Show Notes
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Today's guest is Sarah Benincasa. She's an author and actress and comedian born and raised in New Jersey and I'm so excited to get to have this conversation welcome Sarah
life is about to
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trauma extension
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the deciders calm
Hi.
I made it through the holidays.
made it happen. Thank you so much for having me. I was just listening to your episode with Julia Logan was really fun. And I didn't get to hear all of it yet. But I really liked her. And I really liked her approach to astrology and just I really, we I love your speaking voice. And I love her speaking voice too. So it was just really pleasant to listen. It's it's remarkable what a difference that can make. Thank you for saying that. All of that I was talking with a client yesterday about this evolution of sensitivity. You know that like being in public spaces being, you know, at a restaurant and noise. And for me even speaking to someone on the phone, who uses your earbuds pick up every single sound and I'm like, Are you chewing on gravel? What is happening? Like, my whole body is like,
I feel like I have these bionic ears. And so the fact that my voice could be pleasant to listen to makes me really happy.
You're You are most welcome. And yeah, the sensitivity to sound is really interesting. I have one of my nephews is autistic, and he's five years old. And she is mom's a special education teacher for pre K. So she is uniquely suited to serve his needs in various ways. And so many parents become advocates for their children and have to educate themselves on the fly. And she has the good experience of being on sort of both sides of the table during putting together a child's IEP and, and their educational plan. And he has really high sensitivity to certain sounds. And it's interesting, because I think that my, my dad does as well. And I, at some point developed as some sort of coping strategy. Just like if I'm sitting at a restaurant, and somebody drops
something really loud, right? So because a friend will jump because it's an understandable response to have right loud noise jumping, and I will lock in even deeper to my friend and just not react, which is not great. It's something it's it is like don't react, Everything's fine. Everything's normal. And it's very though Cooper hasn't been like, how did that not startle you? And I just say it did. I just pretended it didn't. I wonder if you don't worry about it.
Like, okay, I love that example. Because it says so much like that. If that was shared in a therapy session in a movie. It would you just get such a good flavor for a character pretty instantly. It's pretty textbook. Yeah, I think all I always sort of laugh about. I think that when I dream, it's very, I've been listening again to Carl Jung's memoir, which he didn't write himself like his secretary did but he you know, obviously, so into dream analysis and one of these things being of course, that was his jam. And so many people have such fascinating people who are really grounded in that
union analysis and the near Union analysis things that's very fascinating to me. But I do think that my dreams are very simple. It's like, Okay, Sarah, you can fly if you believe. And then when you start to doubt yourself, you can't fly anymore. That's the recurring dream. There's not a lot of subject is this. You pretty good. That's hopefully you're believing because dream flying is one of the most fantastic experiences in dreams. I mean, I wish my listeners could see me I raised my eyebrows and I lift up, I just intend my energy to go up. And it's like the goofy. You know, I don't know what is Tinkerbell? Like, Jake. I like leaving in yourself. Yeah, perpetual. I just, I energetically intend energy follows intention, which is a key principle, and it works.
So well. Yeah. Yeah. You changed your Chester and your energy and eyes open wider. And it looks like, yeah, it's a hype. It looks like a hyper arousal response, you know, a freeze response back to the image of you sitting at the table. It's like you had a totally contained freeze response. Right. Everything was happening internally, there's a lot of activity, which no one could necessarily see. And you look like you have this placid effect. Yeah, it's very disconcerting. Sometimes, when we see as they're not familiar with it, because I see it. I mean, I write we tend to
walk, I think you react in similar ways. So I'll notice that somebody when they are the same way, and it just it really tells you a lot about how somebody
learned to survive, or how they felt they needed to behave to survive what they do, what
perhaps what the values were, that the proceeds coming from adults around them, what I picture and there's a quote that I wanted to read from something you wrote, I'm not sure where I found it, but I'm going to make sure everyone else is okay by remaining calm and not having a reaction, right? Like, I'm going to take care of the rest of the restaurant. And my friend, by not reacting. Right? It is very much like when you're with a child and they fall down, and they're reaching out. But also, I don't want to say this solely your okay, because maybe they're out, okay, what I want to do is just be very calm and breath in. How are you doing and check in and sometimes they often meet each other's energy. So sometimes I think, right, like, just as I heard recently, that in some situations
where people are predisposed to it anyway, mania can be contagious, or depression can be contagious. These different things if you're predisposed to it. And I don't know to what extent that's true. But calmness can be contagious, I think.
Well, it's there's a pure and bear ba IR, who's a Sufi meditation teacher has few books that are that I've read that I think are really worth reading. And I think Living from the heart is one and the other is energize your heart. And in energize your heart, one of the things he talks about that's interesting is the strongest heart rate variability in the room is going to impact and control so to speak, the rest of the room. And so, you know, when we talk about someone having good energy, like we're feeling from their heart, there's this energy that emits that's like, kind of like you're, some people would call the aura, or a field around you. And and so, you know, when someone is really anxious, it's like, oh, you feel their anxiety or when someone is deeply grounded in calm.
Similar thing.
And people often want to be around that person. I can earliest I do. Exactly.
And I suppose that aside from the, the kind of instinctive response, I have to just stay. Aside from that response, maybe it's a learned response or something I imitated and that just became muscle memory, but separate from that.
I
love being around people just seem like they're very comfortable in their own skin. And they seem like they're very, maybe maybe we would call it embodied, just very much in touch with their mind, their body, their soul and
not.
