucking the middle of the night of like outside of my car standing there, just like what the fuck just went on. And then the next day, his girlfriend called me and was like, what happened in my bathroom? And I was like, Why don't you ask Mike, what happened in your bathroom? I feel like Mike knows what happened in that bathroom. And then nobody called me back after that. And like, although there was like a gray area story, there's really no happy ending. Like, I don't really say much to him. Like, I guess I'll not a lot of people paint in their own fucking vaginal blood on your shit for retribution. But like, that's the level that I go to, you know what I mean? And that is the story that made me think of you. It's like, got this email. So, you know, I worked at Good Vibrations. And in my early 20s, in my in my mid 20s. And I was so naive. And I just wanted to help people. And there were multiple situations that happened, where I got lessons in people being bankers, and being out for their own pleasure and doing the the bait and switch. Right. So one guy he called, and he feigned having penis cancer. And he was like, I need a product that's going to help me fuck my partner because I no longer have a dick. And I was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me put you on hold that I like put him on hold to go ask my colleagues who erupted in laughter and they're like Charta. He's a freakin wanker. Like what are you and I, I just flip lips that and so in person. People would do this to me and do different things and cross boundaries, as well as over the phone and I so I got really schooled. I called it boundary bootcamp. When I worked in collaboration, I love that. I mean, I didn't grow up with boundaries is why I was at a stranger's house in the middle of the night, like, oh, let's drink. Why not? It took me a long time to learn that, you know, one, I have to take care of myself and keep myself out of harm's way and to you can't hope other people are gonna have boundaries. I guess I I destroyed a lot of different things over the years to realize like the part that I played, like, I get it, I get I am the victim in most of those kinds of stories. But like it no longer happens because I would no longer be there, you know? Yeah, like being in those situations. Nine times out of 10 I was showing up and if I showed up and have a weird feeling now I just leave I don't have an argument with you. I'm just like, This feels weird. I'm outta here. It's it's interesting. Be because, you know, I also didn't grow up with boundaries in my household I was very boundary with boys with men. But I would also freeze and when you have a freeze response you physically I, let's be clear that physiologically, if the, if your fight doesn't take over and your freeze persists you even have a hard time vocalizing or saying no. And that's why it's so often it's just an absurd question to ask someone like, why did you say no, if they were being raped, like you lose the physical your body becomes immobilized, because it's the smartest thing for your system to do. If you think back to other mammals and other animals that freeze and dangerous predatory situations. If you're moving, you seem like you're alive and you're more tasty snack, but if you don't move, you're perceived as dead, which means Oh, you're you could be rotting and not good for my digestive tract. Right? Dude, I wish I was rotting when this happens. You know, I so often I'm so frustrated with our with with humans, evolutionary protective strategies. I feel like there are other animals like giving off the stench of death squirting ink, doing all sorts of really creative things that humans just like, why don't we have those options? We have blood dude, let me tell you most effective, the most effective thing we have is blood and anytime. Like there's a dude on Twitter who likes to he definitely is a stalker. He's got my brother's phone number, my mom's phone number telling me over the years, he wants to use sanitary napkins and he wants a pair of shoes. For me. I told him that there are $1,000 each. And I don't use a sanitary napkin because I'm from California. And I use a period cups. And I don't understand the nuance of the USPS. But I'm pretty sure they do not want a bag of blood being sent through the mail. But like, it's interesting, because I told that guy like if this is transactional, this is my fee. And he was so mad that I asked for a lot of money, that he started to obsess that he found my phone number for to obsessively call me. So of course, I just found all his information and made the internet obsessively call him until he had to get a new phone number. And right well, you can't see this but turn a thumbs up me the deal is and I think it just tied back into kind of what happened to you is that like, there is a specific response that men are looking for when they do this shit. And each one of them thinks that they're going to be a low one that revolutionizes the wheel, especially when dealing with me, because like, I didn't think you would do this. And I'm like, You are literally bait and switching me dude. I was neutral kind, like and I like live in the area of chaos to some degree. So you're getting a neutral kind chaos from me, which like, it keeps things interesting and fresh