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One Taste into the World of Cults with Rebecca Farrar, William Winters & Tyson Adams

This week we welcome, William Winters, Rebecca Ferrar, and Tyson Adams to talk about their various experiences with cults or cult-like communities with a special focus on the One Taste community. In case you don’t know, OneTaste is a business that focused on teaching the practices of orgasmic meditation, better known as OM, and slow sex led by Nicole Daedone. Although rooted in the teaching of Eastern philosophy, the central focus was a meditation practice around a man touching a woman’s genitalia. Eventually, it was outed as a cult in the controversial Netflix documentary The Orgasm, Inc. on Netflix.

Tyson Adams is an integrated men’s work practitioner and happens to have done a lot of searches around cults after having his own experiences in different communities. You may also remember @tysonadams_ as a returning guest from Episode 55. William Winters is the founder of the Bonobo Tribe, @bonobotribe on IG, a sex-positive community that throws parties, teaches workshops, and offers general resources to poly people. And Rebecca Farrar is a well-known astrologer better known on IG as @wildwitchofthewest, who also participated in the One Taste courses. She is still integrating and understanding what she took away from her experience there. 

Together we spend an hour dissecting our own experiences, yes, even I have my own experiences with the One Taste community and chat about a variety of things related to One Taste and cults at large. This includes the differences between cults and communities, our natural desire to belong, how to spot a cult, the sense of language or jargon these communities often have, and what it means if you leave the group and ultimately are forced to abandon the community you’ve learned to lean on.

If cults, the brainwashing used by nefarious leaders, and how people become drawn to and eventually a part of cults is something that interests you, this is the episode for you.

Show Notes Hey there welcome back to lead up and podcast. This is your host Charna cosell and today we have a really special episode we have a group conversation that's going to be happening with William winters Tyson Adams and Rebecca Farrar. And I'm going to have them each introduce themselves and talk about why they are here today and what the impact and experience of watching the one taste documentary orgasm Inc on Netflix was for them. And we're going to be having a conversation about the difference between cults and communities how to identify what you may be finding yourself and or how to find communities that feel fulfilling that are sex positive, and what to look out for. So welcome. Would you like to start with William? Sure. My name is William winters. And I am the founder of benevolent at work which is an online community rooted in real world and virtual events where people can learn together and also from one another, about sexuality, pleasure and relationships. We bring people together for events ranging from online book clubs, to in person virtual meetups to big parties, and retreats and picnics. But you know, the point is that we're trying to build a real sense of community among people who identify as non monogamous of some type endorse a positive. So that's, that's what I am up to you. And that's what brings me to the conversation. Thank you. How about you, Rebecca? So my name is Rebecca Farrar. And I have a business called lab Witch of the West, and I'm a writer and mostly a full time astrologer. But I feel like my context of this conversation is so much around my experience of Washington, one taste documentary and being involved in the community for about six years, and really kind of trying on the ways that that, that that shaped me and even shaped the direction my business has gone, as well. So it's certainly still had its influence. Tyson. Yeah, my name is Tyson Adams, I run a men's group here in San Diego. And it is focused around sexual intelligence, I work with two different types of men, I work with men who are going through struggles within sexuality, meaning that they're either addicted to pornography, or addicted, in some form of sexual addiction. And I also work with women as well. That's an interesting one, because, you know, just in general, working with men, and now bridging that gap and working with women, a lot of the women that come to me have gone through a lot of sexual trauma and things of that nature. I also work with men, who are maybe a little bit further along in their stage of development, and maybe are now looking to learn energy practices on how to transmute sexual energy, and move those to the, through the centers of the body and transmute that into other forms of energy. So, yeah, I'm excited to be here. And the main reason why I'm excited is because I study colts, I watch all the cool documentaries, I read all the books, my mentor, Jamie Weil, he's an anthropologist who studies cold and cold behavior. He was a speaker at one taste, and realize that something was not not okay there and left that and has very strong opinions about it as well. So yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation and see where it goes. Yeah, I want to acknowledge that everyone's gonna have different experiences. And there are some really positive things that some people have gotten from one taste, and then there are a lot of stories that suggest otherwise and you know, and so I just want to let there be room for anything that people have have experienced and know that this is someone's individual experience. We're not speaking for everyone. You know the topic of cults, as you kind of pointed to Tyson, there's so many documentaries out there, especially on Netflix, there's a lot happening. And then there's a lot happening in the news with Scientology and Q anon. And there's so much