Breaking Your Heart Open: Stockpiling Grief Versus Allowing it to Move Through You

This episode was recorded before the pandemic. Charna opens this episode talking about grief on the somatic level–regardless if it’s the loss of a relationship, a death, a friendship or a pet–the physical sensations of grieving are the same. Charna offers some practices that can be useful in being with loss.

Amy MacClain is a social storyteller and healer, committed to building a more resilient, equitable and accountable world. She trains, consults and designs to help others create change that lasts and is relevant in real life – raising consciousness, building community and bringing justice into unstoppable action. She does this by narrating the healing journey in song, coaching white folx to dismantle systemic oppression and offering engaging interactive experiences within which we can heal and explore. 

Charna Cassell photograph courtesy of Candace Smith.
Amy MacClain photograph courtesy of Andrea Scher.

Show Notes

This is laid open podcast and I’m your host Charna caselle. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist and master somatic coach. I’m joined by Amy McLean, a master facilitator, executive coach and curriculum developer, it feels important to acknowledge that this episode was recorded before COVID And that we have simmered in collective global grief for a year and a half now, the reality is that loss is a part of non pandemic life. Unfortunately, it is always relevant so we need to learn how to be with it

your life is about to



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so it’s been a week

and a week of a lot of loss. And, you know, whether on a physical level, whether the loss is a death, or a breakup,

or, you know, so it’s a personal or death, like somebody in your life or a political loss, something where you feel really powerless, and it’s produces grief, it has the same physical effect feels the same way in my experience. Yeah. And the the physical experience that I have of grief, it can show up in a variety of ways. But one of those ways is

feeling like I’m walking through water.

And there’s this feeling of you know, disorientation and even having, you know, when your eyes are open underwater, and you don’t have goggles and things are kind of blurry and, and, and it feels like your limbs are heavier than they would normally be. There can be this cramping in the chest. And there can be a buckling. I’ve literally I think when Romney lost, I was so relieved. I actually think it was that was the loss. and I were I was watching at a community center with a bunch of people and my legs gave out. Wow. And the only other time that’s ever happened was when I found out my godfather had died. And again, my it’s like my legs just buckled and I fell to the ground under a tree at the Strozzi Institute. And Richard gathered me up and just held me and hugged me, Richard, my teacher.

And yeah, I felt like I had no bones. One of the things that my first somatic therapist told me early on, that has stayed with me is that the as big as our container is for grief, it’s that big for joy.

And I would say pleasure. So there’s something really important, like, we can’t just heal from trauma, and have a vibrant sex life. And, you know, love relationship life, without being able to also move through a lot of grief, like unfelt grief, it’s all the same channel that that’s through the center of your body. And so you know, often it’s like, if you if you if you kink the hose for anger, or if you kink the hose for terror or grief, you’re also kinking, the hose for aliveness and pleasure. There was an earthquake here in the Bay Area in 1989. And I was a teenager, and I was driving. And

while the earthquake was happening, it was a very, very large earthquake. And many people reported seeing waves in the ground. Yeah, like big huge waves going over the ground. And since I was driving, I didn’t see that what I noticed was a power line, there was a surge of electricity through a power line, now it was fall. So all these leaves were falling around this, this sort of whoosh of electricity in the power line. And I looked down and my car was swaying left to right. Like it was really swaying as if I was turning my hands on the wheel. As if I was literally steering left, right, left, right, left, right, like I was jerking the wheel back and forth. And I might remember my mind going, why are you jerking the wheel back and forth, and then looking down at my hands and seeing they were stable? Wow.

And having this moment of total cognitive dissonance, like I knew my body was jerking that wheel back and forth, but it wasn’t and I got home and I was like, What the heck and my my stepmom was like the earthquake. Yeah.

That’s such a surreal experience, right? That there’s this

conceptual reality.

And you, you have one person you, I mean, I feel like it relates to any kind of emotional state, right? Anytime you’re in

a certain emotional state, you really believe it and feel like it is the truth. And it is the only truth and it is the way it is, and who you are.

And then that state shifts hand and the next state feels like the truth. Well, and so often our emotions come up, and they’re not just

this moment, it’s like something happens that we either see or don’t see. And it triggers a level of emotion from our past. And then we make try to make sense of it with our mind in the present moment. Like, it’s about what’s happening now. Right. But so much of what we feel is


tying that back to the topic of grief, right? So when you go through

one loss,

it, you know, a current day loss, it can bring up all the grief from previous losses, right. So often, you know, I can remember a coworker years ago, a coworker that I didn’t really know, died.


what it brought up was a previous loss in my life. So I was having all of these feelings like these really big emotions. And I think this often also happens with, like, select a celebrity, so many don’t even know who dies, that it can, it can bring up a lot of feelings about a previous loss in your own life.

And then it feels even bigger. Or that, like this week, for me, there was, you know, a couple of humans died. And then there was the death of my dog’s best gonna like one of his best buddies, and the end of a relationship, and a really sweet ending a completion with a client. And we were crying from tears of gratitude with one another, I even felt gratitude for the relief of getting to cry, because I’d been holding it together around the other losses. And so it was just like, a stockpiling and a flood of all of this sensation and these emotions that I’ve been holding together. And it was like my, I felt like my, almost like an overly filled water balloon, and I just needed to bust. And I’ve just kind of, yeah, it’s a lot of feeling when I encountered this neighbor on the street and, and his one dog, and he had, he normally has two dogs, or like little twins that would run up whenever we encounter each other, and only the one ran up. And so I knew something had happened. And I picked up the dog. And I heard this story of how the dog had basically had cancer and died within five days and holding this little dog and sat down on the sidewalk. And I just held him like little baby. And he let me in normally, he looks kind of like wide eyed and terrified when you pick them up. And he was just letting me cradle him. And I just cried. And this dog was only six years old. And and really, for people who don’t have human children, their pets can really be their children. And my neighbor looked shell shocked, was just like vacant like in stunned. I mean, it just happened a couple days before.