for me, and also for whoever I'm interacting with. But also I'm like chaos can do whatever the fuck it wants. It means I'm a wildcard in every situation. So if you're not completely truthful, in who you are, and what your motives are, you can't have any idea where the narrative will go next, because I will take it over and your life becomes hell. And like, I don't want to have to be living in that mindset. But every time I've tried to be like, Oh, I'll see how this goes. I'm always like, damn, I gotta teach your motherfucker a lesson because they thought they could fucking fuck with me. And it's just very, very interesting because, like, you know, I'm less inclined to want to do that new. But there's still so many opportunities for me to do it. Because men open the door to it based on how they feel they can treat me in in you and other women for that matter, because like, it's not like you're you're the only person who comes to me with things like this to be like, let's get him. I didn't realize this guy was in the brick of cocaine. He had made him a drug dealer. You know what I mean? I had a friend tell me that last week you know what I mean? I'm like this case look I'm playing is you regular people don't have bricks of cocaine. Okay? But and stuff like that, where I'm just like, as women we're told to trust a man until they do something heinous. Not like questionable and if you are questioning a man along the way, you're a bitch. How dare you? You shouldn't be but it's like where's trust gotten me when I inherently trust a man it gets me messages like yours. Like oh, so glad you responded and ready to come on your face. And it's like, what? I'm sorry I don't even know. You know the sad part it's not the it's not the first time right like this is this I have on several occasions that I have received Dick Pics or, or totally sexually inappropriate messages like that from people who are pretending to want trauma healing, and I have no doubt they have trauma to heal. But I peculiarly insidious and shitty when there is what They try to traumatize you in the process, because that's really what it Yeah, well, there's no, there's no awareness or responsibility being taken for their impact. And if you know, they're either a in intending and wanting to have that kind of impact, right? Like they're wanting to fill you with a lack of upset, or that's their, their turn on, or there's just not any consciousness around how their behavior will impact another person. And that for me is one of the deigned for honestly, like, I don't have anyone in my life. Friends, clients, family, I don't spend time or put any energy towards people who aren't willing to be accountable for their impact. And so if you do want me to put attention towards you, you really want to look at taking responsibility for yourself. Because I'll cut you Yeah, thank you. For kidding. Well, no, no, you're such a kind person, you know, when you're, you're like, Oh, I'm gonna get on the like, no, they're not bleeding, we have to get, you know what I mean? That's like, where I go, I'm like, let's just get them so that if they ever do this behavior again, they're going to be worried it's me, I boogeyman you know what I mean? My mom's the Boogeyman. My mom's a scariest person I've ever met, and one will hottest people I've ever met. And I've seen men become addicted to her from cutting their heads off. And like, you know, it's you don't end up like me on accident, you're taking in information as a child. And then you're like, Oh, so that's what works. You're also attracting those men based on something that you're doing at the same time? Because I won't say that it's all men, even though all of my friends have had this interaction. It's just some guy named Seth, who lives on an island. And he's doing it to all of us, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, look, every guy I know is like, Oh, no guilty of it. Oh, not guilty of it. But some of my most healthy relationships are with guys who have done that. And I had to cut their head off and be like, Why would you do that? And why would you try? Yeah, you know what I mean? And like having to, especially in the last few years, just be very real with him and be like, I don't actually want. I know, I'll see you because we know each other socially. But do you understand what you did? That is? Correct. Like, it's an I think, even though it takes less time to do that, it's a lot more mothering labor is what I will call it because you're having to spend the time to teach a lesson to somebody instead of like, just scaring the shit out of them the way a man would, with why I always say like, I speak the language of men, I speak in violence, because I don't want to be put in a position where I'm societally obligated to explain to you what you did wrong. However, as I've come to fucking realize men are dipshits. They don't have any idea what they're doing is wrong. They're just like, oh, well, you seem like pretty loose online. So I figured I could talk to you like that. And it's like, no, you can talk to me like that, when you have crawled across the globe, and your hands and your knees are so bloody, that you have to get new ones. And you will put in the time and the dedication to being that person, right now. You're just a