Julia loken

How the Stars Can Help with Julia Loken

I am so honored to have Julia Loken, a comedian, podcast host, and astrologer from Los Angeles, as my guest this week. I really enjoyed our conversation because Julia is one of those people who can talk about anything while making you feel like you’ve been friends forever. Because of this, we discuss a variety of topics including her astrology podcast @whatsyoursign, her discovery of astrology, and how astrology can be used to gain perspective in our own lives, as well as, how it can be used to look at cultural and political trends.

Plus, we talk about how it was for her to listen to her husband’s interview with me, being to another comedian, her bachelorette weekend at the notorious Madonna Inn, the merits of being flexible in an ever-evolving partnership with your best friend, and how therapy led her to develop more self-love and acceptance.

We end the episode with Julia guiding us through a brief grounding practice that she uses to reset anywhere, anytime.

Show Notes Welcome back to laid open podcast. This is your host Charna caselle. I've launched a Patreon for my podcast. If you feel you receive value from these episodes, you can also get additional bonus exclusive content, such as meditations in depth exercises, and behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. All of that more is available@www.pa T ar e o n.com backslash la IDOPENPODZ A S T. By supporting us on Patreon you're not only contributing to the creation of this podcast, you will also provide the support needed for me to work on my book workshops, online courses and additional free content. Our guest today is Julia Logan. She's a comedian and astrologer from Los Angeles. She's also a host and producer of chatterbox comedy night one of LA's longest running independent comedy shows. Julia is also one of the hosts of a comedy astrology podcast what's your sign and a YouTube show that analyzes the charts of the characters of different TV shows welcome learn in life is about to start is. Brand new imagine Bla. Hi, thank you so much. You're so welcome. Do you know that my great grandmother is who I'm named after and her American name versus her Yiddish name, which was Charna. Her American name was Julia. I'm kind of a Julia. I love that. I love that. That's so wonderful. I feel like I never meet other Julius. That's not true. I meet a lot of Julia's with a G and I have developed a kind of thing where I'm like, Yeah, you're a Giulia but you're not like a Giulia it's a different. It's a different vibe. Julia with a G. I don't even understand that. But that's okay. Yeah, it's Italian. Ah, Julia, Julia with the G. I see. Okay. And I think maybe that's also why I'm, I'm kind of like, whatever. I have a joke about this, where my greatest my greatest regret in life is that I'm not Italian because I'm very loud. My family is Norwegian, not not first generation, like far back, but they're Midwestern. And so everyone in my family is very quiet and timid, and I'm very loud and body. And I feel like growing up in television, all of the like loud, cool characters are always Italian. So it should have been Italian. So then to hear this Julio with Ajit, where I'm like, there's even a Giulia they're like, come on. I don't think I mentioned this earlier. But I'm a big fan of your podcast. So I listen. I listen regularly. Oh, yes. I love I think you have so many wonderful guests on everything. So this is truly an honor and surreal to be on this podcast myself. Oh, you're so you. I'm blessing. Yeah, yes. So I have a question. Yes. So I really wanted to like go and watch all of the YouTube things. And I hadn't seen any of the shows that I was, because Okay, so this is the thing, right? I have this idea for probably eight isn't eight. Oh, my God, I think it's been eight years because of a client who are ritual. I have different rituals with clients. Yeah, that create a certain kind of intimacy or connection, and I just follow them like some one person wants a hug at the end of the session. This one client she would always check in with. Did you watch The Bachelor? Yes. Okay. So it became my thing where I was like, Oh, shit, it's Monday night, or I'm going to see her and I like, I have to watch it because I don't have a TV I watched online. So I would I'd watch it. So that the last five minutes of our session, we would break it down and analyze it and talk about right. And so my thing is, I always wanted to do a YouTube show, analyzing and doing a trauma education piece about the Bachelor and The meltdowns that people were going through. Because people are always so mean to one another. And dismissive and not understanding how regulation and the window of tolerance, which is yeah, when you're out of your window, you're you're in your five year old having a meltdown. Yes. And so anyway, so when I saw what you were doing With the YouTube thing is like, oh my god is this like? Yes, I have. And I think it's a great mini Hoard. Like it's a, I think it's a good idea because you're using dominant culture to educate people. How do you choose the shows? Are these shows that you guys all watched already? Or no, these are shows work. So for our YouTube ones, this is all through Amazon Prime. So it's typically ones that they have chosen, or that we have suggested that we know is like an amazon prime property, or whatever. So some of them are ones that they give to us. But because they're sponsoring you, is that why how does it so it's, yeah, it's for their YouTube channel. Although I have to like relook at what our contract things say. Because this is something that I, I feel like this is the best way to kind of like, show people astrology a lot of times is to be like, here's an example of what we're talking about when we say this sort of thing. I think it's like the comedian and me too, for like the pop culture. Yeah, references to where it's like, talk about something that everybody knows about and has a frame of reference for instead of it being a thing that's like, you know, Sal, I think the Bachelor is another one to where it's like, it's such a great way to be able to talk about interpersonal dynamics and what you how you notice people fit well, somatic tell. I mean, that's the I mean, some of it, I have to say, like, half the time, I don't remember names, and I don't I don't watch it. I'm like I'm cleaning or doing laundry or doing all these things. And my client would be like, do you like Harold, that I'd be like, who's Harold like, I didn't pay attention enough. I'm like, how do they remember these names? Jesus Christ, and I'm, I'm trained to I read all micro expressions. Yeah. Right. So I'll notice the subtlest, like lifting of a lip in the sign of like disgust, right. So I'm tracking so much in terms of Oh, yeah, my clients, like toes will be lifting. And I'm like, Oh, are they dissociating? And like, you know, just these subtle things that people's bodies do. And so the Bachelor is fascinating because the amount of pressure and alcohol that's coming by No, it's, it's so true. It's horrible. We know so many people that have worked on The Bachelor. I don't know if you still see this client and still talk about it. But I feel like it's been a very interesting for me watching The Bachelor as a property that's trying to contend with changing cultural norms around consent and alcohol consumption and, and misogyny. Like, in and of itself, I already think that there's like a huge difference when you watch the bachelorette versus the bachelor in terms of like, the way that the bachelorette contestant has to be like tending to all of the men in such a different way than the bachelor does. And even the like, the fighting between men, there's so many more of those, like blow ups shut downs, as opposed to the women who get much more. Like, it's just it's so much more gender. It's very gender. They create cattiness. Yeah, right, right, right. But they're very much trying to be woke as just to use the broad term of it. And it's like, bad TV and bad wokeness. It's a very Oh, yeah. It's a very interesting thing to like, watch it kind of like contend with itself. And they're trying to get rid of the most interesting thing recently that they did is they had two women hosting, which I thought was great, because they were talking to the Bachelorette. It was a bachelorette season. And they would ask her, like, oh, did you like that guy? Or they would be watching the dates and be like, This doesn't seem like it's going well, and they never have that kind of commentary with the male hosts. But no, but so they Amazon Prime chooses the shows for us, but I do want to keep doing it with stuff because I love all of this kind of stuff. One of the things that I did recently that I never ended up doing a video about because Roe versus Wade got overturned the next day. Is that that movie Elvis that just I haven't seen it. I heard it was good though. I really liked it. I love a spectacle. And I do think again, if we're talking about if we're talking about culture contending with itself, I do think at the very least it's interesting to see what people are wanting to communicate about a like significant cultural figure. Regardless, Elvis was a significant cultural figures. So it would be like, I don't again, that's that's a different conversation. But all of everybody in volved Baz Luhrmann, Austin Barnes, the star and Elvis himself all were in Saturn returns, like while they're doing this thing, but that means that they all have a shared everybody had shared astrological, like placements, things like that. So I was like, everybody was like, everybody was very, whatever that means for whether or not there's gonna be like a good move. Be everybody was very connected to this material. I think that that means it can be good and bad. It also means like perspective isn't there, but I just love. I love all of it, the characters, the people that are making it all of the ways that why people get cast I used to be an actor, there's so many, so many ways that it all intersects. I love it. Well, what you just said is really interesting to me. I worked in Hollywood for a minute, I worked in film for like, one solid year. And I've tried a bunch of things out to see if it was the way I wanted to go. And there was a there was a script that I loved. And I got the director was a great guy. And I thought it was going to be this incredible cast. And something happened with the editing. It just went awry. And the film never ended up being released. Yeah. And it's so interesting to me, you know, this the piece about perspective lost perspective. It's like, at what point, sometimes you're watching something and you're like, Oh, my God, this acting is so horrible, but you know that it was the directors directing them in that way. And you're like, how could they not see what was happening? Yeah, you know, and it's like, it's they're just way it's like, their eyes are so close to the page, they can't get enough distance to get perspective on just how, how stale. were, you know, it feel, I think movies are such interesting ones when it comes to astrology, because there's so many, it's so many people involved. It's such a huge production. And it's so like, representative of how hard it is, I think, to get anything done when you're having a bit like when it's like one person in charge that has to get all of these people together