And I couldn’t help but think about the loss of my own pet. Right, if that happened to Toshi, how devastated I would be, there’s been a theme for me around caretaking, my mentors, the people in my life that have been like a kind of creating a path that I’m following, and Miss spiritual mothers in a sense. And so getting to the age and the development in my own work and in my own emotional age of development and taking care of them in different ways. And then having my young female client graduate and be in such a different place and do these really intimate physical practices. I do a goodbye exercise where we get to share all the things that we appreciate about one another and anything that we need to say to feel really complete before there’s an ending. And she was really, really reluctant to end and yet this phase of work is really she’s she’s at a certain level of and feeling really good and it makes sense to spend her money in a different place right now. And she just kept being like, you know, it’s not the end, you know, I’m coming back, you know, and I was just like my doors always open. And so for her to

express the amount of gratitude and to say how I’ve really functioned as a mother for her and helped her on her own path. And not having my own children is really

poignant to end I just have so much gratitude that I’ve gotten to, to function in that way for somebody you know. So it’s a super bittersweet, like we both are just expressing love for one another, and knowing this is an end.

And that we’ll miss our little rituals that we’d created that at the end of every session.

And it was a real celebration. This is just cementing for me that place of like, gratitude and sadness being the two sides of the same coin, you know, because grief is a loss, but loss means you appreciated, right loss means you loved. Right, right? Absolutely. I ended a relationship with someone who

I had

a, you know, that you sometimes you meet people, and you feel a soul knowing and a familiarity that makes no sense. It’s way beyond time, it feels like time doesn’t exist. And it’s almost inappropriate to have the feelings that you feel for them. And so we had a very intense emotional and sexual connection. And yet the timing is not right, this person is, you know, out of a 12 year relationship and not ready for something monogamous. And that’s more of where I orient and and saying goodbye. I mean, you know, it sounds superficial, but even saying goodbye to exquisite sex, like deeply connected, powerful, energetic,

multi-orgasmic, sex is also super painful, like hard cramping pain. So there’s all these different kinds of loss. And I think that there’s also one of the things, there can be the loss of something that you’ve never had. Right? So I’m thinking about work with my clients. And often

there’s a reluctance to feel into where they haven’t, like where they haven’t had care from, from a mother or father.

And to actually step into parenting themselves means to actually accept that they’re never going to get that care from their mother or father. And it’s so painful. And so it asks them to have to actually Grieve not having had that, but also simultaneously be able to be in the present moment and receive it either from me or from themselves, as we do certain work. Is there something else in the way of that, like there to me, it feels like, in my own re parenting work, I definitely had can connect to the longing, like I definitely connected that feeling of longing. And that feeling of loss is two sides of the same coin. And I feel like what gets in the way of receiving is that what I did receive was laden with trauma.

Right? So well, that that there’s a coupling and it compressing, and then it would it it makes everything when you try to even look back into a positive resourcing memory.

It’s complicated feels like Oh, everything kind of gets its like chewed up and then spit out again, because

it’s complicated. Yeah, right. It’s mixed with its interlaced and woven in with trauma, the positive.

Yeah, I was I mean, I’ll just give people a minute to adjust, I’m going to share a memory that

might be agitating for people.

So around domestic violence, this memory has been really sitting with me, I was in a retreat this weekend and

have been considering a place where where I get defensive, where my defenses just come up around simple little things, and how strong the feeling is in my body when my defenses get activated. This memory came up when I was six years old, and my mother was pregnant with my little sister.

And my mother and my stepfather used to sleep naked. He came home and she was in bed asleep. And we were in bed and he came home started yelling, and my sister and I, my older sister and I got up and went to the doorway of their room. And he had he pulled her out of the bed and threw her to the floor. And so there she was totally naked and fully pregnant. So naked and pregnant on the floor, and then he kicked her in the belly. And,

you know, I was

experiencing the pain of that memory this weekend. In my retreat. I was thinking about it and wondering about it, and then having a conversation yesterday with someone about it. going, Oh, wow. This is why I don’t sleep naked. You know, like, I don’t sleep naked. I’m uncomfortable with it. I feel vulnerable. I feel vulnerable and uncomfortable with it. And it’s just interesting to me that it’s I think, you know, we’re I’m stepping a little bit away from grief here but just to to say how all of these feelings are so intertwined. You know, they’re just a place of like

There’s a memory there that is orienting my behavior.

And there are there all these feelings that come up around it that are where my longing for openness and love is contracted around the complexity of. Yeah, what love looks like in their relationship? Absolutely. I don’t, I don’t think it’s separate from grief. Right? I think it actually, I mean, all these things, it’s yes, we could have a neat tidy outline of like, okay, we’re going to talk about loss. And this is what it looks like. But in that moment, when a child sees their mother being kicked by the person who’s supposed to love them, yeah, there’s a big loss there. There’s a loss of faith, there’s a loss of safety. There’s a contract that gets written, I’m never going to be that person who gets treated that way. And these are the kids make decisions, like I was one of the people that sexually abused me as a child was my friend’s dad. And I was wearing my favorite V neck unicorn t shirt that day, had a unicorn and rainbow on it. And after he put his hand in my shirt, I remember thinking, I can’t wear this t shirt anymore. And I was eight years old. Right? So silly, seemingly little loss. But those things, you know, it’s like the loss of a favorite t shirt. And that was coupled with this slack of this thing that happened that left me feeling unsafe. And, you know, yeah, I really get that.

There was a lot that got lost in that moment, as you know, as does happen with so many of those moments. Yeah. And so I think there’s something here that you’re saying, from the very beginning about your capacity for grief, equals your capacity for the other side of the coin, passion, pleasure, longing appreciation? Yeah. Because those things are so deeply connected. And I’m like, Yeah, my, the way I experienced it, I feel a level of longing for that kind of love and parenting, like, I’ve always felt that and yet,

also a big reticence to take any of that in.

Right? Because it, you know, yeah, what I longed for is associated with, with pain, I do this practice with clients that’s really about helping them slowly, open to being supported and feeling safe with another person. And asking them getting clear, it’s like, oh, well, you know, for one person, it might be that I’m all the way across the room from them. And for someone else, I’m holding them in my lap. Or I’m, you know, sitting shoulder to shoulder with them. And I’m, and I often am saying a phrase, something that they longed to hear that they didn’t get to hear, like, there’s nothing you need to do, you don’t have to take care of me. There’s no other place, I’d rather be, you know, I care so much about you, whatever it is, right. And when I’m doing this practice, with clients around learning how to it’s like rewiring their, their brain through their body, creating a new imprint for, for the possibility of safety and support from another person.

What often comes up is all the other moments like, they might start to feel it and it might start to feel good. And we’re looking for that place where their body goes

and relaxes and starts to open and become more receptive. And inevitably, there’s a wave of grief and loss that comes in because the memory of all the times they didn’t have it is what surfaces.

