Holy Erotica and Shaking off Shame After Religion

Welcome to laid open. Today we’re talking about Holy erotica and overcoming religious sexual shame with my guest filmmaker Nathan Navarro. Nathan has been a docu series editor and filmmaker in LA for almost 20 years. He also grew up evangelical Christian and his healing journey included filming erotic shorts. Many of us carry around trauma that came from religious or conservative communities or parents. And today we’re going to begin unpacking some of that.

Can you tell our listeners what you mean by Holy erotica? Because there’s some might be some people out there picturing people dressed as Jesus getting doing erotic things with crucifixes and things like that. So maybe you could illuminate and educate us?

Yes. Okay. So, when I grew up in the church, the term holy to me how it was described was to be set apart. And when when I was married, I was in a sexless marriage or a long time. And even though I was hot against it, that that born was sinful. I went to it to learn and educate myself, I wanted to find out how I could I could be of service to my wife how to have sex, really, because I wasn’t active before she and I didn’t have sex, we’re married. And I, I was really looking for content that  that really brought me to a higher place. And I had the hardest time finding it.

So not long until after my marriage, I decided to confront my fears by shooting an erotic short, I didn’t intend to shoot an erotic short, I thought I was just shooting an interview. And the subjects who were involved, I guess, they just felt really comfortable. And, and then intimacy happened. It wasn’t paid for. It wasn’t asked it was, it felt like it was Providence, like it was a gift. And what happened in front of me was so to me, it was experiencing God. It was it gave me something that I didn’t experience my marriage. It gave me something that I didn’t even experience in church, but I knew it was. I knew it was God. And the only way I could express that was to edit it, as if I was worshiping. I just gave it my all. And the end product became something that I didn’t even know what to call it was just, you know, is this porn? Is this an art film? I don’t know. So I started showing it around and the responses from it have been unexpected. They refer to it as it being healing as educational as life affirming. And, you know, what we say in the church is, you know, you know, you know, you know whether a vine is healthy, either fruit that it bears, right. And the fruit that resulted from this film was good fruit. And I just did not know what else to call it. So, I started using the term holy erotica, because it was simply it was set apart from what I normally saw as porn. That’s the term I use today. Thank you. And are you still in the church I was employed was invited to a lot of churches, you know, I don’t have a Master’s of divinity. I’m not a seminary graduate. But in youth ministry, sometimes a lot of these things become FastTrack. You know, you can become a worship leader, just having these credits. All of a sudden, you’re this known face in Christian land, and in some churches embrace you as a worship leader, even though you don’t have a Masters of divinity. I was like that regards to speaking with teenagers, I am a self taught to the theologian. I did that in college during homeschool and and so once I got married, though, I was very involved in the church with helping them start a married couples group, marry couples ministry at our church, but I was never paid by them. I was only paid as a church camp pastor and I was traveling around and then sometimes I was paid by churches. Sometimes I was paid by schools even but not on staff at a church, not clergy.

I’m curious. So you were you waited until marriage? The intention was you’re gonna have sex with your wife once you’re married and and it sounds like that I don’t know if that ever actually got to happen or if whatever dynamic was happening in the relationship if there was trauma that interfered with that ever occurring. So that’s one, one question. The second part of the question is, if you’ve ever shared your holy erotica with young people, given what you, you know, given what you are preaching or teaching before, and when you look back at your teenage self, and you think, wow, what how did celibacy culture, hinder? or enhance who knows your sexuality and your sexual self expression? So I know there’s a bunch of questions in there feel free to start with any of them.

Yeah. And as I go through this, what what could even help me is understanding, you know, if there are, if there are things that you’ve noticed in the cases that you’ve worked with, if you see some similar things, you know, help me see why I’m also because I’m just describing this from within the frame.

Sure, sure.

But yeah, so for me, my ex wife and I, we waited to have sex before marriage. And that turned out to be the hottest, sexiest thing for us when we were dating. She loved it, the fact that there was this line, I would not cross, we started to flirt with that line. And I thought that we were going to have the best sex ever, because things were just so hot. As soon as we got married, that’s when everything changed. Once the reality set in, you know, after lots of conversations with her how she described it to me, was once that reality set in, like an anxiety set, and also, because I was so committed to not have sex before marriage. And on our honeymoon night, she locked herself into the bathroom, for about two to three hours, I don’t remember how long it was, it just was forever. And I was so confused. I was so confused what was going on. And by the first two months, for sure, you know, we knew that, well, I knew that we needed to see someone professionally. And for her, it took a longer time it her family, the way her family history has handled it was to just not talk about these things. And so I really couldn’t move faster what we as a couple can move faster than then we as a couple could manage. So that time was very difficult. There was a lot of confusion, there’s a lot of anger towards, towards God, there’s a lot of anger towards the upbringing, because we were we were taught that we were promised something. In theory culture, you were told that you do these things, and then you’re promised a fruitful sex life in your marriage. And that even if you were raped, or if you were molested, Jesus makes it all go, you know, obeying God’s commands makes it all go away. It was that simple. That’s how it was taught. And so once we came across, you know, this new sexual landscape for us, like, all of a sudden, there was this gap between us, one of the first things we did was we went to our church elders to talk about it. And the only language that we got back and returned from our church elders was, well, this is God’s command. This is this is what you do. This is your duty, right? Here’s some books to read, I’ve been joined a prayer group, like maybe you can be in relationship with some of our church counselors, and then they would just tell us the same things, but just, you know, in the comfort of their living room, once a week or X number of months. So the, the knowledge did not, there was not more knowledge, it was just the same things that we were told before. And with the higher expectation, whenever I came to my bride with the ASHA, hit, sing it like this, but asking for sex, or demanding for sex, I would bring in a whole lot of theological guilt with it, oh, boy. And that took her to deeper, deeper levels of depression, of self hatred. And those are those are levels that only she could describe. I just know that I contributed to that.

Repeatedly this as much as our church elders did. And we were in this vacuum of religious shame in our marriage. Right?

Oh, gosh, when you were describing that my heart really hurt for both of you. Okay, so how old were you when you started dating?

Yes, we started dating. I think I was well, I met her. When I was about 20 to 23. She was around 25-26. We’re friends for two years, and then we dated for two years.

And so when you were describing how hot it was, before you got married, you know, when we think of sex often like saving yourself for marriage, sex can often be p IV, like penis and vagina sex. And I’m curious how much exploration the two of you engaged in like, what did she feel safe doing before? What did you feel safe doing and still holding that line? Was it only p IV that crossed the line?

We Yes, intercourse would be crossing the line. You know, at one point were both naked in bed and she was really trying to pull me into her. And I was just resisting. And that stuff was it’s so sexy.

Right. And so all the build up up to that we let happen, but, but

there was a lot of guilt with it too. Because I was involved in church leadership. I was already a church camp Pastor, I was representing the Southern Baptist Convention, I was telling people don’t have sex before marriage, and yet here I was flirting with the line. So there was some confusion there. And sometimes that sometimes those boundaries made it sexier. Sure, I have to admit, I mean, we, at one point, you know, we were, she visited me up, she visited me at the camp, we took a little hike, at some sleeping bags out underneath the stars and like, Ooh, what, what’s the church camp pastor doing? Ooh, right. Like, all that stuff was part of the fun, right? But so there was some play.

Right? So I mean, even in non religious dynamics, things that are taboo, there’s, there’s a reason why things that are taboo or forbidden, are sexy, right? I can remember watching a show called The Thorn Birds every year when I was a kid, this would come on TV, and it was a love story between a priest and you know, he was the beloved family priest. And there was this little girl Richard Chamberlain was, the guy was the priest. And the little girl grows up and becomes this woman. And then they they have this forbidden love. Right? And I remember thinking it was a pretty darn sexy miniseries.

Yes. Can you see this?

My? My ex wives, one of her favorite books?

Oh, sorry.

No, it’s okay. It’s okay. Maybe that’s what kept things hot before we were married. But I haven’t seen the movie. I have seen I have seen this champion guy. He is a good looking guy. But I haven’t seen the movie.