to execute their vision and how hard it is to make what is in your head. And what you envision for something the same thing that actually we see in the finished product. And it's like, that's, it's so hard. It's so hard. I feel like it's comparable. I'm like, God, it's like I'm a really amazing choreographer in my head. Yeah, I don't know how to choreograph anything, right. Yeah, I like to move my body but it's just kind of like it's hysterical to me like the diff the disconnect between what's happening. Yeah, and happen in your eye on birds. Oh, yeah. And then what you're doing or that I mean, in dance, too. I was a dancer for for many years, I danced in high school and was on dance teams and like, oh, yeah, what's in your, in your head versus what's happening and what you can actually get someone else to do and all like, it's so it's wild. I have another question. So I can't remember where I read it. Or if it was in one of your podcast episodes, but you used to work with horses. Do you still work with horses? I don't currently but I want to, it's something that I want to do again. So the thing that I'm really curious about because part of my training involves working with horses. Yeah. And the energetics and the communication and in like, you know, grounding your own energy and how to communicate with this big animal to get it to do the thing that you're wanting it to do. And I was really curious. It's like, I wonder how she uses this one with her audience as a comedian and to in her relationship. It's so funny because I just had my bachelorette party and Congratulation. Thank you. We went on a horseback ride. And we're at the Madonna Inn in San Luis Obispo, which is a place that I always wanted to go. So I was so great. Oh my god. I'm not a screamer. And you just made me scream. Yes. I love it. It was, I'm assuming you've been. So my mom and I, we lived. I lived in San Francisco in LA. So we would do this at different times in my life, I would do that drive with my mom. And I was obsessed with the Madonna and be like, I want to have like 16th or 18th birthday. It's a Madonna animate the pink sugar and their sugar shakers, and Christmas. It's like the most gaudy shit ever. And then the theme rooms so you actually stayed there. That's a mess. It's so funny, because this is also the reason I knew about the Madonna in now, recently, I'd have many friends who have gone and you know, it's like, I feel like it's a little more popular. But when I was younger riding horses, they would have a beach trip where you would take the horses up to Morro Bay, and you would camp and you would do this like beach trail. And it was a like, on on the way to one of those beach trips we drove by the Madonna in and I just loved Madonna. And also my dad was like, Oh, this is a hotel where they have a different theme room and it's very over the top. And so it was just was this kind of like storied place in my mind forever. And then people started going and I was like, I gotta get I gotta get there. And I've tried several times, it never worked. And then finally for this bachelorette party, I was like, we're going to the Madonna and this was amazing. Amazing. They had horseback riding there and I was like, This is all I was like, this is all of my things. It's amazing. You absolutely have to go it's so fun. Every Yeah, so yeah, and I want to hear more You but so by I just remember we had breakfast there and the eggs they have I don't think their own chickens probably eggs were really good. And it was so unexpected. Yeah, it has no business being as great as it is because I've been to a similar resort, or like similar places where it's like, I guess it's not exactly the same vagina and I feel like is a little bit more honest with itself about how kitschy and over the top it is, whereas these other places that I'm thinking of are a little bit more like, this is an American institution, but the plate like the food is always whatever, this place the cake, they have, like that pink cake and it absolutely, well, I was ready to be disappointed and be like, Oh, it's all fine, but everything was delicious. Oh was so serene, and like lovely, and just had absolutely the best time but we were horseback riding. And at this bachelorette party, there were also a bunch of pictures of me when I rode horses and my memory of how small I was how young I was doing this, I imagined myself being much bigger and much older. And then when I'm like looking back on these pictures of this like tiny little thing on these big horses to like thinking about just doing that is also kind of sent me but I think that I've become much more aware of how much you have to how to actually regulate my own energy, which makes me excited to be like, oh, I want to like now actually connect with connect with horses again, as an adult as a reconnect, but you do just like it's very much like you just kind of like Hold your hand out and let them smell you and not take it personally, I feel like it's also why I'm good with like dogs and babies and all of that to where you just go like, Hey, it's your it's your call, like you get to decide whether or not whether or not we're going to engage. And if you tell me if there's a thing you like, sniff about me that you don't like, a that you're an animal I can't, I can't take that. That's not for me to take personally, it's for me to know that that's like you and whatever. I'm always surprised when people are offended by baby's responses to them. Or I'm like, It's a baby like they don't. It's not an adult brain. That's like, being rude. It's a bait, like, let them go. It's the same thing with dogs and horses, but it is very much like their big I forget I forget how how spooky it is. But it is still like they don't I don't know, they don't care. They don't care about you. I mean, they do, they just, they're just doing their thing. So I think that it is I haven't been writing enough frequently to be at the place where you have like a relationship with a horse because you definitely do. Because when you're writing, ideally, you're at a place where you guys are like working together and your horse can feel your cues. And, and I think when I was younger, I used to think it was like we're communicating with our minds. But then you realize, like you were just talking about about observing your patient where it's like, you know, the horse can feel you like getting ready to squeezing kick, or like getting ready to kind of like stand up or something like that. So if you are working with a the same horse enough, they can kind of like feel those things. I think in my, my relationship, it's funny, I think it does, it does tend me to like, take on big, big people, whatever that means. Whether that be just like physically imposing are also big personalities, people who are like, intimidating to other people that I just go like, no, it's just worth it like they want they I don't know, there is something that I think she like, makes me feel like oh no, they're just they're having fun, too. It's it's no fun, like, forget the phrasing. But I'm like, It's no fun if someone isn't writing them, you know what I mean? Like that, that kind of, you know, whatever. But I think it's also just that, like, if you can if you can be in touch with regulating your own energy, that is also the quickest best way to decide what the energy is going to be no matter what so I think I think it makes me think I have a little bit more maybe like control or something then I then I actually do or that's like where my mind goes. I'm always I'm always investigating whether or not I'm like benignly, manipulative or, or like or controlling. Do you know what I mean? Here's the thing. I mean, it's an interesting thing. We think the word manipulation is such a negative word, and we're all manipulating each other. And it depends on where it's coming from. Right? What's the intention? So for instance, the person with the strongest heart rate variability in a room is going to impact other people's heart rate variability. So if someone comes in and you know, you can feel when somebody or like a person seems really tense or they have good energy, if someone's heartbeat is going really really, really fast, you know, and whether people are conscious of it or not, they're by it. Right? Yeah. And so in if someone's really calm, right, yeah, also have more control. There's a book called energize your heart written by the father of a meditation teacher I had, and it's focused, it's Sufi. There, they come from a Sufi line of meditation, but it's heart centered meditation. And one of the things that I like that they talk about is, you know, you can heal, you can have health issues around your heart, and you can heal those if you learn how to have more control of your own heart, but you also could be in a court of law, and be impacting the state of the jurors and, and the lawyers and everything around you simply by having more control of your heart rate. Yeah, so anyways, the whole thing with horses, I mean, how that was used in my training was around embodied leadership was was very much like the hero here, 12 people, now you got to lead this horse, take this horse on a lead and run it around in arena, first, walk it, run it, lead it, you know, and, and no one has necessarily at Horse experience previously, and no one knows this horse. This horse doesn't know us, but it's seeing what assessment does this horse give you based on what your energy automatically does in a somewhat stressful condition? Yeah, because what are you doing? How are you behaving? Are you muscling the horse? Are you does the horse immediately follow you? Does the horse need to be started by someone else in order to get going? And then it troughs beautifully, like Yeah, so basically, what the horse was being used to do is to assess each person the way each person ran their energy. Yes. What our growing edge as a leader is, yes, you know, so anyways, it's I think, Oh, I love like, I love that because I definitely, I wouldn't have consciously thought of it that way. But it does feel like a way where I'm like, oh, I need a more accurate assessment. Horse wise, because I feel like when you go on these, like trail rides, it's these, you know, real workhorses that are, are pretty pretty, there are two I mean, they're still attuned, but they kind of don't, they don't care. They're walking, they're at work, they're going up the hill, they're going down the hill. So there's not a there's not as much like writing that has to be done. If that makes sense where you are, it isn't as much of a collaboration it is more like you know, you're getting on a new sit and whatever. But I I definitely noticed it's funny hearing people are watching other people, I can notice it, you know, it's harder to notice it with yourself. And also I just feel like I'm pretty comfortable on. Take it for granted. I mean, it's interesting, because as a kid, you don't you don't have this context or work to, to understand what a horse can offer you and what the exchange is like, you're like, Oh, I thought I was it was ESP, which it can be like, yeah, totally telepathically communicate with an animal. But there's something you're entered, you got trained in that you would have brilliant access to as an adult, if you tapped back into it. If you did like a couple sessions with like an equine therapist, I'd be so curious to hear, like, how