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Journey Into the K-Hole Using Medically Administered Ketamine with Carrie Katz

Today’s episode is a special one. I’m joined by my friend and birthday twin, Carrie Katz, on our birthday, February 7th. Carrie’s a fellow somatic psychotherapist and as you’ve probably surmised, my birthday twin extraordinaire. Together we celebrate our birthday and discuss ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and answer listeners’ questions about the ins and outs of determining whether you could benefit from ketamine. 

I candidly share how I’ve benefited from ketamine-assisted journeys to reboot my nervous system. While Carrie shares about her client work, using her knowledge to answer all your questions. We discuss the recent large transitions Carrie has gone through with the loss of her dad, her son going to college, and the disbanding of Rosen Coven, a band she’s traveled the world with for over two decades.

If you’ve ever considered doing a Ketamine journey with a professional to help you with your anxiety, depression, PSTD, complex PTSD, ODC and more–this is the episode for you. We do a deep dive into people who are potentially good candidates for ketamine therapy and circumstances when it’s inappropriate. We also talk at length about the difference between social use, versus therapeutic use, especially since so many people self-medicate.

Carrie ends the episode with a beautiful rose in the heart meditation sometimes used in the ketamine space.

Show Notes So today is February 7, and this is a very special birthday episode. Not only is it my birthday, but it's also my guests. This year, I'm celebrating myself the way I would have welcomed my own beloved child into this world. Pregnant women don't always have the resources or support to feel loved or emotionally and physically safe enough to then offer this to their babies in or out of utero. But I can do this for myself and for those I love. We truly don't know when we'll take our last breath. So I encourage you to celebrate and love today. Welcome back slid up in podcast I've launched a Patreon for my podcast and if you feel you receive value from these episodes, you can also get additional bonus exclusive content such as meditations in depth exercises, and behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. All of that and more is T ar e o n dot CLM backslash la IDOPENPODC A S T. By supporting us on Patreon you're not only contributing to the creation of this podcast, you will also provide the support needed for me to work on my book, workshops, online courses and additional free content. So today's guest is Carrie Katz. Carrie is not only a somatic psychotherapist, and she offers ketamine assisted therapy. She's also a professional musician in a band called rosin coven. And she's one of my closest friends. And my birthday twin. Welcome Carrie life is about to start isn't it? On? magic magic Happy Birthday, cutie Charna Happy Birthday birthday twin. Thank you. I wanted to have you on to celebrate us since we so often end up having to celebrate with our separate peoples. And coordinating is tricky. And, you know, I see my show is focused on helping people heal and live more vibrant lives. And you're one of my favorite creative and deep hearted and thoughtful humans. So yeah, back atcha Ah, there's so many things that we could just talk about. And I'm, you know, I'm thinking actually, I'm remembering we were walking down a beach. We were on a kayaking camping trip that was focused around seeing bioluminescence and we I wish I could remember what it was I was trying to recall I thought maybe would we had an idea for a podcast and this was years ago, this was like before podcasts were such a, you know, possible thing for everyone in their closet to do? Do you remember our idea? It was like we were finding things on the beach. We were finding things on the beach and there was a woman we met. But oh, good lord, mining the memory mining the memory of found objects on the beach. Yes, it's a topic, but Oh, Lord, no, I don't remember what that was. But I do have an image of that day. That's a special trip. Yeah. Oh, you don't remember either. I know we have. I know that we both share a love of dreamscapes and dreamy imagery. And we've, you know, been at writing groups together and and so when I think of you and when I think of dream, like imagery, you always come to mind. But we're going to get a little concrete now I'm going to step out of that dream realm. I'm gonna ask you some very concrete questions, because ketamine is something that is so popular right now. And so many people have lots of questions, and I thought, why not produce an episode and have one of my favorite people answer some of these questions. Yes. And it's a good example of, you know, the ketamine world is like a dream world don't live in all space. But it's also very important to have your feet on the ground going into it to balance those two worlds. And so along those lines, how is it that you came to this Ever ketamine or see it as a resource? What brought you to it? So probably about five years ago or so, I had become interested in psychedelics and you know, there's the personnel, then there's the professional, so professionally, I was interested in becoming trained as an MDMA therapist. And so went through a process of looking for at the time maps where I ended up training with that you needed to have a team, you needed to have a site. And so through a whole process, it found a team of people, we got on the waiting list, and it was like, okay, the years were going by, and, well, we didn't know when we would actually be trained. And then ketamine is came into the field, some of the people in the team had done some of the trainings and said, how wonderful they were interesting. It was someone who's basically my partner right now. Dr. Zeus can shout out to him. He was on the team. He was the doctor on this team. So I said, Hey, did anyone on the team want to go and do these trainings and check it out? So we went and did the first module. This was at Polaris insight Center in San Francisco. And we fell in love with the work and the approach that they were taking had a very spiritual approached, I was surprised that a clinic had such a spiritual approach. And so we dove in and we did that because we thought, well, we're not going to be we don't know when we'll be able to actually work with MDMA. So let's start with ketamine, but have really come to love ketamine in its own right, not just as the gate with into MDMA, but it's very powerful and beautiful medicine. Yeah. And who do you think, ketamine that serves? What? What are the issues that people are dealing with? Because each medicine has, you know, has its different benefits? And who is a good fit for ketamine? Yeah, so most of the research that's been done is around treatment, resistant depression, and ketamine. And it's been found to be extremely helpful for people who tried yet who have lived with depression for many years, their life, sometimes they've tried different kinds of therapy, therapeutic approaches, medications, SSRIs, and they still are struggling with depression. That's where most of the research has been done. And part of the reason why