polarity right now, a polarization of people's experiences. And when you're in a religious community, or you're in a cult, or whatever it is, like, this is what you believe. And this is what you see. And it feels so real and so true to you. And I'm so curious about even if somebody finds themselves in anyone can speak to this, like if somebody finds themselves in a, in a community or a cult. And they suddenly go, wait, this doesn't feel right, how do they extricate themselves from that? You know, especially if there's such a strong sense of belonging and a belief system that's shaping them into, you know, being part of a certain world, and then how do they actually leave that? And if you have any thoughts about that? Well, I think the first thing that came to mind is it really depends on how deep you're in. Right? I think, for me why one taste maybe wasn't as traumatic as it has been for other people is that I somehow did maintain a certain level of distance that even though I was involved, I wasn't spending a lot of close time with the people who were running it. I was like, casual acquaintances with most of the people there, rather than like, really connected. And so for me, I think there's these different levels of involvement in any community, that kind of dictate the ease of whether or not you're able to kind of come and go. So I feel like what you're speaking to you though, is when people are really like, fully, it's like their whole community, their whole friend group, their identity. Is that more of what you're? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, and also this, I was watching Holy hell, I don't know if you guys have seen that documentary about what does it Boucherville it was a cult. And it's the people were weeping, even though they know that the leader was regularly raping a number of the members of the community. There was so much grief and losing their family, when when they left and took a stand against being part of that community. Tyson, what have you discovered in your reading and studying around colds? Yeah, I mean, I was I was sort of introduced to cults in a unique way, which was that I joined a men's group while I was in a men's circle six years ago. And coming through that particular experience, the actual person that was leading this had ran a cult from 25 years prior. And he was also a part of the Osho. Colts, that whole movement, while about country if you've seen that documentary. And so, on one hand, you know, he had done his work and come a therapist and was doing work for 25 years, but then there was this dark underbelly. And that had not been addressed, even though he had publicly come out and written about it, it actually hadn't been cleaned up, meaning you hadn't really acknowledged his behavior from his past. And so people from the actual cult from 25 years ago started reaching out to me. And I was kind of in that brainwash state, which was this person's Great. What are you talking about, I don't need to address this. And when I finally got myself out of my own way, and actually started to listen, I realized there was actually no accountability, no cleanup. And one of the things that was used in this particular way of working within men's work was sort of weaponizing status and catharsis against people. So basically, getting them into wild states, where you're screaming, crying, grieving, crying, whatever it is. And then when you're in that state, and you come through that, well, here's the next level, you know, it's $10,000 for the program, and while you're in the middle of your experience, and you're all emotional, taking another financial leap to the next thing, you know, so that is really important what I do, which is, yes, of course, I do embodiment work. And I do work with men in these sorts of ways. But there is no upselling in the moment of some sort of experience that is like a no no when it comes to this stuff. So when I look at one taste, and I look at what I've gone through, I can see a very clear line where these culty behaviors get weaponized in business, whether it's breathwork, or, you know, orgasmic meditation, or whatever, and you've now just been clicked on and hey, we need your credit card now. And you're very susceptible in those particular moments to just be like, Sure, here you go. And you know, and so these, these colts have become businesses now. And so that's what really draws me into this way of being because with that particular community, which was up in Ashland, there wasn't a coal, like he wasn't doing a commune style coat like he did 25 years ago, it was a cleaner coal. Everybody comes in, you do this work, you go home, but there was still a coal, right? So it's important to understand there's different types of culty behavior. Yeah, so that's kind of my introduction. And then I've kind of been on that for six years, just studying it and deeply understanding it and understanding how it happens and why. I saw you nodding and smiling. William, was there something that you wanted to add to that? Well, the thing that comes to mind is the idea of consent, right? Like we talk about it a lot in bubble network. It's one of our foundational principles as a community. And, you know, one of the finer points of consent that we tend to teach our members is that escalating in the middle of it intense experience is real or consent practice because like people are going to be like, Hi functionally on their own like endorphins and dopamine, and then just like a lot more susceptible to like, saying yes to things that they haven't actually, like, actually check in with themselves on figuring out like, am I actually a yes to this. And so something about like PVA of, of good business practices, ethical business practice, also being aligned with like, good interpersonal practice, and like behaving conceptually, that just came up for me in that moment. Mm hmm. And your your your big nod