that played out. I love it. I want to know, especially now that you said it. Well, it's been on my heart to do to do some sort of riding lessons, because it is a thing that it was not ruined for me. But I also had a lot of trauma around it. Because the people that were running the place like I clearly was also a kid that was having a lot and home trauma that made me not a there was like me and two other girls. Oh, goodness. Now this is very true. Other girls who were my age, and everybody else was kind of like older but these other two girls one one was just like a very rich, pretty like, quote unquote, normal, you know, girl, and the other one was this young woman who has since passed, but had cystic fibrosis and was like the brave kid that was like fearless and could do anything, or whatever. And I'm just kind of like, the biggest trauma like, physically bigger than everybody but also like, just going through weird, weird at home trauma, and that definitely showed itself in my, my relationship to horses and my ability to like, not be at a certain point, I was scared of stuff. And that was very clear. And you know, especially when you're jumping if your horse like refuses to go over and that kind of stuff and the disappointment, disappointment from the coach and how that also like, is there so it also feels like I need to do some childhood wounding wound healing around horses too. Yeah, well, if you do want a referral for an equine therapist, I'm happy to Yeah, she was you know, someone in the LA area. Oh, god. Oh my god. I do my first supervisor. Yeah, she's intense. I went to her wedding. It was wild. Hell yeah. Anyways, she He started her own stable in Malibu and she you know, she has a background working with with addicts. So she's Yeah, that like, Yeah, I'm tense in that way right? I will totally send you her I don't know if her if it still exists. I don't know if you're in LA but she's from LA. So I imagined she would be. And like, all of these things are all right up my alley, because I do feel like I'm in a place now where I'm very good at taking instruction. I just did a clown class, or not a clown Class A clown show. Yeah, did not do the class. But it was very much he was like, here's literally what you do. If you do this, you will succeed. And I did that thing. And I had the best. It was like one of the most wonderful supportive performance experiences of my life. And it's totally been like, oh, yeah, I want someone who says do this, do this. And that's freedom. Someone being like, Do this, do this, and you will succeed and an X having that meet expectations. I mean, okay, so hence the heights, you could soar. So this is that's interesting. Like, in that context, there's a little bit of, like, wanting to be talked, like a little bit of direction. But liking restriction and limitation because you work really well within it, because you know what the boundaries are, and you don't have to set them, but it's like, Oh, this feels really good. I feel safer. I like I like also being like, the, the vessel I like being I like again, like the dance thing, too. I like having someone's idea and being able to help someone being the vessel for that. Yeah, you actually make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like I like having the ideas to I like telling people what to do and and seeing that come to life too. But it also is like the, you know, when you can when you can also be the embodiment of someone else's, that's also very, I think I also met awesome clowning. How fudge. Yeah, you can get pleasure in many ways, which is very mutable as a, as a stand up comedian, I would imagine nothing. Nothing is off limits as a stand up comedian and so on with Mercury conjunct Pluto, I kind of can't help but say the most intimate, vulnerable. I'm so curious. I know. I have something with Saturn and Pluto, where people look at my chart, and they go, oh, boy, that's intense. So I don't I wish I could tell you I wish you could talk. I feel a little bit like you speak a different language. And I'm going to Spain and I don't speak Spanish. It's that's exactly how I describe the kind of like, disconnect for folks. And I think it's almost worse because it is words that you know, it's not actually a different language, but it's more like gibberish, where you're like, I know the things that you said. But now I'm, or like, when you say the same word over and over and over again, where it's on, it's things that you do know, but all of a sudden, they don't make sense. And right, it really is, I don't think it's that complicated. It's a lot of kind of, like pattern recognition and memorization sort of, and then you kind of are i Not to say that, I also don't think that I have an aptitude for it. And so of course, I would say that it's, that's easy, but it is absolutely learning another language for people. And it's, I do think it is a barrier to people like being able to use the tool or have conversations about it that I think are so cool. But it is it is a big ask to get someone else to need to understand a completely different language in order to have this kind of conversation. The thing about astrology that I find where I get kind of self conscious when I talk about it with other people is that there is a lot of this kind of, it feels like double talk because of the nature of astrology, but also because we are talking about these things that aren't like literal or aren't objective. And it is personal to everyone's it is a thing that is both like collective and incredibly specific and personal. And it can be really broad and applied to everybody. And it also can not apply to anybody and, and astrology everything has an opposite. And so you kind of can't talk about one thing without talking about the other thing and which is the thing that I like about it, because I think that is what's true about life. It's complicated, and things aren't black and white. And it's kind of hard to talk about anything in a vacuum. And anytime we're talking about whatever it whatever the subject matter is, I think it always is like, yeah, that's one one day, but that's a day in someone's whole life and life is part of a whole family country. Humanity, you know, whatever. So it Yeah, I don't know, I think it's more this is maybe me being more defensive and being like, Please don't think I don't know what I talk. Oh, no, you know, it's I mean, what I think you're saying is really important. It's like everything exists within a context and you take something out of the context. And it might seem like quotes, for instance, right or your edits the way we at that TV shows, and then you edit someone to be the villain. Well, you could take anything and you cut a line out of something, and you quote someone, and it sounds a certain way, right? Yes. And so you take a transit or whatever, I don't know how to talk about it. But if you take something in someone's chart, for instance, you could make an assumption about who and how they are. And then but if you put it in the larger constellation of things, then there's the thing certain things will soften. Yeah, a factor something right? Is that Yes, exactly. One I would say like for you, for example, not looking at your chart, literally. But knowing people look at your chart and see some sort of Saturn Pluto aspect and go, Oh, that's intense. Well, Saturn is is structure and routine and kind of, you know, these boundaries and embodiment and that's something that you absolutely discuss in your podcasts. But also, Pluto is, is trauma, Pluto is all of the like, a key gookie you know, trauma, resentment, like it's, it's all what I'm like, going through my lexicon of words here. But it would be like, Oh, that's someone who has structure and boundaries and teach it like teaching and having, I would say like sessions with people around that, to me, Saturn is also time so that's like, oh, yeah, you already like trauma of sorts, trauma embodiment therapist, or like, that absolutely makes sense. That's not a thing to be scared of in someone's chart, but if you read just like, oh, Saturn, whatever Saturn Pluto aspect, if you just read that on its own, it would be like, oh has, you know, difficulty with power structures or something, which can also be true, but it also is like a thing that's really, you know, beautiful and powerful. And I think a lot of people actually, like I said, it's a language and so people are kind of afraid to see what that is. And a lot of things that you will read are scary for people for sure. I don't know, granted, a lot of astrological texts were written 1000s of years ago, when we didn't have any kinds of life, like, basic scientific knowledge, where something would be if you did see that in someone's chart, you would be like, Oh, that's, that possibly means, like, a life cut short or something. Which Yeah, just as, as wood, a cold as wood I cut as wood, you know, just any, anything. So a lot of the language I think is really like heightened and, and intense because of the nature of when it was written. But also I think most people, like I think people think astrology is more like fortune telling and kind of, like, airy fairy, when people are probably really living their astrology, whether they're aware of it or not. It just is interesting to see, whenever I do readings with people, I'm always, I'm always shocked to be like, Oh, well, that's when you tell me what your job is. I will be like, Oh, if you put the like keywords of those planets together, I would say you should be I just did a reading with someone who's cool, go stellium in the sixth house, their name, their last name is literally day, the sixth house is like routines and day to day stuff. And she is like an organizer. And I was like, you know, I know that's kind of stereotypically Virgo. But I would be like, Yeah, you're doing exactly what your chart says, you would be great at doing so good for you for not even needing to know astrology in order to do the things that it says that you're good at. You just are listening to yourself. And that's kind of like what I think it is. To me. I'm curious about, you know, just the use is, as you were saying that people like it's fortune telling. And I know in different cultures, there's different kinds of astrology and I was born in in Asia. And so Vedic Astrology, like you're born and you get a chart done, right? And so it can be used to just like, you, you look at your baby's chart, you look at like, what are the challenges? And what what, what's this kid going to deal with? Or you you're making a decision to change your job, or you're making all these different big life? Weddings, right, like a lot of the times in arranged marriages, they look at charts, right? Yeah. And yet, it can just be used as a way to gain perspective and understand that this is a season that you're in, that this is something that will pass just like the planets are moving, right? Yep. I think the thing that's most helpful for me, it's for sure, like contexts, like you said, giving, giving yourself context giving these things that feel like they aren't related in a way that they are related seeing even just how you kind of like systemically communicate within yourself and know that but I think it is also like, you know, it's making choices is hard or having like, all of the critiques I think about astrology, not all of them, but some of the things where it's