Podcast

A Feeling Man is a Liberated Man with Logan Cohen

While I don’t know Logan Cohen personally his authenticity, the deep work he has done on himself, and his willingness to feel his feelings and allow his vulnerability to shine through. I’m moved by the vital offering Logan contributes to the world as an author, a psychotherapist, and a trauma professional. He is bringing quality content to TikTok and IG, as well as through his work with couples and individuals in private practice. 

Logan Cohen is a remarkable man driven by a purpose, being of service, helping men develop emotional intelligence, and educating people about the impacts of trauma.

In his book “How to Hu(Man) Up in Modern Society: Heal Yourself and Save the World,” he puts gender role conditioning into a historical and social context. We discuss the importance of healing within the community, his work with volatile couples, and dealing with narcissists.

Plus, we speak about how the suicide of his friend led him to write his book, the work he had to do in his personal and professional life to see his privilege as a man and unlearn his social and emotional conditioning, and his close relationship with his grandfather, who was holocaust survivor on Schindler’s List and how that has informed his commitment to building empathy in the world and being of service.

We wrap up the episode with Logan leading an exercise around developing more awareness and connection to what you are feeling. There’s so much essential content in this episode, which is why I’m starting the season with it. I hope you’re ready to be as impacted by Logan’s work as I am.

Show Notes Welcome to season three of Laid Open podcast. I'm so happy to be back behind my mic and have even more to offer you. Now that I've launched a Patreon, if you feel you receive value from these episodes, you can also get additional bonus exclusive content such as meditations, in depth exercises, and behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. All of that and more is available at www.patreon.com backslash L A I D OPENPODC A S T. That's www.patreon.com/laidopenpodcast. By supporting us on Patreon, you're not only contributing to the creation of this podcast, you will also provide the support needed for me to work on my book workshops, online courses and additional free content. This week's guest is Logan Cohen. He's a professional therapist in private practice, and a clinical supervisor in Charlotte, North Carolina and someone who I admired on Tiktok and Instagram regarding the value of the content he's creating. He's doing some really important work with men and men's mental health and doing education around masculinity, some would call it toxic masculinity and the conditioning around shame and pushing down of emotions. Logan works with individuals, couples and men in particular offering trauma recovery and violence prevention. He's also the author of How to Hu(Man) Up in Modern Society: Heal Yourself and Save the World. Welcome Thank you so much Charna. Thanks for having me.  Yeah, I'm really glad that that you were available to do this. And I've really been enjoying what you're putting out into the world.  Thank you.  So you were saying in terms of your book, that your intention behind it was to really create a text used in graduate level. I wanted to be able to serve as this as a text for cultural competency. To look at masculinity, I think it's generally the assumption is because we live in a patriarchal society, that everything is inherently under, it's understood that it is masculine, there's like a full, all the masculine needs to be there, like under the having elders at the table. So there's been there's been this feminist critique, which is incredibly important to have the especially for marginalized voices and all this stuff. But there's also like, you know, half the population happened to be dudes. And they're actually holders of most of the privilege and the capital and the resources in the world these days, because we're coming off those 30,000 years of isolated farming communities where they will feudal lords, so we can't get these fellows at the table, like we can to do it. Yeah. And that that was the other part of it is, is I wanted to also be able to serve as as an author who recently wrote a book called The white fragility. Okay. I want to be able to be something that men could read to understand the blind spots of their own privilege and how it's actually hurting them. Yeah, in a non threatening way. Right. I feel like you did a good job of giving that historical context. Oh, hey, no. Toshi wants to come and say hi, come say hi, was Toshi, Toshi. Hey, so what kind of doodle is Toshi? Toshi is a golden doodle. Something that I want to get to you. But I want to finish this thought is, I think it was in your podcast, or maybe it was in the book I can't remember but used to do dog training told me. That's totally interesting to me. But let's see, what were we talking about? Yeah, doing giving, there's a tone in the in the book that I could tell kind of more of your target audience, you know, and you're wanting to offer there's a certain kind of, it's not just like a self help book. It's, this is this is the history. This is how things have come to be. Right like what you're, you're pointing to in terms of the history of of, of agriculture and farming. Did you read the book untrue? No, by Wednesday, Martin, and I'm not going to do injustice, but I highly recommend that in the context of that, that topic, she writes a book about the history of women's sexuality and lost and infidelity and how everything that we know, is mythical and not accurate and what it's based in. And so the culture, yes, but it also was really interesting to see how how farming and you know, the isolation and and what was needed in terms of so it's like, the, the other side of your research is via Belkin in her book, and it's, um, it's a really good book anyways, but it's super cool in me like, it's a call to action type book. Yeah, yeah. So like, I'm trying to do what I can to control to push sociological evolution of human beings that this was like, you know, can? Well, there's so much one of the things I was struck by is, you know, thinking about the the social social isolation that we were in during COVID. And how men live in as a result of having to keep so much being conditioned to keep so much emotionally inside, there's a level of automatic daily, you know, almost normalizing of that kind of social emotional isolation that they live in, and how then that was magnified during COVID. And I was curious if you wrote this book during that time. So I actually, I wrote that book, right before