And so part of the work is redirecting your attention to the present moment to keep coming back to and what’s happening now. Can you feel me here with you now. And what’s happening is you’re in your breath, and in your chest and in your limbs and seeing if even they can let it in 2% or 5% are just starting with each repetition. Every time we do this practice, their system can open more and more.

And I’ve witnessed that with myself over the years. Right? It’s like how much more I’m willing to allow in.


you know, at 530 This morning, I woke up and I had the beginning of a migraine and

and I read an article in Modern Love in New York Times. And it was about love, right Modern Love and, and I thought about the fact that when I was in college, I had a panic attack. The first time a boy said I loved you. Right? And it was terrifying to my system. And I had the thought that I was like, Oh my God, I am now a person who wants to hear I love you and says I love you to people with ease. It’s a very different identity than I once had.

because my definition of what love was was so confused, it was more of what you were talking about earlier where it was like, Wait, if someone says, I love you, that means they’re going to abuse me in some way. Or they’re going to neglect me in some way. So this is unsafe. And I was talking to my mom, and I told her about what was happening in my life. And she reminded me, I mean, she’s still she’s in her 70s. And she said, I’ve never said I love you to anyone, but you.

Wow, yeah. And both my parents like, they still feel like, when they say I love you, I have to like, maybe squeeze some WD 40. On their words. Like it just a little, it’s a little squeaky, a little awkward. It’s like, I love

doesn’t feel natural totally. Versus it just flowing out of them really organically. So there’s a place I think where we numb, right? We numb to our our losses, because they’re too painful. And that numbs us to the possibility of our pleasure. So just

knowing that I’m curious more about how you allowed yourself this morning to transition from that place of whatever was bottled up to the sort of release that was happening. If you didn’t know there was a release happening. But when we walked into the studio today,

and she doesn’t mean an orgasm.

Grief, grief being released. How I how I, what do you ask you say more about how you allow that in yourself? And what happened? I mean, you’re talking about in the last 20 years, or this morning, I’m talking about this morning?

Because I think people would want to hear I mean, I know if I was listening, I would want to hear like, what did you do? How to do? You know, how did you allow that in yourself? How did it feel I read that article, I had that recognition around being someone who wants to feel and hear that I’m loved.


I felt my dog laying next to me, it felt the comfort of her presence. And I let myself just ride waves of grief. Right? So I cried, I stopped, I cry. There’s an experience that I only could really allow myself to do and feel okay, and safe doing through this doing the somatic work I did, right? Many years ago. And that was more, I would say grief and terror combined. I saw a movie by Allison Anders.

And it was about being gang raped. Actually, it was true. And she filmed the movie in the actual house that that happened when she was a kid.

And it was a profound movie about how on the anniversaries of trauma your body remembers. And she would find herself every year on the lawn in front of this house. And she had no memory of the original trauma.

So I barely made it through the film. And I remember the same kind of feeling of grief that I felt this morning, there was this quality of disorientation and stumbling. It felt like I was on drugs. And I remember, you know, I was about maybe like a four block walk to my home and I kind of fell down I was like stumbling down the street made it home. Luckily, no one was there. And I’d done enough somatic work to trust the amount of emotion that was running through me. And if you’ve been watching, you would have thought I was losing my mind because I was letting what my body wanted to do happen. So I crouched in my hallway, I rocked back and forth, I was shaking my arms, I was crying, I felt like I was losing my mind. And I even felt like I just wanted I just I just wanted this to stop. I just couldn’t tolerate this feeling. And it happened like every you know, maybe every 20 minutes or something, I’d have this these moments of total calm. If you’ve ever been somewhere where there’s like in a tropical place where there’s a storm and and it’s like, just like the rain is coming down. You’re totally drenched. And then the sun comes out. And then it happens again. And that’s that was the experience. And the next morning I felt really different. And I got that that it was like oh, that storm. I made it through it and it passed and I’m okay. So there was a very important imprint of trusting myself and trusting, letting grief move through me. And the same thing happened when my god mother died. I can I can remember a very similar thing where I have this observer watching myself going, oh my god, you seem insane right now.

And that brings me to today where I experienced these big welling up in waves of grief, crying about the different losses and then suddenly realize

Oh, everything feels kind of common, I feel a part I feel distant from the grief right now. And it’s part of it is I don’t have my attention on it. And if I put my attention on something else, then I can feel something else.

And so I was my attention was on something else. And I even drove past the studio house like a couple, couple blocks before realizing.

And then I was walking back, and I found myself

suddenly feeling that disoriented feeling. And I was at a light, a red light. And then it was the light was green. And I couldn’t remember how to cross the street. It was it was the weirdest and so I had, again, I have this observer being like, What are you talking about? You know, how to What do you mean? How could you not, and I was like, Are the What direction are the cars going in? Was the green for me is it for them, I felt super disoriented, I managed to make it across the street without getting hit, get into the house. And then this grief just started pouring through me and coming through in a way where I was I felt like I was on drugs, and slap happy, like

laughing and crying and making lots of dad jokes. But I really did feel like someone had, like, you know, blown some pot smoke in my ear without me noticing.

Or like, you know, put some LSD and mighty I’m hearing I’m hearing a level of both permission and trust for your own experience. And I think that where so many of us get stopped, is we start to go into that experience, and we pull it together. We just go, No, I have to pull it together, I have to pull it together. I can’t do this now. And then we just, you know, put like a lid on all of that grief. And

and so I think it’s worth noting, when you don’t

put a lid on it when you let it just express itself. There’s really serenity on the other side of it in certain places. You know, it’s like moments of profound serenity and moments of profound sadness, I think.

Yeah, you titrate natural, naturally, our bodies know how to titrate between those states. And they’ve done scientific studies, where if you let yourself you could be terrified, and I haven’t met a single person, myself included, that doesn’t have an emotion that they’re really afraid to feel. And they’re afraid that if they let themselves go fully into it, it’ll either destroy them, or the person sitting with them. It’s way too big for anyone else to heal. It’s grief. It’s anger. It’s pleasure. Right. And I’ve actually had to learn how to feel all of those things. And trust that it wasn’t too big for myself for other people. Yeah. And the pleasure is a big one. Right? Actually trusting that. Yeah, anger is a big one for me. Yeah, I feel like I cap it. Right. Like you’re like I I remember I had a partner who was wanted to explore or he was into BDSM and wanted me to beat him. And I was afraid that I would become my stepfather and I would beat the shit out of him and that I might kill him. Like I was just so scared that if I went there, I would lose all control.