like, you know, fate versus free will and all of that. I think that all of this stuff exists whether or not you're using astrology, and we could attribute it to anything. At the end of the day. We're all just trying to kind of make The best decisions for ourselves and use whatever kind of information we can. And I think that whether it's more I don't know, I'm not trained in Vedic, so I don't want to Yeah, how you would how you because I know that that is like, a whole a whole different thing. But even that it's like, you know, would you use your medical chart as a way to decide what kinds of things you're going to do? Like, I think people just want guarantees on things that have no guarantee and it's easier to go Oh, astrology is bullshit rather than go? Well, actually, that seems like pretty useful data to use, like, where the time and place that you're born, I think that is absolutely unchangeable. And is like, useful. You don't think that that has some kind of bearing on on the kind of person that you are like your who your family is, where you're born, where you grow up? What, what kind of messaging you're getting, that's all it's saying is like, there isn't anything in astrology that is like, you are this, it's just like, I don't know, it is that's something else. It's always so fun as people go like, Oh, is that normal? And it's like, well, I don't know, there's 24 hours in a day, you could be born at any one of them. Is there a normal hour to be born, I suppose, like between nine to five, because that's like when, you know, doctors are on call maybe. But like people are born at all hours, there isn't a thing there just is you just have a time that you start and we go from there. I think it's more about people not wanting to feel limited or feel like someone else is making choices for them. But at the same time people are doing that all of the time with all of these other things that they don't, that they don't realize. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's interesting. I mean, there's so much fear of the unknown. You know, think about I think about this period that we've been going through with COVID. And how much intense fear there was initially, and for some people, there still is a good amount of fear, you know, and I, right at the beginning, and maybe before, there's different astrologers that I follow, and just the predictions, and I was curious, what were you seeing around them? What are you seeing in the stars? Are you as there are things like Roe versus Wade happening and politically, I mean, God, the Trump years, like so much. I'm curious about what you're seeing related to the collective? Well, there's several things that you know, it's funny, especially with the pandemic, there was a lot of people that were like, astrologers. How come nobody warned us that this was happening? And I also go, like, would you have believed a bunch of astrologers if they said, a worldwide pandemic was like, Well, now, now all of a sudden astrologers are the first and last word on how we should be living our lives, okay. But there is there are several long term transits that people have been talking about around things like this for example, kind of like you know, not to, to get it but things like we have the planet Uranus and Taurus Uranus rules, rapid change, it's up upheaval, it's also like, bolts of inspiration. So you know, again, positives and negatives to all all things, and Uranus has been in Taurus since 2018. And the last time it was in Taurus was around end of Great Depression world beginning World War Two era when we had a lot of changes with in Taurus, the sign that is ruled by Venus, which is not to buy an area, but is more associated with the feminine. We see a lot of changes in rent, women's roles, and women going to entering the workplace or leaving the workplace also changes around finance changes around food supplies, things. Also, like Earth changes, you know, climate change, all of that sort of thing. So we're thinking, when we're like, at least for me, when I'm looking at things like that, it's hard to say exactly what that means. Especially if we're taking big, long range views. Uranus is in Taurus until 20. It's been there since 2018. It will be there until 2025. But kind of like the macro theme of this is also like change in values, Venus rules, values. Taurus, again, earth sign very, like tangible things, what do we find valuable? Who do we value? How do we value and how are those things changing? And what happens when those things change quickly? Your Taurus is also a Fixed sign and fixed signs from the sound of it adult like to change and it's also things that we don't want changing a lot like our financial, like stock markets and things like that. So this is having a bunch of fluctuation, what does that mean for how and who we value and how we like care for resources and things like that. So that's that's been happening since 2018. And then the big another one that has to do with this Uranus planet is that we had a series have what are called squares to Saturn square is a 90 degree aspect relation, when we're talking about astrology, we're talking about not just the planets, where they are and what signs there. And we're also looking at how they are relating to each other. Because just like any kind of internal system, your perspective is going to matter if you're, you know, sitting directly across from someone, that's a different kind of relationship from someone who is like, on your team, or who like your opponents, your spectator critic, you know, whatever. So, a square relationship is a 90 degree relationship. And it's one that would be categorized as difficult because it requires us to, to take action, if you think about kind of like being in a corner, you, you have to change someone has to change directions. You know, I think that too, is that kind of like when you're at a stop sign, and set like two people can't go at the same time from at that 90 degree angle. So it's like someone has to wait someone has to go, but it does mean that you're taking action. So while it's kind of frustrating, it is motivating in the sense that it requires us to do something and we had Uranus Square Saturn, Saturn is in the sign of Aquarius, which is also modernly ruled by the planet Uranus. So that's also like one that yeah, I was like one that likes change, likes rebellion likes to kind of buck the system. But Saturn itself is a planet that likes structure that likes rules and routine and rigidity. And, again, it's these things that we don't want changing. And so Saturn and Uranus meeting together, we had three exact meetups in 2021, which I think are very much emblematic of changing around COVID restrictions, changing around laws and things like this, but also just how do we also just calling into question the validity of structures, which ones do we want to uphold? And which ones do we want to demolish? And, and change and kind of what is it like when to things that we don't like changing? Often we're saying we need to change these things. So there's just a lot of, you know, again, it's like it's very, it's very obvious if you're to world events are so many things, but like it is these things of how what's our relate to things changing quickly, and things that we don't want to change needing to change? And how do we kind of measure that out of like, what's too much? What's not enough? And, yeah, so we can we can count on white supremacy dissolving and everything changing by 2025. Right? Yes, exactly. Well, that's all on top of that. We are also in the Pluto Return of the United States, which anytime you have a planetary return, it means you probably are most familiar with the Saturn Return if you hear about that's one that's kind of it's not quite at Mercury Retrograde levels of Zeitgeist knowledge. But that's one that gets thrown around a return is when a planet comes back to the same place it was in whatever chart we make for it. So most people are talking about their natal chart, but this so this is for the United States chart. This is our like constitution chart, not the North American chart. Again, obviously, we know in in the context of this conversation, the United States, this is very much like an idea, an experiment. And that's also indicated in the chart, we're sad rising, we are very much a a well intentioned idea that maybe was not thought through all the way. But we're in the Pluto Return of the United States, which also, like I said, Pluto is the planet of, of shame, of resentment of power. It's like destruction, you know, thinking of when we discovered Pluto was the same time that we made the atom bomb. And so thinking about what that means for how like our relationship to power, what power can do destruction, but it's also like, you know, phoenix rising from the ashes energy, but we are in the Pluto Return of the United States right now. And so we are having to contend with all of the trauma and shame and power issues that we have not dealt with. Since the inception of our country, we have like really done a bad job at dealing with any of our Plutonian issues. And so I think having that at a time when we have the most kind of information and access and also then thinking of a time when a bunch of us are also forced either to be working or forced to be at home contending with all of this stuff. It really is a pressure cooker situation for people just having to call into question what we want to keep and what we don't as we are like remaking this world as we come come back out. Well, what's exciting about that, I mean, even just the last sentence of remaking this world, the idea that at any time, we can make a choice to remake ourselves, you know, and that astrology provides a tool to give us information that we can take or not take and you know, choose to integrate and go okay, so these are some church changes you could make these are the struggles we're up against. And I really I'm someone who really likes change, and I don't think I could do the work I do if I do didn't believe in change, and people's capacity to change. I'm curious for you, when did you discover astrology? And if the what was specifically like, was there an event or something happening in your life that you then, you know, hooked into it and went, oh my god, this is a great resource. Yeah, absolutely. I'm from Los Angeles. And so I feel like I've always known about astrology. And it's always been something that I've been interested in, I would, my parents would always go to bookstores. And I would always like, run off into the like, esoteric session section and look at the astrology books, I would never buy anything. But I would always like immediately go to the Sagittarius section and be like, I got to know, I got to know, it was always something that intrigued me. And then I worked for an acting teacher who was very into astrology and taught me about Mercury retrograde. And that's the first time that I was like, Oh, I can see that this is more than just sun signs. And this is also something that I can track and notice that things do change or like this is it this is a measurable period of time when things do seem to be a bit more wonky. And so it just kind of like started percolating something but then when I really got into it was I was going through a breakup, and was also at a kind of receptionist job where I was sitting in front of the computer a