is because ketamine works with a different neurotransmitter than serotonin works in the glutamate system. So that's part of the medical, physiological reasons why it can help, I'm sure we'll talk about No, there's the medical physiological element of ketamine, but then there's what it can open up for somebody else to explore within themselves. So depression, it also can be really helpful for PTSD, complex PTSD, but that is something that has to really be approached with a lot of care and caution, anxiety. I've seen it help with social anxiety, it can help people on the autism spectrum OCD. And so that, you know, also for personal and spiritual growth, although you can't get there's no DSM diagnosis for that. So, you know, a doctor can't prescribe it for that right now. But, you know, it really, it's not just in the way that I see it, it's not just to relieve symptoms, right? But it is really to be able to help a person unfold in what hakomi would call their organic self, to allow them to get back in touch with that. And that get lost with trauma with depression. We get cut off with that it needs a healer inside of us that knows how to grow. So ketamine helps us when it works, helps us get in touch back in touch with that innate healing within us. Yeah, along those lines. Years ago, I had a client who had been prescribed ketamine law cinches by her doctor, and I was doing body work with her somatic bodywork, and she was someone who was very numb. And yet it was remarkable even though she was a yoga teacher, and she, you know, technically is embodied, couldn't feel herself and yet when we did bodywork on ketamine, she could feel her emotions and her sincere Asians so much more. And it seems counterintuitive because it's a dissociative, right. But it allows you to get, you know, having a distance from whether it's ruminating thoughts or a level of certain intensity so that you can actually be with yourself. And so when you talk about urine, a healer or inner wisdom, it was like she could have a certain kind of clarity during those sessions that she didn't otherwise. Yes, yeah, that's such a great example. And that's particularly with very low doses, where it sort of has this paradoxical effect of dissociation. It's not the same kind of dissociation as a trauma, dissociation, but at the low doses, it actually can help somebody come closer to, you know, in the moment experiences or memories or sensations or emotions that are oftentimes too hard to be with. They're too overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah, this this, this is an important topic, I think that there's not a lot of clarity for people, the different ways that ketamine can be administered. And if we can just run through the range of those, that would be great. Sure, I'll I'll share what I know, which is, I'm sure not exhausted. So what I work with, mainly right now are the Los Angeles the collage ninjas, or they can also be true keys, which are similar to Liza just they're slow dissolve, tablets that you put under your tongue and need dissolve over about 10 to 15 minutes. And then there's intramuscular, which is given in an injection, then there is IV intravenous, which is given in more medical setting has to be administered by a doctor or medical professional. So the eye the intramuscular also does, but once that's in the minister, they can leave and the therapist can take over, there's also nasal spray. The one that the FDA has approved is called esketamine. And that's a nasal spray that insurance will cover which is great, but that's a whole other topic because they charge an insane amount of money for that. Wow. Something like $900 for a dose for one dose versus $10. For a Lawson Yeah, yeah. So don't quote me on that. But really, you know, but that's what's covered by insurance for somebody with treatment, resistant depression. My understanding through Kaiser at least I know one client who had tried a variety of antidepressants and what they will do is they will prescribe ketamine if you've been resistant, you've tried a number, but otherwise there are different clinics that you can go to get a prescription or their specific ID clinics. I think there's one in Menlo Park I don't really know any locally in Oakland, but can people the clinic at Polaris can they do intramuscular? Or do they only? Yeah, there do they do it too? Muscular there. Okay. Yeah. And we're getting that set up actually at Ankara to be able to do that, but I personally haven't found the need for most people. Yeah, callosum just has been working so well. Yeah, I can share a personal experience with that and also just a side note, my lovely Carrie and I became friends while being in a business collective at a place called on him Cara, which was a somatic psychotherapy center in in Berkeley California. And I really I missed that community I really loved getting to have our you know bi weekly meetings and check ins with these incredible women and their deep hearts Yes, yes and summit there was always one there was always one liner wonderful man holding it down masculine yes and Ankara we should say it's Gaelic for soul friend which is so good. John O'Donoghue book on the scene, the highly recommend it. Yes, right. Go read his poems. So I was lucky enough to get to be a practice client with Kerry during Lawson's journey at initially and I became a ketamine convert and really saw the beautiful value that it offered. And after having a very allergic reaction to my vaccine and feeling like my nervous system needed a massive reset. I wanted to try intermuscular ketamine infusion in that way. And my experience, it felt like it did you know, and also I just want to say that there's something so I worked with a different practitioner who held the space and I think that there's something very important and I want us to talk about this. The difference between like people will do ketamine out. party or something, versus having a guide. And for me, I think as much as the it was the ketamine, it was someone holding space for me for seven hours. I mean, I did a particularly long journey with this one person, but just feeling like I was held was the medicine. You know, just knowing that someone was there, because that was, I think, something that my nervous system didn't have when I was younger, and it really needed Absolutely. And so that's my bias towards having a guide, I can share more about my journey, but I would love for you to speak to the difference between if someone's like, yeah, I can get some ketamine from my bud and just do it at home versus, you know, social recreational use versus clinic versus an individual therapist holding space for you. That's such an important question. Yeah, we call that the therapeutic container, right, and the setting during that set, mindset that you're in, and then the setting that you do medicine in talking about psychedelics. So, I mean, I've had, I guess, I'll just start by saying, I've had people come to me for ketamine assisted psychotherapy, who've done some of the online programs that are a lot less expensive. And, you know, they're trying it out. And I think many people do well with that and get a lot out of it. But then there are people that come and they see me, I'm not really getting much out of