there, Rebecca? Yeah, I just think when you're talking about that, and sensuality, I think that what was actually what was so tricky for me about one case is that it's this practice that seems really consensual, and it is consensual. And at the same time, there's all these other weird boundary things that don't feel consensual happening simultaneously. And that was the distance I think I kept feeling in my nervous system is there's the verbal consent. But the the nervous systems in the room, or actually, maybe not in that same space. And so I think that's an interesting conversation around consent of where is it that people are verbalizing it? It's an intellectual logical consent versus the body being a no. Right? And where's the space for those two to kind of be at odds with each other? And how is that handled when you're in a room with people having to navigate it? Well, what what comes up for me was this visual of even a bunch of teenagers, you know, like, maybe a joint is being passed around, or any kind of situation where there's peer pressure, because you want to belong, and as herd animals as pack animals we naturally want to be part of, and to then feel like, there's an automatic yes, that may occur. But what is your body actually saying, and you actually have to be connected to your body to begin with to even know what is an authentic? Yes. Right. I think a piece of that then is where are the situations where in some ways they don't want you to be connected to your body to be able to make those decisions? You know, that the tricky? Exactly, yeah, that in one toast, there was the listen to your pussy was one of the refrains like listen to your pussy, listen, your pussy, and it's like, letting that guide you. But what about the rest of you? Yeah. Right. Where is their disconnection from heart? Where's their disconnection from head? Yeah, what comes up for me around that is, you know, what, a child or a teenager, you know, if it's a if it's a woman, let's say it's a young girl, she gets abused, her body's gonna respond in a particular way, meaning that the actual, the fluids of the body are going to produce right. So that message listen to your pussy. It's like, Well, if your pussy gets wet, then obviously that's it. Yes. And it's just like, No, you're your body's going to do what it's going to do. That has nothing to do with whether you consent to wanting to do that behavior or not. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. What gets very confusing, in particular with child sexual abuse is, is that you can have an orgasm, or you can get an erection, your body, your physiology can respond to something to stimulation, but it doesn't necessarily mean consent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just in deep agreement with what you said. Yeah, the idea of like discord arousal, where our bodies are just doing what they're doing to like, take care of us in the moment, you know, so that like, there is like something we can like, hold on to on the other side of like, otherwise a horrific experience or experience, it might like damage us if like, there isn't lubrication, for instance, you know, it's, you know, yeah, I mean, that is just our bodies, doing what bodies do as y'all said, abusing, you know, our COC as the only guide or her policy. Has he hoped the guide just doesn't work. really make a lot of sense. I mean, you know, perhaps, yes, perhaps there are circumstances in which like, that is like useful information that's being added to like, all the rest of these foot formation you're collecting with your other senses, William and I watched the one taste documentary with a group of people that came together to support one person who had been in that community who didn't want to watch it by herself. And so it was a profound experience to watch it as a group and then to have a conversation afterwards. And so this podcast dialogue is born out of really wanting the dialogue that that I'd had with a group of people to be shared publicly, and want other people to have that experience as well. And so I'm curious to hear more about what was it like for you? Because I know for instance, Tyson, you weren't part of the community? What was it like for you to watch it? What do you what did you feel? What did you experience? What? So my experience watching the documentary was interesting, because I'd rather I'd watched the Jeffrey Epstein documentary, which was really a man who was grooming these young girls. And then he had a woman accomplice. And then the way that she described her story was so interesting, because it was her father, who was the abuser, and she was the accomplice, bringing in, you know, young girls to him is the way that she described it in the documentary. So, in the sense, you know, he or she is is a woman in sort of sexual empowerment position, which is why I think that that thing happened, why one case happened, because it was a woman there instead of a man. And I think that I didn't know that I didn't realize that it was a a woman founder. And I can see why it went so far and so fast, because of that particular dynamic. But at the end of the day, what I see is that she hadn't fully moved through her own shit around whatever transpired in her life. And she bypassed it by saying, Oh, you cannot be raped if you surrender and submit 100% to that predator coming at you, like that freaked me out, because, to me, that was her way of describing what she was either taught or what either she had experienced herself. And that was like, where I was like, Whoa, yeah, ik oh my gosh, and my body like kind of started having these weird shakes as I was metabolizing the energy of what that was like for her as a little girl, but then also just how she rationalized it and turned it into what she turned it into. So that was the part that really got me the most, and then how it morphed into the occult, and the dark magic, and all