lot and just kind of had ample time to be just sitting and reading and like doing this sort of thing and was like, gonna look into I also was getting tarot readings a lot at that time and getting into crystals and you know, as as we do after break, but I think that's when I was like, Oh, this like makes I don't know if it was necessarily help us helpful. And I guess it was helpful in processing the breakup, but it was like, it just it was interesting information. And everything I continue to read gave me insight into myself, I wasn't really reading necessarily for the other person. But it was more like, oh, what's what's going on with me, it also happened to be my Saturn Return. And so learning about that, too, and reading more, and then I would just talk to girlfriends about this all the time, because it is again a thing where like, you know, if you find out someone's into it, then you're speaking that other language, which I do, I do like, but I would say only like, Perry recently I have my astrology podcast, what's your sign where I also was like, we are having these conversations, I want to have more astrological conversations, I want people to know about astrology. So I can talk to more people about astrology, which was also kind of the impetus for that. But I would say, truly, it's kind of embarrassing, but I would say only within the last like year have I really paid attention to my own astrology in terms of like noticing my own cycles. And and can I look at transits and and use this to feel how I feel in that. Because I think that that is something that people don't necessarily know. And it requires a lot of knowledge. And maybe maybe people aren't interested in like learning that much of it may I think there's other ways that you can, you can do what astrology gives me. But I think that it's one thing to read about what a transits going to be. And then to be able to track it yourself and know, oh, this is what my like moon cycle feels like, now I can I can kind of go like, Oh, I'm feeling I'm feeling prickly. Today, I wonder if the moon is in aspect because you don't pay attention. Like, I think the other thing is to not be paying attention that much. You don't want it to be a thing that you're like having to live your life by it's more a thing that you're naturally doing. And you go to when you need a reminder or context because it's something is feeling off or out of control or whatever, it's never a thing that says this is going to happen, or this is why this is happening. It's like what am I supposed to be? What should I be getting from this instead of getting resentful, or getting sledding myself spin in a thing or taking something super personally, and and, you know, thinking that this is a failure of my my doing or something like that? Not Not? Not not taking accountability for things either. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's, as someone who sits with clients that are going through hard times and being able to say to them, like, I mean, I have enough age and experience in life to know that things are not permanent, right? You know, like, every, each day you wake up and what you were feeling the night before, isn't always the same. Sometimes it does persist, right and so that I do think that Astrology can be useful and being able to see like, oh, wow, this is a really this is a challenging cycle like i And again, I do have more knowledge of Vedic Astrology than Western astrology, but I had a cycle of healing crises. And it was like 10 years I had like, you know, however many more years left in it, but I was like, it helped me to know you Yep, okay, there's like four years or two years left, like, okay, I can handle it if it doesn't go on forever, right? Yeah, it was, it was like you're burning. The guy said, Well, you're really burning through tremendous karma in this lifetime. And it's happening physically. And you're probably in a lot of physical pain, and it's gonna, there's going to be some relief at this. Right? And I went, No, and it was, it was, yeah, yeah, yes, I love that. And I think that that's something that astrology is so helpful for, is to give you an idea of a time, and to let you know, like, not that it doesn't make anything easier. It doesn't make anything not, it doesn't make you not have to deal with difficult circumstances, trauma, whatever it is, but it does let you know that this is part of the process and that you are at least engaging with, you know, what is on schedule, you know, I think of it to have, like, you know, when you're taking classes or whatever, you know, you're not like in a class forever. But you know, oh, this is like a hard one, you're gonna have to study for a while you're gonna hate your life for the next semester or whatever. But you know, at the end of it, you're going to like that class ends. And right, if you know, this is a particularly hard class, then maybe you also are putting other hard classes because you're like, what, like, let me add this on while I'm doing this thing. Or you're going to take it easy in these other places, because you're not that but you know how to, like again, contextualize yourself and to be I think, kind and, you know, a co conspirator with yourself instead of going like, why is this so hard for me? Is this hard for everybody? Yeah, I doing something wrong. And it's like, no, you're doing you're right on schedule. It's not fun. But it is it is on schedule. Yeah. Have you? Have you seen the app? The pattern? Yes. Okay. So one of my clients recommended this app. And I, you know, so I checked it out. And then I was like, oh, like, and so that was really fun. And it's read, it's ridiculously accurate, which is really, it's really funny. So it what it does, as you were talking about earlier, those transits that might be hard to track, it can go to any period, and it records those transits for you. So it tells you so it basically was like from September 28 to October 17. Pay attention to synchronicities. And I'm like, Okay, I put that in my phone. Yeah. And so then I'm paying attention and I'm seeing all the synchronicity. So it is it can be like a cliff notes to helping you track some of those things. What Yes, absolutely. And I love it for that. I think that's also another thing too, where it's just like everything, it's not, it's not your whole chart at every single time. There are times when Yeah, like you said Synchronicities are gonna be coming up, there's times when you're really gonna have to be doing like, routine things or scheduling things. But it's just the like, what's, you know, what's, what should you be focusing on? Now? What and if we, if we do, like, let everything have a season, how much easier, not easier, maybe that's not the right word. But what happens when you do that, if a little out a way that you Yeah, that's hard for people, because there are so many things like, outside of us. Ruling our lives are also it's like a hard place to, I know, for me, definitely just trusting my own, that my own cycle is like a right. And thing to be listening to, and not something to be fighting against, or overcoming or whatever, whether that be, you know, like, you know, getting enough sleep and exercising and whatever all of it. There's so much I feel like that's telling you that you should not listen to, you shouldn't listen to yourself, you should listen to whatever else, you know, someone else is doing whatever you're supposed to, whatever a schedule is supposed to look like, for being productive or whatever. And so I think astrology for me, too, is been very, very helpful in like, being like, No, this is your like, this is your cycle. This is your timing. And I got we all have like collective transits that we're going through, but it's happening somewhere different for everyone else and so to listen to, you know, listen to your stuff. Yeah, I think what you're saying is so important because so much of our suffering is about a lack of self acceptance, right? And people will compare themselves to others and I think social medias is used as a as a torture device sometimes for people and or people looking at like their their peers and going I shouldn't have accomplished this by this age and what am I doing with my life and I really think people have different paces. Right and different karma. If you believe in that, you know, and like not everybody's challenges are the same challenges. One person has challenges a relationship and other person has challenges and their work with their health. Right and, and so I'm very pro anything that helps people accept themselves more. Yeah, and my hope is that people would use astrology for good and that way like They could get a reading and they could, they could then be like, Oh, this is actually who I came in as, and maybe I should stop resisting this aspect of myself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because you see these things. Again, I think, going back to that, like, it's hard to see, it's hard to see something written. And I have felt that where you feel the limitations of reading, like, for example, I have a lot of things like in the bottom half of my chart, which says, you know, you're very introverted, it's going to be hard for you to like, achieve external success or something like that, depending on what you read. That's the kind. But there's also like, when you think about, like, what we're up against, even in terms of this thing that's supposed to be so but if you then are going like, well, but that's not actually my lived experience. So how do I look at this here and go? Well, what is true about that, if I am reading, this is not a, like, a limitation on what I can achieve and more a description of my internal being, it's like, oh, yeah, you probably like, are gonna need some alone time. And that's something that you should prioritize, because you do want to be someone who is out in the world. And in order to do that, let's be tender to this thing. Instead of going, No, I'm not that I'm, I'm an outward person. I don't care what this thing says it is that like, oh, no, like, there's this. And this, my friend has her son in the 12th house, which if you read everything, it's like, oh, really shy and whatever. And she's a stand up comedian. And it's like, yeah, so she's also doing that. So it can't be like, none of them are like, sentences. Yes. Information and gateways to, to. Yeah. Except it's and, and I, what you're what you're emphasizing here, right? It's like there's, there's different ways, the way for instance, you could take 30 drops of akinesia, for cold, and you take two drops of it as a flower essence for a spiritual or emotional issue. That you can look at the same thing, and you can look at the words and it could mean one thing and you don't have to take it. So literally, yes. And you know, as you said, like an external representation of who you are. But there could be some part of yourself that needs that quiet, internal reflection time. And I think that who we are, when we're 19, versus who we are when we're 40. I mean, GART my first chart that I remember having read was when I was 19. And it's talked about how dance and gardening were going to be really important to me. And at the time, I was like, you know, us is like what you're talking about, and gardening is a massive part of my life now. So yeah, yeah. Well, that's it. Yeah, you have your chart for your whole life. It's