it. And some people have taken very high doses. And then when they come to me, you know, there's the preparation phase, where, you know, we're not just jumping into taking medicine, it's like, I want to get to know that person, I want to know what the core issues are. That's what we spend time with, what are the core issues. So it's expedited therapy, what may take a long time in therapy, or like, right, in a few sessions, as we prepare, let's get to the core issues that you want to work on him that are kind of stepping you up, via having you feel stuck in life. And you build a relationship there. And there's no safety and trust is built during that time. And then during the medicine session, so the first session, well, first of all, you know, the person gets to know the space, my and we might do some even practicing of non ordinary states of consciousness without the medicine, like guided meditations or some work on the table with subtypes. And then the guide is with the, in this model, at least the guide is with the client at every moment of the session, like you were seeing. So you're really there listening and tracking every, everything that's coming up for the person. And so because you know them by now, it's not like you've known them for years, but you're getting a sense of the person, right? And what's important to them. And so you're able to really meet them, so that when things come up, that might be difficult or big experiences you've worked out ahead of time, well, here's what here's some things we can do. If you know, A, B or C happens, and you can help guide, you know, with a person get kind of lost or stuck, you can help guide them back to what their intentions are, what those core core wounding or core issues are or to resources inside of them. That helps them remember that people worked on. So people who've come from places where they're doing it on their own at home, they come in and they'll say, you know, we'll start with a lower dose usually than they've had. And they'll say, Wow, that was so much more powerful than any of the sessions I did at home. And it's because of what you were saying you with your guide, having that presence. Feeling held in your experience is the biggest, most important piece, I think of this kind of journey. Yeah. And you know, I've had clients take ketamine doctors, give it to them to even take on their own in between our sessions, for anxiety, and it can help with that, but it's so different the experience that I had with you, I think just simply trusting you right? And obviously, we haven't done therapy together but just having a person that is there that I feel safe with. That's holding space, and what was really key because being able to remember what your experiences, having someone scribe being able to narrate what I was seeing and knowing because I feel so safe with you and we laugh so much about the dream world being able to just be so so Anything I was seeing that was nonsensical, or actually, you know, really created a cohesive theme at the end, that you were, I could just be myself with you. And you could write everything I was seeing down. And not everyone is as verbal or visual. But that was very helpful for me. And I thought, being in a group where you can't be speaking out loud or being on your own, even though you can record on your phone, it's just not the same thing. Right, right. Because you're able to let go when you don't need to have that witnessing mind. Yeah, you know, you're having your journey. But you're also like, oh, I want to remember this, being able to let that go frees you to go so much more deeply. And write what you're saying is that the guide as a scribe, that's one of the big pieces too, right? So the guide is writing down everything you're saying. And because sometimes it's hard to remember a lot of what happens well, and also guide as witness. Even though you may have an observing witness, you have this other witness. And in my intramuscular experience, I remembered very little relative to influence a lower dosage, but I apparently was laughing hysterically. Like there's incredible joy incredibly talked about essence, right, incredible joy and laughter was coming out of me. And I didn't necessarily know that. But you know, I remember a little bit of it, but to have somebody tell me the extent of it. Right. And then were you I'm curious where yes, we haven't talked yet about integration, which is really the most important piece from this approach, at least psychedelic work is, what do you do with what happens in the session it? integrate that into your right? Did you when a guide brought you back to that they were told you you were laughing? Did you reconnect? Did it help you reconnect with something in yourself? Was that something you went back to? You know, it's interesting, because my my ex boyfriend now, but my boyfriend was upstairs the time and we had just started dating, he just happened to be in town. It was a funny timing, it was very vulnerable, but also incredibly sweet for him to see this part of me and for him to just have also witnessed that incredible joy that I have access to that, yeah, that I take for granted that he really pointed out, he's like, Wow, if I could, you know, I don't know if I've ever experienced that to really release in joy and just unboundedness in that way. So it helped me appreciate myself in a different way. And I think that, you know, that was an integrative thread for me being reminded of that. Yeah. And then, you know, the person that I did, I've done it twice. intramuscularly and I've done it with different guides, and they're not people that I was doing ongoing therapy with, so I would integrate more with the person that I work with. And so I don't always think it needs to be the same person. But yes, the themes there are certain images like my broccolini in my garden singing to me and up oil. It is it's my favorite image and stay with me the most because it's this thing of like nurturing, always giving out and nurturing but then the thing that I nurture nurturing me and you know, that reciprocity and that also nature as a symbol, you know, whatever you're filling your mind with, really, I think shows up during journeys and for me it was I spending so much time in nature and in my garden that yeah, Lance, is there incredible garden? Yes. If need complete, scientists love that. I love very well, that part of your journey. It was like yeah, Fantasia vegetable Fantasia. Like, I was there and seeing singing broccoli. But that was so what's one thing that's fascinating to me is that plant plant life seems to come up a lot in people's journeys, not for everybody at all. But it's a theme. It's a recurring theme. And it's just fascinating the kind of archetypal themes that come up. What are some of the others have a sense of the, I guess you would call it the cosmic the greater, you know, this, like being able to see your own story in your life and then being able to see a much, much larger, much larger universe and how and to be able to see so much more possibility and love, love and joy? These are things that people often not always but often experience in the ketamine session. And yep, without likes, and I'm trying to think of others the gratitude. Yes, gratitude