Lucy Wallace of Dance to be Free

Transformation Through Movement with Lucy Wallace

I was thrilled to have Lucy Wallace, the founder of Dance to be Free, as a guest. I strongly support her mission of bringing dance to incarcerated women to help heal trauma. I share a little about my own experience growing up with a father who was in prison and my own volunteer work teaching kids in an orphanage in Nepal so they could teach their peers. This coincides with Lucy’s program, as she identifies the importance of the teacher training program for the prisoners rather so they can continue to help people instead of going in to “save” them. 

In addition, we talk about how this mission found her and unfolded with dedication despite all of the bureaucracy inside the prison system and how this transformative program has grown into over 15 prisons nationally. We also explore a variety of other topics that align with Lucy’s work and her program including how trust is earned, holding space versus preaching, and how freedom is a perception and state of mind.  

We end the episode with a practice Lucy uses with her students that you can also use.

Show Notes Welcome back to laid open podcast. This is your host Charna Caselle. I've launched a Patreon for my podcast if you feel you've received value from these episodes, you can also get additional bonus exclusive content, such as meditations, in depth exercises, and behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. All of that and more is TREON dot c o m, backslash l AIDOPENPODC A S T. By supporting us on Patreon you're not only contributing to the creation of this podcast, you will also provide the support needed for me to work on my book, workshops, online courses and additional free content. Today's guest is Lucy Wallace. Lucy has been dancing since she was eight years old. In 2010, she bought a boulder based dance studio after receiving her master's degree in psychology. Her psychology background informs her therapeutic and cathartic teaching style that led to the birth of dance to be free. Welcome Lucy life is about to start trauma extension is a great honor to Osiris calm. So thrilled to have you here. Thank you so much. So I have to say, you know, I came across I hadn't I didn't know about your nonprofit tends to be free until earlier this week. And when I saw this short, documentary, little mini video about the work that you're doing, I was so moved, and I couldn't stop crying. And part of it was grief. And part of it was gratitude. And you know, for a variety of reasons. But I immediately was moved to be like this is the organization that I'm going to donate to on a monthly basis. This work is so essential. And so first, I just want to say thank you. Yeah, thank you, because I felt like your immediate support just through Instagram, like, boom, you were like there you were connecting me with other filmmakers donating this week. So he'll, you're so welcome. I was really excited when you wanted to come on the podcast and just want to learn more about how I can support you and how listeners can support the work that you're doing. And to hear more about your story and how you came to to, you know, be inspired to create this nonprofit. Yeah, thanks. And I appreciate the conversation. Because sometimes when I'm interviewed, it's not a conversation. Like let's just talk this is so this is very sweet. Yeah, it's wild how it all began because I had no prison background. I hadn't really incarcerated I had never worked in a prison. I like a pretty privileged and lucky life from Long Island. I dance since I was eight, in like the uptight ballet world where there was favorites, and Titian and not a lot of joy. Not a lot of like expression. It was just kind of tight and competitive. And then I was a dance major at Ohio University. And then I dropped out and went to Naropa in Boulder and stopped dancing for about a decade. Wow, I look back on Wow, because I was really lost. And I didn't know it. I was like I didn't know my purpose. Oh, and then I went to grad school to get a master's in psychology and went to Naropa University where it was like very much traditional, very experiential. It's a Buddhist school. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's kind of well known, but when we talked about trauma, it was not like a lecture. It was like therapy with a group therapy. And so that just says, To view trauma as something physical in the body and so I didn't really want to work one on one people in Boulder My Fire was just I know Pain is pain, and we can all have pain even if we've had a pretty good life. Like, just didn't feel it. And so I dance studios, I'll back up, I started this beautiful woman, Sean tall, Toronto, who started emerging women. Anyway, she was my mentor, she taught me how to teach. Sorry to interrupt, she taught you how to teach dance, where she taught you how to teach what, like. So she was teaching a class called Soul sweat in Boulder that was taking her class and just loving it because it was so much more cathartic and so much more joyful. And it was really, really just a beautiful class. And then she was pregnant, and said, I'm going to do a teacher training and think you should do it. And I was like, No way. And so when I hear the women go through that same process in prison, I totally understand. She taught like a dozen of us how to learn the kind of pieces that go into a class that make it you know, high energy, a variety of movement, a variety of music, so it's not just like one note. And then I started teaching in 2007. And then I was getting my masters then in 2010, a dance studio called alchemy of movement here in Boulder. And I did that for six years. And in the middle of it when he 15. Just sitting at the desk, and just like how do I pay the bills? This is an empty room and expensive town, like how do you really pay the bill? Studio? My boyfriend at the time was like, what if you made the dance studio into an office? And I was just, I have no idea what entails. And then this woman walked in who I was about to have a meeting with about something totally separate and ran the idea by her. And she said, Well, what if you brought dance to women in prison, and you had like a shoot of a knock at the dance studio? And I was like, wow, how haven't thought of that, because this is such a traumatized population, like people would come to my studio in Boulder and say, This place keeps me out of jail. And then I was just like, Oh, my God, I don't know what I would be doing with that dance. So I just literally made it up out of thin air. Wow. I didn't know of a prison nearby. I didn't actually know there's a women's prison in Denver. Yeah, I and I didn't know who to call. I didn't know where to start. But I got this awesome CPA who got me a 501 C three status. I built a website, I did a Kickstarter, got a hold of this captain in Denver women's correctional facility, and then just trained and went in on July 1 2018. And I didn't like do much. Rep. I wasn't like I didn't change what I do. I just did what I did in Boulder in prison. And they were so responsive. And so I went every week for about six months. And then by this point, I had a small board of directors. And one of them said, what if you teach them how to teach? Yeah, like, Whoa, that's a whole nother shift. And I started doing that in January 2016. And then we expanded to Pueblo, Colorado film, we were in Nebraska, and then Arkansas, Mississippi, and then that's how he kept growing was because of the teacher training model. Yeah. And so offender led programming is very well, it's not as unusual. But like, seven years ago, a lot of this stuff was not happening. It was kind of amazing. The approved, Colorado is very progressive. And some places are like you wouldn't think Nebraska has been one of our best experiences is the Wow. Braska. And so we get the most success when we have like the most involved staff. It's critical to have staff who care and are available, of course, well paid, because, you know, the poorer the state, the more complicated. Yeah, I want to I feel very compelled to share a little bit of my story with you and to say why this, like struck a particular chord for me. So my dad was in prison for most of my life. Well, I would say half of my life at this point, because I'm almost 50 And I would drive to Denver. My