So yeah, I mean, playing with polarity playing with taboo, all of these things do create tension and heat in, in relationships. And, you know, restriction, but what they also do is they create safety. And so as you were telling the story about your wife, and how hot it was, and there was, it’s like, she knew that you were going to hold this line and help her and not cross it. Then it gave her certain perhaps a certain kind of freedom to be more self expressed and to allow the desire to be there. But as soon as it was like, Okay, here’s the pressure here, the expectations, then there’s, you know, the flood of all these feelings, and perhaps, I mean, I don’t know what your wife’s history is, but it sounds like there’s, I mean, here’s the thing is, is in my experience, religion can live in the body like sexual trauma, right? There doesn’t have to be quote unquote, child sexual abuse or a previous assault, but that the shame and the restriction and the squeezing down on on your own lifeforce and your own impulses can live in the body like sexual trauma.

Yeah, I agree. I agree completely.  I recently had a chance to have a conversation with with a colleague. Her name is Dr. Tina Shermer. Sellars, and she wrote this book called Sex garden in the conservative church. And in that book, she disclosed how she stumbled upon this purity culture, which I’m part of it she was not part of it. She was just approaching it as a psychologist when she told us a story of how she came across these cases, that all had the signs of being sexually traumatized. Yet. The typical people did not have like a typical rape history or anything like that the only common factor was that they were all churched that completely, you know, it affirms what you’re saying there. I mean, you’re hitting it right on the head. There is a sexual trauma with how American religion has taught us sexuality with all the guilt and the shame heaped upon it with God behind it too, right? I mean, that’s, uh, gosh, it’s this really intense.

It’s, it’s actually kind of terrifying. I mean, if I put myself in the shoes of somebody who really believes that, you know, I could potentially risk being in heaven or being with my family or being I don’t you know, I’m not I wasn’t raised with religion. So I don’t know necessarily the right way to talk about this, the amount of pressure like the stakes would be so freaking high. That’s so intense, you know, and that you have these natural impulses and desires that move through your system and that you’re, you’re constantly we already I feel like each of us starting at a very young age, starts creating stories of why we’re bad for different reasons without any religion and then you take something as strong and powerful as religion and put it on top of it. And I just imagine how squeezed down people’s systems get.

Can I ask you a question? This is how this totally you can absolutely you can ask me anything.

What’s it like to for you to have, I guess, learned or discovered sexuality without this character of judgment God behind you?

Yeah, I think that’s a great question. So I grew up in a setting in, you know, hippie culture. So kind of the antithesis, my really in a lot of inappropriate stuff going on one of my stepdads, or one of the men that my mom lived with, my mom never got married. So this idea of sex only existing in marriage is a foreign thing, right? I never had the pressure to get married. And so my mom and dad didn’t marry each other or anyone else. So my mom was living with somebody. And when I was, you know, four years old living in Marin, he would greet a new friend who’s being dropped off for a playdate naked.

Which make it so you know, wow, like, I think not like that was the regular but things like I remember being really uncomfortable, how he’s like talking to my new four year old friend, and he’s standing there balls out. He’d been sunbathing on the roof. That’s just that’s just one example. But you asked me like, how is it to be raised? So for me, I actually I was raised with there was There was sexual trauma, there were sexual inappropriateness, there was a real lack of boundaries. And I think I craved I didn’t I wasn’t raised with religion, but you know, like, around third grade or something, I remember being like, Mom, we have to get home to light the candles. So I was my mom was Jewish, we had a menorah. But I’d gone to Hebrew school for you know, half a year in second grade in San Francisco. And my mom would kind of laugh, you know, like I was mocked for, for wanting that kind of ritual. But what I think I was really craving was structure and boundaries. There was just an absence of that. I think that the this is going off roading a little bit, but I, you know, I think that there was a, if you want to think of it as past lives, or other timelines, remembering of that, that connection to God remembering that connection to ritual, and structure and discipline. And in this lifetime, I have had to create a I have a lot of internal structure and a lot of internal drive and discipline and have created my own spiritual path that has been really essential for me in healing in a variety of ways.

And I was just gonna ask, and sexuality was a part of that discipline. So what’s interesting right now actually, there’s a woman, Olivia, who has an Instagram and website and

I don’t know if she has a full on podcast, it’s called self cervix.

Right? I highly recommend any listeners out there to check her out. I think she’s doing really good work. And what her her her love and it’s upon so you know, you gotta love that. But she’s very much introducing people to a relationship to their cervix and and really owning their relationship to their sexuality into their bodies through that process. So in reflexology, the cervix, in the in the in the genitals, the reflexology. Reflexology of the genitals, the cervix is the Pineal Gland. correlates with the pineal gland, the pineal gland, right is the Center for a lot of spiritual awakening and visioning. And like, you know, releases DMT. So, so this, the thing is, is you can by stimulating the cervix, release DMT and go into these other dimensional states, whether it’s sex with yourself or others. That’s amazing. Yeah. So I know it’s very exciting. So actually, last year, when I was working on my book, I know this is a total like, off roading dimensions. Here we go. So So last year, when I was working on my book, I was writing all this stuff around, swimming through glass six steps to sexual freedom is the book that I’m working on. And I was writing about trauma and how it impacts the brain. And talking about I was reading about the vagus nerve. And the thing is, is if you know if our brains can be shaped negatively by trauma,

I also was thinking like how and if the vagus nerve plays a part in regulation, it’s like thinking, Oh, well, how can it play a part in the opposite direction? And so I started researching and looking for information on the connection between the vagus nerve and orgasm and I couldn’t find anything besides one article about a woman who was I think, a quadriplegic, she was paralyzed, and she was still able to have orgasm, and it was connected to the vagus nerve.

And so I got very excited about it, stuck it in the background, then started was on Instagram and found this stuff around. Oh, no, I was I was reached. I started then read

Searching at one point cervical orgasm different kinds of orgasm. And there’s very little known about the cervix out there. Right. So that’s a whole other subject. But what this woman started talking about was that there’s, um, so with the with the vagina with the clitoris with the G spot, there’s the pelvic nerves, right? There’s one nerve bundle kind of connected, but then to the cervix, there are three, and one of them being the vagus nerve.

And so I got really curious, she has these online classes, I’m always looking for resources for clients and thought, oh, I want to know what how she approaches things. And so one of the things when she mentioned the pineal gland, I got very excited because one of my meditation teachers, Dr. Joe Dispenza, he will we will do like four hour meditations focused on the pineal gland. And I have the experience of whole body orgasm during meditation.

So this is, this does not require any contact, no contact, no. So in her course, each day, there’s a daily meditation and their meditations on the cervix and in the bowl of the pelvis, and doing these meditations. And it’s like, bringing you through the left side, bringing through all the organs internally, and I can, it’s amazing, it feels like like a highlighter, like I can literally with my, with my attention, highlight the different parts of my sex organs. And they’re, they’re invigorated. And I pretty much at this point live in a constant state of turn on, but through meditation can in it can increase in literally, with just intention, like if someone was touching a certain part of your body, you feel it more, I do that I can do that with my mind. So that was not what I was taught as a child. But through my own, through my own spiritual practice, I have come to see the connection between spiritual practice and sexuality. It’s a very long answer to your question. No, no, that’s, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing, because I think what we’re, what I’m hearing in this is like, when you go at sexuality, without a lot of disciplinary structure, you can get to a certain you can get to a certain point. And then with it, you can get to another, this a completely different plane in relationship with, with your body, the universe, all things energy is all this, from my background, starting off with too much structure also had a limitation. And beyond that structure, there’s this hybrid, what you’re doing now, that allows this greater access that I think a lot of people in Christian land are still trying to articulate. It’s like this is a dangerous place to, to try to describe this is where we don’t know whether to call that sin or whether they call that Satan or whether they call that sensuality, we just don’t know, we just know that discipline down here really well. So that’s remarkable what, what, how that discipline as leveled up your understanding of sexuality and how you can express in your body that, wow, well, while I love what you just said, which is, it’s like this, this balance between how discipline can be used for good or bad or evil, right? So that when it’s too restrictive, it squeezes something off. But when it brings you repeatedly to something, and it’s a practice, it enhances something. And so I mean, I think there are so many people running around willy nilly, I was watching some goofy dating, reality show. And they were playing this competitive game and asking each other it was like the teams were asked questions about sex, and then they had to answer it. One of the questions was about female orgasm. And it’s like, how long does the typical female orgasm last? And the answer was 30 seconds. And these people were like, their minds were blown that a female orgasm could last that long. They thought it was like five seconds. And I was like, oh, I want to reach into the screen and tell you something else. Tell you what’s possible, you know, and that our sexuality is so much, you know, we go like, Oh, this is what it’s supposed to be. And then that’s what we accept. Right? Just like even a sense of reality. We’re like, Okay, this is consensual reality. Okay, doo doo doo. This is what we’re going to how we’re going to live our lives. Yeah. And if I could add something, yeah, to that, like this whole idea of even an orgasm lasting so long or even having an orgasm without genital stimulation, no contact. When I did my erotic short, I first did my whole erotica, that sent me on a trajectory, like I had to learn what else How else does this spiritual sexual expression show itself? Like maybe there are ways where it’s just not between two people having this amazing sex right during one of these journeys that that I was following. I ended up in it

In the Netherlands, at this workshop, and a Tantra teacher was teaching it, and it was the first time they saw some in that workshop was the first time I saw an entire group get to this ecstatic state when I was fortunate enough to be able to film it. And they were going through these states without genital stimulation, they’re just doing the exercises, and the person leading the workshop was very masterful doing so. And when I saw it, from my background, it scared the shit out of me. Because possessed. Yeah, I’m sorry, they probably look possessed. Yes, exactly.