To just one forgiveness that goes with self forgiveness and being able to see, forgive yourself. And also, I've seen it with other people, like people who've had abusive parents, they're able to see people in a much larger way with genuine compassion, you know, because forgiveness is something you can't, you can't make yourself feel forgiveness. Right. Right. But the ketamine often, you know, it allows people to see, oh, that's what that person was going through. This is why this is, this was their limitation, because they had this page, and you could see these layers of the pain that other people have had and have more compassion, it doesn't mean you make anything, okay, that's, there was abuse that happened, it doesn't make that okay, but it's just an understanding that like generational passing down of trauma, and then you know, how a person can then start, you know, by doing this work, they're breaking the cycle, what makes sense to me about that is, so often the thing that where people get stuck, is not having, being able to get perspective, taking things personally, and not, you know, not be able to get enough distance from something getting stuck in it. And he can't, you know, this piece of being able to see and have compassion for a parent, for instance, and realizing it's not about you. Right, right, versus ruminating in beliefs that were perhaps formed, you know, the pre pre verbal, or very young states that you take as truth versus being able to see from a cosmic vantage point, right? Oh, they're just doing the best they can. Not dismissing your experience. But go ahead. Are you gonna say, oh, yeah, no, I'm just, I'm with you on the right, like, not taking it on as go, this isn't about my worth, as a human being this is about this is the limitation of what they could give me. And it's not about me, and oh, actually, I can feel the sense of my own worthiness, love, give love to myself. So this is, this theme really gets me You know, I think we ever, as a human, we are susceptible to this most people's limited capacity when we hit up against it. Making it about yourself, you see this illustrated on the dating shows, like, Why did not get chosen what's wrong with me? And it's like, Dude, it's not about you. Right? Right. You know, it's not about you. Because you think and it's that young part of us that's like, if I was only, you know, more lovable, my mother would stop using drugs. Right? If I was only more lovable, my father wouldn't have left? If Right, no, and the right people bring into their adult relationships. And those are those stories that create those grooves in the neural networks, those ruminations that we keep trying to change it on a subconscious level, right? We're trying to change it, I just did. But we end up stuck in those loops. Right, right. Yes, I picture a little record, right. So if for all you young uns who don't know what a record is, but they had some grooves, so stepping outside of the groove, and being able to see it for what it is, which is just a loop, it's like, oh, that was a belief system. That was a neural pathway in my brain that I've repeated and repeated and repeated. And through meditation, through medicine journeys, I can actually create a new neural pathway and support that. And that's the piece about integration, right? Like, integration reinforces the new neural pathway versus just creates it and then it fades. Right, and the ketamine, part of what the ketamine does, it opens up brain plasticity, this, this has been shown in research, you have the your, those neural networks can open up to new possibilities when you're under the influence of ketamine. So it's like this window opens where you can experience and see what's possible that you haven't experienced before. And then that window starts to close after a day or two, but how do you then keep the golden threads and keep the connection in that right that the integration the practices that are going to keep those neural networks forming in the new way because you have to practice those the old ones as well you know, don't going to want to come back homeostasis, the system's going to want to go back to what it knows. So their needs To be, there needs to be practices that you're doing, whether that is meditation or somatic work or, you know, thinking in a different way, there are many kinds of integrative practices. But yeah, without that they usually don't things don't really stick. Yeah, totally. So along those lines, and I, you know, thank you listeners who have written in some questions, I appreciate that I always support that. One of the questions that was asked was, how long does someone need to take ketamine for it to be beneficial? And of course, this is as a therapist, I know, that's a hard thing to answer, because it's so it's different for different people. But yeah, it is. It's a great question. And it is so hard to answer. So let me this is a good time to talk about this different models. So there's the infusion model, where you're going to a clinic and you're getting IV infusions. And you're not sitting with a guide, or a therapist, you're, you know, they give you the medicine, make sure you're safe, and then they leave you and you're doing your own thing that is really geared towards helping your brain get more of the good neurotransmitters that it needs. And, and so that usually, when people do infusions, it's, as I understand it, it's usually two to three times a week. It can be up to that for several weeks. And so that's like an intensive period, and then wean to lower doses. But what happens is that you have to go back because the effects were off. So again, this is not my model. So I, I don't want to misquote but from what I understand the you know, you have to keep going back to get the ketamine in your system. And for some people, it's like, like literally life saving for people who've been suicidal. And so that can go on for years and years. Yeah. Wow, for maintenance. I'll just add in there. I do know, I have a friend who is a huge proponent of the IV infusions, and had a massive shift after nine of them. Aha, so So I just, that's the tricky thing, right? Is there can be what is prescribed or what is thought to be something but this is a someone who really does her own work and her starting place. And it may have been a, you know, she already had a lot of resource that she went in with. So who knows? And that's the tricky thing. And was she able to then stop the ketamine and things have stuck for her? Yeah, that's my understanding was that she did nine intensive, you know, and at this particular clinic that I know of in Menlo Park, they do offer a little bit of pre and post conversation people, not much. Yeah, some clinics do offer more integration. You know, there's a wide range of the clip that they're offering at clinics to some, there's no guidance, and some don't see a therapist, you could see a therapist in this session, or after the session in person or virtually. Yeah, so that's great. And that and you said she's done a lot of room work. And I would imagine that has a lot to do with it. Right? Yeah, yeah. And so with the ketamine assisted therapy, that the goal is to be able to help a person to integrate the changes into their lives so that they're