They're not performing for me, because when I'm doing that thing, that instinctive thing, yeah, I am performing a bit because I am jarred by the sound but
do stay calm. That won't help other people. Other people don't give a shit. Well, it's interesting because it bleeds into so many questions that I have for you around, you know,
balancing this history of anxiety, and depression and agoraphobia and panic attacks, like all these things that that would typically you might picture someone dealing with all of that and be more like a hermit crab. And yet you have a very public persona, right? doing stand up is probably a lot of people's biggest nightmare to have the pressure to stand on a stage and be funny. Like, I think I'm a pretty funny person, but on the spot and performing anxiety, like, oh my god, like if I was good, if I'm thinking what you know, I have anxiety, what am I gonna go do? Do I want to go do some stuff? Like that's, you know, the antithesis of what would suit my jittery heart. And so I see how you've honed it into a skill, right? Like, I mean, I don't know if that's how you see it. But I could see the connection there. Given that one little anecdote. Yeah, I think I was drawn to stand up comedy, because I wanted to get my writing on stage. I wanted to get my writing in front of people, I wanted people to care about what I wrote. And nobody, when I was in graduate school for education, you know, people, my students cared about what I taught, or they didn't as, as the case may be my colleagues in the graduate program at Teachers College, which was wonderful school up at Columbia, they were awesome people that we were there to learn how to teach. And we were there how to teach. We were there to teach, to share our stories to get our certification. And we weren't there to like, share our writing with one another, even those of us who were focused on creative writing as teachers or perhaps as the as our gig. And so stand up was a way I wasn't getting published anywhere I was trying and standup was a way to set myself apart. And what I found the emotional component of it was that it gave me more confidence. Certainly an ego hit when they laugh. That's a huge, wonderful feeling when the audience laughs. But there are plenty of times we'll be on Instagram lap, and you bomb. And I kept doing it for years, because it ended up bringing me things career wise. But it was also fun. It was fun, because
I got to plan what I wanted to say. So I had some control. I couldn't control what the audience did, but I could control what I gave them. And it was relatively predictable in terms of here's the stage, here are the lights. Here's, you know, there was a structure to it that I appreciated. And I found by contrast, I found improv comedy to be terrifying. I think I took like half a class and looks like I'm done. Because depending on other people that to me is more intimate. Depending on other people and improv comedians, a lot of times will say, Oh, God, den of sounds terrible. With improv, you've got a team and the scene start to fall flat, somebody else helps with it back up. And so for me stand up was a way of First of all, creating a persona that was more palatable than the real me inside to myself. And second of all, it had to do with you know, I think I started backing away from stand up once my writing started going into the world. And once I started going deeper into self exploration and eventually therapy, because stand up
can be therapeutic. does not, does not replay. I mean, it's so funny, because I know we're speaking to each other for an audience, but I'm also sort of laughing, saying, Okay, I'm saying to a therapist, like Yeah, of course, char knows your art doesn't replace the work of therapy in session. Well, it's and you probably don't know this about me, but I used to do monologue and I did a one woman show, oh, man years ago, right. Like, this is I joke that grad school killed my creativity just took all my time and energy, you know, and so I did a one woman show about healing, you know, through somatic working in good vibrations, the Boundary Crossings. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. So the boundary crossing. So what happened with what not they're not my patients or my clients, customers, and how that sparked memories from childhood. And so I would go back and forth in time. And so it was about healing. And my art the audience, some people said they had the experience of healing through the process that like their own healing, and so yes, art 100% Watching a film, going to an art gallery, all of that can absolutely be therapeutic, making art hugely therapeutic. And I think the difference is, and I love the way you described being on stage and having the lights and the stage and having that structure. There's
You know, going to a therapist, there's, there's a container. Yeah, right. There's the room itself. There's the couch, that, you know, people get really attached to the couch, or they're sitting on or that piece of art and you know, your chair being exactly where it always is. And some people call it out if it changes at all. And even like, how you dress like there are all these things that create consistency and stability that we lacked in our own families growing up.
And so having a container in a physical form, in a body or a room, helps people feel held.
That's so beautiful I hadn't ever heard that was really analogous to when I was in,
or when I was teaching in the southwest. And when a teacher would be absent, the students would be really wrong. Especially if it was I noticed, especially if it was one of our men teachers.
Especially with our younger, you know, our students, the boys, particularly I remember a few students who either didn't have a dad at home, or dad was in and out of the picture. I remember I was young I was maybe 2425. And I remember this profound experience of realizing how bro and tough kid like taught like former gangbanger kids who had done time in juvie, that was not all by students, but it was the students who had it. You know, the students whose parents came home the same time every night weren't, didn't seem particularly thrown. But and not all of the students who came from a less stable home life were this way, but I noticed it with a few of them. Some of the most like obstreperous, prone to, you know, prone to challenge kids were the most rode when the younger man teacher wasn't there, or when the older man teacher who they look, that with unusual respect, wasn't there. And then it makes me think about how I noticed when I'm doing therapy on Zoom, and my therapist who I've worked with for
324 years now, for years, how I noticed the artwork on the wall, I noticed what t shirt she's wearing, I noticed how her hair is done. Like I noticed those in different PC. What's fascinating about that, I've had a client who would notice, he's like, You moved your chair.
And I'm like, huh, and I so the first time this happened, it really stayed with me because there's a pattern on the carpet. And he's like, Well, because I normally notice there's this much pattern in front of the legs of your chair.
And he was someone that I really worked with in terms of proximity, and you know, leveling the playing field and power dynamics are really important to him. And so, I would do work sitting next to him, like things shifted in our, in his ability to trust me, because he had a lot of projection on
you know, authority figures and women, not positive authority, you know, projections. And so once I became more real, he was somewhat I really learned being more transparent about my personal life really made a difference in creating trust and safety, as well as sitting next to him. You know, some space but still, versus across can be very intimidating or confrontational for some people. Especially they have experiences with art such as I just thought thought of two things at one. I thought of
two professional experiences. This is so random, they both popped in at the same time. I feel like this whole conversation is I love it. I have all these questions that I like carefully crafted. And I'm like, let's talk about random things, all these random things coming up in my head. So this is our Rando connection. I love it. I will I'm thinking of when I sat across from the school director, when I was in trouble, that's not for anything scary or horrifying. Thank God, but when I was a teacher, and I had just made a mistake, and she was pissed at me, and she was, you know, like professionally coaching me strongly in with very strong words like really him basically handing my asked me it was not like a violation with a student or anything like that. It was just I had fucked up curriculum wise with something. And so thank you for that. And then I was thinking of one I did an episode on lawn Order Special Victims Unit last year, and they have an interrogation set that's set like they have some sets that are just stable that are always there. And so we were in the interrogation room where like character who's an attorney is like finding out
finding out after coming in with a lot of attitude and drive
Actually none of the characters played by Peters Kennedy nor Mariska Hargitay who are always right. And my character does not realize that they're always right because she is a criminal defense attorney and doesn't know that she's on a TV show called SVU, where she's gonna lose always. And so she comes in with a lot of bravado and attitude. And then she and her clients sit down. And she finds out that her client is a very bad man. And I'm thinking of the interrogation room that which is just the very like, in any procedural you've got that interrogation room, right. And then you see it sometimes sometimes on real footage from real interrogation rooms. And then you think about the idea of the high school principal and the teacher. I'm also thinking of a scene I just rewatched that I love, which is the show Flatbush misdemeanors, which I loved. And it's Yamaneika Saunders and Dan Perlman are on one side. And then this panel of evaluators is on the other side, they're evaluating whether Dan's teacher character is allowed to come back after I think he was caught with pills at school or something. Anyway, sorry, I'm talking so fast. But all of those interrogation seats can find some thinking, of course, the client, a therapy client has a negative experience, whether with education with law enforcement, with whoever in that kind of setup, they might have a very strong reaction to sitting in that stereotypical way across from you. They see as the authority figure, they now fucking hate because you're also their high school principal. You're also the cop. They're all you know. Yeah. Can you imagine how dates are for that person? Like, I
always have to sit in restaurant booths. Only maybe like, we're only going to the movies. Exactly. We're gonna go to the movies. We'll talk we'll sit on park benches, maybe? Yeah. So walk and talk a walk and talk hiking, love a walk and talk. Love a chatty Walker. Oh, my gosh, that's so interesting. Yeah, I just went into a into a state of remembering different things from real life and from movies. And yeah, your anecdote, maybe you don't?