Like the whole room was demon possessed, and like, gyrating and raving, and I thought for sure. Like, oh, my goodness, is this are these exorcisms? What is it this? Is this what it actually is. And without context, I can see how my religious upbringing can label that label it as something. And by only seeing it as that thing I can miss out on so much more. That’s probably there. Oh, right. Right.

And one of the things I saw there, which baffled me was,

it was this one was a man, it was a man who is undergoing this constant orgastic state. And he was in it in the middle of the workshop. And even when the workshop closed, he was still in it. So the workshop leaders stayed with him. And he was literally in it for about two hours just in this constant state of gyrating and laughing and giggling and we were all talking about it and talking with them. And it just redefined our undisturbed sexuality. And that was those are, those are some distinctions that I never got from my upbringing in church. Yeah, it’s absolutely remarkable. It’s amazing what context does, right?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I really don’t know what to say about that. I’m just,

I’m just, I’m just still shocked. I still have this energetic, this emotional energy, of seeing sexuality in a new context, and it still has me blown away. And to me, that’s God. That’s what happens when you see God, he passes by she passes by whoever you receive God, and, and the supernatural happens and your reality shifts? What about that description is not like coming to Jesus. It’s the same thing to me. It’s remarkable.

Well, it also has me think about mental health, and how we define mental health and thinking about when one culture what’s considered someone could be a shaman. And then in an North American culture, someone is diagnosed as psychotic, right or schizophrenic in terms of receiving information in different ways. And, you know, it makes me curious, I don’t know, I’ve never read the Bible. I know very little about religion, but it makes me think about people who were considered saints or prophets, and perhaps visions and connections to God and this fine line between like, you know, spiritual vision and enlightenment, or psychotic or psychotic, you know, psychotic states, or healers, you know, the state of being healer.

Yeah, yeah. And another question for you, from your perspective. What was it like for you, when your context of sexuality shifted, from having no boundaries to disciplining it and discovering more? Well, I will say, you know, I had, I was a pretty sexual kid. And I think because there was such an appropriateness in my home. I mean, sexualized and with myself, not necessarily, with other people, I would say a lot of inappropriate things. I even had a male friend, as a teenager say to me, Why does everything have to be a sexual innuendo with you, and that really shook me and I kind of had me be more conscious, I didn’t even realize how, what was coming out of my mouth, because it was just what was happening at home. So inappropriate, I actually had very rigid boundaries in a certain way and had a real sexual aversion. Until my mid 20s, I felt very unsafe, being sexual, I pretty much didn’t have a sexual encounter without dissociating until my or rather, like my early 20s. And then through somatic work, I started to develop them body boundaries. And as I started to feel safer inside myself, that was when my sexuality could really come online, and there was more permission for it. I think that when there’s a history of certain kinds of trauma, there needs to be you need to have safety inside yourself. And you have to trust that that your nose will be respected. So that your your yes can be genuine and authentic.

Yeah, right. So then, once I started to feel safe inside myself, it was like, oh, you know, I give an example. I was in a chicken group. And I felt probably it’s like the height of mice. My sense of safety. I was in this group with men was all men and me and we would do kind of martial arts based practices and Qigong together, and I remember once being on on public transport, and I could tune in I could feel other people’s energy so strongly, I could feel the guy next to me feeling me up.

And instead of being like, super threatened or freaked out, I was actually like, huh, this is this is actually okay with me like, I felt some kind of energetic consent. And then I could, you know, and then we parted ways on on the train and I got off. I could not it that was just an it was a really interesting thing. It was like, I can remember when people would be attracted to me in high school or junior high or in college, and I would make them bad for that or wrong for that, because I felt so threatened by being desired. And here, was this stranger doing this thing that maybe he’s not even conscious of? Or maybe he is.

And I was okay, because I was safe inside myself. That’s amazing. Do you? Do you think he was conscious of you being conscious of it?

Well, I could see him looking at me. I don’t know. Right? You know, I mean, I think that, that people are very unconscious of what their energy is doing. But energy follows attention.

Right? So where you put your attention, your energy goes, and if that person is sensitive enough, they’re gonna feel your attention. Yes. Right. So if they’re having a fantasy,

I mean, this is the power of the mind. Right? We really, we can really affect each other without realizing it. And we, and that’s where it’s like, okay, how conscious can we become and how intentional can we become with what we’re doing?

Yeah, I have a story related that is related to this, I’m not sure if we’ll make, we’ll make a podcast, but bring it out. I’ll share it anyway, what you describe is amazing. And

it’s just like a whole new distinction to learn and discipline yourself in play. And then just to write from and create art from, it’s just remarkable. And if I were to hear you describe this five years ago, I would be thinking, oh, yeah, whatever. You know, like, she’s just thinking this in her head. But after I made the erotic art after I experienced the Holy erotica that I made, and I follow that trajectory, one of the, one of the byproducts of that was this experience that’s very similar to what you described, I was, I was with a friend. 

And I, gosh, I’ve never really never thought I’d describe this podcast. But I, I felt, I don’t think she was feeling me up. But I just, I felt something else. It was something else there was like something there. But it was not directed at each other.

And I was sleeping on the floor. And she was in the bed. And I put my intention there. And I wanted us both to masturbate. I wanted that to happen. And it happened. It just kind of bubbled up from from then on whatever was there to begin with. It felt so like, my mind was thinking, Am I Am I violating here? Am I doing something that I shouldn’t? Like, I was very aware, what was me what was her? And I just kind of coached it up out of curiosity, you know, if, if, if it would happen, and it and it happened, gosh, this must sound really strange on the other end of the hair, because like I’m, I’m remembering events, and I’m just using words to describe this. But it was very much a conscious permission, kind of like raising the temperature up a little bit. And whether or not we’re going to acknowledge that the other person’s thinking it too. But there were no words or no sounds until like some light moaning started to happen. And then it got you started using the the lines and saying all sorts of stuff. But yeah, it was it was a really phenomenal Interplay that I would not know how to hold until I heard what you just described, that’s just said like hearing hearing. Hearing you describe that scenario, I think I would be more aware. If I were to experience that again. I’m like, Oh, I would just be out just have more awareness. Whereas before, it was just kind of, I just didn’t know it was possible. So I kept on wondering, like, is this actually happening? Are we actually having this connection apart from seeing each other because in different parts of the room, apart from talking to each other? You know, but we were connecting, and it was mutual, and it happened together? Did you speak about it afterwards? Right after? Yes. It escalated to a point where she asked me to join her out of the bed, or hop on the bed and then she snapped out of it like whoa, hold on a second. You’re like my brother. He’s not my sister, but it was because we’re friends. Oh, sure. Okay, you’re right. And I just backed off off the bed. And and then we just had a brief, brief conversation about it and went to bed.

But yeah, I disclosed that. She said that was her response was interesting. That was her response.