I did not trust my my capacity or my container for that much expression. And you’ll all be happy to know that I trusted now.

And just for the clarity BDSM is

bondage domination submissions, you know, it could submission or sadism masochism. So

playing with consensual pleasure and pain.

Just for clarity sake. Clarity is always good.

50 Shades of clarity?

Yes, I remember being 10 and I didn’t have glasses yet. And I couldn’t see the chalkboard. And when I got those glasses and I could see clearly it made a huge difference or like there’s 50 Shades of chalk on the chalkboard.

It’s funny I was I had a song come through I channeled this music and the songs just kind of come through.

And I don’t always understand what the words mean. Or why I’m saying them that way. So one of the lines was Don’t let those teardrops turned to ice.

That’s what that’s making me think right now. Because I still am not totally sure what that means.

Sam someday my psyche will reveal it to me.

You can trust that. That’s pretty amazing. I am

last week

In a state of grief, I left my house to walk my dog. And instead of bringing my keys, I brought a spoon.

And I

got outside of my building, and realized I had a spoon in my pocket.

And then she realized there is no spoon, which means I cannot get back into my house.

There was only a spoon, what do you mean? So I can get back into my house. And later, I was with a friend who’s into dreaming and, and analyzing dreams. And he asked me what I associated with spoons. And I got, oh my God, all I wanted was to be spoon.


And I thought, that’s amazing. If that were an awaking dream, we are always in a waking dream, I believe that there’s something else I want to say about being with the unknown is a really terrifying thing for people to be with. And that’s one of the reasons that death is so scary for people that we’re always trying to control and manage the outcome of things, right, you’re like maybe if I don’t feel these feelings, I can control the outcome. Or maybe if I don’t express what I need, I can control how this person feels, or maybe if I, you know, and so on.

I don’t know what you’re talking about at all.

I was in this what I called my men’s group,

close to 10 years ago, now, it was a Qigong group. And it was a bunch of male therapists and me, led by a martial arts master, who was also a spiritual guy. And we meet on a weekly basis, I can’t remember if it was like twice a week or once a week. And we also would do these day Long’s once a month. And there were about five of us in there. And the teacher would tune into what was energetically going to support them and their evolution. So one example was one day, because I tend to be more connected upward versus grounded, he had me carry a 220 pound man on my back

the length of the beach and Alameda. And just so you know, I am five, four,

and 120 pounds. And I did it. My back did go out.

But I did. And then another example of what he would do is there was a guy and he needed to open his third chakra and connect with his personal power. And he punched him, he could control he could control how much impact he had. But he he punched him right there. And the solar plexus and the solar plexus, somebody else. He wanted to open his root chakra

my mind just went wide. And that 220 pound man laid on the ground and he with his fist in the air, and he had him sit on the fist.

Okay, it was like getting these physical experiences that were transmitting an energetic experience. I think there’s something here because I’ve been reading this very esoteric, spiritual text that talks about the essentially the power of your mind. And one of the things that it says is that your body is the learning device. And your mind is the learner so your body doesn’t learn your mind learns. Now when I read that, I was like my I’ve got lots of concerns about that statement. But the way that they were talking about it, I started to remember

what I’ve learned from other physics and biology specialists that I’ve listened to that have talked about the neuro centers in each of these parts of your body, that literally there is mind in the body because of those, those neural centers. So like down there in your root chakra, There literally is a set of neurons that are down there that are part of your mind.

Absolutely. So when you sit on that guy’s fist, your mind is down there telling you something.

Sometimes when we are

feeling things, we don’t always know that we’re feeling them. Right. So for me, often my body will give me a signal that I’m feeling an emotion faster than I can actually feel the emotion. So I will often connect and feel into my emotions and pain precedes it. Like I got a three day migraine last week. And while grieving

And that brought me into awareness of a certain thing. So I was sitting with a client.

And he was telling a story. And he wasn’t sharing anything about the emotions.

And I was sitting there and I started to feel like I could barely contain tears. Like they, they were just brimming in my eyes and my chest was starting, my heart was starting to beat in my impound really quickly, and starting to seize up.

And I sat there, and I, you know, I also had somebody in my life that was in hospice, and and had stopped eating. And so we knew was gonna die soon. And I didn’t know I’m like, Did this person just die? Am I feeling her daughter right now? What am I and I was like, what’s mine? What’s me feeling somebody’s not in the room? Or what am I actually feeling for the person across from me? Right. So I get a lot of information kinesthetically in my own body about what other people are experiencing.

And what I’ve found is that when I asked them, pointedly, what’s happening in their body, it’ll disappear in my body. So this client wasn’t talking at all about the emotions. And I asked him, first what he was feeling I specifically asked, you know, just generally, and then started to direct it and asked like, if he was feeling a particular thing in his chest. And lo and behold, what was he saying? Yes, reef? Yes, grief and anxiety, we ended up I ended up coming and sitting next to him on the couch and putting a hand on his chest supporting that spot. And he started moving through the feelings, the feelings because he could feel them. And you know, this, this happens with different clients that are numb, where sometimes they can’t even feel their own bodies unless there’s physical contact.

Right? So I literally put my hand there, and then they can feel what’s under their hand. And I used to be this way, in a certain way, right? I was like, well, actually overwhelmed by so much feeling. But then if someone put their hand on a particular part of me, I could bring myself back into my body and drop under their hand, and be like, Oh, what’s happening there as someone who’s been more numb than overstimulated for myself, like I shut a lot down to avoid the pain of the violence I grew up with. So

I think for myself,

what I’m hearing you say is one to have contact with someone else might help me know what I’m feeling in a particular moment. I know that

having conversations with other people helps me to orient myself around what’s really actually going on. But I’m wondering if even this person like

you’re saying, tracking when you’re having a sickness, or an intense feeling, I’m wondering, as a person who goes numb, is it useful for me to look

at how I tell stories even and just to bring my awareness to like, am I telling the story with no feeling? And if I were to have feeling what might that be? Right? Right. So are you reporting something? And you know, the reality is, you can even say, I was really sad, and have there be no feeling, right? Or often, people might tell a story. And it’s incredibly sad.

And they’re smiling. So there’s an incongruence. Right? Sometimes we’re just so uncomfortable with the, with the emotion that we’re in congruent, but I think that that’s a really great thing to pay attention to, is asking yourself, what’s the emotion, I really have been tracking and how defensiveness lives in my body specifically for the last week and a half.