Like, what's funny is you going into these different flashes of the scenes from your life. And then we started talking about dreams. And for me, a safe place when I was a kid was my closet.
I used to there was a lock from the inside, I slept on a foldup futon, this like thin little piece of foam, and I used to put it in the closet. And I would like, I would lock it and I would sleep in the closet. And so for years, even probably in the last couple years, I still had one of these, I used to have a reoccurring dream about that closet. Even my adult clothes would be in that closet. But this. So I just it's funny, because the way that our conversation is going feels like this funny. Dream space. Yeah, we're like in the closet together talking about threads. And then the water pushes us in this direction. And we're talking about this. When I got moved into this place that I'm in. I don't have a walk in closet, but I have a closet that stores a lot of stuff, which is very nice and not always the way in New York City. And I know that sometimes folks in Europe will crack up about that note. Yeah, we a lot of times we don't have a built in closet flip.
And I'm like, wow, you don't what's that like? But to me, it's a big deal in New York to have a decent amount of closet space when I was first thinking Lester's moving into this place in 2021. Part of me have this vision of okay, I've got this closet. It's not a walk in closet, but maybe I could put a like a bench in there and painted black or dark blue and put well in the dark stars. And since I can just go in there and zone out. And because I you know I have agoraphobia and which is fear of the marketplace in Greek and a fear of travel and being outside one safe space. So some people go oh, is that the opposite of claustrophobia? And I go away, sir, but I can see how you think that that makes sense. Maybe on a very in a very broad strokes. One could say that but I do often find if I'm going into a small space by choice, I often find it very enveloping and nurturing home like and it's the weighted blanket principle. You know, it's very cozy and I originally rented a condo that was about 1500 square feet which is about about three times the size my place yeah huge and fell huge and my sister in law observed that I'm mostly occupied about she's like you do most of your living in about a third of this place. You don't really visit the other rooms that much like and it's true. I think that I am somebody who
does very well. When it's by choice, of course I can put that in there with small space, smaller space living. Yeah, totally. I can appreciate that as well, rather than tell a story about my small living spaces. I want to ask you the question. Yes. Let's get to your question. Right there, Gordon. Yeah. So around the agoraphobia.
I have a number of questions. But the first being, what, when did that develop for you? What was if there was a precipitating event that started it? And then how are you coping with it today? Well, it started when I was very small. And part of it was to learn. And part of it was I mean, who knows how much is genetic and how much is learned. Certainly, some of it was learned, right? I remember when may almost 11 years ago, I did Marc Maron podcast. And I remember Mark saying, family of origin matters, because at that time, I was so low. That was when my first book came out agora fabulous dispatches from my bedroom. And I was so low to talk about complex experiences with my parents, because I was afraid they would be angry. And I was afraid of blowback that I was just like, very much like, Well, I think I just inherited this, you know, like biologically, right, so publicly. And so I, you know, and Mark, like, is a great interviewer. And he walks around in your head, and he he was not letting me off the hook with that when he was like, What are you joking? And it was great. And I told him years later, I was like, No, you're fucking right. Thank you. Because I was with, because I was still doing stand up pretty actively, for a few years after that. And I had developed this one woman show about agoraphobia. And that was very much a way to sell a book, The look proposal to get editors in the teeth anyway. So I had taken my experience, and really kind of rounded the edges of it, because I didn't want to hurt my parents. And I also did not want to hurt myself. So I changed certainly altered some details to protect various people, which was correct within myself. But the truth is that, you know, I grew up with a dad deals with agoraphobia and panic attacks, and anxiety. And I don't feel bad saying that, because in the years since he said to me, you can write whatever you want to about me, I don't care if it's true. Yeah. And I was like, Damn do. And then, you know, with my mother, she is more inclined to privacy, but she deals with her own stuff. And so you know, I come from a household, you put all four of us together, and you my brother, my mom, my dad, you know, we all carry a lot of a
lot of mental health diagnoses. They're everywhere I went to see when I was suicidal, or it's like the first time the first time
when I dropped out of college, because I was so by that point, the agoraphobia the panic attack from traveling had come to such a place that I was just restricted to my bedroom pretty much and like defecating and urinating in my bedroom. And even you know, even in the book, I said, like, now that there was a lot, listen, listen, listeners, if you came here to hear deprecation story, not too bad. But I, you know, there's a chapter in my book called Bowles p where I talk about that I don't, there were a few other moments, but generally, it was mainly P oriented. But But like, you know, the reason I share that is because it's sort of paints a portrait of a really great visual, right? So by the time I got to that play, that year, from probably my first panic attack around age eight, all the way to 21. That took a long time. And then when my mom came and got me, because my friends called her thank God, and brought me home to Jersey, and I dropped out of school, and I started getting help, but the first person I saw was a psychiatrist, who had treated my dad in the evenings. And my parents thought, the week oh, and they called him up. And he said, Okay, like, you know, brings her and get her head above water. I don't treat family members, it's not appropriate. But this sounds like an emergency situation that is short of 911
to ever come in all evaluator and I'll refer her out to somebody else. I'll see her a few times and when I'll be very clear with her. And he said to them, you know, unless she's gonna hurt herself or somebody else, you understand, I'm not going to disclose anything to you. And I'm sure they still ask questions. He was like, No, he was great. And I remember him saying to me, and he did he follow through with all of that, and I remember him saying to me, you know, sorry, come by this honestly. He said, I it is not appropriate or ethical to treat, you know, multiple generations of family at the same time and you said, but in this case,
I've felt it's warranted. And he said, but I do feel like I have a cheat sheet. And he started laughing. And he said, as a psychiatrist, I do feel I have a cheat sheet. And he said, I'll never tell you anything. You know, the only reason I even acknowledged your father was a patient of mine is because you know, because your dad told you, right, right. And we started laughing. And because he had also at one point she's deceased now had helped my grandmother get into treatment for alcoholism, he was the point of reference for a rehabilitation facility. And as the family was trying to help and do interventions and stuff, but like, basically,
starting when I was eight, got to its absolute worst of 21. And there have been breakthrough periods. But generally speaking, for me, I love traveling now, because I did so much time did so much time in behavioral therapy with exposure method that I like, I used to say like, you know, it's like a Clockwork Orange, but the reverse and people were like, That's fucking horrifying. What are you talking about? And I'm like, Okay, let's use a different comparison.