So so she’s so she’s, she’s masturbating on her own, and you’re masturbating. And there’s the sounds that are that are escalating, right? They’re starting, and there’s an interplay or kind of like a little orchestra of sound happening. phrases to repeat

Yeah, right, right. And so then but then being confronted with you not not a disembodied energy source and sat voice in the dark when she actually saw you. She was like, Whoa, she felt jarred and was intrigued. So, yeah, she said, you know, what are you doing on there? I’m hopping on the bed with me like, okay. And once I hopped into the bed with her, that’s when reality set in? Yeah. Well, what’s beautiful in that is that you respected that line. You know, and I did. And one of the things that I was struck by when you were talking about the story with your wife, is the way that you even phrase things, you know, you acknowledge you took responsibility for your part, and at times, pressuring her for sex, and using theological references the way the church would to justify something. And that says to me that there’s some kind of process you’ve gone through around accountability, and looking at your part, as as a man in your relationships. And I’m curious about that. I would say that when I was religious, The tragedy is that a lot of those things I would say, and of all of us have sex, those were the only things we were taught to say. So even though we may not be that same person that would want all this to come from a woman. Because that’s all we knew, it definitely sounded like that. So I’m curious. What kinds of post you know, sometimes when you’re in a situation, it’s hard to see your partner. And it’s hard to process it. I’m curious, since you’ve been divorced, and you’ve been on a healing path, which I would love to get into and talk more about, what have you seen more about your your part in the dynamic? And how did what was happening in your relationship impact your sexuality? Yes, one thing I’ve definitely noticed is that I never had the bravado like, now after marriage, I’m learning how having some masculine bravado, really helps. And even though I was in my marriage, feeling like I had all the entitlements that God had promised me, I wouldn’t. That still didn’t bring him the bravado, you know, I wasn’t bringing in my bravado, there was kind of doing a cowardly type of guilt trip of or her, it’d be sexual. And then when I got out of religion, it was just really clear without without the language of God guilt. Without all that I had nothing to engage a woman with the most I had was this kind of embodying this 14 year old type of Persona, which was asking permission all the time, like, Is this okay? Can I do this? Can I do this and that just, that wasn’t sexy, either. I had to find that and build that up. And I happen to find that in the art. Once I did this whole erotica shoot, and I saw people react to it, I started feeling confident behind the camera, I wasn’t comfortable with women yet only with only if there was a camera between me and them. And slowly that started to emerge. And it’s still merge. I’m not, you know, I’m not this Casanova guy that can just be there. 100% having something like holy erotica helps me it helps me a great deal. And it gives me a new distinctions that did not get in church. And these distinctions are helping me build that bravado and body and embody a healthy lover, and one who is fully masculine and who can be fully feminine and present and and just know that balance. And it’s, it’s still a bit shaky. I think I’m a bit more squeamish than I am. You know, yes, here I am. You know, I’d say maybe I’m like, you know, 40-60. But yeah, but it’s a process. And I’m getting there.

Thank you two things that were very interesting that you mentioned, one, this idea that God has said, you are entitled to certain things. And I have never really thought it because I’m so disconnected from religion. I hadn’t thought about that. And it has me look at the political scene, currently, like look at our country, in this really interesting way of like, Oh, my goodness, that, you know, the Christian right, and what they feel entitled to, that’s intense. Yes, very intense. And I personally think there’s a direct relation with how we teach sexuality that has now blown up into the political landscape. You’re exactly right. I mean, if you imagine a kid who says, like, Hey, you gotta give me that. Because, you know, that’s not fair. You gotta give me that, you know, it’s like, you’re speaking with authority, but you’re still coming from a childlike place. You know, it’s like authority of someone else. Not, not because you’ve grown into it. And I feel like there’s a lot of lot of men in Christianity, who, unfortunately, they’ve just, they’ve just become adults in that framework. And we’re never given the chance to embody that bravado outside of church because church keeps them inside that worldview. It keeps them inside that entitlement worldview. So I don’t want to paint them all as you know, as being you know, callous.

Since two dimensional by choice, that’s just the only distinction they’ve had. And it takes something outrageous to break them, break them outside of that. And I think for a lot of folks, it’s going to be sexual. And because there’s so much sexual trauma that’s coming out now, within this post hashtag metoo world, there’s also a love stories as come around the church as well. And as these become more normalized, I think when folks face the sexual trauma, exactly what you said before in this podcast, religious teachings can be its own sexual trauma, once folks start seeing that as sexual trauma and addressing it, I think we have a chance we have a chance for so many Christians to shift from the 2d perspective to a more embodying the bravado, a 3d five D perspective, if you will, right. You could probably articulate it better than me. No, I thought that was excellent. And I have more to say about the the bravado part, I have a story about clients. So I’m working with I was working with a couple. And I use these martial arts based practices. And so picture two people standing across the room from one another, and one person. So we’re, we’re embodying a conversation. So one person walks towards the other person with their arm extended out as if they’re going to put their hand on the other person’s chest. And that’s a metaphor for them asking the other person to be present and grounded. And listen, while they ask a question, ask for something, make some kind of request. So in the case of you and your wife, it would have been you walking towards her asking for sex, and how you do that, right? So I model something but then the way someone then does it, the exercise creates just enough stress, that whatever is habitual, whatever is habituated in that individual will reveal itself. So if someone is afraid, for instance, to make the request, or in general approaching and asking, they’re like, Oh, I feel like I don’t get to have needs, or I’m going to cause harm when I ask for what I want. When they walk in and make contact with their partner’s chest. Maybe their hand barely makes contact, or maybe only the fingertips make contact or maybe their pelvis is turned away from them versus directed directly belly to belly with their partner. Is this making sense so far? 

Yes. Okay, I was working with a couple, a heterosexual couple, and the woman has a history of sexual trauma, sexual assault. And I’d given them a homework assignment, a nightly practice to do this little exchange where for five minutes each, they get to, to ask for something and the other person gives it to them. And so they’re practicing approving of what their partner’s doing and getting specific about guiding them and giving them instructions and it could be a nonsexual thing like, like a foot massage. And so she’s she was comfortable giving but not receiving, right, that’s there’s there’s a power dynamic there. Often fatigue shows up in the just not wanting to do the exercise. And so I wanted to give her full permission to say no, right? So it’s doing an exercise that involves that was focused on consent. So really working with two hands extended out in front of the body, that’s a no two hands out to the side, standing like a Jesus statue, that’s a yes. Or two hands kind of bent, arms bent hands in, you know, in front of you. That’s a maybe.

But I really wanted her to focus on those. And so she was she was really enjoying that. And it was kind of like once she got that she gave herself permission to say no, what she doesn’t typically do it, she was very invigorated and much more engaged. So I had her standing across from her, her husband, and before her husband walked in, there’s a way that both of them have their chests kind of pulled back, their hearts are kind of pulled back away from contact versus imagine you’re standing straight, standing straight and tall. Both of them kind of slouch backwards. Does that make sense? Interesting. And and so I had him straighten up and have his head rather than gaze down have his gaze on the on the horizon.

And she was all prepared. She was like, I’m gonna you know, practicing No. And when he walked in, she automatically said maybe and her head was kind of tilted noose kind of like, flirty way. And then she’s like, Wait, actually, yes, we know where that came from.

And so then when I had him do the practice again, I was like, go back in but let the slouch happen like let and so as soon as he went back into his typical shape, that physical like kind of kind of like a little bit of cowering, a little bit of like, Is this okay apology and I would say this references back to your, you know, little boy versus standing in your masculinity. Yes. When he did that, she was like, no, like, it was like she was kind of disgusted.

And I think that this is a very common thing, that there’s this energetic exchange between people. And there’s a conflict like that, that women often want to feel safe, they want to feel safe, and they want to be taken.

Right? So how would you how would you define the taken?

What embody it?

What was he doing there that clearly worked for there was. So when you are slouching, your pelvis is tilted back your head, your neck is kicking forward, like we all do from computer use, or phone use. When we’re out of alignment, there is not a clean flow or strong flow of energy through our system, we, we intelligently stop the flow of energy by going out of alignment with ourselves, that makes it so that we can’t feel ourselves as much we feel. We’re disconnected from our own sensation and emotion, which helps us because sometimes we want to be more numb feeling can be intense. But then other people can’t feel us. And one of the things that creates turn on is polarity. And a strong energy. Like if you can feel someone’s energy in a strong way that can create more turn on.

And I think with your I’m curious, I would just put this out there that with your your ex wife, when you were holding that line firmly, you were engaging, a more masculine, if you will, if you want to put quotes around that word energy, a strong energy. And so in a way that can feel that that feels safe, but it can also be like who? Yeah, right. Yeah. So you were true, you were doing the opposite of quote, unquote, taking someone but you were providing the safety for her to, for her to potentially surrender.