scumbag. It's like what my experience such an interesting thing that when you talk like that, Sabrina, I have two reactions. Right. So like, one is the, you know, I totally resonate, and have had so many experiences that align with what you're describing. And then another part of me knows a different experience, and has had a different experience. And, and I I want men to heal, because they have, because they have so much power to do so much harm. I really want to support their healing doesn't mean that doesn't mean I don't want to be called out. No, I think that some men are evil, and some men are dumb. And I think that sometimes there's an intersection between the two I grid, the reality is, is that we're not informing men from a young age of any of these things. And we're giving them the privilege and entitlement to feel like the behavior that they're exhibiting, yes, no. So the guy at my reunion my high school reunion that used to grab me and will, and who has these teenage daughters, and he basically was saying, Yeah, you know, I, I get really, I'm uncomfortable, and sometimes I'm like, can you go cover up? And he was saying to me, like, well, what should I tell my daughters? And I was like, Well, have you ever thought about what should you tell the boys like you He works? He always at a summer program? I'm like, You need to teach them, how to attune How to Have you know how to respect boundaries and how to read micro expressions like where's the training for the teachers who were were weird and sexually assaulted in high school that I and other people experience for sure. Where's the fucking training for the boys stop putting it on the girls and making them wear longer. You know dresses have less cleavage like for him, which is unfortunately remarkable. Well, any house daughter? I mean, like it's like it's really sure it's 2023. And this is new information. And yeah, you need to Yeah. It's not new information because he lives in a patriarchal society where the onus is on women to protect themselves by wearing their Botha. Oh, yeah, I know, there was a period of time and I called it the, you know, the, the burn energetic burqa? Well, I couldn't even believe physically felt like I was being electrocuted. It was the weirdest period of time, Sabrina. But when random men would just make small talk with me, even at Staples, it was like buying office supplies, I could feel their energy in this weird way that I experienced as, like electric shocks. And I, it caused me to pull all of my energy in it's a very particular unusual experience. I don't think this is like a typical thing for women or whatever. But I just had to go into my little cave and protect myself for an extended period of time, I just had to just kind of shut it all out. I almost feel like your ability to attune to other people, lets you know what their motives are. And in and stealing the motive, which is sexually driven. It's like that same thing that you people say all the time, which is, if you're only being nice to a woman that you want to fuck the problem is you I go out of my way to try to look like dumpster fire trash when I leave the house if I don't want to have any interactions with men, and I still have to have these interactions with men, because I'm very, very, very large for us. And it's like, buddy, I just want to buy toilet paper today. I don't want to answer your question, or I'm sorry that your dog is lost, or whatever your line is, whatever the con is where you're stepping into this reality with me and like, I'm not having it. I don't want to have it. Like go go find somebody who looks like a mark. It's not me. I know. It's not me. But like your ability to attune to other people, which is a gift, also for a while was hurting you exactly. Because it's hard to turn off when you know, a man is turned on, on just as simple back and forth. You know, because you want to shrink, it's what a lot of women do is shrink the like oblige the conversation and then run away, which is fine. You know what I mean? And it's like, it's something society teaches us and it's like, hey, you know, and my preference is to just be like, I don't know why you're talking to me stop, I have been hit by lots of strangers for doing that. I've been like punched right in the side of the head before. For every time I've been hit. It's been worth it. Because I know I'm entering into a situation with somebody who has supreme violence inside of them. And the fact that I am not responding in a way that they need, has triggered the true monster. And the monster comes out immediately. And it's like, Oh, my God, I know. I said, some guys are evil. And some guys are dumb. And there's the intersection of them. And this is it. Because if you have no like tools, and you can't control that impulse, if you're so horrible, that you can't control that impulse that you have to hit somebody because they're like, I don't want to have this conversation, whatever it is just fuck off. Like, okay, cool. Thank you for showing everybody in this room who you really are. And part of me loves doing that. Because there always is somebody like you who's like, oh, well, they're not all horrible. I'm like, Well, you saw that guy earlier. Right? I know, he's not every guy. But first often is that happens. It pretty much