not reliant on the medicine really buried, how you were saying, how many treatments or how long does it last, I mean, somebody that's got complex trauma, that's going to be a much longer treatment. Because the wiring happens when you know, if you're young, and you've experienced trauma, in your intimate attachment relationships, that's more deeply hardwired into your system. And so there's, you know, there's lots of help, you can do lots of work to grow and change and heal, but it is going to take a longer time. And it also depends, well, how much therapy have you done? afford that? Are you have you do you have a meditation practice? No. Or is this brand new to you? So yeah, so there's some people who, you know, I work with who they do a series of, say, three sessions. And we do some integration, and I help them connect with other resources. That's part of what I do is to, you know, and what ketamine assisted therapist will do is help be a bridge. As you get to know the person you connect them to, oh, this would be a good person to send you to really get to know tailored to each person, but then to some people do a series a series and then they feel like Oh, I'm done. Now I'm ready to go. Other people say oh, yeah, I feel like we're are starting something now or when it continues. So they might maintain, they might do a video every other week for a while, or they might do once a month, or they might come back in six months and say, Okay, I'm gonna go integrate all the work we just did and then come back for like a booster, you know? Or they may just feel like, oh, you know, months later, okay, it feels like the right time to come back and do a session. So it, there's really not an answer of how long it takes, or how many sessions? Yeah, it's always such a hard question, you know, someone will come to see me for trauma therapy. Yeah, they ask that question, whether it's like, no sexual trauma or otherwise, and how long do I need to come. And I remember when I first started doing somatic therapy, in my mid 20s, or early 20s, my coach at that time said, you can accomplish in two years with somatic work, but it takes 20 years to do and talk therapy. And that was, that's true for me, in terms of directly addressing things versus just talking and reactivating the nervous system, yes. And what I would say, it's this piece of your starting point. And if it's developmental trauma versus incidental trauma, which is, you know, a particular event that occurred that was singular, really makes a difference in terms of how deeply entrenched and impacted your nervous system is, yes. And something you know, you as a somatic therapist, I know you teach a lot of practices to people, and that's something that's so important is, well, what is a person doing with the work that they come to the sessions for, whether it's psychotherapy, or whether it's psychedelic work, and they're, you know, psychedelics are such a, they're coming, they're in the mainstream now. And one thing I would say about, you know, a caution is, you know, it's not a magic bullet, you know, and you can hear like, oh, you can do, you know, a psychedelic session is like having 20 years of psychotherapy, and, you know, if a person's coming in to kind of be fixed, you know, like, I'm one of having this experience, and then my life is going to be different. I have heard stories personally from people where that does happen. But it's very, it's that's not the norm. There are these exceptions, where people have a completely life changing experience, and, and that lasts, but that's yes, really the exception to the rule. And it's, I think of it as a catalyst, any of these medicines are a catalyst for change, they show you what you need to work on. Exactly. They're a doorway, they're a doorway, and then the, you have to make the changes in your life, right? It's, and that's, you can find your own bliss. But you also then have to, you know, it's internal and external, right there. There's the internal of how you think tank seal, let you let the narratives that you're living are inside of yourself. And then there's like, oh, well, am I really isolated person? Well, okay, now you can have to go out and take note, are you willing to go out and take some risks? And if you have social anxiety, right? Are you willing to go out and try to meet some new people or join a group of something, you know, it's like, the medicines not going to make you do that. But it may help you feel a little more confident in yourself to do that. And then if you take those steps, you're going to start feeling the changes. But that right, you know, it is not a magic bullet. And it's so different what people experience. With medicine, it's so very different. Well, and even every time, right, just like a medication, every time you sit, you don't have the same meditative experience or ability to focus or connect with yourself. And the same thing with any medicine. And this piece is so important. And I just want to take a highlighter and like, highlight it 10 times that I don't take responsibility for fixing anyone, right? It's like, you know, I want to give you the tools to help yourself. Yeah, and to support yourself. And then nothing can really do that. And I think that there are some people who do come in with that hope. And I can understand, and when there's an experience of such deep powerlessness, or hopelessness, they're just like, at or despair, like, I just want this thing to fix me. Yeah. And think of it more like we're going to co create and help you take responsibility for your life. Yeah. And feel the support to do that, right? Because a lot of people, they don't know how to do that or feel that because they didn't get that from their caretakers. So these are therapists are proxies, right? Yes, we are a stand in and we will show you what support can feel like, right? Yeah. And so this is one of the things I'll really impressed by and I would love for you to answer this side effects of ketamine. What do people need to be concerned about or not concerned about? Yeah, so for long term side effects, there are really not many, there are. One thing you have to watch out for if you are using it on a regular basis is bladder problems that can cause urinary tract issues. But the good thing is, if you notice that's happening, it's reversible, if you stop using it, then you will be okay. But you have to let your practitioner know it's that something that happens, but that's usually for people who are using it on a regular basis. And really, other than that, I don't think there are any other long term side effects there are positive, but talking about negative side effects, but you know, there are positive side effects feelings of clarity, feelings of increased better mood, feeling more connected to yourself and the world. Those are side effects. Yeah, that's true. And in terms of the immediate use, the first time I ever did, it was with you on you know, a loss and and I felt so I felt very even during it, I felt very functional. I just felt like I was in a waking dream, like I could have opened my eyes and moved around and felt fine. But what was remarkable to me was having taken this thing, and then after you left, I cleaned my house. You know, like I felt I didn't feel