Ah, yeah, it sounds really good. When When, when one person is strong, and it allows you if you’re constantly in charge of everything in control of everything to surrender, there’s a relief, right? It’s like, oh, I don’t have to be responsible for everything right now. I think for a lot of people who are grown, who grew up in the church, I think that next level, that sixth gear, to take your lover when she’s okay.

That is a distinction that we have difficulty with. Because for many of us, in purity culture, we’re taught sex is bad. Before we’re married, over and over, and over and over for us as men, to even desire sex would also be bad, even think of sexual shall be bad. So even though it’s very natural for us, as human beings to think of sex, we, we hit this trigger, which we’re taught, we’re indoctrinated with that that’s the sin. Right? And to resist this up until we’re married, what happens to a lot of men and I think this is not really spoken about, it’s like being a dog, when you have one of those leash leash, leash lists, collars. No, a dog goes beyond the fence and sends a charge, no longer on the collar and the dog goes back. So for a lot of men, when we’re taught not to have sex before marriage over and over and over, once we get married, we can either, like, go full on animal and just like, oh, this is what I’m entitled to. Because, you know, lalalalala you know, but if, if, if we don’t go there, and we take the time to stay in our bodies, and to see what happens, I think we’ll discover that there’s there’s an indoctrinated trigger that’s been planted in us that shames us and so we’re we’re forced to dissociate disassociate. And, and we may go after sex from a, from a negative place from that place of entitlement, there has been a lot of accounts of rape happening within Christian marriages. And, and these couples don’t even know what to call it, because, because they’re married, I guess it’s okay. But just because the man wants it, she feels obligated that she needs to without even listening to her own. Yes. Without the man evening listening to his own, yes, because sometimes men do this because we just, we think this is time to have it. If they take the time to slow down, they may find that they need to take it, they need to take these baby steps to, they need to know what it means to you know, to embody whatever that exchange happened between your two clients. That’s a beautiful exchange and amazing exchange. We never learned that in premarital counseling in church now, once what you’re talking about is so important, and I was actually thinking about it. And I was also I was thinking about rape inside of marriage. Right, you know, in certain in certain states that that’s not legally prosecuted bull right? It’s it’s, it’s considered like it rape can exist there. I would say in my own mother’s relationship with my head, an abusive stepfather who was sexually abusive and who was physically abusive. This was a regular occurrence, what you’re describing when they finally broke up, I mean, so there was I think, regular rape happening in that.

Relationship one incident, even of, you know, it wasn’t he didn’t get sexy enough and she had to go pick me up from from work, he literally left her for dead. Big and he never apologized because he was entitled to that. Right. And so I hadn’t made the connection. When he did he, you know, he was Christian. But when he did finally break up with my mom, he had joined that he had been reborn, he was a born again. And he called her to let her know she was a whore and that she was the reason that any bad thing that had ever happened, like what his marriage broke up or whatever. And so I always thought of that just as misogyny but I’d never made the connection between like Christian entitlement. And that’s a very interesting, thank you. So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, and there’s another there’s another side of that too, with, with the men feeling entitled, there’s the women who feel exactly what you mentioned that they’re ashamed. Being called bores are sluts or impure. So even if you’re a woman and you’re not, you’re not married yet to, to dress provocatively. Oh, yeah, it’s like, oh, you’re you are a danger to the planet. You know, it’s not that you’re looking succeed, you are a danger to humanity. And you are Pandora’s box, like the containment unit and Ghostbusters is gonna bust open all the ghosts gonna let loose. And that same shame, right happens even when you’re in your marriage, let’s say that you’re in your marriage, your Christian couple. 

And let’s say that the wife wants to try something sexy. And, you know, I want to try to film ourselves and the dot and a man can overreact to that as evil dangerous, the Pandora’s box all hell can break loose. And we don’t know how else to handle that other than the call the call our spousal for the caller slot, and, and still remain in our own our own echo chamber of entitlement. You know, while we’re shaming our, our spouse, it’s it’s a really dark, twisted dynamic, right? It’s a hall of mirrors that it’s so impossible to get out of when you’re in it. Something needs to happen to blow it open to wake both people up, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. It’s, you know, it’s an Yeah, and it’s intense when your, your left for dead. And that’s not enough to wake people up, right? You’re mentioning around the sled shaming, and the controlling of clothing. And that was a that was also one of the things it’s it’s interesting. My, my stepdad would they’d get into these fights because she decided to wear a certain thing to a party. Right? So it’s like, where that that maybe that Christian entitlement and black and white rigid thinking intersects or gives permission for domestic violence. It’s like where it intersects with misogyny is interesting to me, a lot of what you’ve described there is this very an insight of religion, there’s this very black and white thinking, right? You’re all good. You’re all bad, right? Yeah, there’s heaven. There’s hell, there’s god, there’s the devil. And, and so what I see is in, in, in healing in the process of being an integrated human, there’s gray. Right, there’s being able to operate in the gray. And it sounds like you know, you’ve been on a path of learning how to be less black and white and see into the gray. And I’m curious if there’s anything in particular, that was a significant step for you, or helper for you in moving more into the gray?

That’s a really good question. Yes, I was taught to see things black and white, and gray was scary. And it wasn’t until I stepped off the black and white that I started to experience some new stuff, but going into the gray is, is overwhelming, scary and terrifying. And I needed to follow something to navigate through. So what helped for me was and I went through this whole experience before landing on this conclusion bumps gonna go right to the conclusion, it was a pleasure. I learned that if I follow pleasure, new experience, I It helps me go into the gray. Because for us as Christians, pleasure is so synonymous to sin. We don’t even know how to hold it. You know, sometimes we can experience pleasure in church worshiping, and we sometimes hold ourselves down. Because pleasure even though it’s in church is like whoa, hold on. Right. 

So once I did the whole erotica, and I left my faith and I had my own reconciliation of faith. But in this time in the gray left my faith falling pleasure helped me to reconcile with it like I found that pleasure was a scary thing and I needed I needed to look back into my biblical metaphors, I look back into the Garden of Eden. And I remembered Oh, yeah, the Garden of Eden was called the Garden of Delights. It was a place of pleasure. And that’s where we started to enjoy all the pleasure. Well, what happened according to that story, Adam and Eve, they, they took a bite of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And then there was consequences sin and everything became black and white. Right.

But before that pleasure was exposed to be experienced, and so I needed that story. I needed to remember that story and think, oh, yeah, there was a time where pleasure was not sin. In fact, it was given to us. And as I continue to follow pleasure to do things for my pleasure, I was afraid that was going to look like Oh, I’m gonna have lots of orgies. I’m gonna have lots of drugs, I’m gonna go murder people, because that gives me a thrill. Like, I thought it would go to all these dark versions of pleasures. And I realized, these are the frameworks I learned in church, like pleasure doesn’t have to look like that. Pleasure, it can just be stopping and smelling the flowers and allowing all the ecstasy from that pure moment to go in and maybe like you, it does result to a body orgasm. And, and then I can hold it and I don’t have to call it an exorcism. Right? Right. But that has been the thing that that has helped me is just to, to go after pleasure. And to understand that there’s a discipline and an ethic, behind embracing pleasure. There’s a whole new world of it, there’s almost like a whole new religion to discover, when pleasure becomes intentional. That’s the trajectory I’ve been on sense. And I just have to be reminded that, you know, when God you know, if you’re a believer in God, why did God create us? Right? I mean, did He create us to follow rules? Or are we God’s the light, and is God our delight,