COVID. Oh, wow. Wow. So I wrote that book, after your news that some other childhood friends died from suicides and overdoses. Yeah. And that's when I started getting more active in social media just period. There was like, Okay, well, this is everyone's paying attention to these machines. Apparently, that's where I have to go. Even my friends aren't asked me for help. So I did a bunch of research. And it was just like a passion question I had to answer. And I realized that there was so much wrapped up in these really rigid gender constructs that are keeping everyone really sick in, especially men in ways that they couldn't even consciously identify because it leads to such a systemic lack of integration. So, though, there'll be more books that come out of all this stuff, but where I saw my kind of own call or responsibility was to speak to this part first? Yeah. And then, yeah, and then, and then the pandemic happen, but I was going, thank God, I just wrote that book. Seriously, you know, I found you through tick tock, like a random thing showed up, you know, it's like how the algorithm works. And I was really impressed. Because a lot of the time, they're such kind of just shallow, meaningless stuff. And I like entertainment. But I also really liked apps. And I felt like, Oh, my God, I'm so glad this guy's on here doing this, I felt like it was you were being of service. And, you know, trauma education in bite sized digestible pieces is so important. And I really appreciate your focus on you know, I understand what you're saying about. Okay, so, you know, here's the canon, and it's all male voices. And, and so let's focus on female voices. And absolutely, and I was a feminist film theory student. And, you know, I wrote all those papers and took all the cultural studies classes. And what I see is, is how much the conditioning of men is as painfully damaging as the conditioning of women. So this is a little a little off topic, but it feels significant in relation to this. Like I really saw the theory of this in play when I worked at good vibrations, work her own sex toy store in San Francisco. And right, she got in my 20s, and at the time identified as a lesbian, and I would have these, you know, straight men come in to the store. And at the time, I I hadn't healed my own sexual trauma. And I lived in a lot of fear of penises and men. And sure, fair enough, yeah. And these are these men would come in and if they wanted to explore their butts, or if they dealt with any kind of inability to get erections, they had so much shame. And it just, I suddenly started to see men in three dimension, rather than seeing them as potential perpetrators. I really started to see their vulnerability and and how much culture was oppressing them. Yeah, were you gonna say? Yeah, and we were talking about dogs a moment ago, and I kind of, like think about generally speaking like men as like working dogs, like the good so what we've evolved over, like just, you know, eons of human Evolution would primarily be responsible for warring and hunting. Because if women die, like our whole tribe is asked, we're wiped out. So that those were the roles. And so we've made it so much more fast twitch muscle. And it's a huge privilege, the huge responsibility to have to try to do our darndest to keep especially marginalized voice safe with that privilege. However, at the same time, just like a working dog, it's just as much of a dog as any other dog. It has dog needs, it has social deeds, and he's going to walk, it has intellectual needs, it needs to be part of a pack. It's totally rough. Sometimes it's needed. So it's a whole animal to and and then if you have all the social and cultural pressures to systematically block that animal from integrating the needs of its species, it becomes an unstable, high horsepower.  It's not as the most dangerous. Right, right. Well, and it's, you know, if you think about, there are dogs that get adopted that have had trauma, right, like it's they show it shows up in their nervous systems, just like it shows up in human nervous systems, right? And then they're not stuck, you know, they because of that trauma, they either are afraid of other humans or afraid of other dogs. And it's very clear, right? They demonstrate it. I was curious how you got into dog training, and then also how because so much of it is like, it's about training, training the human more than it is the dog. There's so much around energetics and groundedness. And being conscious of what your energy is doing to communicate with the dog. And I was curious, I know you did wilderness therapy with kids. And I was curious about the use if you had done that before working with kids, and how that then you applied that with the kids, and then also how you may have applied that with your own kids. Holy, good question. The Wilderness work was actually before the dog training, learning to do the behavioral work with dogs, I'd always loved dogs, and we'd like felt easy to connect with them. They always liked me. It's pretty common kids that grow up with a lot of adverse childhood experiences and chaos going on of the week, that the more vulnerable entities are on the the outside of what's happening. So that's going to be kids and dogs, and they self soothe with each other a lot of times, folks who come from those households see like, we like dogs, and they seem to like us, it's always liked. There were dogs running around in the wilderness therapy setting like that program director, dogs like people who are in the entitled positions of dogs who are not creating a problem. And that was really nice. And I noticed that sometime we start getting different results when we have a dog hanging out with us. So I started training, getting more into training dogs, when I went to graduate school in Portland, Oregon, at a school called Lewis and Clark College. And we got out there and one of the first things that I need for a household to feel full is a dog, right, that needs happened. So we go the pound. And we find this dog this is like Rolie polie, high energy little smart puppy and I'm going like, Ooh, you're a fun project. I teach you how to do all that stuff. I got time. I'm just in grad school, whatever. And he turned out to be a Malinois pitbull mix. Oh, it's like Utah. Like that's, that's like irresponsible breed X event. He was super driving, he kicked my butt. Like I was so out of my element. And I raised dogs, even firm dogs not working dogs like that. So I had to go get trained. Because like, I'm impacted by the especially if I took responsibility for this animal.  