loves dogs. And he read more about that experiment. You're like, oh, no, I'm slick look, with the help of some professionals. I reverse brainwashed myself into really liking travel through, which is ongoing for me medication, meditation, talk therapy. Now sobriety is a piece of that. So the work that I do in sobriety for sure helps to and then also, you know, whether yoga going for wall nutrition to understanding how caffeine and sugar
so yeah, this is the Babel cast. Hi, I'm Sarah have invaded Chartist podcast.
Together, we babble in closets. We have all that, you know, bringing it back to so what you're speaking to, you know, the genetics versus what was modeled? You know, you're talking about epigenetics, right. So, and for those of you who are not totally clear on what epigenetics is, there's recognition that, you know, inside a family, let's say that there was one adopted kid, and mom gets cancer. And that's something that's quote unquote, genetic. And then the everyone in the family gets cancer, including the adopted kid, like, what are the belief systems? What are the learned behaviors and the thinking that's influencing our physical and emotional health. And then bringing it back to the heart rate variability piece, right, the commonest or most intense heart rate in the room is going to impact the other heart rates. I'm just picturing you in this family, like this little being and you know, when we're infants, in an ideal world, a tiny little beings nervous system, when it's upset is being run through a bigger nervous system to comment. That's why we bundle babies, that's why we hold them against our body to suit them. But if you take a mom or a dad that's having a panic attack, right, which is reasonable as a new parent, that is what's being run through the baby, and then the baby becomes the source of the thing that's actually causing the parent instead. Nice. And there's a quote that I want to read because it really, I felt like it was really powerful. And I can't remember where I pulled this from, but it's really hard to raise kids who are so much older than you, especially when you desperately want to make them happy. Even when you know they love you and value your opinion on their marriage, finances, mental health, relationship with their parents relationship with their siblings, personal mental health history and their romantic history. It's just a lot when you're eight. Oh, yeah, I wrote that.
That there are so many. Sometimes people will read to me that I know other authors who are like this to where we forget, because you just write so much, but that was recent. That was something Yeah, really recently. Yeah, thank you for pulling that.
I've been feeling like it captures that having pulled that I was picturing you as an eight year old, going picturing you in that restaurant, or in your family home going like,
I'm okay. Everybody's okay. And like your heart rate attempting to calm the heart rates of the people around you and how much work that is and imagining how much work you were doing all along to try to maintain that. Yeah, consciously unconsciously right. We just have these habitual ways of being that I believe we seek out and decide this is how I have to be okay in this family, to belong to be loved. Like you need to be okay in order for me to be okay. So I'll do the thing it takes and I think we do that.
Starting in utero, like we really come out knowing or thinking we know and having a strategy. Yeah, we often as children think that we know what the adults around us want. And we learn to play that role. And when I was home recently, my mom and dad were arguing about something not a big thing. But they were are you at something and I was sitting there, sort of, and it was feeling the same myself. You don't say you don't need to interject. You're not bearing witness. You don't have to jump in and defend it. It was so funny. My mom turned to me. I didn't say anything. My mom turned to me and said, and I just want to say you're not our therapist. So you don't have to, you don't have to jump in. And she wasn't saying it in a nasty way. She was like, in a moment, like locking in with me. It's the first time this has ever happened. And she just she was like, talent. And I just looked at her. And I said, Thank you. Because I felt like, that was my job when I was little. And she said, I know you do. And I have a lot of regrets about that. And my dad was so confused, because my dad was like, Why, like what is happening because my dad is usually the one who, you know, with my mom, I'll get more because she was the parent who I felt that I had to take care of more. And because she was the parent where I felt like I was, you know, learn too much about a lot of times my dad and I will sort of communicate in a more like, peaceful way, I guess.
And I think but I think his mind is sometimes blown by just like how me and her can just connect in an instant. And I was like, Thank you, we had this like, deep moment that she went back to just be like, and you remember that weren't gonna roast and buy this, you know, whatever. It was, like, whatever it was, and it was so wild that I was like, Damn, dude, like, part of the reason I moved back east was because my family was living in LA and I love California so much. And part of the reason I moved back east temporarily was well, I felt like I'm seeing my friends. It's 2020 I've been alone except for my cat like, you know, it's vaccines aren't our la isn't necessarily handling was so great. But there is no Jersey seems like you're doing and I had a new I had mom's birthday, my 40th birthday, dad's birthday, the birth of my second nephew, my brother's birthday, all coming up, boom, boom, and Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's. And so I thought, well, let me Yeah, find out permission storage, and I'll go back east and rent a place and not live with my parents, because that would be too intense. And thank God, I have a different option all rented place, you know, lucky to be able to do that. And they helped me find a place. You're a friend of a friend, it was a good price. And I was like, boom, let's do this. What I've sort of come to feel is that, and then I decided to say but what I
feel what I've realized, because sometimes that decision to say to to purchase a place back east, which seemed bananas, and was and I was like, why am I going into the spreadsheet debt and doing this thing? Besides the low interest rates in early 2021? Why? Why am I doing? Why am I doing and then I thought,
I don't know. It just feels right, I'm just gonna do it. What I've realized is that part of it is healing. A lot of shit around my parents and being an adult around them putting into practice the things I've learned through sobriety, which are ongoing. And the things that I learned in working with my therapist, she was great, and who probably won't listen to this, because she has good boundaries, but maybe she'll I don't know, and actually my, my, my psychiatrist, really
I've worked with different people over the course of my life in therapy, and I've been so fortunate to have access to that. And I have to say that these folks they haven't specialized in, I don't think either one of them has specialized in somatic therapy or movement, they're gonna be looked at but they both
really aren't like it. They, they're, they really seem to care and understand reading about how the body keeps core and how to continuing to learn more and more about theories and about things that you've touched on. Like they're not just they're not just like
Hill pushing by the book books, you know, they integrated, that's great. Yeah. And there's so many different resources that work for people out there. And when you're working with the nervous system, I feel like it's pretty common knowledge, although I'm surprised it's not taught in certain schools that I know of in the Bay Area that working through the body is really valuable, right like that, just telling the same stories is reactivating for the nervous system. And so it's always good to know it's kind of like there are teachers that have their 10 year whatever they're locked in, and then they just have the same curriculum they use for 40 years and they're disengaged from their students and then there are other teachers who they want to
continue to be engaged and they want their kids to learn. And so hopefully, you know, psychotherapists continue to evolve as the field evolves, and extra work, you all are busy people, I mean, not only are, you know, hopefully slammed with clients, but you also have paperwork and billing and office space and taxes and running a small independent business, or you're part of some big ass HMO, that's frustrating you because you have to do by look shit and don't feel like doing. And so it's like, it's extra homework. It's not like you. It's not like doing the extra work and reading the new stuff, that somebody's like, cool. Here's $500 Bonus, or like, here's your continuing education credit for this article. You just spent an hour reading in half, you know, like, I see that and appreciate that, though. Because I'm sure I mean, also turnout, do you ever feel that? Like,
this is okay.