you know, and that just changes the whole narrative. And the black and white goes away, and the gray is no longer scary, beautiful. Thank you. You know, just yesterday, I wrote to a friend, I was texting him where he’s a writer as well. And I was saying to him, like, I fell in love a couple times this morning. And I once was making my blueberry persimmon coconut milk smoothie, and once was washing my rice and making it. And these simple things that can bring us so much pleasure was like the shade of purple of my smoothie, the feeling of washing the rice, being grateful for the water that I had to even wash the rice in, you know, that I think, for me, once you start to feel safe in the world, and have and live inside your body, and you feel connected to yourself, and then you feel connected to other people and the rest of the world. There’s so much since pleasurable sensation in simply existing. And in all these small moments, right, it’s so it doesn’t have to be, you know, turned on, we can think of it as purely sexual but turned on can be, I am feeling all the energy in my body, and it feels really good. And I actually don’t feel so afraid of my sensations that I can enjoy it. Yes, to acknowledge that it’s just so refreshing to hear these things, and how pleasure can be found in the simple moments. And, as a Christian, how we were taught to experience God was not your pleasure, but through suffering, right, Christians are supposed to suffer. And so we we find God in the toil of staring into marriage that may not be serving us, you find God in the toil of going against the grain and, and, you know, I guess, starving our bodies for certain things for the name of God. So we hear that rhetoric, often hearing God and tiny moments, it does happen. We do hear that in church, but it’s just not as often, you know. And when you phrase it that way, like hearing God and the tiny moments, the way that I saw, I wasn’t comfortable with the word God until I was probably 30. And I started going to this non denominational church, that, you know, it’s like rabbis would go to then, you know, Buddhists would go to and it was really about the it was the singing that drew me in and it was there was, there was a meditation. It was metaphysical. There was a metaphysics. It was a metaphysical basis, the word God, once I felt comfortable with the word God, I started thinking of like, well, what does God mean? And for me, it’s about that is that is that internal voice? It’s that it’s your deep intuition. So for me, when I think of God, I’m thinking of peoples, it’s a quiet internal voice that you don’t have access to unless you’re still enough and you make space and time for it. The other thing that you said that was really interesting to me when you’re thinking you’re talking about pleasure, and how you know, you weren’t supposed to in church, you weren’t even you weren’t supposed to feel pleasure, even if it would start to arise while you’re praying. They’re supposed to clamp it down.

And it made me think of Pentecostal churches. Yeah, right. And so that when people they’re like writhing in the pleasure of like feeling the Lord’s spirit and they’re moving in their bodies are moving the same way that I have experienced during whole body orgasm. Right? So so that that there’s that same it’s pretty much it’s just energy, its energy moving through your system, right? I’ve experienced it through meditation. I’ve experienced it in sexual scenarios, if you let it move through you so I’m curious what most you know, Christian, there’s so many different sects, right? Not sex as an SCCT. Not sex, how they perceive Pentecostal churches. 

Yeah, and if it’s like, oh, no, those are the those you know, Holy Rollers, they’re kind of evil. And you know, they do snake charming and they do all this naughty stuff. I’m so glad you said that. Because it’s true. I was I was born and raised Southern Baptists are like, the conservative the of the conservative and, you know, we don’t partner dancing is considered to sin. No booze. It was, like, I thought they were weird. I thought there’s like, oh, I don’t know what’s going on there. As a Christian, you’re learning about the different fruits, the spirits, I’m going to speaking in tongues as a gift to the administration. You know, in in all these various things. Speaking in tongues is also considered one of these things that you either have or you don’t it’s the spirit jumps on you. Then humbler? Shambhala. And then during the day, it just happens. Same thing with that’s how I interpreted Pentecostalism. It just the spirit jumps on you just start dancing doesn’t happen to me. Maybe it’s emotionalism. I don’t know, I just kind of kept it further away.

When I went to that Tantra workshop out in the Netherlands, when I saw all the moving around and gyrating, I did I was scared because I thought it was like exorcisms. But then I remembered all that Pentecostalism stuff, I’m like, wait a minute. This is what those folks do. And, and all of a sudden, that distinction gave me comfort and context that God is here. And so thank you for mentioning that. Because that that took me full circle. So now my belief of those of those Pentecostals is that they do have a chance to celebrate an aliveness and that body energy that a lot of conservative churches do not have a chance to do and I really admire them for that I really admire how they’ve built that into their their doctrine, and to have been a part of some churches though, like they kind of expect you to speak in tongues. And if you don’t, don’t do that, then you must not have Jesus, oh, my god, the pressure, the pressure that exists in either religious communities or even sex positive communities, you better female ejaculate.

Really, I just pressures. And so I just don’t know this one? Well, I think that there’s that there are situations where when I worked at good vibrations, it’s like, there’s there are a lot of men who may not care whether their partners orgasming. But then there’s just as many who have so much pressure on their partners to have orgasms and then have certain kinds of orgasms, when it’s Jesus, you know, that’s when that happens. I read it in the Cosmo in the cosmos test that the sheets were wet, I should propose it’s just so funny that no matter what you know, that there’s whatever community you’re in, there can be this external pressure, that that’s going to show like this is a sign that you are deeply religious and connected to the Lord or this is a sign that you are super sexually liberated, or this is a sign that you’re a good lover, and how everyone’s looking for proof and external validation, in these different ways in seemingly opposing communities.

Very true, very true. And I, I think an interesting thing there to point out, is in in Christian culture, and church culture, we don’t have a lot of uniqueness. In regards to our artists, if you look, if you think about Christian music, there is a genre there that has been repeating since the 80s, or the 70s, you know, are in there’s there’s not a lot of artistic uniqueness that explodes there. And I think that’s one of the traits of when you don’t want to get down this tangent. But when you don’t have this sexual liveness, if you if you when you get there, you just start to show things, you just start breaking from the mold and uniqueness comes alive. This whole section may not land anywhere, but anyway, I’ll just end that one there.

I don’t think that made any sense in expressing your understanding and recognizing your your prior judgment of Pentecostal people. What I appreciated about that was, you know, even thinking about my stepfather who I would say was definitely a sociopath. But still having this compassion looking thinking about him and thinking about what he grew up inside of like the the rigid stereotype, expectations he lived within within the Latin community, like there was a certain width that he was raised with. And then also the rigidity of a Christian household. And and that what happens with that black and white thinking and that rigidity is fear, right, the fear of the unknown and fear of being out of control and needing to have power.

And, you know, absolutely never justified to beat somebody or try to kill them. Terror heat. And there was some part of me that was just feeling in being able to hang out in the gray and go, Wow, someone has to be pretty terrified and unsafe in the world inside that their own rigid beliefs that they would act out in that way.

Yeah, yeah. I would, I would agree with that the, when we’re not given the  other options, of, of holding these things. And the consequence of that is Heaven or Hell, yeah, we it’s, it’s, it’s very limiting. It’s very limiting it. It’s so. And this goes back generations and generations and generations. So we’re no longer perceptive of it as being, you know, a bit being a narrow worldview. Exactly. You, right? It’s the water, yes, women.

I have a client who wasn’t raised with religion, but But it’s, there’s a certain kind of deprivation, that she lives with restriction around, she has to earn food, even that, like anything, she has to she has to earn it. And if she hasn’t worked hard enough, then she deprives herself of it. And when I asked, you know, start asking questions about religion, and of course, like her, her father had come from a religious household. And so it’s important to remember that there doesn’t have to be something that’s even in our immediate vicinity, or conscious and conscious in our environment, that it’s, it’s not being spoken, but it’s it just, it’s what our ancestors have marinated in and then did, it’s diffused. Right, like, like you diffuse oil. And so you, you know, don’t Nestle see the source, but the smell was in the space. I feel like that’s the way religion can work. And the way it was taught us was that we’re all sinners, and we’ve all short the glory of God. And so I think that many of us, the, whenever we do anything for ourselves, it’s considered sinful, because we’re kind of putting ourselves over God. And that’s a very, very difficult thing to unlearn. A lot of us, if we grew up in the church, we don’t have a lot of, we don’t have a lot of faith in our own goodness, as a result of that, you know, to, to do something out, you know, outside of the mold, because we believe it isn’t enough. It needs to be God approved. You know, and, and I think that’s very limiting. I think it’s very limiting. And I think it makes us codependent on something and we we just can’t reach our full potential. When we’re told that deep down inside or sin, you know, it’s a sad thing. And I think what you’re saying can be related to anybody, even outside of a religious situation where when any kid is told, You’re bad, right, you’re whatever way, then that’s what you grow into. Right? You don’t know that there’s a potential difference. Like, I’m thinking of a friend at school where a teacher is constantly shaming the kid publicly telling them that they’re stupid, or they’re this or they’re that if you if you get that in your learning environments or in your family, it’s hard to know that something else is possible for you.

Right?

Very true. Was that your case? Also, I think that a lot of negative messages were like, they were internal. But for me, it’s telling voice telling yourself that? Well, like, you know, for me, I think most of my restriction was just it was that I had so little capacity to be with the sensations in my own in my body. So just any kind of increase in sensation would cause a panic attack, or cause terror. And so more than conscious thinking, it was and I think maybe over time, I became conscious of the thoughts connected, but even being told I love you or you’re beautiful, even positive things would cause me to panic. Oh, because I just was so afraid. I was just I lived in a state of dis ease and lack of safety.