dad was in prison in Denver, and he actually had there's a program in prison. My dad identified as Buddhist. I was born in Nepal. And so Naropa was on my radar totally separately, like I in high school, thought about going to Naropa and I had a flyer for Naropa in my like little filing cabinet all those years I ended up at CIA S which is the the West Coast version of Naropa. And the only reason I didn't go to Naropa was because I had discovered dance late in life. And it really did help me heal tremendously and embody myself tremendously embody joy. And so I didn't want to disrupt my like, almost every day, I took a dance class all through grad school. So I don't know how you survived grad school without dance. But that was the time that was like, so essential for me. And I still managed to dance almost every day. And, and so, you know, when I was 15, and 16, I visited my dad in a in a prison in Colorado. And they did have a program that was supported by an Europa meditation program. And they would come and have like Dharma talks and things and, and so just, I've only been back to a prison once since that experience. And it was at San Quentin, and a friend of mine was doing a theater program with with inmates there. My background is in, I'm a somatic trauma therapist. And so now with all of that information and knowledge, walking through a prison, and sitting, and, and taking it all, in my nervous system, I like I couldn't stop crying. And it was like all of the emotion that I had packed on visiting my dad in prison. Right. So it was like, it was a highly emotional experience for me being back in a prison and, and just just certain things that you would do, like getting checked. And, and, and so watching that, that was, that was part of their emotional reaction, but then also just just the impact that the work that you're doing, is having for these women and some of their testimonials, about how their experience and these are still women that are that are still in prison, right, that are expressing, like, I feel free for the first time. And and I feel very strongly about and it's so frustrating. I wish I had all the money in the world so that I could give it to the organizations that need it and fund the programs that need it, you know that there aren't more mental health services and trauma services for all populations and an affordable way. And so I'm really curious to hear more about about some of the testimonials and experiences of these women, like during the programs, but also once they've been released. Wow. And I know I said a lot. Oh, it's a lot to like, then segue me immediately ask you a question. But like, what are the odds that Sony? Wow, yeah. And how long was he in prison for? Well, so he was first in prison in Thailand, from when I was five to, to 12 or 13. And then he got released. And then he got arrested. And then he was in prison until I was about 2122. And, and yeah, yeah, that's incredible. So most of your way. Well, I mean, it's funny, I used to say that, but now I'm like, I'm 47 years old. So you know, it's but but but most of my developmental life, you know what I mean? And so none of those years was he around, and he's kind of peripherally in my, in my life at this point. But just feeling for there was so much I imagined, when I watched this short, you don't even know how many minutes it was, but there was so much packed into it, but just imagining and knowing the children or the family members that are impacted by the women, not being there, you know, in their daily lives. And then in thinking about how, you know, so many of these women, the trauma, the developmental trauma, the sexual assault, and that's also something I work a lot with sexual trauma and in, in the work I do with clients, and a book that I'm writing and curriculum I'm creating. And, you know, I'm thinking about, Oh, my gosh, this, this could be a really essential doorway for them to a different a different possibility is getting lit up by simply being given a resource that should be a right to everybody. Right? You know, just thinking about, I'm so grateful that these people are being given the opportunity to feel themselves to emote, to connect, and, you know, I got really curious about not just their, their connection to themselves, but what was happening, what would happen in the class themselves, like the connection to one another, as well as the connection to the staff like these kind of ripples of impact that the work must be having. Yeah, yeah. And I don't I think when I started it, I didn't even realize how much have an impact because I didn't think about, like Nebraska said, culture change, because and part of that was because of the videos we did in Nebraska, that were really short for just interviewing the women showing them dancing, hearing their story put together like a five minute video very long time ago. And they then showed that to their staff. Yeah. And then the staff were like, Oh, they're human. And, you know, just such a lack of education around trauma. And so, right. That's like, my big thing is that when there's judgment, when there's anger, or when there's, like I said, in the AlJazeera, video, like a sense of retaliation, people don't understand how trauma leads to criminal behavior. And so if we just like, peel back the onion of like, was there sexual abuse? Was there in a black? Was there a poverty? Was there racism? Were they were they abandoned where it's in? Right? It's like Gabor Ma Tei is just such a hero. And he's like, basically, prison is holding the most traumatized people in our society. And then you have a staff that doesn't understand Trump. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. And so places like Colorado and Nebraska are exceptional. We just had a big fundraiser Sunday night, and the director of the Department of Corrections for Colorado spoke. He's just so and he and he doesn't even understand he said Lucy's always introducing me as some Renegade. And I'm not and I'm like, you are? Yeah. Lynch about AlJazeera. Phillip, I approached other prisons, it was no, we're not gonna let you see our women. We're not gonna let them say something bad or facility. Yeah, you have to wonder what's being hidden, right? In those cases, where it's like the systems, but it's like a, you know, family system when it's closed like that, where it's like, no, we want to keep our people silent, because we don't want them to expose what's actually going on, which so often, there's abuse happening in prison systems. And, you know, it's just like trauma and trauma and trauma. Yeah. Yeah. So the piece about the women, when they're coming together is so huge. And they actually a lot of them have a very strong sense of sisterhood. Where we get there, they're just like, they're each other's family. And they call each other like, you're my mother, or you're my grandmother. Like there's this whole thing. Yeah. It's everything. Like I went to North Dakota in June, and I had shipped DVDs of my classes so they could work out there. And then they could say, oh, I'm interested, I want to sign up. I had my opening circle with like, a dozen women never been there before. And I said, What made you sign up for this workshop? And this woman's like, I was hoping this better than the DVDs you sent? Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got to earn trust. I just laugh because so fierce, and she had no assets. And then she ended up being like, the biggest advocate right? Total, like a total mush. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we dance. Or Dean, we did this really deep, dark, difficult song. And it ended up being so beautiful, but it's hard getting there. But yeah, but it's a sense of, you know, one woman said to me, weren't my enemy comes here every Friday night. And I still show. Wow. And then yeah, it affects their families, they can't see them and they just talked to them on the phone. I'll get like a message through Facebook of like, my sister just did your training that she loved it. You know, a lot of my students are going to be in there a long time, whether it's Nebraska or North Dakota, or we're talking lifers, yeah. And utterly hopeless, is how I would feel in their, in their somehow positive and grateful. Yeah, and just I don't know, I think once you've lost everything, you kind of have like a different awareness about reality of like, what really matters, right? Well, there's a choice you can make, right? I mean, in anything, whether you're in prison or not, like there's a thing of going, I'm going to be victimized by this. And this is going to define my perception of reality, or I am going to find gratitude in the smallest thing. Yeah, you know, it'll blow my mind sometimes gratitude and perspective and when everything is taken away when you lose everything. You really hold what's left in from a different from a different perspective and in a different way that you want you You know, with certain freedoms, we take so much for granted. Right? We take so much for granted. So we went to Arkansas in the fall of 2021. Worked with what I thought was going to be, I think, one big group, but then we had to separate them into like a quadrant because we think six feet near each other. And so the hiccups around like, Okay, we're going to do this exercise, and now you're going to have to write the red tape of working with prisons, in, in and of itself is so hard, but then you throw a pandemic. So I know the staff was doing their best because it's like, how do you manage different barracks having to come in? And I I literally said in the opening circle, how have you all not had a nervous breakdown? Yeah. And this isn't, is this an opening circle with the staff as well as the inmates? Josie? I see. Yeah. I am so stressed. How are you coping and like you'll be giving, like motivational speeches because they, in certain prisons, they'll they'll be like, personal space is the size of a yoga mat. Right? In a pandemic, right. And that's how did it how did it not I mean, I know in certain prisons, a lot of people were getting very sick. So dying and locked down. So we're talking, couldn't write couldn't go outside. So our program definitely was affected. But considering I'm amazed, like we're doing okay, again, like we're going back in monthly, whether it's Tennessee or Pueblo, Colorado, or Nebraska, like, we're kind of back in action. It's still very hard in the Deep South, where it's really needed. You know, like, so much. Are you in Louisiana? I tried. Wow. Yeah. I will keep trying till Can you list that? I think I remember reading something like their 12 prisons or, or where, what are they? And where are they? So we started in Denver expanded to Pueblo, Colorado, into Nebraska and 2016. Then we went into Seattle, are right outside of Seattle Gig Harbor. And then we went to Little Rock and port Arkansas. So like, sometimes we're in two per state, two in Mississippi, one in Virginia, one in Tennessee, one in North Carolina, and one. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they welcome us. Oh, sorry, South Dakota, North Dakota. Also, those are pretty new for us. So the staff don't need to be convinced it's just logistics. Oh my gosh, that's where I bow down. I mean, I feel like there's so many things, so many communities, that I would love to make a difference. And I my Achilles heel is I have so little patience with bureaucracy. And I'm just kind of in awe of what it must take to do that, and the determination and the tenacity and the like, stick to itiveness that it must take for you and your your staff to do this work. Yeah. And then the fundraising. I mean, just holy cow. Yeah, those two pieces, the fundraising and red tape are the hardest, absolute hardest part of this whole program. And the red tape could be something like just getting a response, right? Just correspondence, and like, the staff is so overwhelmed, and putting out fires, or indifferent and don't care about their population. Or it's like, I like I went to Florida, and I had this awesome guy working with me for a few years. And then he got promoted. So then I'm like, I was on my own. And I you know, I was a guy like when I hear someone retiring, or some promoted a quitting, it's a big deal. And so that's, that's painful, right? Those are those relationships and advocates that you have inside the prisons where you're really dependent, like, somebody could have a different attitude or a different perception. And suddenly, the program gets cut, right. Holy cow. Yeah. So that that does get discouraging, and, you know, like going into it. It's like I've chosen maybe like the hardest thing. Well, it's, I mean, I have to say like, it's fascinating to me that you were like, yeah, yeah, no connection of the prison system. I didn't have any of that. Suddenly this woman out of nowhere, she goes, What about in prisons? It's like she could have said anything like well Where did that come from? I'm so curious what her connection to the prison population is. Because, you know, to me, yeah. And so what, what one of the other pieces that really resonated for me, I mean, I can't tell you there are so many layers that I was I was overcome. So as I mentioned, I was I was born in Nepal. And maybe nine years ago, now, I was laying on the a body working table, and my friend had just gotten back from Nepal, and she had been working with. And she was a dancer, and she was doing a dance and movement. And she has also bodyworker healing program with women who are sex workers in Nepal. And I, women and children. And I just, the tears started just kind of pouring out of my eyes, like I wasn't even necessarily having any thoughts. It was just something got activated in my system. And I just was like, Oh, my God, it's time when I was 16 was the last time I'd been there. And I wanted to stay. And I wanted to work with battered women, my family friend who had never left Nepal, who, who was still there, had created was had a program there. And I wanted to just stay, I didn't want to come back to the states and go back to school and everything. So in my mind, I'd always been like, I'm gonna go back. But I really needed to heal my own trauma before I was ready to I didn't even have the concept of that back then, right. But here, I was like full circle, you know, trauma therapists. And I was like, it's time. And long story short, I ended up going back to Nepal and working with a program that was offering trauma and resilience education to the staff in an orphanage. But then also, additionally, we created a program of teaching the kids. So they're about 300 kids, teaching the kids to teach each other life skills. So we were offering the trauma training and awareness to the staff so that they could have their own awareness to do their own work, but then also to work with the kids, right, and then the kids to work with each other. Because they're growing up there, right. They're there for so long. And so this idea that the population, as you said, the lifers, right, the people that are just like this is going to be their one lifeline. And this is something that they can just keep deepening into this practice, and that they can rest into that was very, very moving to me. So I just, and it's so beautiful, that you're teaching the kids to teach each other, I think that's the biggest piece of dance to be free. That we're handing the baton over. So there's no like white savior complex. Anything they're like, so I just had this big event on Sunday night, and some women who are now out were there. And they, for years, got in Pueblo, pandemic board after the pandemic, they were dancing with this woman named Mary, who was in there for armed robbery, she had the most sad path, you know, rate, almost sex trap, one was kidnapped, and then pill addiction. And so she was talking about, you know, being there. And it was as if it was Mary's program. You know, like, I'm so happy that, like, I'm not kind of when I sometimes go to Pueblo, for example. I'm like, Hi, I'm Lucy. Yeah, they don't even need to know and they're dancing every week with and I, you know, I'm kind of a new face. For some of them, like I I'm able to go back but other prisons and let them so sustain. That part is so big. Right? Well, I mean, the thing is, is that when you don't have to quote unquote, take, like, have ownership over something, when you can plant the seed and let it go, and then let like these other gardeners come and harvest the fruit and keep tending the garden. Yeah, you know, that's a really, that's a more potent model, because it's more sustainable. And you can have, you can feed so many more people. Yeah. Right. That's, that's the thing. It's