Do you ever, as a practitioner, as a therapist, fall in love with a technique to the point where if somebody told you, it didn't work, you'd be pissed? Because I would be? That's such an interesting question. You know, I definitely, I did talk therapy. I received it for 10 years, starting at 14, before I discovered somatic work. And I would even consider Pilates. Even it was therapeutic. Not that it was therapy. But it was the first thing that I realized that getting focused in my body could reduce being on the verge of a panic attack. Nothing has helped my mother like
that, that. I'll talk about the therapy of the New Jersey moms shout out to Gail, her instructor, she fantastic. The regulation that that she is what whether it is racing thought, yeah, back to you, whether it's depression rating back, it was like the obsessive stuff sort of like hypomania stuff, not that I'm an advocate, by the way, not that I'm advocating anybody simply be like, God applies. But I'm just saying that for my mom who does has really begun to do a lot of work on herself in the past few years in a way that's been really, you know, beautiful, man. Yeah, well, it's, you know, and that's the thing. And there's I also did authentic movement, these are things I was also seeing a therapist, but it was a slow slide into philon somatic
bodywork and practices, right is being in the present moment, like authentic movement is something a little different. It's like letting your body move and having a witness. And that was very uncomfortable. And I basically just did it with my hands, like I couldn't even move my whole body, I could just let my hands have a conversation playing y'all. But it helped reveal a lot and helped me get out of an abusive relationship when I was 21. So when I came to somatic practices, and they helped me feel safe in the world, safe in my body, be able to be in intimate relationships in a way that I didn't feel that I could. Previously, somehow it's even hard for me to imagine being told that doesn't work. It's probably like if someone came to someone who was deeply, you know, fundamentalist Christian was like, God doesn't exist, or religion does work. It's that level of, I don't believe in Dogma. I'm a big fan of no dogma yet. I will admit to
that. I feel like I've been become a cheese proselytizer as well, like, I really believe in cheese now, which I didn't 25 years. She's in somatic therapy. Those are my two so boxes, and she loves movement. She's a big fan. She's got situation, like as slight dance moves.
crossbody physical movement, helping the brain to heal neck neural pathways, but also cheese, you're gonna find you're doing jazz hands and the cheese. I love Whole Foods. I would welcome that. I would truly welcome that. I think all foods would welcome that as well. Which is my drug of choice. Totally. I went Wait, this is so we I have an off topic things. Okay, good. I'm sorry. Um, I gave you a very bizarre hypothetical.
I'm like you're living on the moon and somatic therapy doesn't exist. What do you do? You like wait minutes. Okay. So let's see somatic therapy, of course exists in his fabulous, let's say, somebody let's say you like read some peer reviewed, double blind, whatever fabulous studies that are like, wow, nothing helps panic attacks as much as this particular cific tapping method, like not emotional freedom technique, like like, blah, blah, blah, tapping method. It's new. It's great. Everybody's like, this is hot. We love it. It's great. And so people start using it and you find that your four answers for
aren't really well to it. And then it turns out that the person who invented it was a charlatan, like some bullshit jerk who's like, yeah, I just kind of pull that out of my, what didn't matter to you if it still works, because you know, yeah, I look Jung's experience of what like, okay, young, like, almost certainly, some patients are blown patients like, like, you know, to what extent do we consider that consensual at this point, or young? Almost certainly, we know, he had ongoing affairs with research assistants, right, some of whom had previously been in treatment. This is back in the day, we didn't that same code of ethics happening. We're talking about a very specific time and place we're talking about, you know, do we how do we look at that Bah, blah, blah. And so some for some people, that invalidates a lot of what he has to say, or he doesn't, Perri just informed me about this fellow bang and broads and saving lives? You know, that's what that's his motto, that was his motto and Swiss. German? Would if there was some technique that really you found it really helped your patients? And then the person who's like, No, I made that up. Like, would you care? Well, what's interesting, so the placebo really works, right? Like, obviously,
the so what you're basically speaking to is a placebo effect. And if we trust and believe in something,
it can bring us value. Simply belief alone, simply being in a state of hope,
can heal inflammation more than a special diet, or more than, you know, being on a certain pill? Honestly, I can. I've experienced this through meditation, I feel like time and time again, I yield physical things in my body through changing my internal my heart rate, and my thoughts. And what I merit literally what I'm choosing to marinate in every day, making a choice to create my internal state rather than letting old habitual thoughts hijack me. Right. And so, you know, you could call it the placebo, or you could call it like internal direction and your higher self, you know, conducting things that also has me think of what when I had COVID and we had COVID at the same time we did we had COVID
like COVID twin. I had my birthday twin on last week. Oh, when? What's your thoughts? februari sevens? I'm an Aquarius. I love that. My arrogance is a Capricorn and I feel like lately in my life, I have been connecting a lot with Warren and
Aquarius. Greber. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so coming back to so we had COVID at the same time, and I did a deep dive into cults documentaries. Wow. And I was probably keep making myself maybe I wouldn't have even had COVID If it wasn't for all the cult documentaries, but Nexium, the vow, I watched all of it's very long, I've watched both seasons sexual one that the woman was involved in.