of these other things was indicative of where Scientology and occultism kind of hit America at the same time in the 1900s. And that was kind of like, just ritualistic abuse was really scary. And so that was what came up for me watching it. Looks like you're thinking hard, Rebecca. Yeah, I think it's just the same part that Tyson wrenching, definitely got me but I feel like the second I saw, it's like, I logged in, and then suddenly was the trailer and I just felt so unprepared just kind of like it was an immediate my whole body just kind of was like, what someone made a movie about this. And I'm like, seeing people I know, in the trailer, and I'm seeing the back of my head at a lecture and and just kind of sitting there in shock. And I remember just like, closing the computer right away be like, I can't, I don't think I realized how much was like still in my body around the experience until until that happened. And then I remember closing laptop and then just like kind of meditating for a few minutes coming back to myself, like okay, like, I'm gonna watch this movie right now. And I'm just gonna see what happens that I just kind of sat there a bit in shock around the things that were happening in the background that like I could feel I wasn't necessarily right in there. Like I wasn't at some of those rituals. I wasn't at a lot of those trainings where she was talking about rate those were not the conversation that I was at, I was at like, a lot like the week we lectures where she wasn't going into that sort of territory. I remember one in particular where it was just packed you know, there's like hundreds of people in a space and she was talking about like, the beauty of monogamy and why monogamy so hard is because you have to make a flower beautiful every single day. And I remember just being like, oh my god, like she gets it and so I had a I think just a roller coaster, that entire documentary and then getting done watching it and just journaling for an hour and then writing a blog post about it because I still just didn't know what else to kind of do with the EQ, but also how to really try to integrate the iPod, so many great things from one taste. And I, I'm really working hard on myself not to, to split. You know, like, that's still the journey I'm on is like, I can't just let it as like a call and something bad. And I can't just think of it as something that was really amazing. And so yeah, just holding that complexity is just such a, I think, a moment by moment, practice, still want to taste? Absolutely, I think I think he's saying that is super important. And would you be comfortable sharing some of the benefits some of the things that drew you in? And had you stay for six years? Yeah, I mean, I get so lit up, even when you just mentioned that, Oh, my God, just thinking about the woman I was during those years. I think the biggest thing is that as someone who is a victim of sexual assault and sexual trauma, you know, when I first started, there was something around getting to receive pleasure that just felt like so wrong. You know, I think sexuality for me was so much oriented around the keeping a man happy and making them feel good. And so the fact that I took a class, and I just thought to be pleasure, that I would have these men coming up to ask me to pleasure muse. Wow, this is so new. And I remember just crying at every break during the first class I took with them. I mean, that was like 12 years ago, and just sobbing every break and like not really understanding why. And then I remember when I first started doing the practice, I have this amazing, I have two really amazing memory. The first one is I walked out of oming for the first time, and I was walking down the street, and this man just jumps out of coffee shop. And it's like, Hey, do you want to do you want to free coffee? Come on in. And I was like, Sure, why not. And I just got a free coffee. And I found $10 on the ground. And then I walked into this place where my boyfriend at the time was working. And I walked in and he did it and stamp in the middle of where he was working just there was something about energetically I was like so kind of this like powerful whirlwind. I like shocked him or something. It was so bizarre, I still don't understand what happened. I remember other moments where I would aim my hands at something and I would like Spark electrical lines or like the energy that would move through it that sort of a practice I just had never felt before. And my usual kind of wishy washy, like, I don't know what I won. I don't know what I'm meeting after I would own there was there was no codependent wishy washy was always someone asked me something, I knew exactly what I wanted. I knew I was just in the flow state. A lot of time and so yeah, it's a long answer. But I think for me, the biggest part I got was like embodying my power in a different way, and really filling the parts of me that no, he's like, mode of operation has often been to just not know, and not be comfortable knowing and want not to know. Well, and so that, you know that, that permission to be powerful, that encouragement to be powerful as a woman in the world, and getting to experience the impact of your presence. That's what I heard, you know, it's like, Oh, you're so energetically powerful. And that way, is very seductive. And that's a positive thing. And it's really hard because you're like, oh, this practice, this is a great practice. And it doesn't mean that everything in a community or the leadership, right? And it's like, how much of it is it? Is it like we're going to pull you in and this is actually is very visible in the holy hell documentary. So seduce you in and enhance your, your power, but then what gets taken, you know, after that, and then and where do you get trapped because you don't want to give up the good. But then you have to take the bad and it's, you know, just in any kind of