like, as I sit, you know, you know, I have a private practice. And sitting in a room with these people. The reason I wanted to do the work in the poll is like, I'm not satisfied, just serving this small number of people, the the number of people that if I'm working individually, with people in a room throughout, like eight hours a day, that's a maxed out, and that's all and that's all that I can, you know, take the wisdom and the resources that I've invested in and pass it along. Like that's just not a big enough difference for me, right? It's a lot of work actually to work with eight people on a day, but Well, it's yeah, a lot of therapists are like, how many people do you know when I'm cutting back? But it's the whole thing is I'm like, I'm always looking for what are the models? What are the ways that Yeah, more people can be resourced and supported? And, and what you've done is you've created a system for that because if it was just you, if you're like, oh, Do you have to be the teacher? Then? Right? What happens? You can only serve one you can be in one prison. Right? Yeah. And I've had donors repeatedly say you need to replicate yourself. I'm like, no, no, no, the women in prison are replicating me. Like I don't really want people out from coming in. And that's like, mostly how people reach out to me. They'll say, like, I would love to dance with you in prison. I'm like, Who wouldn't? And then, what? What is that? Like? I don't know. That's a difficult for me. But yeah, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Say that, again, I want the inmates to sustain it. Because they, they know what's needed. They know how to shift it. Like, I don't understand what they're going through in terms of prison culture. And so I feel like I want them to take over and then I want when they're out, and free to go back. Yeah, another part of the vision is like, Mary will, Mary will, will replicate me or there's this woman from the video, Claudia, who was suffered an amputation, and she's just going to be incredible when she gets out. Like, I can't wait for that, like, I want them as the leaders versus Yeah, well, then there was a woman in your video who had become a yoga teacher was that Mary or that's, that is Mariappa was Noel Noel. And, and, you know, she, one of the things is, it's like, this is what's so important to me about dance. Dance is a form of embodiment. And what what happens with what people don't get, it's like, with all that trauma, you leave your body. Because it's not it's such an intelligent strategy to not feel the devastation of what's happening inside you. It's like, one way is to get away, you're not even home, you're not even in your physical skin for so much of what is occurring, the choices you seem to be making or things that are happening to you. And so you basically invited people back into their own body to claim it as home. And what's what I'm really curious about, it's like, okay, that that space where they are able to feel safe enough, because that's the complex place that place where okay, you can come back in, but it can be it's terrorizing to be in a body where there's been, you know, you've been assaulted. Yeah, right. So like the fact that they were able, somehow you created enough safety, that they're able to come back in for long enough and through dance, own their own bodies back. And then feel the confidence like that was Noel specifically spoke to a level of confidence that she felt in, you know, and then she's like, I wouldn't have felt confident enough to become a yoga teacher. Right? Yeah, yeah, there's so many good points you just made and the safety piece is so big. And I'm always amazed how more women are triggered and running out of the room, or screaming or whatever. And amazing, might be the DVDs, sometimes I send before I go there, and they fall flat. If you don't know the program, and you haven't met me and stuff. So I can maybe I can see how, like, that's not very triggering. Come in person. I start with just like breathing and play. Mm hmm. And, and just that whole emphasis is like, we're not here to get it right. We're not here to be cool or look good. And they have fear. And they'll talk about it. And you have a lot of circle time. And there'll be tears of like, I feel like I have to get this right if I'm going to lead and then they've been waiting your most beautiful poetry about how they got through that, like, self critic and inner hatred. And I just feel like, the movement solves so much. Yeah, you have to do a lot of talking. And we can't we write the dance, the stretch, we dance, we watch videos, we dance, poetry, but I'm not like, I'm not talking a lot about trauma. I do say like, we're here to help women heal from trauma and but I'm not like going into it a lot. I'll talk a little bit about shame. And now I can show this longer video because we've never had this 15 minute clip, but it just seems like by the end of day one, there's always a shift. It's amazing. Or even like the first hour because the laughter Oh my god, yes. Oh my god. So working with the with the folks in Nepal. So we you know, we'd have like, multiple weeks like day every day. We're doing these during a training, but we would take lots of tie breaks and and so during those breaks, what naturally occurs is basically dance party. like music, dancing and singing spontaneously, like, just like, it's just like, it's like, as if you're in a movie, right? Like you think in musicals, oh, that doesn't happen. Well, this would totally happen and the amount of laughter and I was like, Oh my God, in the West are so freakin heavy and focused on analyzing and talking about everything. And so much can get handled through the body. And just this incredible wisdom, you could just watch them with like, Okay, we've just talked about all this really heavy stuff. And what are we gonna go do? We're gonna dance and play right now. And they totally self directed that. Right? They just organically as part of their culture. Yeah, right. So beautiful. It's so interesting, because like, Patrice and Noel were two women in the AlJazeera video who were I met them one time. In like, 2018. Like all my god, the ripples are are still beyond me. Like, I don't even think I really talked to either of them one on one ever. Hmm. And so yeah, like I went to North Dakota in September, and the women walked in, like, visibly depressed, not smiling. And unlike in there, like, we haven't danced all summer. Or dorm is a nightmare. Like just serious, heavy stuff. I mean, you have like a few bad apples in the dorm. And oh, yeah, everyone's on edge. I guess there's like, plumbing issues. And then I just listened. And I just said, Okay, let's start moving. I never really give advice. I mean, I never give advice. I never really give a lot of feedback. I just listen and don't, you know, chime in with thing like what they could do? Well, I mean, there's this, there's a beautiful, there's a humbleness, right. And you're also really recognizing you're like, I know nothing. Yeah, like, I really, I really don't know your experience. I'm not going to pretend to I'm not going to be like, there's a brighter day. Pass. Like, like, here, let me serve you a plate of platitudes. Know, what the fuck? Oh, yeah. And I bring in people sometimes with me, friends, board member impulse to kind of whatever, give wisdom, and I'm just like, so just I think the only thing I really tried to emphasize is like, cuz of the trauma you've survived, it affected your behavior. So please, no, like, just live the shame off of why I'm a bad person, or I deserve to be here. I try to just separate, like, try to address shame some way. It's such a I mean, I draw this little chart that I learned from a colleague that was specifically working a lot in domestic violence. And it's a little chart of emotions. And at the very bottom, there's powerlessness and the very top there's power, and there's powerlessness. And then it's shame. And then it's blame and guilt. And so basically moving upwards, so you know, it's like a no fear, sadness, anger, right underneath power. And the more you move up there, at least, they're less vulnerable emotions. And when you move down, there's the most vulnerable emotions right and shamed right above powerlessness. And shame feels so horrible. Yet, it's better than feeling