Right? You can have that related to something that has nothing to do with sexuality. But what I’m thinking is that it still impacts sexuality. Yes. And it’s not limited to to being raised in church or raised with God like it happens that there are some things

that are particular to growing up in a fundamentalist household or community. And then there’s a lot that’s universal. I’m curious if you can speak more to if you had to say, you know, like, five more or less things that you have done that have helped you move through and process sexual shame.

Yes, let’s see if things I’ve done helped me process sexual shame was a good way. One big thing, which was hard for me to do was to allow my fantasies a place to let them give them permission to exist and not just to exist but to teach me thing growing up Christian fantasies were aberration of God’s desire for you. And so just the thought of fantasies just just made it hard. And then when you got married, how much of a fantasies, okay, what if I wanted to threesome? Well, that’s outside of your marriage, and this, everything, just kind of, it’s messy.

So that was one thing. And I learned that by by giving my fantasies, place some of those fantasies, I was able to experience and that’s, that’s a beautiful thing. And that’s also very frightening thing. Another thing I had to do, that helped me is I, I sought stories of other people who are going through similar things. And because I’m a documentary filmmaker, I have an advantage. I can just say, Hey, I used to do shows for History Channel and discovery. I’m like, like to do an interview on you. And the people just show up, right? So I have an advantage there. So I took my camera, and I returned to my church roots. And I just interviewed with my with my best buddy, we worked together on this one, we interviewed a bunch of theologians and authors and and horrible gospel stars, folks that we looked up to 20 years ago, that have changed their story now. And I heard so many stories of brokenness, of sexual confusion, and also heard some beautiful stories of how they’re making it right for themselves.

Or other people who aren’t documentary filmmakers, I think it’s just worthwhile to pursue those stories, whether it’s reading books about them, listening to podcasts, like this, or, or, or just going out and having coffee and asking people that really helped me finding those other stories. And other thing that helped me outside from the fantasies and the stories was,

art was really important for me. And I think, art, not everyone has to do art, but what their version of art is. And what I really appreciated about this art was like it gave me a place to safely fully express my sexuality, or some it may be writing, or maybe it’s music writing. But if you just are poem, if you just pour your sexuality into a poem, or your sexuality into a film, into a painting, having a safe space, right could be fully sexually expressed. That also really helped me and I didn’t have to worry about finding the right partner to do this, I could embody my sexual self some way.

So the story’s finding the finding fantasies, or is the art or the three so far, a fourth thing that helped me this, this is a separate thing, apart from hearing stories, or adding to share, Brian to share the story is another level of healing that I’m still learning about. I mean, even being invited to this turn, I’m very grateful for because you’re giving me an opportunity to share my story. And, and it’s scary, and I used to be at church camp Pastor, I used to pull out, you know, these all sermons last minute and talk for 15 minutes effortlessly. But I find with this, I started to babble and I was stuttering. And for those were into the church, you know, Moses stuttered a lot, and he didn’t feel like he was qualified. And for those very reasons, I felt like my stories did not have a place and I’m learning that they do.

So, fantasies, story lists, hearing people’s stories, calling your story, having art. And the fifth thing is an NDE. I think this would apply to people who are in a relationship or outside of relationship, it’s reconnecting with people. And this can be with your spouse, even though you guys are ice cold. If you guys are ice cold, what I’m finding is that there’s so much sexual energy that happens, even though you’re not having sex with someone or if you’re not seeing if you’re not seeing them on a sexual context. And it just comes, it just comes out and just feeling normal and in my own body when I’m having coffee with them. If I’m being honest and sharing with my thoughts, just being just being fully present, I guess that’s what I’m really saying. Learning to be fully present, not just alone, but with someone else. That’s that’s a whole new panic attack that happens and it’s scary. It takes a lot of navigation and I’ve learned that there are a few people who

I can help people that I’m doing this exercise with them, you know, like, we’re going out to coffee, and I will tell them listen, I’m just working on being present here today. So how are you doing, I have to tell you how I’m doing, and just enjoying this for what it is. And that’s all I can handle. Like, those steps, whatever, however deep and you gotta go, like, I need that person on person interaction. And so those things have helped me a great deal. Allowing fantasies and allowing fantasies to have a place during the stories, sharing my stories, having art to express myself sexually, even though it’s not literally sexually, and interacting with people, again, in a non sexual manner. And sometimes maybe it is sexual, you know, maybe I’m asking someone out on a date, and that I go through that chaos, but actively doing those things. It kept me connected here on this planet and engaging with other people, and myself in a healthy way to help me find my way through. That’s awesome. Thank you so much. One of the things I think is really important inside of that fantastic list, is you’re saying you felt like you could fully sexually self express through the creation of art. Right. And I think that and also it didn’t have to include another person. And I think that sometimes people skip over that part of how do I be safely, sexually self expressed on my own, and they pressure themselves to jump right into how do I do this with another person?

And it’s really hard when you’re starting that process of learning how to do this, and you’re in a partnership, because you don’t actually know I see couples, and then how do they get to take the space to go slow, and learn how to crawl before they walk? And looks like you’re gonna say something? Go ahead? Well, I just think that I’m, I’m fully beside myself, because that sounds so true. And I’ve never heard that in my, my involvement with church, or I never tried that in my marriage. Like, why not slow down and take the time to make an erotic poem? Before you’re erotically with your partner? Never thought of that. That makes perfect sense. Right? I had a client who had a really hard time being verbal with her husband, right to saying what she wants or complimenting him sexually, like when they’re in bed.

And like, Okay, well, first of all, take it out, if you can to slow something down and take it out of the context of sex. Right? Put it in ordinary daily life, and how often is this person comfortable complimenting a stranger being like, I like your pants?

You know, so taking it first, taking it out of the most intensely charged relationship, you know, we were talking before about, you know, bodying, that bravado, being able to embody that Bravo, bravado, even in paying a compliment. That’s so many steps there to try these things in. It’s really remarkable. Well, to complete that little piece that what the, you know, the exercise is like, Okay, if you’re not comfortable talking dirty, if you can’t pay someone a compliment at work, how are you going to tell your husband, that is caucus beautiful, right. So it’s like slowly easing your way into the waters that you know, that that stuff is a very beautiful thing here, you know, like slowing down and telling your partners your cogs beautiful. That’s I don’t think I included this in the list of the first five things that really helped me. But one of the things I did was being a part of a men’s group in which we gave our space ourselves the space to look at each other’s Cox. And we complimented them nice. Yeah. And it was unexpected. And it felt damn good. I’m like, Wow, thank you very much. I’ve that’s never happened to me, never doesn’t even happen in grade school. You know, like, you know, 12 year olds or teenagers aren’t going to naturally have that discipline to ease that defining moment. I think that’s, I think it’s a beautiful thing. I mean, what you’re pointing to that there’s, I think, three there can be a culture of circle jerks, right? Do you know about this? Because you’ve all participated in them? I’m sure. No, I haven’t. I know what they are. Yeah. So that if you don’t know what a circle jerk is a group of guys masturbating together.

And so it’s kind of like something like that could be considered culturally okay. Because it’s like, oh, yeah, it’s about my pleasure. It’s not about us being together and acknowledging each other’s beautiful bodies.

Right, or like and still being, quote, unquote, a heterosexual man, I’m down to try circle jerk and I’m curious if compliments are part of, well, if you should ever want to participate in a circle jerk. I can hook you up the next time you’re in town. I know this guy.

A guy who leads these groups. And yeah, I can share more about that.

Interesting. I know that you’re working on a docu series. Is there any thing else that you want to say about that? When I started that those interviews in Nashville and in the Bible Belt, and I was trying to get an understanding of my own church roots, I use that footage, and I packaged it together as a sizzle reel. And we’re currently trying to sell that as a show. Right now like a docu series that dives deep into who evangelicals are. In we are examining them regards to sex, race, Hauer and privilege. And, and so that’s, of course, if that actually sells and then great. We can talk more about it. But right now, it’s this kind of an early stage. And I am also working on some more films in the genre of holy erotica.