Well, there are the real story. So there's orgasm, Inc, which is with one taste in which I watched that was the breakthrough drug or whatever the doorway into all that was your gateway, drug gateway gateway. And so so the vow was looking at Nexium. And in it, when you get really close on the inner circle, there was a lot of messed up sexual assault, intense manipulation. But if you're in the outer circle, you see that these teachings, there's value to them. So it's a tricky thing. You know, I'm very fascinated by the difference between what's a learning community a spiritual community of space for self evolution, versus what's a cult, you know, it's like that. It's like, what exactly is a cult. And so in that case, you could say this thing perhaps was made up
or manipulative and hurtful. And it truly was for a lot of people. And then there was there were certain people that were not so close in that actually got a lot of value. So they got good part of the cake. They got the icing on the cake, like maybe the cake itself was garbage, but they just had a little taste. So of course to them, if we ask these different people their perspective on it, there would be some who just said, Oh, it fits like when you meet a person and you have very, I mean, I've had this experience where I was working with somebody in the entertainment industry, and I went in for a meeting with somebody else and they said, How's it working with blah, blah, blah? And I said, Oh, they're so lovely. They're so wonderful. You know, we've only met a few times and then
this other person knows, I'm so glad they're nice to you. And that's why I was like, whoa. And then I started to hear all the stories of the not niceness, because I had gotten the icing. I was on the outer circle, we had done a deal and made money together, it would have been bad probably. And just so you know, if we get a cake, you can have the icing. I like the cake part. It's like you know, the yolk people and egg white people. Yeah. All I can picture when you talk about the icing is all that like, like, Safeway cake, where there's the roses, and like the really yucky icing. So I'm like, keep the Alright, tastes like plastic. Yeah. Or it's like your waxy, waxy mouth. Yeah, yes, we definitely people have complex personalities and present one way to one person and show a very different side of themselves to another. Right. And we get to see this in families all the time, when we if someone has a borderline mom, you know, where all of her positive stuff gets projected onto one kid and all the things she can't tolerate in herself get projected onto another and that kid gets treated like caca. Yeah, somebody was a friend of mine just started therapy and that they were introduced the idea of let's see that in. And I don't know, whose work this is. But the sort of idea that in a dysfunctional family, like I suppose one would say, a profoundly dysfunctional family, rather than one that just has to ship but they're working on it. Like a family that's not working on it, there's some real heavy shit they're not dealing with. She was saying to me that oftentimes, there's, you'll notice I don't, there's the black sheet, there's the golden child. And there's the lost child like that. Sometimes, everybody doesn't always neatly fall into this category. It was interesting, because this person has four children in the family. And three of the children fit those plates. And the other one was just a fourth child was sort of like a lost child with a golden child rising.
There.
And it was this person that my friend's therapist had presented to her look, don't you don't have to try and fit everybody. I'm not trying to push you into fitting categories, because usually we don't in the real world, you know, but it's just useful to think about my friend was like, nope, bing, bang, boom, and then this one, enter, there was like, all right. That's so funny. Well, I'm blanking on the word. It's not the runner up. But it's the like, the person who's on book in case the star can win under study that study. Yeah, I'm the gold that I'm the golden child under study. But I'll be the last child under study. And that's like, such like, we got the youngest of four. It's like fourth kid energy, like they're tired. The parents are tired. They've worked out who they put the first three children into each specific category before child or odd Oh, no. Who knows? You know, and I think that, I think that when I look at my dad's family structure, he was the youngest of four. And I think he probably occupied at least two combinations, like golden child and last child like, Oh, where are you? We forgot you're around. Oh, you're so fun, though. Oh, you're fine. During it's a good time you take the edge off thing. And it's like, wow, and how about you? Where do you fit in that? Oh, golden child? For sure. For sure, for sure. 100%. Yeah. And,
you know, I would say when I've been in my sickness, and not are in mind by sickness.
What I really need is when I've been in active alcoholism, and also like, not appropriately connected with the right healing for panic attacks, agoraphobia, depression, that the lost child, I would say to have so golden child last child is a really powerful combo, because your beloved, and they also think you might die all the time. So you're sort of extra beloved, because they're like,
is she gonna wake up tomorrow? I don't know. Like, where you know, and they want to hold on and make sure you're okay. And it's wild. The other day, my mom said to me, she said, last year, I've been popping out with some winners lately. I gotta say, we've struggled a lot in our relationship, but the work is ongoing and I deeply appreciate her willingness to engage in it with me and I will say that the other day she said, you know, like, you're happy. And I oh my gosh, you're right. I am and then of course, immediately I got like, anxious and I was like, Well, you know, bad things can happen any day and feeling UK van are still definitely fucked up, mom, but like, I am pretty happy. And I thought about it. And I thought, why did that feel so surprising? And I thought, well, because I am pretty happy. But I don't have a partner. I'm not dating anyone steadily. I thought that was what you needed to be happy for so long. I mean, I'm like, you know, I'm in therapy and I'm sober. You know, in some ways, I would think that means I'm a broken baby bird, but no, that's actually good. Yeah.