And it’s, like, intense, it’s like, my shoulders go up. And often they live up, you know, like, I’ll bring my attention on my shoulders and then home, put them down. But it’s pretty normal for them to be raised. And sometimes I literally feel like there’s like an iron rod of energy in my back. It’s not actually my back. It’s like in the center of my being. And I’m I’m almost orienting around it. Like it’s got a lot of electricity or intensity. And that is a place you know, you were talking earlier about containing things because of a fear that if I were to uncontained them, they would harm people or harm myself. And I definitely feel like that’s a part of

you know, why I’ve contained anger for so long in my life, and how it it leaks out when I’m under stress because I can’t I literally maybe I’m under stress and I can’t contain it and so then it just leaks out and it’s totally there. And I when you’re talking about having a three day migraine, then it lets you know that you’re having emotions. I’m like sometimes for me, it’s as simple as my face is contorted. You know, and someone else might see it, like, you know, definitely for my sister. It was like I used to see her and she would have a physical reason

reaction to something before she would say anything, you know, I could see her eyes roll or her face tighten up or

so I think noticing some of those physical cues is also really important to identifying what’s happening for us. Yeah. Some other things about grief, how to know like, for me, I know that I’m grief shows up also as fatigue. Like incredible fatigue. For me, often, if I if I’m in grief, the feeling is I don’t want to get out of bed. I want to stay in bed with my dog. Like a really just I don’t want to I don’t want to go to work. I want to be with my dog. Because there’s so much comfort there.

Until that every day. Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s like grief and depression are cousins, right there in that same area of hypo arousal, so a decrease in sensation. And, and it’s I’ve actually, it’s been very confusing the past couple of weeks because I’ve been in this heightened state of turn on and

in grief.

Right. So feeling seemingly diametrically opposed states, I’ve just been feeling this this huge range all simultaneously. Like it’s intense. It’s a lot of sensation. What is it telling you? Do you have a sense, I think that one thing about it is, is there’s

an appreciation of my capacity of how vast my capacity is to still to not be totally overwhelmed and to be functioning and to be holding that range. I can remember when I had a client who came in who had been cheap, she existed either in a Hypo arousal state or a hyper aroused state. So total anxiety obsessive compulsive or depression. And like suicidality, right? She was swinging between the two. But there was a way that her system was quite numb. And she came in one day, and she was like, I don’t know how to make this. And she was like, I’m noticing the, the, the heat the sun on my skin, and I was feeling this love. And I’m feeling this gratitude. And then I was feeling really sad. And like, it was just this range. And I’m like, welcome to health. This is emotional. Like this is life, right? We feel this range. And so there’s a way that I’m in appreciation of all of it. Right? This aliveness is living right next to the grief, grief of loss of aliveness. Right? When you’re when you’re dead, you’re not alive in case all of you out there are wondering, you know, there’s this coupling, this idea of arrows and deaths, living right next to one another, right love and death. And, you know, even this idea that, that people, it’s like, in times of death, they want to talk to, you know, you do know, my talk and my speaking about something that you’re familiar with. No, you’re

right. And you’re like, I haven’t heard these mythologies, yes, anymore, that that it’s really affirming, right, that there’s a desire. And I’m thinking actually of Cheryl, straights, she wrote a memoir. It wasn’t a memoir of fiction, but it was based in some truths. There’s a scene in the book where she cheats on her husband, her mother’s dying.

And she cheats on her husband with somebody else who’s also maybe I think his wife is dying. And they’re in the hospital and they have sex. And it makes sense to me in this drive towards affirming life, and feeling yourself and wanting to feel something different than the loss and feeling connection. And if you’re so grief struck or dissociated from your own body, you you, you know, feeling somebody else’s body is the next best thing or that helping you come into your body, love and death, and other drugs, I have a weird story to share.

Some of you out there may believe in the multiverse, or in past lives. And one of the things that sometimes you meet someone and you feel this incredibly intense draw to them, right, you feel a desire and a connection and a level of comfort are turned on that feels like you’ve known each other for years. And it’s almost as I was saying earlier, and inappropriate to be feeling because it feels like it’s so, so fast and furious. So I met somebody like this.

When we were dating,

and we were laying in bed, the lights were out, and he was so tired. And so I was like, It’s okay, we you know, we don’t have to have sex. I just want to I want to kiss you all over. And I was just kind of worshiping his body and just like kissing him all over there and like, touching him softly. And then I had this moment where I switch timelines. And I was no longer with him, but it was him

And I suppose I was observing myself preparing his body. So in Japan, you prepare your loved ones bodies, and you wash them, and you pay them. And you, you dress them, and you prepare them lovingly. And like you have an intimate connection to death. And I was observing myself doing that with him. And it was this really wild experience, like I’m sitting in the dark in my bed.

And then suddenly, I was brought back to present time.

And it made sense to me that we have this on believable, intense connection, and that there’s a knowing of him from a different time in place or a different timeline. And that I have since ended things with this person. And there’s a big loss there.

Because it’s not that I just lost somebody that I went on five dates with I’m, it was a husband, right? It was a it was a deep, beloved being. And in that moment, when I was, I felt like I was preparing his body, I was filled with so much love, I actually didn’t feel grief in that moment was just like, filled with love. And I was resting my hands on him and feeling so much gratitude for that experience, and realization and, and then I lay down next to him. And he told me, he loved me. And I was like, this is really inappropriate. And yet, this is totally what I was just feeling and wasn’t speaking. And I refrain from speaking it. But he said it multiple times.

So it’s really intense. I share that because I really think that we’re walking around having these experiences that we think are related, just to this lifetime. Like some people will they label it attachment, you know, it’s like, Oh, I feel anxiously attached. I feel kind of crazy. I don’t know why I’m having this paranoid feeling of this or that. And I actually want to put a question out there that put the possibility out there that maybe we’re not crazy. Maybe we’re not all triggered from just our present day, lives, or childhoods, but that we are slipping in and out of this realm and this dimension, and we’re having, we’re being gripped by other experiences simultaneously. And those experiences are actually messengers

for us to process through, and integrate something that we didn’t have the chance to fully integrate from a past life or a different dimension.

If you want to speak about that, from a place that someone more skeptical, might hear it. You know, it makes me think of the research that’s come out in the last 10 years or so that trauma changes our DNA.