abusive relationship, or even as a child being beaten or abused, you're still loyal and want to be connected to your family, you want to be taken from your home. Right? So there's a tricky setup. It's not black or white. Yeah, it takes me that, you know, most tools on the record, but I think most tools are, like, morally neutral. Like, in the right hands, or like, in the face of sufficient inquiry, we can get a lot just like figuring figuring out like, Yeah, I'm experiencing omitting or like I'm in this like, really intense, like, sexual community environment or, you know, I'm like doing Holotropic breathwork or I'm like doing Ayahuasca like what's here, you know, and like, like facing those intense experiences. These tools with curiosity here can just be like so rewarding and so informative and so powerful. And then, like, in the wrong hands, a crypto these tools can be extremely dangerous, you know, any hammer or screwdriver you can be a murder weapon. I knew people who were involved with the practice of Omi who are like doing the practice of oming inside of another community, the Lafayette, Morehouse world, you know, and never entered one taste. I know that like, there are some people who think that the Lafayette Morehouse is a cult, you know, as well, I think I have not heard the same kinds of stories from its members, you know, about like manipulation, and so on. Like in the face of these tools in this, like other organizations, I'm sure other people might come forward and say otherwise, I'm just like, in my world in the Bay Area, that hasn't come to me. Yeah. Charna, you also watched the documentary and I think you were actually you went to a few meetings. Is that right? I'm curious what your experience was, if you'd like to share a little bit about your personal journey and how the movie affected you? Yeah. So I actually they had just formed, they're just setting up their original space. I think it's like 2004 baby do that. But you know, it was very early on, when I was part of that community. And I went to a number of meetings. And one of the most powerful experiences I had was in witnessing and what they do is an hour long orgasm demonstration. And so there's a woman up there and there's someone who's who's filming her and conducting the energy and I was sitting in the front row and my whole body, I went into a convulsive involuntary, crying orgasmic state. And you know, so everything was kind of like squeezing and unfolding in and like, convulsing shaking, right. And Nicole came over, and she was helping to kind of like, round out my body. And I'd had enough somatic experience and trauma release body work to have some understanding and context for what could be happening. And afterwards, I shared that I felt like I had given birth and that I had been born at the same time. And her and this other guy, I think it may have been Robert Kendall. Like, they functioned almost like this kind of Mother Father imprint, where they were holding me and I felt kind of like I was a baby in this way. And there's this, this overwhelming, my system was kind of in shock from the amount of energy running through my system, but like, Oh, my God, like, I want more of this, I didn't have that, right, I didn't have that imprint of like a mother and a father, a unified family that welcomed me into the world, so to speak. So I could see how seductive that was. And I was like, oh, I want more of this. And then, you know, the calming practice, and, and then I also witnessed, and as I was already seeing clients as just somatic coach, but I had trained a lot in working with trauma and had healed my own. And I saw reenactments and retraumatization of people that were participating in the group and this pressure to participate and override what may have been happening, like, Oh, it's just reactivity. And that ignited the part of me that gets very protective of people. There's always kind of watching the authority figure for for how are they handling and how are they protecting people. And so I took this one woman who was going through a whole trauma response and, and held her and, you know, I was with her, and helping her move that experience through and I just, that was a turning point for me. You know, that was a turning point for for, for seeing that they were not encouraging and listening to people's boundaries. But it was just like, if you have any boundary, it's read as resistance. And that, to me was very problematic. And since you know, my feeling is really, I've witnessed such a range of what people are severely blown out by their experiences, like almost shells of themselves afterwards, like they can eyes super dissociated, right? And unable to even articulate their experience, but I can see they're in their bodies, right. I know, I read people for the last 20 years I've been, you know, I've worked with people around trauma and sexuality. And so what I want to say about that kind of lost my train of thought, I think I started I started to feel into that fakeness and I guys dissociated myself, when you see that there is a lack of consent in that body. And in that being right, and there still hasn't been a reconnection to Earth and who knows how people came to the groups how much vulnerability they were in when they came to one taste, right? Like how fragmented their their systems already were, and how vulnerable they already were. But what I think is very problematic, is that there's no assessment. Like if someone goes to a A guy a medicine guy and says, I want to do this practice, they get assessed, like, is this good for you individually, versus if you're focused on sales and focused on how much money you can make in a community, you're not really being selective about who you let in. And there should never in my belief, I don't believe in Dogma, right? I don't believe in one size fits all, whether it's a diet, whether it's yoga, or whether it's a sex