not just yeah, the older you get, I feel like the warrior like life is both incredibly short, but also like, so long. And so like, there's so many things that can happen and to be to be open to that I'm excited to see. I feel like every time I look at my chart, I see something different. And it gives me a new a new perspective on on myself in this way. And to think about how that's going to change as I get older and looking forward to things and being like, Oh, I have no, there isn't anything that feels like it means one thing. It's just like, Oh, I'll know what this is when it's happening. And I can't wait to see what that feels like, Huh? I'm so so I'm so curious. I had your husband on my on my show. Right. And so first of all, I'm so curious, did you did you read? Did you listen to it? I've listened to some of it. I didn't finish the whole episode. I feel like I go through periods where I like listen to everything he does. And then there are other times when I'm like I can't I can't only he can't be like the only voice Absolutely. Well and I because I was curious how that how it was for you. I mean, and I know that he's so he's so public out there. He's a comedian and so you know, you know, there's probably nothing that he he said that you don't know. But I was also just curious what your if you did listen to it, and if you haven't, that's totally fine. what your experience was? No, I think it's always fun. It's it's always something that I feel like I get a little bit nervous for and then I hear it and it's always like wonderful and learning something not necessarily new but it's always interesting hearing someone that you talk to a lot talk to someone else what is the same and then also kind of how they I don't know it was funny hearing him kind of give the like story answers because I know like the facts and I know these things from talking with him for the years that we've been together and how we've had these conversations about this stuff and in in various forms, but kind of hearing the like the story of it a little bit more Is, is fun to me, I think it is part of my performance. And part of being a stand up I think very much comes from like being in control of what I say about myself. And while I am very public and open, I'm also, you know, calculating in particular about what I am sharing. And so there's always some nerves and having someone else to share about you. But I think it's very much been a wonderful experience and trusting someone else to have your best interest still when they're sharing about themselves. And then that's like, okay, for him to share his experience and it both be honest, and maybe things that I wouldn't share, but also know that it's like, caring for me and for our relationship. And it's, like, good hearted, and it's, it always makes me feel. While it's like scary, sometimes I'll put off listening to something I always feel good afterwards and feel very seen and and support it. Good. I'm, yeah, no, it totally does. So I listened to some really old not really old. That's all relative, right. But like, 2014, I think he would probably just gone on a date with him. I was like, I wonder if she you're talking about a date? And I was like, yeah, yeah. So curious. And I was just thinking, knowing a little bit about his history. Yeah. And then thinking about the fact that you're an astrologer. And wondering about you, did you look at your charts together as you went through these different phases of your relationship? And what did you how did you navigate that? I try not to identify, it's also a thing that I like, don't recommend for people, especially if you're just dating someone, because you don't know what it means yet. I think like looking back, I didn't look at his chart until I mean, we were probably living together. When I looked at his chart. Actually, I knew, I knew I knew his sun sign, and I knew some things. But then there's also that, like, I didn't know enough about astrology, when we first started dating to have like, put our charts together. And even still, I tried kind of not to do it, because I feel like it is something that I struggle with is definitely like, taking everything I was like, in a me job. And so I think if I see the astrological chart, then I go like, Oh, well, he's going through this transit, I'm going to take action, and I'm going to do something on that. But it's not something that I'm going to talk to him about or ask him how he's feeling. And so I feel like for me, sometimes in our relationship, it can cut off those conversations. I don't think that's true for everybody. But it definitely wasn't something that I consciously use. Although he's an Aries, I'm a savage son. And that is like, on paper, definitely, immediately a match where they go like, yeah, that's a good match. And so it is those things where you go like, Oh, yeah, we're good. Matt. Like, I always had those things to kind of push out. If I was ever having, you know, second thoughts or, or was feeling insecure about anything. I was like, well, we're, this is a good match. You can keep kind of pursuing that years ago, I was in Bali, and I met this woman who was choose into Vedic Astrology. And she told me that she was working very closely with this one Vedic Astrologer that had this. Well, I don't know, it's like a little thing you could enter the people's birthdays in, and it would just like poop out this really short chart. Right? So it's like, not a big full thing. She said that she wouldn't go even on a first date with someone without doing that. And she done like 35 charts for people? Yeah, I think it depends. It just depends. I think for some people, it can be really helpful for me, I feel like I am so want to, like, be what someone wants, in a way that's both empowering and people pleasing and all of these things. But it's, it's there is a part of that where I feel like it sometimes for me personally becomes like a, I'm too aware of them and their needs and their things that I'm not thinking about how this is actually making me feel or is this a good? Is this something worth contorting yourself into? Or is it not? And so I think that if you are someone who also is just like, there is something too that I think of saying no, I'm just not going to do it like without this without this info. If this isn't a match, I'm just not even gonna go there as much as people are like, Oh, don't do that. People say like, Oh, I'm not going to date lawyers or something to like, you do have to, at a certain point, just make a decision to pursue or not pursue something, you can't pursue everything. You know, so also it's like, if it works for you, great. I feel like knowing it, sometimes it will. I just will I will make things mean things I'm already trying to do that I'm always trying to, like, stop myself from, you know, creating stories and creating scenarios that maybe are not like there or healthy, that's again, I'm the creative, the creative impulse I love, I love and I want to be tender towards but I also know can absolutely spin me into things that are not that aren't out there or are not healthy or are, you know, enabling behaviors in myself and others that are not always useful. And to me, knowing that, I like to get a sense of someone before I look at the chart, if it's someone that I know, like, personally, obviously prefer reading differently. But yeah, I think that's it's so important to know what you're, you know what your Achilles heel is, or what the thing is the sand traps that you fall into, habitually. And so I love that you are cautious around that, right. And I think that's something that we could all do. It's like, okay, I know, I have a tendency to do this certain thing. So and that's one thing, honestly, it seems like looking at your own chart could help you see, it's like, oh, there's this tendency. So I'm going to keep my eye on that and see where that shows up. And where that's true. Yeah, I'm doing that again. Yeah. I also think in my relationship, like you said, I mean, it's funny, because when Steve did your podcast, it had been a minute since I had heard, I guess it's not since I'd heard him on the podcast. But when we first started dating, he had a podcast, like, I've been hearing about myself and our relationship through his podcast, for the entirety of our relationship. And so it also feels like something very, very big baked in, and it's actually something that I'm really grateful for, in a lot of ways, because I feel like in my past relationship experiences, people you don't know, it's so hard to know how people feel about you. And then to have this kind of, like, gift of someone speaking openly about their experience and having it be a thing that they like, especially when we were first dating, you know, hearing, hearing it go from this is a person that I'm dating to then like, by name, and now I am a character. And this too is also kind of, like, low key, what I've kind of always wanted is to have someone you know, be be expressive and effusive about me in a way that's very, like, public and, and open and honest to that I feel like I had had not had before that. So. I mean, you collaborate, and you co host this comedy show. And so you, you do have that you have this, like public, someone's claiming you in this way, right, beyond quote, unquote, marriage, you know, but just really like, partnership and this other way. Yeah. Yeah, that's something that's like, I wouldn't have known necessarily that that was something that was important to me, but it is something that makes me feel very safe and seen and supported and all of those things. So it's, it's always, you know, I don't know, I think I also am a little bit of a, you know, glutton for punishment, in terms of, you know, hearing, I'm like, I want to hear, I want to hear what people really think, or I want to hear those critiques and whatever. And it's not, but it's also it's always sweet and nice and nothing, nothing that you don't know. I don't know. Well, it's, I mean, jeez, I feel like being a stand up comedian is a massively courageous act. And like, you're like, are what are your people really think? I mean, you're gonna hear what people are gonna say? No, I don't. I mean, like, I mean, like, how do you not, you know, are you sparring? Because I'm not coming to LA to see the thing. But like, are you sparring? And like making jokes about each other the whole time? Like, no, it's funny. I feel like we also just like, love each other. We like each other so much. And we we don't host together super often, although we have we have and we did recently, and it was very fun. And, and funny, I think that that there is something that hosting together requires you to be a little bit more adversarial that I just like don't like being with him, because I love him. And also, it's very, you know, that's a fraught situation as much as it is like, you know, we're on stage. It's hard. I just feel like those things are hard to separate to, but I think we're definitely at a point in our relationship, both with each other as collaborators as as husband and wife. So funny. It feels so formal and funny. Husband and wife, but we Yes, we hosted together recently and it was so much fun. People loved it, and you can also do it. It feels almost like a cheat in a way because you have a shorthand with each other in this way. And there's a comfortability there that I just don't think there