can be a guy in every room will do that. At least one guy, in my opinion, usually more. And that's the kind of stuff people don't want to talk about. Because like, well, we have to give men a chance. First of all, we don't want to give men a chance. We're living in a time where women just didn't have to deal with men for a couple of years. And like my stress level went down to zero. You know, I was like, I'm having such a good life. And like I'm pursuing the things that I like, I'm taking care of myself. But the relationships that I really focused on during the pandemic, really, really were fortified, you know? And then when I was like, oh, I should start dating again. I was like, oh my god, it's a nightmare. The thing that makes my life terrible is men. And I know I'm not the only one because like the data that's occurring right now suggests that like women are giving up on men and men are still doing the same dumb stuff. still sending the same stupid messages. Please help me. I want to come on your face. You know what I mean? It's like, if you refuse To do the work to get the result that you want, which is a woman's sexual adoration and love, then you don't get it. And like, it's just not worth it anymore. And I think that your letter really aligns with this thing that men are going through right now at large, because they're very confused. And I talked to them, and they're just like, I don't understand what's happening and only but should do, like you do, what you're offering no longer has value it makes. When I was in my early 20s, I started doing somatic therapy and coaching. And so I was in the survivors, somatic survivors group, and we would do these physical practices that come out of martial arts. And I started to develop embodied boundaries. And I hadn't had a conversation with my mom yet, who is the primary person in my family, I am in touch with. You know, like, so when I saw her, I was aware of the fact that there were no boundaries in my family growing up and the ways that I wasn't protected in the ways that my boundaries were crossed. And I hadn't had that conversation with her, even though I talked about abuse, like starting at 14, we'd had those conversations, I hadn't talked to her about what I was working on, currently. And she at one point confronted me and she's like, it's not you're not fun to be with. And I'm having a hard time you're being so mean to me. And I addressed the boundary thing. And I said, you know, these Boundary Crossings that occurred, and I need there to be boundaries in our relationship. And she was like, What do you mean, what Boundary Crossings and so I've no idea exactly. So it's not just a man thing. It's a person thing. It's it's cycles of abuse cycles of like, not being attuned, not being being able to see outside of your own dysregulation, and freeze or fight responses. So that specifically, I gave my mom an example. And I said, Remember that time, when I was trying to do my math homework when I was 10. And you came out of the bedroom from having sex, I turned Madonna's lucky star up really loud to cover the sound of you having sex, you came out, wearing a little lunghi like a piece of fabric wrapped around her her body and started doing that dance and started lap dancing on me. And your boyfriend was cheering it on telling you how sexy you were. That was you crossing my boundaries. And she like a light head. And she said something that I thought was really important, which was you can't change the rules of the game without telling me. And and there, what was user like, oh, yeah, I can't exceed who's willing and not mentally ill. So hack, number one, have a conversation, but also to be able to change her behavior, even though it was really awkward for a period of time. Like she was very much walking on eggshells trying to figure out how to have boundaries when she was never trained how to do that. But that conversation opened something. And there was a willingness there because she loves me and wants a relationship with me. And so if you zoom out on into it, like a like a social, we're in the conversations, we're really hurt. We're angry teenagers. But we do love we do. We want to love and we loved and we want things to change. But we need to have the conversations and express the anger and express the desire for boundaries initially. Right? And then people can awkwardly figure out how to relate differently and develop the skills, the attunement skills, the boundary skills, all of that. But it has to start. Yeah, well, I think so as you go, you know what I mean, you can't let something happen. I'm always guilty of waiting weeks to be like, I'm finally ready to talk about when I asked you not to show up early and early or whatever the dumping is, you know what I mean? Like, you have to have that as quickly as you can, because it loses the power that you could well and the person if you wait 30 years, the guy's not going to remember having crossed your boundaries. I mean, that's that's the tricky thing, right? Is that it's yes, you can't you don't always have the internal resources to speak up for yourself in the moment do it. And that is why it's it's like I will feel like I have made a difference in this world if somehow I can contribute something that stops this question. Well, why didn't