practice, there, there's always a need for nuance, and in different stages of healing call for different practices. And so for there to just be like, This is what we're all doing. Doesn't take into consideration the individual. And that is my primary concern. And there was no responsibility taken there. From what I can see. That was my long winded answer. Yeah. I'll just speak to the hollowness, eyes. Yeah. I went to I was in India for about eight weeks. And I went to Pune where the Osho cult started. And I didn't go in, but I just hung out outside in the bookstore and in the cafe, and you know, they're all garbed up, and they walk in, and it's that same look that you're talking about, you look at their eyes, and you're just like, Whoa, what the hell is going on? Like, I can't locate you, and you can't, you're not seeing me unless I'm wearing the same clothes as you. And it's this weird, fake smile where something's not quite right. You know. And so then when I watched wild, wild country, I was like, Oh, here we go, you get all these wild sex parties, basically, trauma, bonding with sex, and then you got that family connection. And then now we're all bonded, energetically speaking, and we're all interwoven. So now we have family, and then you're easily easy to manipulate, and you're very malleable as a group, when you're in those ways of being and when you had the most extensive and catharsis experiences you've ever had. And now you're, you're ready to follow, follow the rules and, and do whatever. So I see, like what you saw, I saw also, first hand being kind of inside of it, but not in it, and you had to take an HIV test to go in and pay like 200 some dollars just for just to take a peek, you know, and I was like, screw that. I'm not going in that place. Wow. Yeah. I know, someone who, who, uh, during COVID ended up stuck in the Osho retreat in in India. And it was an invisible, it was totally revolutionary for him, right. Like, it totally changed his path. And it was a very positive experience. And so, you know, it's, I really, I do think that there's something about who do we come into a community as, that can make it something that were really vulnerable to? Or it can, you know, we can take some positive things like, I love the oming practice, I'm like, can do the practice, like, Bring it on? Like, that's great practice. I've taught partners how to do it. But again, different from the leadership at which I really do want to talk about that, and different than, like, what are the community rules or agreements that are spoken or unspoken? You know, none of you can see who I'm looking at. But I was just looking at William, who was nodding, yeah. Yeah, I mean, the thing that you said about what the community walls and agreements are really, like, really stood out to me, you know, that, like, I recognize that like, with, but it will not work, the organization, but I found that like, people have just like powerful, life changing socially mediated experiences all the time. And as a result, there is a lot of, like, very dangerous potential for us to like, fuck it up, you know, just like to just like, harm people, or set people up for harming themselves or one another, that we're just like, constantly trying to figure out like, how can we like how can we as a community, not only like, can I just like as a container, take more responsibility for orient towards taking more responsibility? And then how can we also empower our members and like, encourage our members to also be like, taking on responsibility for one another, and not just their own experiences? You know, to that end, I mean, we've done a fair amount of work, developing policies, that email hold, that hold our members accountable to like a certain set of like principles and guidelines, and that also like, hold us as organizers to those same rules and standards, you know, so I like the way that bonobo was set up and played up in a while because I was like my closest, you know, organizational affiliation right now, like we actually have, like an outside, like ombudsman, who is able to receive, like incident reports, you know, about, like me and Misha my business partner. So that like, if people think that like, we are behaving unconventionally, or like violating the sort of standards of spirit of the community, like, there is like an outside person who can like, either mediate the speeds, or in the case of like, you know, more serious allegations, such as a consent violation, like actually, like, institute a set of procedures that involves, like, you know, one or the other of us, like, walking away from the organization for some time and, like, completely and accountability of public accountability process, and, you know, like, that kind of thing. And, and, like, we we do that, because, like, we want to model the kind of accountability that we hope that, like, members of the community will also take and are expected to take, like, when they harm one another, you know, what harm, you know, inevitably happens, because we're people and what we do to each other sometimes, yeah, so, you know, what, I was watching the one taste documentary, I was just like, so taken aback in some ways, and I realized that like, the sort of the extent to which we, like the commonly held understanding about some of the social technologies and accountability have evolved since the like, early and mid ot Slin. One taste was the essence of all being but like, yeah, I was just kind of like, wow, like, here is a person looking at Nicole, who is just like, completely on accountable, you know, and like, there's no one who can or is willing to hold this person accountable, like not her business partners, not, you know, the students, you know, like, though, it seemed like, the only possibility for people who, like wanted, like, redress of harm was to like, leave the community, let's pass. So the bill would shut you down, hoping that