So did that and fell in love with it. And very quickly realized that not only was it fun to teach him to do all this stuff, and we could, you know, hang out on a spring pole bouncing up and down and walk backwards upstairs with two feet and like us, like kind of like a big ol like goofy circus dog type thing by the end of it. But it was like, I realized that he read me faster than I could. Yes, yes, yes. So to manage my anxiety, all I had to do was take care him. Man, I can feel that or so I mean, after that point, and I got totally good by the bug. And I was a grad student I was working third shift at a group, a group home for adults with developmental delays and had some other time during days that I could be working. So I started taking on private clients doing that work, and I was already studying family therapy. At Lewis and Clark, so it became, they actually complement each other really well, like walk into a space with all these systems assessment skills. And see pretty quickly who the dog is leveraging influence with and acting out with. And I would focus on doing most of the training with that individual and we turn around and get things going. Then it was super fun. Oh my god, I'm so excited by that. That's it's so you know, I was really moved when I thought about this dog attuning to you, right? Just that what let what happens so often in a household where there's abuse or trauma, and we can get into that we haven't talked about any of your history there. But I just made an assumption there, that we don't get that attunement from, from the people who are supposed to be caring for us. And so that's why that's one of the things it's not just the, like, unconditional love that a dog offers. But there's some kind of attunement that, that we crave and need and for you to get that and then for you to then in turn, take that and then offer that and be able to use the skill you you develop to track and attune to all these other people who are in need is really is exciting and moving. Yeah, thanks. Thanks. They are really social animals as humans are in as dogs are as well. Card designed to mutually regularly. And with, you know, they they are different species, but we've co evolved with them for so long at this point, that dogs and people that are bonded to each other, definitely co regulate. That's what a service animal does. It's just that they have a dedicated job of CO regulation. And they indicate to a specific biochemical mark that they've been trained to recognize. But like anytime that you see someone stressed out in their dog just seems to pick it off and like in as soon as you select the petting starts, the you see like the dog get less and less stiff. And then you see the dog shake in like everybody's regulators. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for my dog. And she's, she's, she's a total emotional support dog for my clients. And, you know, I tell people, like, they're all these different ways that I work with people's nervous systems and having my dog in the room. She comes and goes, but she's really on point. And I even do body work with clients, and she'll even facilitate and she'll like nudge or put her head or her paw on the exact place like it's when she even sat on a client's face. I was about to work on my client's jaw. I was like, now you did it to your girl. I've never seen her do like, backed it up. Oof. Yeah, she'll, like, you know, just yesterday, she came and she was just like, putting her paw on my clients hand. And only part of that was because she wanted to be pet. But the other part was she just rested it there because my client was having a moment. You know, this is where you look upset. It's yeah, this is obviously very dysregulated right here. Can I hear? It's so sweet. Yeah. And I, you know, think about again, especially because you work with men a lot. And I'm curious like, Do you have a private practice where you work with couples and individuals but mostly men or what's the Yeah, so I started like a group counseling practice. I've other therapists that work around here. My my beat tends to be high conflict relationships, in trauma recovery work. Yeah, do a lot of infidelity, recovery work. Do a lot of work with folks who are going through deconversion from spiritual abuse. I practice in Charlotte, so I'm like a metropolitan area surrounded by the Carolina hills. So there's a lot of that happen. But yeah, I really see an intersection between recovery from spiritual work and sexual trauma, which I define more broadly than only sexual assault and sexual abuse. But also, all the ways that you know, whether it's having a family member who's an addict are mentally ill or physically abusive or growing up, you know, a person of color in a racist society, like all the ways we restrict ourselves and and start analyzing those oppressive narratives. Exactly. And how can it not affect your sexual self expression your hold or suppression right? Course? All the shame, right? Shame just shuts it all down. So I'm curious, how does that show up in your practice? Is that something else? Yeah, I do both talking about shame a lot consciously here as well as sex with couples. Mm hmm. I think I ended up doing a lot of sensate focus work. A lot of times with with couples where one individual has a lot of acute trauma, and just you know, dissociates Getting into sexual encounters with each other. And we can talk more about since eighth book and since you'd like it starts getting really technical and clinical at mindful masturbation is something I talk a lot about in doing episodes. But so yeah, I just I know I'm much better ring to it. Yeah. But yeah, so generally, people have a ton of shame, specifically around sex, especially in American culture. We were founded by Puritans, were part of my people who basically were as conservative as folks in Afghanistan who are bearing women up to their heads and stuff like that. These are people that were were anti progressive folks. And it is still very woven into American culture. If you traveled in Europe, and like watching TV being eventually sooner or later, you're gonna see a commercial for shampoo or soap, you're gonna see breasts, and you're gonna see butts. And you know, maybe even you know, I don't know, if you see a quarter of a penis or pubic hair yet, but uh, you know, we've actually go into that. In the States, Americans are going like, shit, like, what is this nighttime TV? What's happening now? It's just like you've lived in a culture where bodies are seen as shameful and pleasure is seen as shameful. Like the seven deadly sins. Five are emotions, one sex and one's an eating disorder. It's ridiculous. So one of the things I know, you said, you work with high conflict couples. And, and some imagining that one of the things that could show up in the room is domestic violence. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you're working with that. And, and, and, and, and that was part of your history as well, is that grew up with, I grew up with a lot of not physical violence in the home. But I grew up with a parent who had untreated mental health issues and active addiction and all the chaos that ensues when that's happening, right? Oh, and I was a rough pissed off, kid and teenager. Things to be pissed off about that made sense at the time, looking back at what's not a good enough reason, but choices or choices. And statistically, that's why I was hanging out with so many people that died by suicide and overdoses by that. Yeah. And I like late 30s, I was getting that news in the first job that I took out of undergraduate school and in the field was working in this wilderness therapy setting. And it was part of what made me feel more comfortable with it was like, ah, like, Johnny almost got shipped off to holidays. Like, I know, these kids like that made poor choices with these kids. So like I and very quickly, it became apparent that I got them and they got me I didn't come off as some kind of like authority to here he was there on that ego trip, it was pretty different. So the those are working with kids who are predominantly coming from households with domestic violence. And then from there went to a graduate school at Lewis and Clark, which is a super liberatory psychology based program, the huge proponent of it is violence intervention. Yeah. In this cultural competency, critical consciousness developments and all this good stuff. So right off the bat, I was getting exposed to cut a lot of the national leaders and thinkers from the liberatory psychology wave I collected in that small area where my professors were my academic advisors and I would like to invite into research with them, but they walked through power control wheels all the time, we started a cultural competency Clinical Center in Portland. Amazing, super cool. Again, and I was the only cisgender white dude, it was super cool. They're humbled. Yes, you got some good training? Oh, gosh, and I needed it. I needed it. The white kid that grew up in Georgia, I mean, you know, I, if inherently, Allman needed that a little bit more than women do if you're in a position of relative entitlement. You don't have to be exposed to the grit and the grind that everybody else has to figure out how to navigate. How are you supposed to seek mutual truth and understanding with other villagers if you can't walk a mile in their shoes, so there was a lot of accountability that I had to learn how to deal as they're as when we began, there were four other cisgender white dudes, by the end of it, they'll quit. It was like can't do this. But it also made me super comfortable. Devin was very direct conversations about all this stuff. And knowing what Mike angles are and what I can say and what I can't say it by heart like It's like I've been pretty thoroughly tested in space, right? Well, and also developing empathy. You're getting the practice of putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. Imagining what that experience is, like having having your own experience of powerlessness as a kid and in, in a situation where there's emotional violence, right? Which I think can, you know, it's hard because it doesn't leave marks in the same literal way. But it crushes and shapes people's self esteem and sense of worthiness or model's behavior that they then act on themselves and others, right. And so that sounds like that was really, really good training that you've then gotten to, you know, because you could have you could have made the choice to walk away from it and go in a different direction be like, peace out, that's not my thing. It brings up too much shame and discomfort, but instead you like went right into the fire. Yeah, I'm a little bit of a counter of like, oh, yeah, me too. Yeah. If something like I cannot handle something scary. I like I have to go deal with it directly. Yeah. won't tolerate. Yeah, I was the person who would volunteer for all the like, you know, process experiences in grad school. And people are like, Oh, you're so courageous. And I'm like, What do you mean? Like it didn't even register? The concept of me being courageous had never registered for me, because that's what it is. Right? It's this counter phobic move. Yeah. It's conscious doing forcing yourself to do it's here. Yeah, yeah. But the piece in there, you know, there's also a learning around, well, what are your boundaries? And when are you overriding them? Here when you're counter phobic, and you have to learn how to actually listen and slow down and not do that as much. And I'm curious, did you? Did you get that? Yeah, so mechanically, I'm still learning that now. Sure. It was a man, we have a whole other layer of conditioning to unlearn in order to do that, right. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So personally, my girl, I guess, is the parts that are always most difficult is either asking for help. Or, you know, getting granted myself space friends. Yeah. Yeah. If they'd given us a talk about it, yeah, I can feel like a reflects shame spots out. Free. Yeah, I know. It's not true. It's, I know, it's a feeling. It still happens. And it's okay. But it's something that is that is tough, and that I have to pay a lot of attention to it to theory. Right? Well, and I just you know, for if the listeners can't tell, one of the things that I'm really appreciating about you, that's that's happened throughout this dialogue, and I like I can feel it in my own body. And I'm also seeing you cry, right? There's tears rolling down your face. And it's a really beautiful thing to see your willingness to be vulnerable. And you've clearly done a tremendous amount of work that you can allow emotion, it's energy, the tears are just energy running through your system, right? It's like you're allowing the energy that arises to pass through and, and you're not shutting it down, which means it's not going to get stored in pockets of fascia. No, no, that's beautiful. I think it is. It's the this is what happens at this point. And adults especially when I'm sharing more about myself like there are different parts of my brain that are allowed to be access than when I'm had my clinical hat on but even when I'm have like predominantly my clinical hat on sometimes something does touch something whereby highs are gonna well up and tears are gonna come down on Monday and sit there boo boos make sure it's not you know, it's not your job to impair me, that's what's happening. That's, that's what's happening, or otherwise, you feel