you talk about the abuse? When you were five? What had happened? It's like, Are you fucking kidding me? You know, that is that that the whole dialogue needs to stop. We need to realize that people have enough shame and trauma around and experience. We live in a culture where we tell children to be quiet to be seen and not heard. You know what I mean? So like, we're, we're fine tuning this, like, abuse into small children from the get go. And then we're being like, by the way, you should have said something, but you shouldn't at all. Yeah, it is a bait and switch. And we teach that that level of victimization bait and switch very, very early. Right. Right, right. I don't know. Exhale. You know, I say to you, Sabrina, that I, we met through the binders group, and which is this, this group on Facebook, and I was asking for a resource around a social media person. And you reached out to me, and I feel very grateful that you're in my life. And I feel like you're my advocate in my, in my fucking not just that cheerleader era thing and no more look, I see you, I believe in you. I won't let anybody do anything shitty to you. When I'm a baller. Like, I also need you to not let people do shitty things to you when I'm not allowed. Yeah, well, and that's the thing is, I feel it's funny because I feel like I have a softer handed approach to exactly that. And it's, it's so deeply satisfying for me to get to do these sessions with clients where I'm the one standing in front of them, and like defending them and protecting them from, you know, like going back in time and reenacting a scene from when they were abused, and I get to be their protector. And I feel that archetype fiercely in me. And I haven't had that from other people. And so I like, I mean, I feel like I could cry right now. And I think about that, I really feel like you are that. And so thank you. Oh, I love you, Toronto. I love and thank you for seeing me. And it is interesting, because I think we have a lot of the same not to dumb this down to art, like art theory, but like, you know, the Romantic period comes before the realist period, because romantics are just like, put their whole heart into everything. And they're just like, we can fix it, we can make it better, you know, and then the people who survive the Romantic period, they become realist, because that's the next art period, because it's like, it didn't fucking work. Okay, love was not the answer. It turned out like you have to have other shit like boundaries and communicate your needs and chips. Okay. And so there's like, a little more edge to realism. It's like, yeah, it's just a bunch of fucking haystacks, dude, like, that's all I got for you. They're gonna, there's nothing exciting about it, because everything sucks. Speaking of art, I don't think we mentioned the fact that you have a particular art project and page on Instagram called the dico podge project. Yes, I think I think that gives me just like, the decapods project started as a dick pic art project. And like, now it's just like, kind of, you know, a funnel for feminist ideals. Because it turns out women didn't want to see the depicts. And they were just like, you please stop, please stop. But like in doing that our project, which if you're interested in it, you can subscribe to my Patreon, which is linked in my bio, on my Instagram on my bio on anything, it just gave me such a particular insight into the levels of insecurities of men, but while also having complete power, just being like, I don't want to have this conversation with you. Fuck off, buddy. And it was like, you know, guys asking lots of questions, or like, you know, openly being like, Oh, do you want to shame my little penis? And it's like, no, I don't even want to look at your little penis like I want. This is work for me. Like you're asking me to do my job, which again, ties into you doing your job? You know what I mean? Like, you're asking me to do my job, nothing sexy about my job. Like, I just want to fucking do my job and then go to my free time. Although I've had like a variety of different experiences with men at large doing that project just really opened the door for how insanely insecure every man is from top to bottom, and in how sad they are, and how much they're looking to belong in whatever way they can, and they don't have the words or the tools. We don't come equipped with tools to start as people. But I feel like we do a disservice to men because we're not teaching them really any of the community ship that we're teaching women like lagoda Other women talk to other women ask for help. And so men come to women with all of these things and it becomes overwhelming and then women don't want to do it anymore because doing the work for you and for Mi is not, it's not worth it. And you know, I just have a very deep insight into all of this shit because of that experience. Yeah. And so any anywhere else that that people can find you and connect with you if your voice resonated with them. You can find me on really anything if you look up at Sabrina SESABRINA S E, Sabrina see? But if you look up that, like that, Sabrina See, I use it for almost everything. And come and find me and remember to be kind or she'll rip your heart out and eat it. Thank you so much. I love you, Charna Thank