maybe Rebecca or China, you can speak to the reality of, or, you know, add complexity to that, like, observation. Yeah, I, it's funny, because at the time, I don't think I realized, just like how no one was holding her accountable. Right, because at the time, I was just so kind of magnetized into her power, and beauty and just everything. But I was interesting when we were speaking about the different documentaries on cults, and I think in almost all of those, there was also conversation around, sometimes cult leaders having people marry each other, and setting up marriages. And I remember that was the moment where suddenly I was like, something is really weird here because couples started getting married. In one case, people who worked in one case together, started getting married and coupling off as like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, where did this come from? And it was obvious, it seems kind of arranged. There would be like, people who, you know, who are both like high up in one taste. And I'm, I'm, I don't think any of them are still married. I'm like, 99% Sure. But that strange accountability, where suddenly Nicole is also dictating a whole life. Yeah, marriage and people. And that was the point where I was like, Whoa, no one's watching this. There's some within the documentary who said something like Nicole gets off on seeing what she can get people to do. And it just took me back to a story. Like I know, a bunch of people, mostly men who lived in the original 1k storm, and they would like, tell me these, like, horror stories about how Nikola be like, You know what, I think that like, your partner is just like, with photo and you know, like, because everyone's like, slept in the same space. Like, if you wanted to be at home, you'd have to be exposed to like, this, like, extremely like triggering thing and like people would like inevitably like, just like, say yes to the, you know, very strong suggestion that like people do people like sleep with each other or like practice with one another or whatever. And, yeah, I mean, it. Again, I mean, like that, that speaks to, like, lack of accountability. And, you know, I, I don't know. I mean, again, I was not deeply involved. In one case, I had like my run ins and of course, I know a lot Have people who were involved with one taste that documentary was going to have, like, my early time in the Bay Area? Yeah, it was like, like hearing those things like, like, this person just really wants to see like, what she can get away with. And then or what you can get people to do. And then, like, hearing those stories, like, yeah, there's like no accountability here. When I was part of the community, there was somebody that would had been living in the house and who was leaving. And it really helped me get some clarity around whether I wanted to leave or not. And this person had a fiance, and they were living together in the house. And he was like, This doesn't feel right, I really feel like we need to leave. And so he was moving out. And Nicole made it a thing of like him or me. And so while they were such, they were so close this woman and Nicole, you know, it was it was it was like, Are you kidding me? You're gonna make me choose between your friendship and this community and my fiance, right? So while there wasn't a forced marriage there, it's like the opposite, you know, and it feels like there's so much reenactment of childhood trauma, and I don't know what was happening with her parents, but the stuff around, you know, a brother who's abusing their sibling, or what a father or mother who's abusing their child will do in terms of, there's a power play there, right? What can I get you to do? Because you still want my love, and you still want to be connected to me. And so I think that that's what gets really hooked in people. Right? Is childhood patterns of having to make those hard choices? Yeah. You know, and it's kind of like the bread crumbing, like, give them a nice nav, and then take, you know, and then do this other thing, and then see how they respond. And do you know, the frog is boiling slowly in a pot. I'm curious. So one of the themes that seems to happen, whether it's a spiritual community, a sexual community, or a cult is that there's people are seeking something that they feel like they're wrong in some way. They're there. They're odd, in some way, that there's something that dominant culture is not serving them. It's not, it's not providing them, they feel like an outsider. And so then suddenly, they find a community where they can fit and be accepted. And so what do you if anybody wants to speak to that, in terms of you know, Rebecca, if you want to say any more about like, what drew you in what you were seeking, if you even knew what you were seeking? Yeah, I think what's important to name is I tend to be somebody who gets pulled into these kind of questionable communities. And I think with one taste, it's funny because for me, it's not actually a sense of belonging, like I feel like what I love is I love having these different groups of people I can kind of pop in and out of and I liked one taste because I didn't feel like they needed me to be super committed, I would disappear for like, a few months, and people would be happy to see me when I got back. But I wasn't involved in the same way where belonging was my motivation. For me, it feels like I what I'm doing is I'm pedestal icing, the desire to pedestal is someone who knows more. That is more of my pull into communities in spiritual communities. Like I've been in ashrams and even like, landmark education, for me the questionable cult energy, when I was there is that, yeah, my motivation has been someone else knows what to do when someone else has the answers. And that's my poll in it's not belonging, or where I was because for me community is something that built over time through repair and rupture. And I