bad at all. When I did the intramuscular I there was first a loss engine and the intramuscular. And if you swallow the loss and which I've learned from you, right, that there's more likely hood that you'll feel nauseous, which was very true for me. I felt very nauseous moving after taking the ketamine. Yeah, but with you, I didn't swallow that. And I didn't feel nausea. Yeah, right. So the short term, the immediate side effects can be some dizziness, a little bit of numbness, tingling in the mouth is because nausea can be a side effect. Usually the doctor that I work with, anyone that you work with can prescribe an anti nausea medication and can take right before you take the lozenges can Yes, spitting them out, helps mitigate that problem. Usually, sometimes people do sometimes people will have nausea after the session, it varies on what people feel. Sometimes people are really tired. And so they go home, and they just take a really good long nap, which is a great way to integrate. Sometimes people can get a headache, some people have that reaction. And so either people are tired, or they feel energized, like the next day, usually people feel energized. But again, it really varies. I've had some people feel just offs after it, you know, a little bit out of that. So it really varies for each person I've had some people get sick after the session. So nausea and vomiting can happen. But if you take your anti nausea, and you spit the medicine out, instead of swallow it, usually, that's not a problem. You know, it really depends on the dosage too. I work in the low to mid range with people. So the key was saying, Oh, you could have opened your eyes in session and looked around. And that is what called the psycholytic Rage where you you still are aware of where you are, you know, then you can go into the next level of psychedelic range. And you can lose your sense of yourself. You know, I've had people ask, Am I here? Are you here, you know, so there's a dissolve the of the normal sets up the self that can happen? It's along those lines, I can share a little bit. And then I also have another question from someone who wrote in what was very interesting was I always had an observer, even when I was gone, when I felt like I didn't, in a way I didn't exist as me and as my body. My consciousness and I don't know if this is just because I've done a lot of meditation, and I have a strong observer, if that's the case for everyone, but this question is really interesting. And it relates to that, which is, how close can I come to death with the option of safely returning on? And if so, yeah, go ahead. That's a really great question. And it's, you know, that's when you get into the higher doses. Although I will say the dose is very dependent on each person, what's very, you know, like 100 milligram lozenge that's the smallest. Usually the amount that we get, that's some people barely feel that they just feel relaxed and softened a little bit and other people can have a very big journey on that and see the cosmos. So it really ranges so wet but The higher doses, it you know, people have talked about it, the Psychonauts in the psychedelic realm have talked about psychedelics being a practice for death. And so some people in higher doses of ketamine, and this hasn't happened and people that I've worked with, because we're not working in that range, but yes, people can experience that they're dying. And for some people, that can be a frightening experience, especially if there's not a lot of preparation. For some people, it's a very freeing experience. Because what's often the case is they experienced that they die, and that there's something much larger, that they're okay, there's a sense of okayness, you know, the psilocybin, a lot of psilocybin studies that have happened, have been with people with terminal cancer, or terminal illnesses. And so while you know, the psilocybin doesn't cure the disease, people have come out of those sessions feeling much more at peace with their depth, there's a sense of, I'm going to be okay. And so their anxiety is reduced. And so if ketamine can also help with that, but those are at the higher doses, that's, you know, it's known as the ego dissolution. And it allows us to step out of this realm that we know that the, this plane, this concrete plane, not tell you, you know, my dad, as you know, passed away, just last month, and I became very aware that the personal psychedelic work that I have done, helped me so much to go smooth that and to feel I still feel so connected to him. Now, even though I know he's not on this plane, I just don't have any doubt that we are still connected, and that I can still talk to him and we can relate to each other. And this is, it's just a knowing in my boat, it might sound crazy to some people that are listening to this, but this is often what people experience a connection with that larger world. So to go back to that listeners about death, that is that is an experience that people will have, um, ketamine and other psychedelics can be that can be life changing. And hopefully, it's positive, but not scary. It can be. I've heard of people having that experience and having it be very scary and traumatizing. Yeah, I want to, I want to answer that as well. But I also just want to say, I'm so glad that you're sensing him and feeling him. And I really believe that to be true. And I think that when you expand your consciousness beyond the three dimensional realm, yes, sir, have a spiritual practice, that you really have a sense of, you know, his spirit beyond his physical body, and happiness. I really talk to my friends who have passed, I feel them and they're still my confidants and my advisors. Yes, right. We hold them inside of us. And there are just other I mean, this is what we know from this working, there are other realms, and we can see or explain or prove, sorry, I might have already said this. But I think it's such a good one, that the experiences that one can have through psychedelics can really prepare us for death. Yes, because when we look at life, now, this is we're in a series of transitions, of coming together and letting go right beginnings and union and separation and bursts being the first one. Death, at least in this physical form, death being the final one out separating from our bodies, practicing that in psychedelic realms, that allows a person to have more ease, lifts that final transition, or its final in this realm. Absolutely. There I own a light called the Lucia number three hypnagogic light machine that was invented by a neurologist and a psychologist in Austria. And the psychologist had a near death experience as a kid and wanted to create something to help people face their fear of death. And that was the origin of this light. And my friend who passed away it's almost the exact year anniversary of her death in 2021. She had a near death experience and tried the light and after five minutes under the light, she had said, that was it. Like it's all love it what it was my experience of dying. Yeah. So knowing that and knowing that we do have access, whether it's very controlled through a light machine that you can open your eyes or close your eyes, you know, or whether it's a longer journey, that there are