powerless, right? It's like a false sense of at least I can blame myself for something at least I can believe I should have done it better than like, I don't have to feel into how utterly powerless I am. And so it's like, and we all know how horrible it feels to feel shame. Right? And, and so to but there's this thing of we, we think we have to say so much more. And it's ironic Here I am, like, I have a podcast, right? And we talk talk talk, but I emphasized practice, in my, in my practice in working with people and one of my teachers used martial arts based practices. And I can absolutely affirm that you can sit and talk to me, you can pay me to listen and there is some value. Absolutely. We need to you know, we want to be heard. We want to have people acknowledge and validate our experience. But I I really believe that practice and that's what you're doing, right? You're putting people's bodies into a new state. Your opening, you're going, everything has had to be shut down, to feel okay and to feel safe. And that's the habit. Let's open And that's where when you open it's a very different shape than shame. Right? Like, you're like you do this versus you do this and you know, you close and you collapse. And so you're just really gently inviting people into a different shape. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Brene Brown says, shame survives and secrecy. I think once they start in our journal prompts are really pretty simple. Just, you know, describe a happy memory, or I'll have a prisoners pole. inspire them to write a poem. Yeah, it's beautiful. That's when they really open verbally, but it's not like a feedback response. It's just like, Okay, what, what would you like to share? Now? What do you want to share now? And so I think all of that, then we're like, Oh, my God, I'm not alone. Yeah, that piece is so I mean, what's crazy, right? You think like, they're all these people, and they could be living together for 20 years. But the the isolation, like when your physical body is shut down, right, and you're also not encouraged to emotionally share with one another? Like, you're so alone, yet you're with other humans, and there's nothing worse. And so you're like, you're, you're actually, I see it almost like you're lighting up these little thin copper lights of fascia between everybody in the community. And they're like, oh, whoa, wait. We're all human having this experience? Yeah. Yeah, I know, like, in North Dakota this summer, they were just like, isolating. Right, right. Because that's, that's the only option. Yeah, I can't even fathom. And then just like, so open. So willing, amazing, you know, to do weird exercise, or heavenly sounds while they're making a move. It's just to break them out of like, I gotta be, you know, right. Now. It's an Woohoo, yeah, it's so much fun. And so they're just like, they just become like, 10 year olds. And my sense is they've been robbed of a childhood, getting like a little childhood experience. And the like, leadership, so it's all within like, three days. I was wondering, so it's like, is it are there? So it is each class? How long does each class last? And then how long is the training my classes when I teach a boulder or prison or one hour, basically, like nonstop, super sweaty, super high dancing, and then stretching. And then the trainings are three hours a day, three days in a row. And I was teaching them how to choreograph for the past seven years, and that gets hard. Yeah, meaning for me, it's that's where some like group dynamics come up. And so now I'm playing with teaching the how to lead material that's already been choreographed versus choreographing. Yeah. Because the the nuts and bolts are not, it's not like choreographing point. Right. Right. Then beautiful to choreograph for all these years and have each prisoner own a song. I feel like that's our movements. And then our movements are being danced by another prison. And so like Al Jazeera was dancing Florida's move. Oh, my God. So cool. Do you know about rhythm and motion? Have you heard of rhythm and motion? So rhythm and motion is a is an organization, a nonprofit here? Maybe it's not nonprofit, it's an organization that basically their thing is anyone can dance and and what they do their system is, let's say there are each teacher is the DJ. Right? So you have like, let's say there are 200 songs, and each song is already pre choreographed. And then you have these different teachers and the teachers are all taught this set choreographed routines, and each week, there's the same choreographed routines, you could go to a class and the same choreographed routines are going to be taught at least two of the classes, right, so that you, you keep learning those and then they'll be cycled through. And then you next week, maybe a few of those dance routines of songs are still in the routine set of seven, right? Yeah, and then the same moves are used inside of repeatedly. So you learn the different moves because they keep pulling from those similar moves. You're like, Oh, I know that from that song. And then you so you keep learning you learn more and more of the routines, the longer that you go. Cool. So it's like the same routine danced to say, Beyonce, yes. Like, like, like, every time a certain song comes on. Like I could be at a baseball game and a song comes on I like want to do the dance routine right? I I still know it's in there. Oh, boy. Yeah. And I actually, by the way, I downloaded this is an amazing thing. Everybody listeners, you have to, you have playlists that are available on your website, which I was like I did the playlists, I was so excited. It's so awesome. I need to update though I do a different playlists every time I teach. But they are definitely recycled from the last 15 years of teaching. Yeah, I just mix them up. But I'm doing I think similar what you're talking about. And so I tried to do new material and mix it up with my own material. Well, it was moving to be like, Okay, so here I am listening to this in my kitchen cooking dinner. And I was picturing and it's like titled, The Playlist is called forgiveness or something, you know. And then I'm just like, picturing these women, and what they might be doing. I obviously don't know what their dance routine is. But I just felt really moved listening to it imagining Yes, and we have all the classes are online, as well. I have a subscription programs, seniors material, or is on our website. So people can pay a fee to then have access to these classes, just like you would so if anybody out there wants to do an at home dance practice and feel really moved and also spend money for a good cause they can, yeah, donate. It's 25 bucks a month, and then that goes right into our dance to be free. And though, you know, I have from 2015 to then the pandemic was tough, but a new space and a new. So Mary, who was in prison who's now out she's on there. So there's a bunch of material. That's awesome. Yeah. And and so what's happening now in terms of your vision for it? Like are you picturing that it just keep growing into different prisons? And and what's your, what's your role? Are you still you're still creating these choreographed routines? Or? Yeah, so I want to really go back to where we've been, before we expand too much more, because certain places like Tennessee, or Virginia, or we've only been one time, and we need to go back, so I'm actually going back to Tennessee in November. It's trickier when they're far. So a big part of the expensive dance to be free is the flying when it's drivable. I've been repeatedly, like Pueblo, Nebraska and now director coat. Pardon, we do it. And then. So I really want to get it going. Make sure that women are dancing every week. There's actually teachers leaving. So that's my goal. Plus adding on new prisons, maybe there's one, another one in Seattle, or Idaho, and having people like Mary who are out, going back in to expand the program for me or going back into the one she served time. And so yeah, and then like I said, when Claudia gets out, we'll have her be or Mary. And so yeah, yeah. And and there is a video of men dancing on your website as well. I don't I don't even know what the context was. Was it Instagram? Yeah, maybe it was maybe it wasn't on the website. Maybe it's just on Instagram. But I was like, I was curious about that as well about a program for men. I you know, I'm thinking I'm thinking about it is a shift. What I might work with men in Mississippi. Yeah, I've been going down there for years to work with the women and then we're just dealing with so much red tape and to get back in. But yes, there is a possibility out there's a woman who works with the men down there who's so she could like, assess who's you know, right? Sure. I would have to modify things I would have to change. Yes and stuff, but I think it could be really powerful. 