I just don’t really know what they look like yet, you know, every experience is brand new. And I discover myself in each of these films also. So finding a place for these art films and and framing it, that’s still something I’m learning to do. And those are the projects that that are, are happening right now. And so I think it’s also indicative to what happens when you when you reconnect to your sexuality, I think your scope of your worldview of religion, I think it opens. And I think there’s so many new possibilities that can happen. And I’m seeing that reflect in my my art project. Absolutely. One of the things I appreciate about you, and that in the in the short time that I’ve known you is it feels like the shorts that you’ve created, are you creating your own spiritual path and alternative spiritual path and all they reflect that yet they could because they happen, it sounds like spontaneously like they organically occur. It’s not that you have this idea, and then you you make it happen. It’s that these opportunities present themselves just like someone would have a one night stand, so to speak. And they’re because they’re open spiritually or sexually to occur and an experience you find yourself in these encounters. And that’s really interesting to me. Yeah, yeah, thank you, I that’s the only way I know how to do it at the moment. And it probably, it probably fulfills the dating life I’m not having these encounters. But I also found that as someone who is in development, and who does work in TV, it’s very easy to get an idea, develop it and just move in with some line energy. And just like, let’s just get this dawns, and just will your way through it. And I’ve, that did not work in my marriage. And because it did not work in my marriage. My natural approach with this is just not do it like that. And maybe there are other ways to go about it. But this is, this is the one that I’ve chosen, and it’s worked so far. And each experience has been deeply healing to me and to everyone who’s involved in even those who see it so far. So I think, what a follow on this path until until otherwise, well, it’s it’s also a pleasure practice. I remember in our first conversation that we had, you were like, I want to you know, I want to create things, that it’s where it’s fun, and it’s in flow. And I hear those words in my head, if I ever feel like overwhelmed or stressed about what I should be doing around this podcast, I, I hear your I hear those words. And I’m grateful for that. Because it allows for synchronicities to happen. And it allows for where you’re supposed to go. Like I feel like we were supposed to meet man, I’m excited for collaboration in the future. And that wouldn’t arise if I was like, I’m sorry, I do not have time to talk to a stranger, I have to log my podcast out, you know, like that, that in that it’s for me that’s it’s a sexually open and a spiritually open space to be in to allow for synchronicities and allow for this idea of, I’m only gonna engage in projects if I enjoy them. And if I, you know, like do it in its own time rather than force something. I’m so glad you said that. Well, it’s everything in the full circle. You’re exactly right. I’m because I work in TV. And I do edit documentaries for a living working on those things, you know, for a living and developing shows and having them meet the standards of executives and demographics and everything. It’s suck the joy and pleasure out of it. It’s just changed into work. And even if I don’t enjoy it, we have to suffer and torture ourselves to just muscle through it. And when I started to follow this directory of pleasure, I did not expect that it would take me to editing and filmmaking again because it kind of sucked the life out of me and knowing that it has and it’s going down this specific trajectory. You’re You’re absolutely right. It’s a pleasure version of everything that’s allowing this stuff to happen and it’s teaching me I’m going in clueless

You know, I’m, I’m not assuming that there’s going to be a premise here that’s going to articulate every step into pleasure is informed me of something new. It’s changed the way I view God, it’s changed the way I’ve viewed sex. And, and I’m not even sure how much more will change. I just know that the rabbit hole goes deeper and I’m following into it.

Beautiful.

Is there? Is there anything you want to say about the podcast that you started?

Oh, yeah, so much podcast is a podcast that my best buddy from college and I started. And it really, it hit us both at a time when we needed it. Basically, we both can say that we’re in midlife crisis age. And when I divorced, and I never had kids, and I, I I disassociated myself from the church, in my mid 20s. He stayed in the church is still married, and he does have kids. But we both have the same struggle. So we thought it would be good to start a podcast talking about the same struggle from these two different perspectives. And, and by creating that show, that podcast show that kind of gave us the vehicle to go into Nashville and to explore our own church roots. And it was just as cathartic for him as it was for me. And that’s called Touch podcast conversations of spirit and body. And we focused mainly on theologians, psychiatrist authors, the who’s who, in Christian world. And it’s been a very healing process that that I’m very fortunate to have that would love other people to have to. So what I’m doing is assembling those bytes. And I’m going to make them available on Instagram, or Instagram documentary called purity. And it’s kind of an extension of touch podcasts that we’re experimenting with. The goal is just to make these bytes available for people so that they can be a part of the conversation and know that we’re all in it together in church, just as we sexually traumatized each other together, which is kind of tragic. The beauty of that is we heal together. And the fact that we’re in community through all these experiences is an amazing thing, that a lot of people who aren’t in church don’t have the luxury of having, I think they have to strive harder to find that community or or lock themselves into it. Whereas for us, we were raised with that distinction. It worked before, and we can do it again. And I think that’s pretty empowering. That’s awesome. Thank you so much, Nathan, I love talking to you. And I feel like we could just talk for hours. Do you want to let us know what your website is? Should people want to see your shorts, and what your Instagram handle is? Thank you very much. I forgot to mention that the film that we’re promoting right now is called Cosmic touch, you can go to cosmic touch film.com.

And there you can see the latest short that that I finished with my colleague, Lillian Claire love. And there is a discussion guide there that helps people watch the film, there’s examples of how to have a small group screening. And there’s also links to our personal sites there too. And so you can you can find us there.

So we’ve covered some hard topics. And some of you may find yourself dissociating, while others may not even know what dissociation is.

Remember, dissociation isn’t inherently bad, it’s actually a very useful tool. You just want to have choice as to when it happens, and how you use it and how you bring yourself back. Some people dissociate by going up and out the top of their heads. Other people tuck down deep into their guts. This lets them avoid feeling something that they consciously or unconsciously don’t want to feel assigned for me when I was a kid is I would fix my eyes on a specific point, I would look at a specific pattern on the rug and everything else would get fuzzed out. You may find that your mind goes blank, you feel like you’re in a fog. It’s hard to think or process what someone’s saying to you. Your body might feel numb or sleepy.

I’ll get into dissociation in more detail in later episodes. For now, here’s an exercise to help pull you back from a dissociative state. First, go ahead and place your feet on the floor if they’re not already there.

And you can press put your attention in your feet and press to the edges of your feet. And notice what happens in your legs. Hold hold, hold, hold, hold, and then go ahead and release.

And notice if you feel anything different in your legs, take a breath. Imagine you can inhale and exhale through your feet. So as you inhale and exhale, the breath is moving through your legs.

And atrophied and go ahead and press again press, press, press, press, press, press, press, press, and release. And go ahead and you can do the same thing for sitting in a chair, can take your elbows and you can press against the back of your chair couch, press my back just cracked and release. And notice, do you feel anything different in your back?

Okay, so go ahead and do it again, press your elbows against the back of your chair, couch, press, press, press, press, press, and you’re breathing and let it go.

So what we’re doing is we’re we’re wanting to see, can you feel the edges of your body?

Right, so sometimes we need something to press against maybe a contact with your own hands or somebody else’s hand on your body that can send you further away, or it can bring you back. Alright, so contact with an inanimate object. Sometimes having something like a heavy blanket can be comforting. Having a pet lay on, you can be comforting and bring you back into your body. Another thing you want to focus on is your breath. Okay, you can put your hands on your belly, and take a deep breath into your hands and feeling the rise and fall of your belly. Notice where your eyes are. So if they’re fixed, if they’re staring at something hard, or they’re zoning out, and you’re not actually registering what’s in front of your eyes, you can feel space here.

So let your eyes move around the room. And notice the colors and say the colors out loud. There might be blue, orange, red, see if there’s a certain object that you feel compelled to look at. And notice the detail in that object. Remind yourself of the date, what day is it, you can even say to yourself, you know, I’m 23 years old, I’m not eight years old anymore. And this is the date. These are some things that you can try if you find yourself in a moment of feeling less than present than you want to be.

And the other thing is just to remember that sometimes it’s actually a beautiful permission to grant yourself to go further away.

It’s not always about coming more present, you can ask yourself, Hey, do I want to be more present? Or do I want to go further away? How far maybe 10% more? Go ahead, let yourself go. And maybe you even set an alarm clock. I’m so old school an egg timer. You can set an alarm on your phone and let yourself go away for two minutes. And then bring yourself back.

I’m Charna Caselle, you’ve been listening to laid open. You can learn more about trauma informed sex therapy at my website passionate life.org where you can also sign up for my newsletter and get access to exercises from each episode. I’d love to hear from you. Email your stories and questions to laid open podcast@gmail.com And I’d love for you to follow this podcast on Instagram at laid open podcast.