these different things that we can do. Who to prepare our beliefs about what death is and what that transition is in Crete a little more ease in our nervous systems? Yes. While there are some other questions, I really want to get this piece around transitions. And I know you've gone through a series of transitions lately, Carrie, and if you're open to talking about them, your son went away to college, your band, rosin, Coven is disbanding, which has been a huge part of your creative world for I think, like 20 years or something. Can you 25? Wow, right? And 25? You know, and then your dad, of course, is that losing a parent is one of the biggest transitions we can go through. It's like an untethering. What do you do to support yourself through these big transitions? What's a resource for you? And then also, what's next for you creatively? Yeah, resourcing, and what's next. So writing is something that I always turn to in times of transition and types of difficult feelings. No journaling, especially in the morning, when I'm closer to the dream world. Now you could kind of morning pages is a lot of people have heard of, and practice that really helps me to keep that thread till it's under the surface, so I can just process it in that way. And the journey was like, you know, I've been doing that on and off for decades. And it's like a best friend. Because it's always there for me, never judging me, I could put whatever I want, and there are outlandish, or how horrible whoever it is, I could put it on. So writings of big land being in nature. bit in my garden, I'm looking out at my garden right now. And that always connects me to the cycles of life, I'm sure you have that experience in your garden, you just see it right there. You know, seeds, the amazingness of seeds growing and flourishing to their fullness and then dying, and then they decay and go into the earth and the word rooms, get them and pull them out and make new soil. And I mean, this is life. So connecting with that. Yeah, I'd say those are two things that really helped me and being in connection with people. Yeah. They're so easy to connect with and love. You know, and I'm just really, I'm really glad to know that you have lots of support. And yeah, yes, I and that's so big to with the loss that I learned. Just share this experience that I had, when my dad was dying, I was looking out I was out, like, bathroom window has this beautiful view of laying the bed. And it was almost, it was like a three quarter moon, one of those giant orange moons that's really low to that array that big and flat and I was looking out at the moon and I was feeling in my heart. Like, oh, my dad is dying, how big that was and the emotions around that loss. And then at the same time, I was feeling so many people had been so get off it clamped so kind and loving people, you know, my close friends showing up and then people that, you know, I haven't been that close to are just shocked at how people just reached out and gave their support. And I felt my heart. Like oh my god, my heart is just opening wider and wider tall on both the laws and the love, just feeling like oh, this is like, to me, this is how I'm growing in my life of just expanding my heart to hold that that whole range of our human experience that we all have gone through and are going to keep going through robbing and letting go. And, you know, we can't stop that. Yeah, just the openness of the heart. Yeah, that heartbreaking open. Yes. It's heartbreaking. Yes. breaking open to Baker. Yeah, you know, you and your ex partner founded the Edwardian bow. And it's coming to a close as I believe the last year that it's happening is oh the Edwardian ball will keep going okay, but rosin coven? My band, this will be our last year of performing here. Are we there since the beginning? Yeah, it'll be our last year there. And it will continue and for you creatively is are there any other musical projects or anything else that's on the horizon for you? Well, I see I'll really open right here I'll show, you know collaborating, how and how yeah, there's a project with some of the members of rosin cabin. So the ladies of bras and Kevin Lila and death and another good friends to meet at a project called the dream hive collectives that dudes do a year long cycle of interactive, it's kind of a mix of performed mansion, ritual and play, and each one is different, and they're on the solstices and the equinoxes. And each one is going to be a completely different experience, we just had the first one. And that's been really fun to collaborate in that way. And musically, what I really am doing want to be moving more into is bridging that the musical stuff into the psychedelic spaces more, because music is such an important part of journeying. And so working with live music, I actually am excited to be starting ketamine groups this year. So that's something that I want to play with little bat music in that space. Because there's, you know, usually in this model in the mainstream news playlist played, then that can be very powerful. But I'm really interested in how the tuning to the energy that's happening space and working with music and voice, how that could be just a part of the healing process. Yeah. And so you know, there are certain there are people out there that have particular interest in accessing their voice or working with sound, and you might be a particularly good fit. Is that, right? Yes, I haven't done as much of it lately. But I used to do embodied singing workshops, called Pandora's box and work with people individually. With voice, it just hasn't been as much of a focus lately. But yeah, I love working with people and helping them find their voice, you know, it's both literal and symbolic. The voice is such a vulnerable and powerful part of us, I consider it like an extension of our body. Absolutely. Yeah, by vibrationally, energetically, you know, being willing to be visible and to be heard. Yes, and so many people have had just crushing things said to them about their voice that has been shut down. So I hope everyone feels encouraged to, to sing and find their own voice, you know, sing in the shower, singing in the car, just love your voice. Because it is such an important part of being alive. So along those lines, you know, I often ask guests, I often ask guests, what embodied sexuality or and freedom means to them. And so related to this, what is an embodied voice and freedom there? And what does that mean to you? And you if you want to talk about sexuality, you can talk about sexuality. But I you know, I see it all as an extension of our lifeforce and our essence and how it gets expressed. Yeah, I so I used to train in martial arts and my sisu was there was the key is that when he made when he would get punched, or get, you make a sound to deflect it, and her definition of a key iOS spirit meeting, key, an eye spirit meeting, so it's your spirit meeting the world. So she would say, you know, the key AI is going to sound a little bit different, you have to find your own sound. And that always stuck with me because I think of that in terms of embodied singing or in body voice doesn't have to be singing, but you know, your voice in the world. So I think we all have an authentic voice. And I