100% Yeah. And maybe not like all over the country. But I've been to one men's prison for a talk was like a TED talk in prison. Oh, these were the most vulnerable, most heart wide open, owning everything describing horrific childhood. They were palpable. They were just so raw. And I was just like, Oh my God, and and it's hard when I think about working with sex offenders or you know, child abuse. It's a really tough one. Right. It's just the vampires by they were all abused themselves. just unimaginable. Unimaginable childhood. Unimaginable crime is what I keep getting faced with where I like confounding stories. Right? All right, well, and it sounds like you're, you've been really good at holding space. Right? Like you're like, I'm not trying to there's like, what can you say sometimes, right? It's just about sometimes holding space and then going, Okay, let's move. Let's move some of this winter dentally, another person that I'm interviewing for my podcast is a really remarkable man. He has a podcast and a whole program, a nonprofit, you're gonna die. And, and it started as an open mic. And then it moved to bringing music to the bedside of hospice patients. And he has a program in San Quentin, talking about grief and loss. And, you know, I know that San Quentin, that's also where someone I know how to drama had, like, they were doing monologues they were telling their stories. And that was incredibly powerful. Yes, San Quentin happened. Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, the Bay Area, right. Yeah. So you're like, Yeah, you guys over there. You got and he handled. But yeah, there's that internal podcast, your hustle. They're so set is? Well, and it's if you needed I was just thinking like, if you needed a place that was a gentle place to practice adjusting the curriculum. Yes. That's, that would be a very welcome space. Yeah. No, good point. I couldn't receive you. Well, yeah, I could use that help. Because I yeah, I'm going into like, I mean, Ms. One, like you're starting, I mean, like, What about like, Yeah, cuz you know, Denver, because you've got the whole neural program. We got all that. I mean, it's. Yeah, yeah. went for it. But it sounds like if you have someone who's there, and who can be a bridge? Yes. You know? Yeah. Well, some of the red tape. Right? Yeah. And she's a powerhouse. She's like a 70 year old lesbian working with these vets in prison. She's like, I would never work with women. They're crabs in a bucket. I'm like, What is she from? Is she from the south? I love some of the expressions. Oh, the axle? Yeah, I mean, there's just so many amazing, great, great moments like weather. I was in Hawaii. I mean, from Hawaii to Florida, like so much rage. Oh, wow. You are working a program in Hawaii? Yeah, I brought you free to awak Uh huh. I just love the staff. I mean, this one guy was our total lifeline there and he retired. That's so rough. I'll go back. But well, it's it's like you have to I you don't have a garden. So I all my metaphors, I just keep seeing garden imagery. And like, you just got to play. You got to get a new seed got planted? Like this one. Dad, you got a new one in there already. Earlier, God, bring them back with me. Maybe? Oh, well, and that's yeah, I mean, you know, he retired, but maybe he still wants to volunteer. A lot of people, they retire and they're like, I need purpose and meaning in my life. I want to come back to that. Actually, you know, you went from talking about this period in your life where you were you felt loss. Right? Yeah. And then your purpose found you basically, like, it just landed in your lap. And you're like, I don't know, I'm going I'm going into this kind of blindly, and I'm just trusting. And what do you think you drew on inside yourself to allow that to unfold and to allow that trust. I feel like I just stopped dancing because I wasn't loving it. It was the ballet and modern kind of not exciting stuff. And I kept having a friend tried to bring me to Nia and I was gonna go to Nia and then eventually it found my mentor but I think woke something up just going to her class. I remember her saying like, this will change your sense like this will change your fashions and I was just like, and then when I went to teach, it was even more. And then I was married at the time and just professionally, so loss and I had an under grad and psychology thought about, you know, becoming a therapist, I said but once I started grad school, I started with eldercare and so I care of people with like pretty severe dementia or Alzheimer's or people who just needed companionship and I think that was kind of hard. of what led me here was like sitting with people who were waiting to die or lonely and in despair, and I would like find myself laughing at them and going for milkshakes. And just the absurdity of life has always been very apparent to me. Yeah, like I said in the AlJazeera video, like, I feel so myself isn't like I found my people like I don't. I guess just my family, my friends being a New Yorker, there's just this sort of an appreciation of absurd and toughness, that, yes, oh my god, I have to tell this story to you, because it's just really absurd. So my mom and I were visiting my dad in prison. And Mike, he was complaining about his friend whose son he's like, Well, hey, his son brought him a roast beef sandwich, like snuck a roast beef sandwich in for him, you know? And so, my mom was like, because we were bringing like bags a quarter so we could get like, chocolate or CA l group beer, things like that. So my mom's like, okay, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get him a sandwich. So you know, you're not supposed to bring anything in, right? You know that, like you get patted down, you have a plastic bag filled with quarters. And that's it. That's all you get. And so, I didn't know you could bring quarters? Yeah, well, because you're allowed to like you're sitting there all day. I was you're visiting for like, six, eight hours. Whoa. And so what do you do you have to eat from the vending machine, right? Oh, I didn't know visitation was law. Don't quote me on the exact visitation. But we would literally just sit there all day. So my mom buys a turkey sandwich, a turkey sub. And she straps it to her inner thigh. She takes it to her inner thigh and wears these like kind of baggy. I don't have any idea how the hell they didn't feel this strapped to her leg. But then then she goes to the bathroom and manages to like unstrap this, this subway, the sub this turkey sub. And, you know, my dad, of course, complained that it was a little soggy and it wasn't roast beef. And my mom was so pissed. You know, like, she just always felt like hard. Right? Like, I'm like, and hearing him when I think about that as now going like, you fucking like what would have happened if you had gotten caught your 16 year old daughter that could have done alone, Denver, but that just encapsulates a lot. But, but like, talk about absurd. I mean, some of the things that the some of those stories are super funny to me that, you know, it was like super sad, but super funny experiences that we had on those road trips. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't think I could do this work without humor. Yeah, well, like it really helps to. And I'm at the point even where, like, I hear these horror rific crimes. And I'm like, Well, I guess the guy had it coming or like, you know, it's like when women hurt. Hey, I'm on you know, so like, there's just yeah, you know, even with my my mom and dad, I was telling them about this guy who's shot by members of his family in law wouldn't leave. And he's, unless I was like talking to my mom, I'm I'm like, can you relate mama? She was. Oh my god. It's like to be Frankie. He just had it like, get out. And he's a delightful man. Yeah, well, that's lessons in nervous system regulation. Friends. Yeah. Or like going into I went to solitary and was introduced to this woman who had, you know, severe mental illness and she had this like, headset on. And then the woman, she's just looking through the window at me. I don't know what I'm supposed to do or say and then the woman next door to her was screaming. I was like, I just feel like I'm in the twilight. That's really where it's so overwhelming and so much. And I think the humor is a great coping strategy. You know, because it was like, Oh, my gosh, feeling the insanity and how women have lived through and perpetrate. I just have a bit of like, a doesn't go all the way. Well, and that was one of the things I was wondering about first. Laughter transmutes energy, right. So laughter is the most direct way to just shift your state if you're in a particular state. And so it's so useful. I mean, they've done studies around LA laughing and laughter therapy healing people from physical chronic ailments. But this piece is one of the things I really wanted to talk to you about. Because, you know, I've done the work I do for over 20 years. And I've had different phases where I've, there's been a real up leveling and growing edge around energetic boundaries, and taking on the grief and manifesting my own somatic ailments from the trauma of the people I'm working with, you know, my own drive my own trauma that gets activated, but then vicarious trauma, right. And so just, I was really thinking about the vicarious trauma and if there are any practices that you engaged in, in order to energetically prepare, protect yourself energetically DME, at the end of the day, or before you enter the space, so that you aren't taking a tremendous amount on and that you're able to be effective. I've had some, you know, board members and friends tried to teach me some practices like that, and I just don't to them. Yeah, I think I'm like, I think I do have some boundaries up around. Like, because it's a group. I think it could be harder one on one, you know, like, what you're maybe dealing with, because when someone does, like, I don't really have a lot of one on one conversation. And that might just be like, instinctual of just like, I'm not gonna go like one woman's like, Can I read you my poem? Just like, it's good. Some other people or share it with the group? Like, I don't want them to get that attached? And some of them do. What? In a very sweet and harmless way, like, I feel like a mother. Right? vibe. But yeah, I think the humor and because we're moving so much the whole way through, and breathing and sounding. And writing doesn't I don't like take it back to the hotel. Oh, my God, what did she do? Or what happened to her? Yeah, that's great. Because it's it, it means it's actually more sustainable. Do you know? Yeah, yeah. And it's the same thing with eldercare or like, I don't know, I was with my parents ton in the pandemic. And I was like, how have you not lost my mind? I think I like my dad was. He's sick, and I was trying to help and he's defiant and unreasonable. And I would just kind of make fun of them. What do you think you're a cowboy? Like I just, it's really humor. Thank God. Yeah. Gamer and I survived my childhood. Like, my dad was a little unbalanced, manic and drinking heavily. And I would just, like, make fun of him to my friend. And like, we would all be laughing so hard. So it's a coping mechanism that has served. Yeah. Yeah. Like my hardest hardest laugh I ever had was in Florida and Florida is corrupt. 3000 women, its biggest prison in the country. Uh huh. So much weird shit going on down there. And this, this moment happened that I can't describe. I was laughing so hard going through security in with my team, and I couldn't stop laughing while all the way through and I was like that face peel, like, oh my god, sweating. And then it stayed with me and went straight home to New York Christmas as a family system. Christmas holiday. And my mom's like Lucy's last year in mind. Like I just was laughing still then. Oh, wow. And it was great. It was like, This is how I want to celebrate Christmas. With my challenging aunts and my, you know, huh. And it was like a high was like something snapped. Well, it's, you know, I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but having I remember one of the first times I received somatic bodywork, she was doing something with my with my eyes, right? And it's kind of like EMDR, but, like, getting me to follow her finger. And I was watching my eyes were going back and forth. And I started to laugh uncontrollably. Like I just couldn't. I was laughing. She started laughing. And then I started sobbing, and then I started laughing and I started sobbing. And that's it's one of the things when your nervous system is discharging, right. It's like, I've had that experience a couple times. And it's just yeah, it's a it's such a wild release, right? Like so many things have gone wrong, like all of my curriculum for the training. It was delayed because of the holiday season. And I was working with the youth in the morning for three hours in the adults in the afternoon for three hours which is never to be repeated. It was so exhausting. I will never do that long. A time period in inside and I had five women with me big dynamics between us and traveling and preferences and Airbnb and restaurants and choices and who wants what and I was just like, I think I got my period and like tampons fell out in the parking lot. And so like the the end and the security, quagmire that was just like one more piece of red tea. I, I just I was like, this is a joke. This is a joke. Like, every time I go in, for instead of bullshit of what I have to do, so we need a picture of you. And then like, I've been coming here for years and never been requested. So I had to like stand and I didn't even know where to look. And I was just like, and then my friend had to do the same. And she didn't see me. So she just completely stood in front of my face was the back of her ponytail. And I was like, I was just trying to sell her like art. And then my visual of that photograph is just so ridiculous of the two of us we like, and that's all it took. Yeah. And even the big funny moment I was you when I surrender, I surrender, render to how ridiculous this is like, they're they're overwhelmed. Where everyone's overwhelmed. They have a different set of rules. They have to I get it well in this idea that it's like the mark is always changing. Yeah, right. And this thing of feeling like Am I being like, I'm doing it. All right, right. And so here you are the person on the quote, unquote, outside like I'm doing it right, I followed the rules, and I still can't get it right. Can you imagine what it's like for the women inside? You don't mean like, it's just insanity? Depends on the day. They're just like, it depends on who's working right? Or not, I'm getting a dose of that. I mean, there was one time I was like, running across the yard by myself, trying to get my TV equipment that I donated that was in the wrong place. And, and there's like the watch tower. And I'm like yelling, I'm by myself, I have no one with I don't have guard and escort. I mean, to finally get my equipment is on wheel, and I roll it across the brass. So I had to run like across multiple yards. So I'm along those lines. Given all that you've seen in experience, what is freedom to you? Just being so unhinged in a liberated way of like, I don't care what I look like right now I am just in it so much. I'm so absorbed. I'm just dancing with it an abandon. And I'm just saying that this woman at my event on Sunday she is she is freedom. She was dancing, like just don't give two fucks. But it's not in like an arrogant careless way. It was just so she's uninhibited. Mm hmm. There's vanity, there's no trying to prove there's no trying to get there's no image management, like caught in the moment. So present, I'll present so in it and like, I sometimes feel like I come back to Boulder. And even though those two stories are from Boulder, we're like, we're a little bit more zipped up and then like prison, there's definitely still some holding back. But there's some liberation going on while they're in there. And so that's what subculture watch is like, these tough women like during these, you know, kind of hurt movements and like tattoos on their face. So willing, hmm, really beat it's really nice to be in that environment. out social media without phones without money. Everyone's in the same clothes. It's just like it's a very equal. Playing ground. Yeah, there's not it's like identity is not thing in that moment. Yeah. Right. It's just their spirit. And there's movement and there's presence. And music. Yeah, the music is a piece of it all in permission. Yeah, right. Self permission and group permission. Yeah, I often scream out get wrong. That's awesome. That's so good. Yeah, I grew up without that. And you know, I'll be like show wrong who's boss. I love it. I might have to steal that. Yeah, wrong as boss wave your freak flag. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so beautiful. I love it. Yeah, it's total self acceptance. And you know in that moment show wrong whose bus totally Oh my god. Yeah trauma. really create some We're so rigid perfectionist in the world, you know, and it may not look perfect to, like, whenever our perception of perfect is, but whatever they're doing, they're doing it in a tight way. You know, I, I get bored once again said it's been like trauma is as soon as we're separated from ourselves. Hmm. Oh, and so they're just coming back in. It's just, yeah, beautiful. So along those lines, are there any practices that you have or that you've guided the women through that assist them and coming back into themselves, like a practice that you'd like to guide the listeners through. Because even if people are not incarcerated in a prison, we are incarcerated in our, in our own histories, right, we have our own self imposed limitations based on our stories. Yeah, start each training with breathing. And so that's in pairs, but just deep, deep breathing, where it's like, one person leaves the inhale and the partner catches them, and the other person leads exhale, and the other partner matches them. And that's like a mirroring figure eight kind of thing. And it's, it's like staying connected, while calming the nervous system down as soon as they walk in. And then we do it in a circle and have to go in the middle, and pairs like, cheering each other. And the circle matches the pair. And then we do a thing where we like get back to back. And kind of same thing, I exhale my partner's back or falls with me. And then I inhale, I go MacArthur's back, and like, it's just a way to, you know, slow everything down. Because I think another big piece of trauma is feed. Almost every single journal prompt will say, before I came here, I was running fast, fast pace. So they kind of want to dance hard, and it's hard for them to slow down and do more emotional songs. So I try to make sure I'm bringing in very slow songs. And so yeah, so you really, you know, the brilliance behind moving quickly, is it numbs you more you, you're less likely to breathe. When you deprive yourself of oxygen, you feel less. So you have to feel the feelings less and so it's really smart. Okay, it's useful. And then as you come back in, right, you're like, Okay, let's actually slow down. Let's actually feel it's happening. And let's also get in sync, like you're feeling you're, you're basically like the whole room is breathing together in that example. Right. So you're all one system breathing. And so then you not only feel yourself but you feel the other people's nervous systems. You're all slowing down and pulsing together. Yeah, it's very and again, they're so willing, they don't eat up. Choose this cracker doing this hippie shit. Oh, really? Oh my god. No, it is. It's amazing. I was like, how exactly is her house? Like it's yes. And it's kind of trauma training does she have that she's going in there with like, I did not come to dance until I was in my late 20s. And I was super disembodied. And I was horrified by the idea. So we had to up and feel breathe into the earth. Imagine we were trees, and we had roots, and I do all this to people now. It's a lot to ask. And I sometimes shifted up I'm actually got started breathing right away, because it might alienate some people. They're so willing, I. It's wild. It's remarkable. It's remarkable. Yeah. Well, it's there's something there's something you're you're clearly even though there's permission for the for all the wrong for not getting it right. There's something you're doing that's creating that permission, which is really beautiful. Mm hmm. Yeah, you can probably sense that I'm not there for like, doesn't have to look a certain way. It's just letting passion out. Like Martha Graham would say it's not about technique. It's about passion. When you just did that I just pictured like, what a beautiful thing that you're bringing to the world and what a fuck you to ballet were to kind of low modally I'm so amazed. I didn't have an eating disorder or like more profound insecurities because I was like, really not the favorite. And my teacher was me. I was thinking about that today or, Oh, not worse. For valet, like, I've never been on a diet in my life for you, during the pandemic, I gained 25 pounds. And I'm like, wow. Like, I don't know how random I grew up in front of yours. So I feel like some stuff doesn't get triggered, you know, because like, I didn't have sexual abuse. I didn't have I had a decent childhood. So like, that's kind of what I meant, where I was built for it, like I'm getting directly triggered around like, imagine if I did have my own physical sexual abuse or my, you know, cutting eating disorders of Agassi, so many women are cutting? Yeah, well, it's it, it's a really interesting thing, because sometimes we have a direct calling. Like, I feel like I'm able to do really good work around sexual trauma, because I get the experience and the nervous system of, you know, like, what's happening in, in a system overwhelmed by sensation, or less than I get an A totally, totally numb. You, right? There's like these two ends of, you know, our, our book ends, right. And so that means I can be really good at a certain thing, but I also know what my you know, like, I know who I want to work with, and who I, who I don't want to work with, you know, like he else is going to be way better at working with sociopaths. That's not my bag. Like I'm like you not. That's not what I'm interested in. I was just saying that. So somebody else that I interviewed, I'm like, good for you. I'll Oh, that you've got that handled? Yeah, no. And, and because we, we do it's our responsibility to go like, Okay, this is the lane that I'm in. And this is where I can make a difference. Because my nervous system is too dysregulated. I'm not going to be responsible. Like I can't. I can't be of service because I'm too overwhelmed. Yeah. And and that's where it's really important to know yourself. And to know like to keep doing your work. Yeah. And know what you can and can't do. Yeah, yeah. I could see why people would be like, Oh, we want to work in prisons at all. But I never ever saw this coming. You know, 41 years old. No clue that this would be ever in my future. Well, I love I mean, I love that. I think that that's important. Really, I have I have to run us. Yes. I wanted to wrap it up with you. Thank you so much. That was awesome. Thank you so much for your support for your donation. Absolutely. Let's definitely stay in touch. Thanks for joining us today, you make this possible. In order to support the podcast I've started a Patreon, where I plan to release exclusive content you won't be able to find anywhere else online. I'll be offering meditations more in depth exercises that relate to specific episodes and behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. You can find my TREON dot c o n. Backslash L A I D. O P ENPODCAST. To learn more about how you can support our community. Another way you can support the podcast is by reading, reviewing and sharing it with friends so others can find our community of healing. You can also follow me at laid open podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate life.or. Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself. If you want to find dance to be free, you can look on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and dance to be Until next time,

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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