you for having me on today. Thank you. All right, bye. Do you know what to trust? How can you tell when someone's being inauthentic and wants something other than what they're pretending to initially want. Some people are master manipulators and will appeal to what you value and care about to lure you in. There's no perfect response to being assaulted, bullied or taken advantage of. We're all having a specific reaction to the situation as it's happening. The more we become aware of our automatic responses, we can intentionally choose how we want to respond. With practice, we develop more control over our reactions. You may find you have multiple impulses and they're layered. For yours. My fight response is buried underneath a freeze because to fight could have been lethal in my household growing up. When I eventually thought about my freeze, I discovered capacity to stand up for myself as well as step aside and redirect a situation without conflict. While I appreciate the highly entertaining creative and vengeful anecdotes of young women on Tik Tok and considered using some of their tactics with this guy, nowadays you don't know what's a real versus a fake profile. You may also fear retribution from someone hiding behind a screen especially someone who wants attention through any means necessary. Any attention is good attention to them. So like with the jumping dog if you shout NO, the dog doesn't know the difference between saying hi, you good boy. And no stop it. Any attention may keep the dog jumping, turning your back taking your energy away and not rewarding. The bad behavior can be an effective strategy. But sometimes you may want to confront rather than disengage. When someone crosses your boundaries, whether it's online or in person, the range of nervous system responses can be the same. You may freeze find you aren't breathing and have a tremendous amount of energy running through your body. You could have a flight response, want to retreat, hide, distract yourself or get high. Maybe you don't know what you're feeling then get foggy and numb, which is a sign of dissociation. If you were conditioned to be a good girl and be nice, you likely sensor how you want to respond for fear of being mean, while others have a fire response are filled with fury that may want to meet the violation with the same degree of aggression and inappropriateness. Here are three actions you can take in relation to them. Disengage and block them. Search their profile and find out their real identity on the dark web or US endless people finding options. post their photo on social media and call them out publicly. Now, here's some things you can do solely to work with your nervous system. If your tendency is to rage, then the new practice may be to regulate yourself if you tend to dismiss and minimize or freeze when you're scared or angry. The practice is to let it move through and be expressed. If someone has assaulted you via email or text and you feel angry or scared your arms face chest and belly may tighten up and get really hot. It's likely the memory of a previous boundary crossing is also activated in your system. If you're boiling, feel the rage and move it through your body in these ways you can push against a wall. Ask a trusted friend to wrestle with you. Take a metal bat to a dead tree stump. Rip cardboard or old phone books. Rent a smash room or create your own wear goggles and long sleeves and break some bottles if you have a safe place to throw and break things. Cut a job at a Greek restaurant and break plates. If you have a full depth mat, futon or couch cushions, put them against the wall and lay on your side and kick into them. Go running imagine you're running on their face with each step. hit baseballs or kick a soccer ball. play tug of war with a pillow. Feel your strength and let yourself make noise and sounds while you grab it and pull. eat beef jerky, Apple, celery, anything that lets you dig your teeth in and bite. If you have access to a punching bag, go for it If you feel agitated and want to calm yourself slowing your breath down and actually remembering to breathe is the most direct and immediate way to change your state. When a thoughtless fucker gives you the opportunity to practice calming your nervous system, try these two short inhales through your nose. And one long exhale out your mouth and breathe right back in and exhale right back out, creating a continuous cycle. Do this five to 10 times. Another option is full belly breathing until your belly presses against your ribs. Slow full in through your nose, all the way up into your chest and when your belly presses against your ribs and activates your vagus nerve. I hope some of these options are helpful. Was that as good for you as it was for me? If it was, I'd love if you'd please rate and review it and share it with your friends so others can find us. If you have additional questions about living a vibrant life after trauma, you can submit them at Charna Please follow me at laid open podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate This has been laid open podcast with your host Charna caselle. Please join us again next week. Until then, keep coming

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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