Uh, well, I mean, you know, it's a huge deal when I think about the comedy world, right, and I don't know how much you're actively in that world anymore but self medicating and meant, you know, dealing with mental health or issues in that community. Oh my gosh, yeah, I was in an episode of a documentary series verbalized on the dark side of comedy came out last year 2022. And I was in the episode about Maria Bamford. And there's this moment where Maria goes, you're doing a mental health doc, called the bombers and like, put on her glasses. She's so funny. It was a fun episode, we are dealing with intrusive thoughts and medication and you know that periods of paranoia and different things that she's gone through. And so it's like me and Marin and Patton, Oswald and the Parthenon share Allah and there's a few other people I think, who talk about it, and it was such an easy, yes, because I was just like, Oh, I get to talk about everything Maria is and I got to talk about mental health great, but I you know, I did another mental health doc a few years ago, that Rainn Wilson his company did. And I did another thing with the Yankees network, the yes network talking about anxiety and like, I feel like I end up talking about this shit so much, because people are like, Oh, okay, you're, I mean, I haven't done stand up in years, but I still do like storytelling and do podcasts and do acting I do, you know, punch up on Comedy scripts. Like I still do comedy thing. And, and sometimes in comedy clubs, which is funny, like I'm not doing stand up, but it'd be like, let's do a talk show about butts. Sarah will be a guest at
it's kind of honestly like really fun. It's kind of my ideal because Stanhope has such hard work and I have a huge amount of respect for people who can do that shit but it is a coping to your point it is a coping mechanisms within harmony often end up first of all, you get hate and drinks a lot when you're coming up, or when you're not coming up. When you're a star or not even a star you're you know, maybe you're not even headline, maybe you're featuring Right? Or you're hosting, okay, you're getting paid, the bar might be open to you entirely. That's rare, you're usually gonna get a beer, you know, you might get like curry fried or whatever. And then also the socializing. That was what I love most about it was making friends. And so you're drinking, you get to know the bartender, you're tipping them? Well, hopefully everyone's listening, tipping them while they go through so much, especially in this era. And then like, you're getting free drinks, or like, maybe you're dating the bartender now, because you're there all the time, because you're at this point, and or maybe like, like, what brings people together more than doing drugs together in a weird alley behind a theater club. Let's don't do that small enclosed spaces. We like them their comfort, we love them. What's cozier than that? And so I mean, I was just a drinker. And, you know, didn't really do much else. Drinking was my problem. Yeah, and, you know, blocking and spending and various other things. But I mean, like, I wasn't like doing like lines of coke with other people in the bathroom, that would have been a good bonding experience. My point is, this is a bonding experience for a lot of comics. And then that becomes, you tie that to how well you do on stage, you tie it to your friends, you tie it to who's going to take you on the road with them. To get somebody who likes hanging with you. Maybe one of the things you do his drugs. And how did you give in all of that, right? That's very seductive, it makes a lot of sense to engage in it. What had you stop? What was compelling enough to stop you and get you sober? I, you know, I was very sad. I was very sad that things that were that I thought I needed to be happy. You had told me a year ago, your mom's gonna say you're happy and you're gonna agree with her. They go what's in your life, I go, Okay, well, I'm making a lot of money. I sold a bunch of TV shows, or I have my own TV show acting would not have been part of the equation, which is really funny to me that I've gotten into acting so different, and sober and like 40. So before I got so I would have said, well, obviously, I have created TV shows, and I'm very wealthy, very independently wealthy. I certainly don't have a day job forced on. I went awards for them for these things. And if you'd asked me, What's the genre I wouldn't have known because I have sort of a general feeling. I'm a best selling author also. And I look like this. And this is more my husband or wife. And this is where our beautiful wedding was probably an Oh, hi. And I guess like oh, and I don't take meds because I'm just totally fine. And I like go to therapy sometime. And and that's fun. Just your check in like check in therapy, and I do flies all the time. And I'm a yoga instructor, but just for fun, I would have gone on and on and there was that stuff. And now and here's the thing, like, what, that's what I was all those different things I was striving for and I was able to make genuine loving connections with the sort that I want and then I felt the
Are you and that alcohol use was increasing. And I knew that it would increase even further. Because that's how that goes, I had enough friends who'd gotten sober, I had the example of my grandmother getting sober, I was really little. And I didn't know about it at that time. But I learned more as I got older. And I had the example of the fact that having an active alcoholic family can have on children and friends that you know, so I had all these examples, it was my deep sadness, and shame at my behavior, and
intersected with the example of
seems like they were happier, not in an Instagram way, but in a real way. And I sort of just like,
read, and it was the big one drinking, not all the work to program, but those who did seem to be very happy about that. And those who didn't have seem to have found other stuff, they almost invariably had, like, found meditation, or like a healthy spiritual community. They had found exercise and a few friends and suggested me that I might enjoy being sober. There's a funny way. You like it, like, you know, XYZ solutions, even people who didn't you know, who didn't work, the program that I work were like, I think you'd like that there was like, other people living their lives and just doing their thing, and not trying desperately to achieve were happier. And like, I would argue more, more accomplished in their way. I don't mean necessarily with
titles or scheint, they just come to like, love. They don't they also don't say yes to every day, they're not constantly trying to fill their time, I thought was so wild Charna when women would say that I'm talking about sis women in this case, but it's true for for, you know, any woman identified individual trans woman as well, that I can pick up now like, because the idea of what is woman
is a partner and helped me in so many ways and the overall culture, right, the Judeo Christian culture, I don't know enough about Islam to say that, whether I should include that. So I'm just putting it on the Christian and Jewish folks with that notion of the helpmate. So if you are, you know, in my mind, if you're a non binary femme presenting, if you are a sis woman, if you're a trans woman, if you occupy any space that would get dub, womanly, that part of your purpose, and part of your joy is being a partner to someone else. And in my mind, I was like, regardless of gender, so with like a very, like weirdly gender inclusive, heteronormative way of looking.
And I wasn't anybody's helped me, I wasn't anybody's partner, I could do. I could walk around a lot. I could have boyfriends or girlfriends for two seconds, but I didn't have a full time gig. And that meant that I wasn't really happy. And now I'm like, so sad, man. Well, it means that your happiness is dependent on something external. And that you really, the locus of control and agency is not accessible to you alone.
And I understand, you know, it's interesting, I was not raised by parents that got married to anybody, right. I wasn't raised with very conventional structures or pressures, I was kind of I was there was abuse, and there was neglect, but I was on my own, you know.
And so I really struggled to relate to clients that were in their early 20s, that grew up in those systems that felt so much pressure as straight women to get married and have kids by a certain age, and it's very much the culture in a lot of places. And, you know, I came out in high school. And so I just felt freedom to follow what felt right to me. That's which a benign aspect of neglect. Yeah, well, that's the thing it was, you know, better I don't know, I didn't get help with your my homework because I was smarter. But you know, but this piece of having it be dependent and incisive, what I was saying is, even though I grew up with all without that, and even though I identified as queer and as a lesbian for a long time, when I started to heal enough of my terror around men, and had acknowledged and could accept the part of myself that was actually very much attracted to men and wanted to be with men as well, it's a slippery slope. It infiltrates like cultural pressure and the collective unconscious just so you're all sponge and you just soak it right up, you know? Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh, like, I'm sure no parents who've done a really good job of trying to learn as a single parent, parenting group, parenting and a couple whatever, where everybody has tried really hard to make sure that the children don't have like Disney Princess stuff in the house.