would have been at other points in our relationship necessarily, but I'm excited to do that. More, I think going forward, sweet. So Does it feel like you're in a sweet period? In your relationship? I mean, like, you know, there are definitely always cycles and relationships. Yes. I think that we are in a sweet period. I think that yeah, we're we're, I feel like not not to be corny about it. But I feel like there's always smell that's not true. I was like, I could pick up some, I can think of some cycles where it was not as sweet for sure. But we're definitely I think we're in a sweet, a sweet spot right now. Well, I mean, you know, you for people who have not listened to this previous episode. If you're curious, Steve Hernandez was on my season one, you can look back and do cross referencing. And so one of the things that him and I discussed was about being in a poly relationship. And him being a bisexual man, and he's married to a woman. Right? And he's also sober. Right on so you mentioned something about, you know, being a people pleaser, or codependent or enabling, you didn't say codependent, you said enabling, which to me, it's like, the I don't know if you go to Al Anon or anything like that. But like, you know that that language goes alongside with being codependent. And so what's it like for you to navigate that relationship? I think the sobriety part, I mean, all of the things, and I think this is also because he's older than me, too. But I think that there's a lot of things that it feels like, he just kind of gets there a little bit for me, but it's also places where we kind of are headed the same, the same direction. And his experience is definitely one that helps guide, my experience, or also is just like a first sobriety for sure. That I feel like has been not, not the easier one, but definitely the one that I feel like has just required me to be empathetic and present. And, you know, mindful, I'm someone I I do not consider myself an alcoholic, but I definitely have tenuous relationship with substances, as I think many creative people do. And also when you do comedy, and you just can, you are out in bars every night of the week, and it's a thing that's completely acceptable. And all of that it's hard to, it's hard to know if this is a healthy relationship or not. And so I think that his sobriety has definitely helped me be clear with my relationships with that, but it's also not necessarily a I don't think that one was as difficult certainly for me, I know it was difficult for for him. And that's something that I just have to be kind of sensitive to end mindful of. But I think that one wasn't as much of a like, there were definitely a part of me that was like, I know, you sit, they say in the program that you're not supposed to be dating and that so you know, at the beginning, I'm like, are we gonna have to break up because you have to get sober and this sort of thing, but then just being like, No, this is I think a thing that you have to be just present with someone while they're on their journey. And and, like, let them I think a lot of it is just like letting someone else be be going through something be in pain, and how do you not try to fix that, but just be be there for them and not say not try to minimize it or say that it's not that or not try your best to not take it personally while still saying, you know, be be be cool, don't be this isn't licensed to be totally awful. But it also is like a difficult season for you. And just to be aware of that. And then I think with the, you know, poly non monogamy stuff. It's also a thing that while I don't I don't disagree with anything philosophically, it's not necessarily for me based on my experiences, in terms of like, Steve is my first real relationship period. That's also kind of my thing, where I'm like, I kind of wait until I feel like I've figured it out and then go like, well, this is the one I'm this is the one I'm choosing to figure this stuff out with my experience having not been in having not had monogamous relationships of any kind prior to that, you know, relationships with other people doesn't feel like freedom. To me, it feels like, again, a bunch of other data where I'm trying to figure out who I need to be for this person. And I really like the person that I am growing into and becoming and finding more of, especially with Steve, I think he is someone who is such a strong person and knows himself in such a way that he brings that out in me in a way that no one else has a feels like a thing where I go like not I don't see that that's not ever a way that I would that I would feel and again, seasons and things right now. That's like not how I feel, but also understanding that we are at different places in our lives. And if that's something that he needs, also to continue his growth then if that's something that I am allowed to kind of feel, to me it's more about like I can feel Know what I'm feeling and also recognize that that's something that he needs to do. And while it's not, it's not necessarily easy or conventional or without effort and work and, and introspection, I think that that's something that I'm definitely not opposed to and find, for the most part, like, helpful. And it does really bring us closer, I think, or makes us at least honest with each other in a way that I don't know if I would be were that not a component in the relationship, it's hard to say, you know, because it is like, such, it's so baked in and so to be like, would this be different, of course, it would be different. Now we're talking about a different relationship. But I do think, you know, as a person that is on the codependent spectrum, that having someone who is also kind of demanding me to be my own person, and to be like, not demanding also, you know what I mean? Yeah, like that. This is what that this is, what this situation calls for is for you to be kind of mindful of yourself in a way that I don't know if that would be present in other relationships. And I'm grateful for that. And I know that it is it continues to, I mean, help me grow and figure figure things out. I need someone to be like, Yeah, you got to also be like, taking care of you. It's not that I was like, not my not my default. And it's very helpful. And and yeah, I think you set out really well, when you were, you know, talking about you're like, okay, so somebody else might need to partner with multiple people for their evolution and for their self reflection. And that for you, you're like, This is the person that I feel like I'm really deepening into myself with that he's, he's who I've chosen. And I feel like he's enough for me to do that. That self reflective work, and there's a way that that the structure of your relationship is requesting you could demanding all of it is asking you to constantly check back in and know absolutely, because if you're in an open relationship, you there is that constant checking in of like, Is this is this okay with me? Is this okay with me? Is this detail? Okay with me? You know, what, what? How does it feel for me? Yeah. And so that asks a lot of you, for sure. You know, and I'm so glad that you're partnered with someone that you enjoy so much. That and that, you know, that you feel like, oh, yeah, this is the person I am going to do my work with. Yeah. You know, that's an important thing, when you can find somebody that you resonate enough with. Yes, yeah, yeah. Relationships or work all kinds, not just romantic ones, every single every single one. And I think, being the same way that I like the, in astrology. And maybe this is, maybe this is again, like self protective in a way too. But there is something to me that goes like, well, this, you kind of know what the work is, when you are agreeing to be in, in an open relationship where it goes, like, you know, this is the work not that there's also not going to be other you know, life things that happen, but the same way where it feels like you can kind of know what you're undertaking in a certain, a certain way. I think that makes it easier to like I don't know be be looking for ways to grow and open again, while it's like that's not for me, it's not as important in relationships. I also don't feel as like, I like I'm, I'm a Capricorn moon. I've strong Saturn in my chart, too. I'm like, I like I like rules and boundaries. And that feels like that's where you, for me, that gives me the space to play and to, and to grow and explore and all of that. It's not being like you can do whatever you want. That for me is like an endless that that gives me like analysis paralysis of like, yeah, too many kinds of choices, if that makes sense. But all of that to say is that I think it is still worth thinking. Like, well, if it's not that Where else can I be? Where else can I invite more openness? Where can I invite more like, unorthodoxy? Where can I? Where can I recognize where I might be, you know, upholding a system that isn't actually a system that I believe in? Or that I subscribe to, but I'm just kind of doing because this is that? Is this actual? Is this actually what I believe? Is this how I think things function best or is or is this worth investigating? So then I think that it's also like, you know, not as just like anything, it's always I think it's the unknown is scarier than then the actual practice of it. And the actual practice, practice of it, I think, is a lot more it's a lot more just like, you know, conversations and not, not just thought exercises, but that thing of even just like allowing, I think there's so many people that don't even allow themselves intellectually to to envision Like what being your own person in a relationship not being a thing where you are like, this is a done we made this decision and now it's over kind of thing. And and I think just thinking of anything Mother it means through non monogamy or just through the nature of life growing and changing and wanting to go and do something whether that means I think people get scared that someone is like, I married a doctor and if someone wants to then become a yoga instructor or something like that, like even even thinking of it in those terms of like, just allowing people to kind of grow into who, who they want to be or who what makes them happiest if it means not living somewhere living somewhere, getting a job not getting a job, any any just opening, opening up to thinking broader than just like, well with other people components. Absolutely. I really, I really liked that. And, you know, this notion that my stability is dependent on you not growing and changing. Yeah, and I need you to stay the same way. It's almost like if you married someone who's a musician, and you're like, you used to make acid jazz, you have to always make acid jazz, you cannot evolve and God forbid you ever played country or whatever? Yeah. So it's the permission and if anything, this total support of our chronic evolution and and ability to change and evolve as humans. I mean, I would really, I wish I had the, I have it on my cell phone. There's a quote from real Kay about this. And it's basically like, you know, being a protector of each other solitude. You know, it's like that we that, let me get it, but I'm off roading right now like, we're in the sand dunes. We're deep for loss and sun is setting we only have power bars and no water or fuck. I I'm gonna look for the quote. Let's see if I can find