do think being able to tune in to what's happening bodily and explore in there is the pathway into finding that and cultivating it, you know, knowing what your own sound is not trying to sound like somebody else but no What is your pure sound and just practicing and playing play? I think, you know, we have that as children. Children are just being their natural selves, they will go around singing and not Mandela and how many making up songs and then we lose that. So I think it's about refining that connection, that spontaneity and that's just that just gorgeous life or See no child singing so you can sign that in yourself again, we have songs inside of us that want to come out. I really believe that. I love that. I love that. And it's very much you know, my intention for my birthday this year is in celebrating myself and welcoming myself into the world. And I feel like whether it's you have a child or an animal, I know I make up ridiculous songs and sing them to my dog. And this playfulness, right, that playful spirit continuing to support that part of myself and make time for more plays so important. So I love that encouragement. Yes. And feel it a freedom to do that. Just be as out there as you want. Hallelujah. Sister, me? Yes. And along those lines are Is there any practice that you would like to guide our listeners in? That you know that you talked about practices after journeys, for the purpose of integration? And supporting perhaps this embodied freedom? Is there something that you would like to lead us in? Sure, yeah, I have one in mind. Yeah. So this is connecting back to that heart opening place. And this is a rose in the heart meditation. And I'll credit Kathy skipper and Laurie and Birchmeier. Her work with essential oils in the ketamine space. And they taught this heart meditation. So I love this and I'd love to share it. Yeah. So yeah, just find a comfortable position that you want to sit or lay down in. Just take a few deep breaths is letting go of any distraction, so that you can just tune into your breath and be concrete all the way down into belly. That's great. Good like to place one hand over your heart, one hand over your belly to see like breasts meaty, your hands so she your chest and your belly rise and just to imagine a beautiful rose right at the center of your heart. That can be any color that you like, just couldn't see what's there. What color rose just here in your heart. And as you breathe in, this rose just starts to bloom peddled start to unsettled. And this rose just keeps on opening, like an eternally blossoming rose. And as you breathe in, just feel that sense of the rose in your heart and the color letting it spread. Just feeling how far does it spread from the center of your heart out into the rest of your body. Just beautiful petals, the last of the opening and exporting can can you feel yourself in the middle of this rose, just what the feeling is here. meter can even smell the rose. There are lots of different kinds of roses or different kinds of scents to see like this. The scent of Miss rounds is an unfolding, blossoming blooming. Like feel your whole body, your whole chest, your front sides all the way around your back. Three dimensions of yourself. Go all the way up into your head down your art. Down here, lower body and legs can feel it blooming through your feet and backing neck deep. And then if you like you can extend it beyond your physical body and see how far out rose wants to unfold. And if you just if it just stays cold close to you, that's great. Man, if it wants to extend, it can extend out and maybe there are people outside of you that you want to just invite into that rose into this rose with you in the sound is blooming rose energy to people that you know could be people that are struggling in parts of the world that you don't know. Just want to send this energy to then when you're ready, come back to your old body and take a scant notice what you're feeling inside kind of sensations at present. Is there a feeling or feeling? Be feel warmth or coolness has. feel any energy movie personally feel stillness, whatever, it's here, just be with that. Yeah, bringing yourself back into the room that you're in, you can hear the sounds in the row. You feel the temperature air are bound to go opening your hand. And again, just noticing what's inside and see taken room around you. And I hope to take this blossoming, where I was with you into your day. Thank you, Carrie. That was so sweet. And in particular, because you also go by the name rose. I was like yeah, carry blooming in my heart. Yeah, that's been part of the transition that I've been in. Yeah. The Rose. So sweet. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun to connect with you and all these different levels. Birthday twin, happy birthday. Thank you Happy birthday to you. I love you so much. I love you so much. And how can all of my beautiful listeners find you and be blessed by having you in their life? My website is embodied So that's E M B or D IEDB. e i n And you know, you can get all the information there. I have a podcast that I haven't worked on in a nice couple years at least it's called the fertile void. The Edwardian versus omega just totally fun and adventurous and celebratory. You can go to Edwardian and get tickets and go it's a delight of all the senses and very participatory. Unfortunately, this will launch on our birthday. So it'll be after the oh it will be after the ball. Yeah, I I know. But But next year is ball next year go next year. Yeah, it's usually it's always around and to January early February. Beautiful. Big hugs. Big hugs. Thank you char I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. Throughout the interview, I was thinking to myself how incredibly blessed I am living in the Bay Area and having the quality of friends and people around me that I do. I just I don't take it for granted. And it is what I'm really used to and I am really, really blessed. So I hope you get a little flavor of that and that you find the like minded people in your world and people that will open your eyes and open your heart to what is possible. Thanks for joining us today and happy birthday to my fellow Aquarian brothers and sisters all over the world. In order to support the podcast I've started a Patreon. If you're like me and new to Patreon it is an opportunity to give back to a person or show that you feel has contributed to your life, wellness and growing wisdom. Today I'm asking you if you feel my existence and the work I do in the world makes a difference. Please show me a tangible offer of your support back. The more people that join the more exclusive content I'll be adding for members only. You can find my T ar e yo backslash hash la IDOPNPO de Cast To learn more about how you can support our community. If you found this podcast helpful share it with anyone you can any way you can. Please rate review, and share it with friends so others can find our community of healing. You can also follow me at late open podcast on Instagram and Facebook, and read more about my work at passionate Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself.

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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