like you got to hide yourself. For me, none of this work one of my favorite, I learned over time that that actually trips off the predatorial switch also added with people in the room who are used to being coercive or manipulative. So right after they see that a lot of times in a window of one or two days, whoever the manipulators is in those faces will try to reach out to me directly and try to work something on that emotional angle specifically, ah, yeah, like get you on my side. And that way. It's like all happening, but it's also like, I know how y'all are. I'm gonna allow it to participate in the systemic enactment of what's occurring. And I'll like, I'll give me information that we can use from it will will walk was, I remember the first time that that happened, and then the victim of the victimized parent came to me afterwards, it was very concerned that I love my high school, well, he is going to see what's weak, and he's going to attack you and he's going to attack us. He does do all those things in reverse very clearly, because I really appreciate how scary that sound for you. And you're also showing very clearly what the family narrative has been around the open expression of emotion and what you can expect to happen in that space. And that's very important information, but I can tell you very clearly I can be a softy and also ensure that no one's going to get railroaded in this space at the same time and I'm glad that you get to start experiencing this field for the first time in your life too. And you see that you can do this with your kid and you can be warm and accessible yet set limits and do all this stuff. And that's really the kind of a moment the victimized parent was so like, oh, shit, like, that's therapists, therapist, God's human enough to show us humanity in that space with us. And I was so strongly conditioned teens violent expectations that I judged him for it until she was like, Okay, this is absolutely asked, we got where I gotta get. Right. Right. Right, when you're like, you're using yourself as a tuning fork in a way, and like you're giving them feedback, and really helping them see their belief systems and their conditioning. And you're transparent that way with the with the one parent, were you as transparent with the manipulative parent as well? No. Yeah, great, because you're like, I'm holding my card. Exactly. No, no, someone who's predatorial like that. Like, once I realized that they are not well intentioned, right? It becomes Sunsoo Art of War. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to hurt you. That is awesome. I like the aggressive like, I like close the deal. When I sit your rank start to fold, I'm also not going to tell you where I know, a valley is or where a stream of water is, or that I know you're preparing to flank her. I will tell her that in a similar way, as the parents would need to be doing parallel parenting with that individual instead of co parenting, individualized information diet, they're dangerous. It's impressive, because what you're describing, right? It sounds like a narcissist or a sociopath and that you're continuing, you're getting them to stay in the in the therapy, because so often they'll just fail. Yeah, but but maybe even more likely to stay if they think they can manipulate you versus you having boundaries with them. Right. Yeah, they stay long enough that they get exposed in an enactment that everybody can put their finger on it have the same objective reality for say, this person, it's an abuse of control. And everybody saw it athenee The therapist had the words for it, that made sense. We have our power and control wheels highlight and this is absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Good, good job. You know, like, I'm just, yeah, it's so it's so interesting. Like, everyone has their everyone has their niche, right, everyone has the thing that they have, like a lot of comfort, in ease and working with, right. And I'm so glad you're doing that work, because I don't really enjoy that. You know what I mean? Like I can, I can totally talk I can, you know, a lot of people don't have that comfort zone of speaking explicitly about sex, right, like, that's an area that I have a lot of ease in. And I work with trauma. And it's like, when I sniff out that level of sociopathy and narcissism. I am so happy to hand them over to you. It's just like, I got a high enough dose of that in my childhood. I'm like, I don't I can choose who's in my room, I sort of realized at one point during me too, right? Like, I was like, I had male clients coming in and talking about their experience with female colleagues, and what they were witnessing. And I was like, Oh, my God, it's why it worked for myself. I was done. I was done in childhood, I was like, I just need to be alone in my own room and choose who's here. I hear you. I think that kind of even further goes into one of the kind of basic ways that I tend to look at the world too, is that since I didn't have some of those some similar experiences that you did, and because I'm in a male body with a lot more fast twitch muscle. And I know that I can handle myself in a suit, like, um, I'm not trying to get like, I've never been in that situation. But I know it'd be fun. That's a lot of privilege to learn until, like, it's my responsibility to use it. Beautiful. I'm grateful for that. You know, let's do it with the speeder. Yeah, yeah. That desire is for more men to see that they can be in that role and take on that role. And for more white people to take on the role when they see that it's like ally ship is needed in other ways. And yeah, it becomes servant leadership. That's the that's the answer to everything. Well, just one of the things that I really appreciate about your focus and your in your book is the focus on community and building community resilience. Your heart is very clearly engaged in that book. And, and one of the things that I saw that I really appreciated was the influence of your grandfather. Like and I just want to speak to that. Your grandfather is a Holocaust survivor, and he was on Schindler's List, which is insanely powerful. That How could it not? I mean, it speaks to your heart, but also your connection, your grandfather, that that really has influenced your work and your service in the world and giving back and protecting being a protector? I really see that part of you. Yeah, you're, I mean, I didn't realize my grandfather was on until after he died. And someone told us, I mean, should have heard all the stories of being in the camps and the ghettos and all this stuff. They also spent a lot of time at his house because he lived in the same neighborhood. And it was