that for me, wasn't something I wanted to do that with my friends. I didn't want to do that in a group of people that I didn't know that well, where there was someone you're learning from. I love that last piece of you're saying about repair and rupture being an essential part of the development of community. And that how that ties back to what William you've created, like a distinction there around accountability. And an even you being accountable, not just the people in this community being in bonobo being accountable, and how the amount of safety that gets created inside of that. That's lovely. Yeah, not to ever say that. We create safety or like safe spaces feels like another opportunity to like pet a slice and to like, push off the responsibility for taking care of themselves. I mean, yeah, there's like this duality, right? Like, like people are, I mean, yes. Like, the definition of a community that I love the most is like, it's different from a group in that, like, in a community, you can kind of have the expectation that when things go wrong, people are gonna have your back to a certain extent, but like, at the same time, like there's also this like real individual responsibility to like, use your discernment to like, take a cut, take care of yourself and like They can make the choices and be familiar with their own boundaries and like doing the real work of like self discovery. And so it's like really, really hard because I know that like, you know, we're creating what I think of as, like, a safer community in the sense that, you know, like we have seen, like, we can't ever guarantee that like nothing's going to happen or, or that there will be like, no STI transmission or whatever. But we can like manage risks in certain ways. And I feel like that's what we try to do. Like, I'm always trying to do my best to like, take myself off of the pedestal that people sometimes want to put me on, while also recognizing them no matter what I do. I'm always so common, you know? Well, there's a power thing you're recognizing power differential, right? Yeah. So Jimmy, we all wrote this book, recapture the rapture, rethinking God's sex and death in a world that's lost its mind. And he says, There are countless justifications, many of them unique to each person for trying to fill the God shaped hole in their hearts, or the mommy or daddy shaped hole, or whichever hole they're trying to fill. But there's a more fundamental reason, we're tribal primates wired to seek the silverback among us. So he goes on to talk about Alpha monkeys, and how that basically plays out in sort of these cult dynamics. But he has this really cool thing called the interoception of affective resonance. So basically, when you have somebody who's in a Silverback position, we either want to do one of the four things, we either want to follow them, fear them, fight them, or fuck them. And so his point is, is to be in the middle and to feel and to be in the middle of those four quadrants and to be in the middle and just be with the felt sense of it. And then interoception, which is a tuning to your gut, and knowing what's the appropriate response in any circumstance, where you do have a Silverback, who's leading a particular whatever community will call it, you know, and he talks in this book about what is ethical culture building. So ethical code building versus culty. Colts, you know, how to do it in a way that's effective, so that people actually can make the world a better place as opposed to just bowing down to somebody who's taking every everything and using other people as a means to an end. So, so, so I got to four out of about 20 questions. And there's so much more that I, you know, I wanted to talk with, with all of you about the role that vocabulary and jargon play in cult and community about power about what sociopathy is, and leadership, like how to identify that and you know, and what are the green and red flags? And so if there's an interest in continuing this conversation, this can be part one of a two part episode. And so I will leave that up to you to to consider and then let me know, and thank you so much for your time, and I'm gonna then if you have time, Rebecca, and if you don't, I totally understand, just say where each of you can be found on social media. Yeah, so my main group is on Instagram with wild Witch of the West and Tyson and William, where can we find you? Yeah, you can find me just at Tyson Adams, and then your score on Instagram or Facebook. And you can find me at bonobo Or at bonobo network on Instagram or our underutilized Twitter account. Thank you. Thank you so much for your wisdom and life experience and willingness to have this conversation. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for facilitating, and it was so nice to meet both of you too, and just hear the different experiences of communities but also not being in the one taste and the overlap that was really helpful for me. In order to support the podcast, I've started a Patreon. If you're like me and new to Patreon, it is an opportunity to give back to a person or show that you feel has contributed to your life, wellness and growing wisdom. Today I'm asking you if you feel my existence and the work I do in the world makes a difference. Please show me a tangible offer of your support back. The more people that join the more exclusive content I'll be adding for members only. You can find my T ar e yo backslash la IDOPNPO de Cast To learn more about how you can support our community. If you found this podcast helpful share it with anyone you can any way you can please rate review and share it with friends so others can find our community of healing. You can also follow me at laid open podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate lifestyle. work until next time may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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