Right. And then, if you think about that scientific perspective of okay, my grandfather’s addiction, changed, his DNA structurally changed the line that is passing me all the information upon which my body grows and creates. So

there’s this, you know, like it, where my past lives might not make as much sense to me, my DNA being founded on ancestral

change totally does make sense to me. The other thing I want to say about that is, the more I learn about what does and doesn’t make sense to me, the more I’m confronted by the places that my mind has been influenced by

colonialism, or by the Western thought perspective, that everything has to be seen, to be proven.

And that just a presence that in indigenous cultures, that’s not that’s not the belief.

And often, there’s an understanding of multiple intelligences and multiple realms of life. Right? Then I feel like it’s been trained out of me. So just wanted to say that for like to acknowledge,

what I’m saying is, I don’t think, conventional wisdom, yet I’m having more and more conversations with people that I’ve had moments like this. And that I think, actually sexual connection. When you meet somebody where you have that level of intensity and you have sex quickly, it ignites and brings the karma from those other dimensions or past lives rushing forward into this timeline. And you find yourself in a level of emotional intensity that is a little crazy making. I’m in conversations with people more and more, that have had similar kinds of experiences. And I think that, that sexuality, unexplainable kind of energetic tantric experiences

are spiritual meditation type experiences can be a gateway for this to open and happen with more frequency. Cool, so

My sense is that I think there are people out there having these experiences and they’re not talking about them. So I just want to name what doesn’t get said. Because I think that people don’t always have someone to talk to or make sense of

these kinds of experiences.

And yet, there are words in different languages that encompass that experience. You know, I’m thinking of the word Basharat. Right, like that meant to be, beloved, a sort of Destiny oriented word. It’s a good word. Yeah. So people, people deal with grief in different ways.


one way, can look like paralysis and inability to be productive, or get out of bed can look more like depression. And when I went through some deaths in my life a couple years ago, I, you know, I, I used to, historically been able to write my way through grief. And it was a big resource for me. And I hit kind of a saturation point with grief that I couldn’t even write that even writing overwhelm me and brought me too much into the feeling and the memory, of loss. And yet, so So after having this this day, this epic last day, my desire is to is to just be super productive, right? So one of my coping skills is if I can just work, like put my attention on my work, then that’s my self medication, great, somebody else smokes pot, I might eat a carton of frozen yogurt, in addition to being highly productive, but that there are these different ways that we regulate ourselves that are really intelligent. And I say, like, you know, give yourself that you don’t have to stop doing what you do. Just do it with awareness.

And, and the other thing, that’s a newer practice for me, that’s developed over the years versus isolating and grief, because grief can really pull people into a hole. And with blinders, where they, it’s hard to reach out and talk to people and ask for support is, is actually calling people and letting them know, I just took my spoon for a walk.

You know, just like

communicating the loss that I’m experiencing. And even if the person doesn’t answer, and they don’t get back to you until that wave has passed, you remember that you’re connected? Because inside of loss, there’s a feeling of disconnection. So there’s no right way to process your grief.

Or to be with it. But I do encourage you to ask yourself, it’s like, what are three ways that I could take care of myself right now? For one person, it’s a hot bath, another person, it’s going for a walk, you know, smelling the earth and the trees and rosemary. Somebody else that’s baking cookies. Somebody else is putting their body against someone like for me, physical contact is super soothing. For someone else, they really don’t want that.

Sometimes listening to music is helpful for me. Yes, so evocative. Oh, my God, I, a friend shared this 10 minute poem that he’d written, and there’s music, there’s this cello music playing in the background. And I was listening to it and my eyes were just like faucets, and just this tears were just pouring through and I, there was a deep resonance music is a huge one for people. And also singing bowls. If you’re into Tibetan singing bowls, the resonance of those can actually shift your, your state and your feeling state and can help as much as you know, traditional, lyrical music, sometimes thinking of the good things about something I’ve lost, helped me feel the loss more. Right? Does that make sense? Like I just think about if someone passes, I want to think about what are some of the things I really loved about them? That’s right, because that will give me access to feeling loss. Right. So there’s this this balancing act of have some, some people need to learn how to regulate to manage their, the amount of feeling they’re feeling, and some people need to feel more. And so for one person, it might be, I’m going to stop thinking about what I’ve, what I’ve lost. And I’m actually going to focus my attention on what is here. What I have. Yeah, while somebody else is like, oh, I need to make contact with that. I’m gonna watch Grey’s Anatomy and cry my ass off. Because I can’t cry for myself. Yeah.

And so it’s knowing what your system needs in the moment and it’s going to change.

I think for me, as someone who has suffered from depression, it’s important for me to remember that it’s okay to let something else

to external like, it’s okay for me to watch Grey’s Anatomy and, and be like, Okay, I can cry in someone else’s story and then not get numbed

by the anesthetic of someone else’s story as well. Because like, for me, I’ll watch Grey’s Anatomy and I’ll cry about it, but then I’ll watch 12

which is not healthy for me, and is more of a numbing out than tuning in, right just to pay attention to what is what my system is doing when it’s happening while it’s happening, right. For me, writing is also a way to connect in and that that three day migraine only only shifted once I sat and took the time to synthesize all the things I was feeling about, and write about these losses and write about the process of, of death, dying grief,

breakup, but yeah, the bigger gift inside of it. One of the things that it as a side note that I was really getting, from the past couple weeks, the really the source of the headache, what I got to was about self doubt. And at the very center, and there was a dissonance, and there was a dying that was happening inside me. So there’s this, the death around me is a reflection of what’s actually happening internally, that there’s an old belief for me around, I’m not enough.

And I was feeling that I was feeling this, this, this belief come up that I’m not giving enough or doing enough for the mentors in my life. And I wasn’t supporting them enough, like supporting this mentor and her her mom enough. Even though all the words around me, the people around me, were saying something different. They’re like, Oh, my God, we’re so grateful, you’ve been doing such an amazing job you’ve been giving so much. And there was some part of me that couldn’t take that in. Because it was dissonant with my belief.

There’s some part of me that was like attached, because it gave me some kind of I think power to believe, well, if I could just do more, then I might be able to make a different and better for everybody. And that there’s a powerlessness and accepting, I’m doing all that I can.

And I’m doing enough. And there’s still suffering in the world. There’s I’m suffering, they’re suffering.

And I was getting that kind of praise from this man, I was seeing who I felt like was really praising not only my physical beauty, but my heart and who I am in the world. And then I was being praised by a colleague who wants to collaborate with me and acknowledging the work that I’m doing in the world. And he came out of left field, like I’d never met this person before. And he’s emailing me all these beautiful things.