a lot safer there than my own home. So that's where we hung out, and sort of where I am now. And after his funeral, he had a lot of survivor's guilt, did not talk about sugar in the back that he was ready, he felt incredibly ashamed and guilty about it. And after I relaxed, they got destroyed, he was rescued by Schindler. Wow, this German National Citizen, it was a registered member of the Nazi Party. Like to call these risks to rescue, you know, as many people as he could, if you go back and find interviews of that guy, he's like, I'm just crying as much as I have now. Yeah, how many people we could say if like, he wasn't enough, you know, and felt very indebted to him. And, and also realized pretty early on, you know, like that you can be a good leader without being aggressive, or authoritarian, and while looking out for the community. And later, I started to understand it as servant leadership. You know, I grew up in the synagogue that servant leadership is more of tends to be pretty New Testament D type of concept. And I ran into it a bit later than I realize that like part of these these aspects of the masculinity that get very sick and inverted and twist it into its own shadow, also blocks, blocks men from being healthy, happy, pro social individuals, and also blocks their resources from the community, and lose yourself in service to others and experience all this healthy ego death doing this. There's so much that basically, every theological tradition eventually breaks down in the servant leadership. And I think if everybody were able to look at whatever skills that we have available to us, whether they were forged in fire, like some of ours, or whether they were, you know, in other spaces and a craft, that the more you can use this to create access to resources for folks who wouldn't otherwise have the, the more it allows their biodiversity to be used in the collaborative effort. As humans or group problem solving machines. That's what we do varieties spice of life, like really how many I mean, like boats is roomy, how about this men have predominantly been used by the oligarchy, since isolated farming communities, to Elise communities, right, pay one half of the poor to kill the other, and then have been those lucky folks. That just it's super unfortunate. It's such a waste. And we're so turned around. Like right now, the socio political pendulum is swinging so hard. That inherently it starts looking like tribalism. That's all it's going to perpetuate. And that at the end of the day, that's human beings, greatest strength and our Achilles heel, we have to be able to remember that we are one species and globally connected species that we got to be able to figure this out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and it's the experience with COVID touches on what a global species we are, you know, and then and then, you know, I think about my experience and developing embody boundaries from not having any boundaries, like either very rigid boundaries as a teenager, but actually, inside the rigidity and the freeze, there was no, there wasn't a boundary, right? Because the freeze would prevent me from having one. Sure. And so I've watched that with people and I think about how that pendulum swings, right? It goes from like one extreme, it's like, very rigid boundaries when you're first learning. And then it goes from eventually when it finds that place in the middle where there can be compassionate, semi permeable boundaries that feel more choice full. And they can come they can have heart and they it's like I can be connected and I can say no, right, that differentiates Russian and I maintain this hopeful place of like, okay, I know how people heal on an individual level. And my prayer is that that's what happens on a on a cultural or global scale, right? Like things often with our individual selves, like things get really hard, all the grief, all the history that things come to the surface to be processed through move through. Before there Can we can find that Mitt the pendulum can swing to the middle. And it could take, right like decades, it may not happen in our lifetime, right? Who knows, but it's like, that's my hope is finding that middle ground, but it's yeah, it's painful. And with an with the ancestral trauma, I mean, it's really interesting that you didn't know that history growing up really, like you knew a little bit, but you didn't know the degree of it. And, and yet, what I have seen with myself, and my clients and friends, is just so much of what we are moving through, and what we carry, and we think is ours is not ours, right? It's our, it's our parents, it's our ancestors. It's like, we're still living out their fears, like in our nervous system, and we're still playing it out, right? And so, especially in America, how can you expect it's like, okay, let's just get up get over slavery versus actually processing it through everybody's nervous systems, right? Because as you said, Those men, their white men, they weren't just men that were trained to police people, right? Those were that you know, so. Like, we have a lot of collective work to do. And I really appreciate your emphasis on on the collective. And feet. And men especially we haven't really talked about this, but the importance of purpose, right, like, yes, being of service, but it's like this deeper sense of purpose in what we do and what we bring into the world and how that affects our health. It affects our mental well being it affects so many things, in purpose used to be pretty easy to find, you know, even born in a family. And your last name was Smith, because you were blacksmiths, and your daddy's daddy's daddy's, it always worked with with iron and metal unless you do too.  And you work with the carpenter and y'all build a carriage together with your hands and then you watch the owner of the land drive, get pulled away to go to some important meeting for your village and that that's what we spent the last week doing. This was a good thing before that were another hunter gatherer societies, it was even more rationally intentional. Just you know, living as nomadic animals we wake up every day when the sun gets warm enough and you have this much space in the sky before it's time to eat. And then this much space in the sky before you have to be down so the nighttime nocturnal for all these don't get yet. Lights is pretty damn purposeful. Again, like we know what we're doing and why very real. In these modern society, like the best phrase I've been able to come up with, it's like a dystopian concrete jungle that we created for ourselves, where corporations have more rights, human beings. And they're allowed to use humans as cogs in a wheel, like an assumption, an assembly line, like if you're like being used to build the first Ford's or something. And these like repetitive movements doing boring, mundane meaning shit, they don't care about sparking joy, whatever.  