or they don't have this or that or that they have. And then, you know, a kid comes home and it's like, I want a Disney princess wedding. And you're like, where did you learn that? Like, it's just, it's in the, it's out there, it's in the ether. And it's on TV. It's in film, it's in books, and in all these different things, the idea that, that if you are a woman identified are helped me identified, you are a partner, you are a partner, you are the beta to the alpha you are, that's your place. And isn't that beautiful? And you know what, there are beautiful aspects of that. Sure. But that's not all. You have to be and you also don't have to be that. And I think that when women of any sort, I think this is what I was gonna say originally, when women have any identification along any identifiers along with that term woman, any women that to be asked to take some time for myself, I'd be like, what? Like it just not judging them admiring like what it was like they told me they climbed Mount Everest time to be on purpose to be single, because we're over 20 years I was never single on was always trying to attach myself to someone. Okay, cool, that part of my life is taken care of now, I can go back to obsessively focusing on work that, right, right, right, the tools, the two things that you're supposed to be obsessed with and put your attention on versus train it on yourself. So I err, we could chat forever, that you have a podcast? Well, this isn't normal. I do. That's my pelvic podcast. Yeah. In an episode a couple of months ago, you acknowledged a rough patch you went through, and you're talking about hyper arousal, which we may conventionally know is anxiety and hypo arousal, which is often an experience of depression. And you had a set of tools, and steps that helped you that you took. And I'm wondering if you would want to share that checklist with us. Or if there's another kind of practice, something that you have felt has been helpful for you around mental health and managing your states. Oh, thank you for asking Charna I love that. While I will say I will share my post COVID 19 infection, which has affected my heart in different ways literally had to go to the cardiologist because it helps patients, it's fine, I'm fine, but figuratively, has expanded,
has expanded my heart and compassion. Because before it was something I felt so bad other people had to deal with. And that might be my neighbor who's at positions worked so hard dealing with at a hospital that mainly serves the working working class for money shows, folks, right, so like, read all the stories, you have the friends and family who deal with it. I understood it as this global pandemic that I was somehow stale in the book through and now that I've had it and deal with the After Effects. I'm like, oh, fuck, so I'm adjusting now. So this is more inclusive, which is good. I would say that if you are going through a rough patch, with regard to depression and anxiety,
that what I have found in my post Coco era, where sometimes for me that also in brain fog rolling in, I picture, the central coast of California, which I love so much in the way the fog view thing, and then it rolls out. So if you're dealing with any of that,
I would say
get yourself a whiteboard, or a sheet of notebook paper that you feel comfortable riding on every day.
At night, writing yourself a note
that says I love you, you got the whatever you're worth our affirmations wherever the fuck you want. Whatever the kid inside you who's suffering Eve or the adults, whoever, write them a little love note at night, and don't be embarrassed.
It's okay, good. We're on your mirror maybe to post it No, I use my whiteboard. It'll say like Wednesday. Good morning. I love your Wednesday you got this or I have something by the artists uni soccer gal up that says something to the effect of some days. It's okay if the only thing you do is breathe. Now, if you're on an assistive breathing device, you're still here as my grandmother would say you're on the right side of the dirt.
Love it. Yeah. And then when you're on the wrong side of the dirt, it's going to be the right senator for you. And you'll go and become infinite energy or an angel or nothing at all. We don't know. But for now you're here to write yourself a little love note at night. And if nights are really tough for you, and you're like, Buck, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna feel like shit. All the more reasons to do it. If you see that note, a million times when you get up at night and go to the bathroom or perhaps in the fetal position cry. That's right. It's still there for you in the morning like so write yourself a note make it as cheesy as you want.
Don't worry about being trucking.
And I would say also, if you are somebody who responds well to to list of things to do, I would I do this for myself, I put up a very simple us that, for me, it's gray matter, meditate,
take my medication, have contact with my sober program. And I'll put yoga on walk. And like, you know, if I hit most of those every day, I'm pretty good.
So I'm big on writing notes to yourself to your future self. Because if you are in a place where sometimes you don't want to exist anymore, writing a note to your future self, even a little checklist is an act of I think it can keep you going even just for tonight. And then you get to decide if you feel like doing it again. But yeah, writing yourself in love notes, lists,
putting notes of encouragement, places where you'll forget what you find later, I think that's good. You can also record a voice note to yourself if that's easier. Like, I used to want to kill myself when I would wake up in the morning. And then I'll be like, alright, in at the worst of it. It was like if you can get through 15 minutes without killing yourself, you can check back in and reconsider. And it was just doing that all fucking day. But it got easier by nighttime. I felt good. And I was like, okay to go to bed and and do this shit again.
I record a voice note in that good state to listen when I was in my tough state. No. Yeah. Wil Wheaton. I saw write something about this one, like notes to your future self like how California is and I really agree. Beautiful. Yeah. And there's also along those lines, there's the Mind Valley app. And it has all these courses you can take. And one of the courses is so he has a variety of courses that are kind of self hypnosis type classes that are on there.
Jose Silva, there's the Jose Silva method. And this the Silva method, Kimber, the guy who started Mindvalley, but Jose Silva has influenced a lot of different people around manifesting and putting, you know, like mindful attention and kind of, he wouldn't call it self hypnosis, but I feel like it's adjacent. And there's a course called quantum jumping. And you can do these guided meditations that are very short 10 to 15 minutes long. And you get to go and communicate and interact with
future selves, past selves that are on different timelines in all different contexts of your life. And I find these actually quite soothing and the countdown the like self hypnosis countdown at night or in the morning. It pretty much you do it enough and it can pretty much help you drop into a deeper relaxed state. If you're having trouble
going to sleep or I love that Turner. Thank you. It's been so great to have you sir. I'm so glad we got to finally meet and see your face in person and and how can people find you if they want to see your podcast, read your books, your blog, etc? How well Charna it has been a damn delight to be here. You've been so patient with schedule. Thank you so much. I'm stoked. I am on Instagram at Sarah J. Ben and Elsa. On medium I write essays which are available free. That's Sarah J then.medium.com. If you want to subscribe to my four times a month newsletter. It's called serotonin. And that's at Sarah J. Ben and kasa.substack.com. I'm also at patreon.com/airbending class that there my public podcast is called well this isn't normal. And then I have a private podcast called the AUDIO LETTER, which just goes to patrons of my Patreon four times a month. And yeah, my books are available and all the usual book places I would say. In order to support the podcast I've started a Patreon. If you're like me and new to Patreon, it is an opportunity to give back to a person or show that you feel has contributed to your life, wellness and growing wisdom. Today I'm asking you if you feel my existence and the work I do in the world makes a difference. Please show me a tangible offer of your support back to the more people that join the more exclusive content I'll be adding for members only. You can find my patreon@www.pa T ar e yo n.com backslash la IDOPENPOD. Ca st to learn more about how you can support our community. If you found this podcast helpful share it with anyone you can any way you can please rate review
and share it with friends so others can find our community of healing. You can also follow me at laid open podcast on Instagram and Facebook, and read more about my work at passionate life.org. Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself.