And then I got this headache, right, that wouldn’t go away. And it wasn’t until I synthesized all of that and realized, oh, this, it’s there’s a disintegration of an old belief. And I need to really see that and step into the knowing ness and the truth of who I am and what I’m offering in the world. And that being enough. And so

there’s something about I think what Jung would call synchronicity, right, so we have an internal experience, and that it might be manifest in a physical symbol outside of us.


kind of looking for those patterns. And those ways that life, those ways that our internal state is mirrored by our external state, something out there is showing you what’s going on.

And you just got to pay attention. Yeah, I’ve had a number of synchronous experiences in the last couple of weeks where it’s like, I’ll be

seemingly randomly flicking around on Facebook, and all of a sudden, something will come up and I’ll listen to it. And it was exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. Or I opened my closet and there was this book of medicine cards, these animal spirit, tarot cards. And I was like, I haven’t looked at those cards in years. And I saw one and that was it was like, no, no, you have to do this right now. And I pulled it it was exactly a description of where my state is right now are being led to this text that I’ve been working with. It’s all happening through these sorts of synchronicities. And I think, you know, one other thing that you were talking about is acceptance, you know, as listening to this talk by rom das and I don’t really follow rom Das, I don’t seek out teachings by rom Das, but it was there. And I clicked on it, and it was really interesting inquiry about acceptance.

And he said, you know, he said, What if instead of working on loving ourselves, we just worked on accepting ourselves. Yep. You know, like, this is what it is, you know, whether or not it’s enough is irrelevant.

Because it is what it is.

In a sense, you know, yeah, I years ago had the experience and I think you know, how it relates to acceptance versus loving ourselves, right? Is there as a byproduct that happens like for me in accepting myself and my needs in each moment, like I’m hungry, or I’m not hungry, or I want to do that, or I don’t want to do that really getting connected to those, each of those moments and having and listening and paying attention, not just hearing it, but taking action around it.

The byproduct was self compassion, aka self.

Pity, right, do and, and, you know, I don’t think that I don’t actually think you can. It’s challenging to just be like, I’m gonna love myself, I get manicures. That means I love myself. No, I mean, you know, there’s certain steps we can take to, to attend to ourselves. And these little ways, I think, are really sweet. But I think it’s a lot to expect of yourself to go from self loathing, or dismissing your emotions and thinking, Okay, I’m going to love myself, like, force yourself into it, but just, it’s these small measured things, then one day you wake up, and you’re like, Oh, I actually respect myself enough to listen to my own boundaries, and do what feels good. Yeah, just to keep putting this in the context of how we’ve been conditioned, you know, like, there’s so much conditioning in the United States to not to not speak, how you feel, and to not put it on someone else, that you’re upset, you know, and to not be selfish, and to not boast or brag, you know, and saying the things you love about yourself might be like, Well, I wouldn’t want to brag about that. I feel totally uncomfortable. Nobody ever says anything good about themselves, unless they’re an asshole, you know?

It’s like, how do we break down some of that conditioning, and not just that conditioning of sort of Protestant American shame, you know, like, be be a good Protestant and keep it all inside, and don’t put it on anyone else. But also, also, you know, the systemic conditioning of where I may have internalized some oppression that says, I’m not lovable, because of my rank, as a,

you know, as a woman, or as a person of color, or as a person with a disability are these places where we’re conditioned to see ourselves as not lovable for those reasons. So just

be noticing that there are many forces against us, when we want to start that quest of what do I love about myself in earnest and being able to acknowledge that those are forces that are not chosen by us? Those are forces we were raised within? They’re not necessarily forces that have right or truth on their side?

Absolutely. And that that’s that piece coming back to our conversation earlier around? perspective, right? If you’re if you are at you know, Bruce Lipton talks about the first seven years of your life, you’re in a hypnotic state, you’re in a hypnotic trance, and that all the belief systems of your family you absorb, you may not even be conscious of it. But you’re they’re running in the background. They’re unconsciously running you running the show, you don’t even see them. You don’t question them? Because they feel like truth.

So, yeah, that’s again, you know, you’re inheriting the belief that you’re not good enough for as some kind of Protestant work ethic, I have a client who even around food, right, it really shows up around food, but it’s like, if she doesn’t work this hard, She doesn’t deserve to eat well, so that that’s it can even it shows up really extremely there. And the that she has the awareness of it, but the belief is so gripping it runs her. And it’s like, there’s like a panic around giving herself an appropriate amount of food. That’s something that, you know, we take for granted, if you’re able to eat and enjoy your what your meal is. Yeah, but but our, you know, trauma can show up in these in all these ways that it’s like even knowing if you have to go to the bathroom or not, right, knowing if you’re hungry or not being in your body enough to feel any of that is you wouldn’t think it’s a privilege. Right? Or you take it for granted.

Yeah. And so it’s like, being able to eat when you want to eat that can be a micro success. Yeah. I have a friend whose daughter is 16 and anorexic. And, you know, they’re working with it. They’re in therapy, and they’re going to the hospital. They’re in groups processing it. And one of the things that they realized was that there’s a social construct, that you as a woman don’t eat more than the person eating the least.

And I thought to myself, you know, I don’t feel like I grew up

thought as a social construct, you know, if it wasn’t part of the water I grew up in, I could totally see where it could be a conditioning for a young woman who’s on a lot of social media or not even social media who’s just like in this pretty old pretty Yeah, belief and piece of conditioning. I also did not grew up with that. And it in his Jewish family was more like I got chastised by my grandpa for not eating, it’s like your little frog. And you grow up in your boiling pot of water. Because

it’s the water.

I know what you’re talking about, but that made no sense.

Okay, so you know that story of the frog in the pot of water. And when you gently turn the water on and you raise the heat incrementally, the frog is not going to notice until he boils to death. Versus if you throw a pot, if you throw a frog in a pot of already boiling water, they’re gonna jump out they’re gonna be like this shirts boiling, get out of here, you know? Or if you throw a pot, frog

jump and go fuck off. Get a frog high with your pot. Or if you get high with the frog venom. Oh, well, that’s a whole nother

story, right? We’re gonna talk about death. Yeah, oh, my goodness.

Leaping frog.

No, but you know, we grow up in the water that we’re raised in, right, we grow up in the mitos. And I think it’s important to recognize that our pains, our grief, our our inability or ability to handle it is not just a product of our own personal fluency. And we’re a product of, of our own capacities, and our family capacities and our community capacities and our national capacities, and our global capacities, all of these capacities form us. Absolutely.