And then we're surprised that people are struggling with like, depression. And I'm surprised more people are crazy. Like, this is not healthy. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing that you talked about was internalized versus externalized disorders, and how things may present more for women. And obviously, they're things like sexual trauma, things get reported more even as little as they're still reported. Right. But it's, it's more externalized for men versus versus, you know, boys are allowed so little space to learn how to describe their thoughts and feelings verbally, that they act it out. Is it as easy to do is just as simple as if you don't learn to talk it out, you act out? Yeah. And you got all these working dogs running around, that don't even know how to sit, or like, you know, realize that they have to be careful when they're playing tug with a chihuahua or whatever else, you know, it's like, in like, Kalon two men are systematically blocked from having access and being able to subjectively move through spaces that allow them to be integrated human beings. So they have to repress all this crap, which, you know, second dynamically seeking gets projected outward onto the world by an attempt to control things that the adult London's right. Well, and I think about how then as mental health care providers, we then respond to That and things like ADHD, which is like, you know that there's such a high rate of that being thrown at kids when what's actually going on? And what I see is that it's a trauma response, right? There's a hyper vigilance and a tracking and distraction. And it's like, that's the result of something else that's really not being addressed in the home environment. Right. Absolutely. And so what what needs to be happening with someone's nervous system? I don't think that it's never someone's brain chemistry, you know, like that can that's a real, that's a real thing. But I was, you know, what you thought about that? Yeah, I think that sometimes it's a lot of times, it's from trauma, and you're seeing elements of dissociation and hyper vigilance together. That looks like a presentation of ADHD, especially for a little boy, who will not talk about pain, her fear openly, because it's been socially policed out of them. So they're just going to make sure that they've let you know that they need help in all these other, less desirable ways. Many ways that they couldn't figure out I'm sorry, what was the question? She said, Oh, just in terms of what you see with with ADHD as expression of acts of externalized as an externalized disorder, and where it relates to trauma versus where it's got it. So yeah, the partially trauma responses from adverse childhood experiences that never had the light of day and don't get to get worked out, as well as Have You Ever, have you ever put some high energy, Dutch shepherds in Belgian Malinois and puppies in a room together and expect them to pay attention to your agenda for 20 minutes at one time? Now, when they these are little beings that have evolved to be little fast twitch muscle Chase the Squirrel people, and you put it you're forced in the world ticky tacky spaces and make them sit in their seats and give them standardized tests? No, of course, you're wiggling, like come on. Right? So it's going against what the natural impulse and desire for their body to to express itself as Yeah, wouldn't you be started having Bertram spaces and experiential education while that stuff starts going away pretty quickly. And one of the things I feel like we're jumping around because I, I'm looking at time, and I feel like we could talk for like five hours. Like, we got to a couple of my questions. So again, the name of your book, How to human up in modern society, heal yourself and save the world by Logan Cohen, I encourage you to to not just men, but to check this book out. And in, there's a really nice section where it breaks down, especially if you're someone who has a hard time identifying what emotions are, and feeling emotions and knowing why emotions are something that are hard for you to be with or feel, but then also don't see the value in them. Because they're a waste of time, I encourage you to check out this section of the book. And you also have an exercise in there. And I'm wondering if it's something or some version of that, or if there's a different exercise that you would see value in sharing, like a five minute exercise for our listeners. Yeah, what I tend to do for like a five minute exercise. Most of the things that are not going well in people's lives are due to information that they cannot see things that are not going well, that we can't get a hold on have consciously, deliberately we're keep trying to get results from that are not going the way that we want them to go. It's not because we don't want them to go, right? It's because we don't know enough about what's happening with them. I mean, you're brave, reasonable, smart, rational individual, once you have all the information and figured out what it is, but our egocentric worldviews as human beings keep these blind spots in our sixth really, it makes it very hard to see these these elements. The most important thing that you need to consider if you have not yet is our family of origin dynamics that you grew up in. So questions that I want you to ask yourself are as if it's going to be around these emotions, what kind of emotions that you get to see growing up? Who shared those emotions. When were they share? How did you know they were being shared? Well, when are times that you saw your parents cry? What were they crying about? Did your parents have open displays of affection with each other? Not the unceremonious Connie, I'm home a hug and a kiss that means nothing. But once you get to see one, you know, like a pop and a little smack on the rear side or, or a massage on shoulders as they walked by that are unsolicited or those little moments, you know that you know what they are not creepy, like, Oh, my parents are having sex door open, that's different. What was your sibling position? If if you were the oldest? Did any of your younger siblings have any medical issues? How did your parents respond to those? Where did you go when you were scared? Or hurt as a little kid? Who would you talk to about your need to be able to think about the environment that you grew up with, with as many who weren't when where why how much as much Socratic reasoning