it. Oh, yeah. Okay. So this real key quote, a good relationship is one in which each partner appoints the other as guardian of his solitude. A merging of two people is an impossibility. Word seems to exist, it is a hemming in a mutual consent that robs one party or both parties of their fullest freedom. Once we accept that, even between the close people, infinite distances exist, a marvelous living side by side develops, which gives us the possibility of seeing each other as hole and before an immense sky. I love that. So yeah, I mean, I'm curious for you what is and it doesn't even just have to be sexual freedom. But you know, erotic freedom, freedom itself, what is that for you? Oh, well, freedom to me, feels like being able to try things being able to like, experiment and fail to see what you to to be able to have like the idea and then also to be able to change and say I didn't actually like that. So it's both it's both the like, the the imagination and the creativity and also being able to like not be not be locked into that. Well, a lot of knowing what you like, or what feels good is sometimes knowing what you don't like, right, you try it. You're like, yeah, that doesn't work for me, but I have the freedom to choose that. And now I'm actually going to choose this other thing. Yes. I think it's very easy. Or at least for me, I don't know if this is true for everyone. I know. I know when it's a no. I like Yes. Feels like anything can be a yes. Until it's a no. And then once it's a no then you know, but but it also is like I don't know everything. Anything's possible. Everything is possible. Anything is is like could be fun. Even a thing that I don't know could be fun is fun. And I think like I don't know what's best for me, always. Sometimes someone else, like sometimes my judgemental brain goes like, oh, no, you wouldn't like that. But then when I'm there, I'm like, Oh, this is wonderful, or whatever. So it is the like, you know, taking, taking risks, taking a gamble and agreeing to like assess the situation accurately, not without a preconception of what has to kind of happen. Mm hmm. Absolutely. I think that that's a message that a lot of people you know, they're like people that live in a narrow box of shoulds. Right? It's like, this is how I should behave. This is what's right, this is what my life should look like. And when you give yourself the freedom to, to go against that and to take that risk, so much can open for you and that's Yeah, beautiful thing. I think for me, I feel like I'm pretty. It's funny because at the same time I feel like I'm an intensely kind of free and uninhibited person. Yeah. To me, I think it's hard sex has been one of the hardest things for me not for myself necessarily, but it feels like such a, like culturally fraught thing that so many people have not felt don't aren't clear, like where, how they feel about it and how they feel about themselves and their own desires. And so I think as someone who is, I feel like I have had very explicit conversations with people about sex, or very explicit communication about saying, like, I mean, even just being like, Hey, I would like to have sex. Are you interested in having sex? How much people are, are weirded out by just open communication to that feels? To me Sex feels like a place that, you know, that quote, that's like, everything is about sex, except for sex, is that it's like, yeah, exploring sex to me feels like sex is the worst place to do it. You should do it through all of these other kinds of like, artistic and intellectual kinds of ways to get to know people. But the amount of people I'm thinking to I just went to Austin, Texas for a friend's bachelorette party. And we were at this Spartan springs, this like, natural springs pool. And yeah, I guess they have lacks bra laws, so you can be topless. And you'd think that like, or maybe, would it? I'm just always surprised, like, there was like, nobody, you're, it's allowed. It's not a rule. And no one was being weird, but almost nobody was doing it, too. So it was also it's also this, like, I don't I don't know, I think that we're I think that we are like on the precipice of people becoming more aware of developing their own relationships with their sexuality and desire and embodiment in those ways. And not to say that I have it all figured out. I definitely don't but I think I'm I'm grateful that I did not have a lot of moral messages about sex in terms of it just being a thing that felt like a natural thing that everybody I think that everybody does that it's it's not like a thing to be weird about that doesn't mean that I don't have my hang up, certainly, as a woman and in the world, certainly picked up on, you know, people's feelings about things. But I do think that, like, it's complicated, all of it's just such a complicated thing that it feels hard to, like, really find. It doesn't feel free yet, if that makes sense. Well, it completely makes sense. We're in Oh, my God. I mean, and endlessly, endlessly. I mean, you know, we're, we're, we're lucky we're not being arrested and killed for not wearing the right. Yeah. Clothing. But so it's all absolutely relative freedom. We are so so lucky in certain ways in North America. And yeah, yeah. I mean, we I'm in a, well, Europe, you're also in California. I'm like, we're at a little less liberal bubble. Yeah, with our rights that we have. I mean, if it was in California, everyone would have been topless. Right. Like people are topless, when they're not supposed to be talking to us in California. So yeah. Um, so one of the things that I do at the end of every episode is I have an exercise some kind of practice, I really am a big believer in practices for to support change and to support evolution. And I'm curious if there's anything that you have that you would love to share with our listeners about a five minute practice of some kind? Yes, I do have one. And it's but it's very, it's very short. It's not even five minutes, although I think you could extend it depending on what's available to you. But this is my favorite thing. That's also just like my, I feel like I've done it enough that it now it's a shorthand, and it's just like, No, no practice. You can just say it really, really slowly over five minutes. Yes, no, while ideally, you would be doing this in a space where we can, we can get grounded. First, my favorite way to begin being grounded is to feel my feet. If you aren't wearing shoes, just feel your feet on the ground, feel whatever is underneath your feet, but I also like to often tell people to feel their feet in their shoes. I feel like saying grounded is one that people like hear this phrase, but they don't even know necessarily how to do that. So feel your feet in your shoes. If you have them on feel the ground under you if that is not as evocative like, I also think feeling the weight of your body and whatever you are sitting on, feel the chair, the couch the earth underneath your bum up against your back, and then just put your hands on your chest. Feel the weight of your hands on your chest, maybe notice your breathing. Notice your heart rate. And then just say, I'm here for you. And you're saying that too. You, yourself that you that whose cycle you're following, but also to the EU who may be is harder to, to show up for to the EU that's feeling petty or thing or it's feeling sensitive about something you're not sure if you should be feeling for that just hands on your chest and say, I'm here for you. Tonight, thank you, you know, one of the things that I do a lot of with clients and myself, and it's a real parenting process, right? Like, we don't always have the external support that we need, and it's not too late to give it to ourselves. And so what I was picturing you before going out on a stage, you know, getting grounded, and, and being like, however, this goes, you know, this is totally a projection, but that's what I was imagining. But like, however, this goes like I'm here for you. Right here, I'm here with you. Yes. And it's an important thing to, to not always look externally for what we need, but to remember that we're we can be here we can be that support for ourselves. And I think so many times when you feel like you're going to feel there's so many things that we feel like we're not supposed to feel, or that or that you have to fix or get away from or something. And I just find the like I said, Now I feel like it's a shorthand for me, where if I just kind of put my hands on my chest, I know that's like what that means. I don't have to always say it, but I always find saying it out loud, is like, sometimes I'll cry sometimes. Sometimes it's like the thing that you needed to hear that you never heard. But I think it also just keeps you in. Like, if that's what you're feeling right now. That's what you're feeling like be be here for it. Don't try to run away from it, it doesn't mean that it's going to overtake you. And it doesn't have to be the only thing that you ever feel. But it is like, be there for yourself. For you, and acceptance for the snarky parts. Yeah, all right, all of that to all of those things. You know, I've been grateful to be in a in, I guess it would be considered somatic therapy, where it is just like being being present for those like bratty parts and saying, like, I hear you, I hear maybe maybe this isn't who can like run the meeting. But I I hear your notes, and we'll address them later. And no part no part is not invited to the table when we are having these like discussions and thoughts and feelings. Well, it's what's so important about that is that, you know, when we just tried to deny and shut down a part of ourselves, it's still there, and it still leaks out. And you think about if you're in a dialogue with another external, real human, you know, apart from yourself, if you keep cutting that person off and telling them to shut up, what did they do? They're gonna want to yell louder, and talk over you. And so what resist persists. And so those parts of you, the more that you actually go, tell me more about why you're so upset. Teenage snarky. Yup, whatever part, then, you know, then that part is like, Oh, I'm actually heard. Thank you and then fill out some right. It's usually just a part of us. That's sad and scared and feeling left out. Literally, you're invited. What else? Tell me more. We'll definitely we'll definitely do something again in the future. I can tell. That'd be fun. Yes. All right. All right. Take good care. Bye. Bye. Thanks for joining us today, you make this possible. In order to support the podcast I've started a Patreon where I plan to release exclusive content you won't be able to find anywhere else online. I'll be offering meditations in depth exercises that relate to specific episodes. And behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. You can find my patreon@www.pa T ar e o n.com backslash, Li D open pod ca st to learn more about how you can support our community. Another way you can support the podcast is by writing, reviewing and sharing it with friends so others can find our community of healing. You can also follow me at late open podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate life.org. Until next time, may this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself.

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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