And we may not have control over

the globe,

the world, you know, the world, or even our families, but we do have control and choice over ourselves. And it can feel really defeating and like it’s out of your control. And so you just pick one thing, one new thing to practice one new way to interrupt a habitual way of thinking or being

and you just slowly chip away. It’s funny how that could be anything. Like for me, this over part of this, that I’ve been working with my defensiveness came from me, looking at how I drive. And I do that frequently, you know, multiple times every day. And so there’s a place of like sitting in my car and noticing how I’m driving, and noticing where I feel defensive, you know, if I feel like someone else is not driving well, or if someone cuts me off, or generally I have, I’m looking at my own sense of entitlement and defensiveness inside the car. So I’m using it as a way to practice unwinding from entitlement. You know, like, I feel like I own the road, I feel like I can I drive with a lot of ease, I drive like a bat out of hell sometimes, you know, and I feel a lot of comfort with that. And I don’t necessarily pay attention to my impact. So I went looking at my driving from this one perspective to try and unwind from some entitlement. And I ended up having a metaphor for how often My body feels reactive or defensive, and being able to calm myself and operate from an intention to drive with care and presence and building my ability to be present. Just by being in the car, which felt seemingly unrelated to me, when I started taking a look at that, right. I’ve actually given that as a homework assignment to clients that there’s you go into a hyper aroused state, and I’ll track this inside myself as well. When I drive fast. It’s like, more alert, awake, tracking everything. And that’s, that’s what I had to do in my family. Right. So there’s a habit there. And that slowing down, it’s like, Oh, what is it like if you’re used to existing and hyper arousal, or being overly stimulated, practicing

driving slowly, is a retraining. It’s like, oh, can I tolerate this level of just like, hey, everything’s fine. Gonna get there when I get there. Yeah, and then how many areas in your life will that practice start to ripple out even though they seem totally unrelated? Absolutely. Like me hanging out with my son is not related at all to my driving, except it is now because he has his permit, but that’s another story. But you know, like, it’s, they’re not related, but how I’m tracking myself in my car just ripples out. Yeah. Yeah. I have a new practice. I am telepathically training my dog. So I’m training my dog without gestures and without words, I’m using images. So I see a color and a picture

My dog doing an act like playing dead dog giving me a high five waving at me sitting in stopping grounding, all of those things.

And one of the things that I’m getting from that practice, besides being super impressed with my clever dog is realizing that if I have a thought that I want her to do something, but I’m thinking about seven other things at the same time, I’m like, this is where I need to be next. Did I feed her whatever it is that I’m thinking about? I am sending a lot of mixed messages. My intention is unclear. My mind is busy.

So it is an absolute heart brain coherence practice to train my dog in this way. So I ground, I clear my mind. I get focused with her. She’s a mate, she can hold eye contact for quite a while. And, and I visualized the thing that I want her to do.

And then she does it. It’s pretty awesome.

Right? Yeah. How many times are we just having that singular focus, right? We’re juggling life. Yeah, I’m sitting with a client totally present. And then there are moments where I think about cookies, or moments or think about the next client or Mommy, you know, they’re all these things that were simultaneously holding.

So it’s a really beautiful practice to be in. As I was saying earlier, whether the loss is a debt, a breakup, or even grieving the absence of consistent care as a child and finally accepting you’ll never have the parent you’ve been waiting for. It can feel the same way in your body. There’s a similar process of needing time to feel, express and release, what was and what never got to be. You may need to dampen the anxious grief or may want to wake up the numbness you feel and connect to the feelings underneath it. Don’t force yourself to feel everything at once. Grief can be a tidal wave or be dammed up. Your pace is different than your friends pace. Don’t rush it.

Many people drink or use different drugs to manage big losses. That impulse makes sense. It’s hard to feel if you do this, try not to shame yourself. A harm reduction approach is to name what you’re doing as you do it. Be mindful. I’m choosing to cut myself right now. Or I’m choosing to drink this bourbon.

What could you swap out that has a gentler impact? If you want to try something else, I encourage you to ask yourself what comforts me? Is it cooking, gardening spending time filling your legs as you walk fuzzy socks cuddling with your dog, or your lover, ice cream, being buried under a huge pile of blankets listening to certain music that helps you cry or punching a heavy bag, having a bestie sit back to back with you so you feel someone is still here supporting you. Do more of this clear away anything that doesn’t have to happen now. Create space for what you’re feeling.

So take out a piece of paper and let yourself write without lifting your pen.

Remember to breathe, and keep moving your pen. Write a letter that you never need to share with anyone though others who lost this person or knew this person may feel it’s a gift if you do decide to share it.

I wrote a letter to my close friend who died and actually ended up publishing it.

Write about all the things you loved about this person. The things that challenged you what you learned what you wished you’d done differently, what you apologize for, what you forgive them for. Know that part of grieving a loss and feeling powerless can show up as regret. If you could just go back in time and do this thing differently. Maybe you could have prevented the death, the loss or the breakup. You could have seen them one more time know that it’s not your fault.

The move here is to recognize that the regret makes sense. You’d rather feel regretful than powerless because it’s so overwhelming. Powerlessness feels like death and we’re scared of dying.

We all die.

Breathe into that

we all die.

It’s okay to be scared.

You’re not alone.

Since recording this episode, two loving wise friends of mine have died.

I take solace in creating an altar for them and continuing to speak to them when I need guidance. For most of this year, I spoke multiple times a day to my friend Jada who passed in January.

I kept a candle burning for her put out photos of her different kinds of cake flowers from my garden and objects that I associate with her

And recently another friend Richard died. In both cases community gathered to create epic altars to honor them. These can be temporary or permanent fixtures in your home. This episode is dedicated to the ever present memory of Jada Delaney and Richard Wright.

This has been laid open with Charna cosell and Amy Maclean.

I know this was kind of a heavy episode and I hope it helped you to learn more about grief. You can find additional resources about grief and loss at layup and podcast.com If you have questions on this topic or anything else we’ve touched on in this or other episodes, you can reach me at laid open podcast@gmail.com Please send them as voice memos or emails. You can follow me at laid open podcast on Instagram and Facebook and read more about my work at passionate life.org Until next time, take good care and hold those you love clothes.

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© 2022 By Charna Cassell, LMFT. Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. MFC 51238.

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