is possible to break down is there going to be some elements that you are not consciously aware of, that you're replaying, experiencing in your family of origin out of a blind loyalty to where you came from? Because that's what humans do. We have oral traditions, we hold on to them dearly, because they kept us alive for generations after generations of humans surviving. So you do this. And we don't want to think about our caretakers, as being any less idealized versions than we think about them now, because it especially if it was more difficult, your childhood, it's going to be really tough to see some of those elements is part of what kept you sane as a little kid was idealizing parents, and having magical thinking about them. So you could at least go to sleep at night and be well intentioned for your your math test the next day. So a lot of times people, I cease to be amazed about how much clients are amazed. Or quickly, like in a first meeting, kind of go like, Hey, what are you here to do? Here are your goals. And then I usually go into some general interests. So I can like you know that I know you as a person. And I can also know how you process information won't be likely you don't like what your flow states look like. And then we go into a genogram and family of origin work. And within the first 10 or 15 minutes, I can see where these defense mechanisms form that are informing the goals that they have. So the the scripts that you get stuck in right now that you just talked about being a big part of what you want to work on here. What happened when you were telling yourself that as a little kid, the rest of the imagine that nobody wants to see this, because that's what kept you being able to see your parents as trustworthy enough to be okay, in your own skin. The more that we allow ourselves to see them as fallible, the more that we get to be fallible ourselves. Not blaming anybody by blaming anybody, because then we're gonna blame you. Let's not do that. But let's just have the information, help you figure out how the symptoms were developed in actually a context that made sense it helps you survive, and figure out how to meet your needs from here, and then work through the emotional flashbacks while we do it. It does not have to put some diagnosis on your on your mental health chart that's going to make you look crazy, but not going to force feed yet medication. Does that I couldn't even prescribe you stuff. If I tried. If I wasn't if I wanted to be I would have been a prescriber. I don't try not to ask the questions about your family of origin. This will give you 75% of the information. It wasn't really one exercise, it was like ask a ton of questions. But ya know, I think that that was a really solid list of questions that, you know, if you're listening, pause, answer the question. Take out your journal, write all that out. Play the next question and have this be something that you set aside some time and you do some self reflection. Right? And I think what you said is really important, it is really it's hard to answer these questions. And so look back because we, we are parents champions a lot of the time, you know, and we feel like we need to defend them even when we're children. And we need to protect them and their feelings. And we're quicker to blame ourselves. And so I think that to look at that whatever strategy you use is such an intelligent strategy, how brilliant you are for having come up with that particular strategy. And remembering that and remembering guess what your parents even if they subjected you to a lot of things that didn't feel good. They were also using the strategies they learned inside their families, right. There are these legacies that perpetuate Absolutely. And until we make a conscious decision to stop and to make a different choice for our Family are for our friends and our loved ones, right the people we're in relationship to. So yeah, I just want to say thank you so much for for doing the work that you're doing. And I'm glad you found social media, people, where else can people find you share your your handles and all that stuff? Sure, I got a few websites. One is Logan cowen.com. That's kind of the more recent one balanced man plan.com houses all of the self guided coaching plans that curriculum that I created for, for men to go through a essentially a toxic masculinity deconversion process without calling it that so they can actually get through it. And then from there, we'll be able to use their feelings and words enough to get to a position to actually present for help. You can find me on Instagram Tik Tok is places going under the name healing humanity 777 It's not even as specific a theological thing. The whole 777 It's seen generally in numerology is as the guardian number of like the lookout for you to type thing. So that's, that's kind of the the idea generally tried to encapsulate this concept of servant leadership as much as possible. It's funny, like, you can see some of the counter faux, like, refuse to be scared stuff, even though the title of a book, it's very, like, you know, like, type eight, like, take no shit and go for it kind of premise. But I think, you know, again, if you're listening out there, we can help you take no shit with the power of love, and avoiding doing harm with a low power we all call up together. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really glad that that you were available to do this, and I've really been enjoying what you're putting out into the world. Thank you. Thanks for joining us today, having us listeners makes this possible. In order to support the podcast I've started a Patreon where I will release exclusive content that you won't be able to find anywhere else online. I'll be offering meditations more in depth exercises that relate to specific episodes and recent behind the scenes info about the interviews and my personal life. All of that and more is available at www dot P A T R e o n.com backslash LAIDOPENPODC A S T. You can go there to learn more about how you can support our community. This has been laid open podcast with your host Charna caselle. Please join us again next week. If the show feels beneficial. we'd love if you would please rate and review it and share it with your friends so others can find us. If you have additional questions around sex and trauma. You can submit them at Charna caselle.com Follow me at late open podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate life.org Until next time, me this podcast connect you to new resources and empower you to heal yourself. Much love!

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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